Tuesday, November 5, 2013

Advance Warning


This post is my replies to two reader emails. The first one was to "Victory", one day after my Gold as a FOREX Currency post went up. And the second one was to "Burningfiat" on Friday.

Hello Victory,
"... My thinking is this, won't the end of $ support be clearly visible in the currency exchange rate? Isn't that where the rubber meets the road, there really should be no guesswork needed. The US is a perpetual net exporter of dollars and has long ago hyper-inflated…"
There is definitely a glut of dollars right now. In September the Fed announced its new "reverse-repo" operations. There is, of course, a lot of debate about what those are really about, but I think it is obvious that they are to mop up the glut of dollars and raise short term interest rates in money markets and t-bills. The Fed even said so. They said that these operations will raise overnight rates in the money markets so that lenders can actually earn some interest.

When there's a glut of dollars, it's hard for banks (who create dollars) or money markets (who auction existing dollars) to make money on interest because there's so much competition for the limited pool of borrowers. Too many dollars drives interest rates to zero and even negative in some cases. So the Fed is actually competing against real organic borrowers for its own liabilities. The Fed will pay you to lend your extra dollars back to the Fed, even though what the Fed is "borrowing" are its own liabilities. So the Fed is creating synthetic demand for its own product to drive overnight and short term interest rates higher.

You're looking for a crash in the USDX to indicate the imminent end, but I have always expected a spike in the dollar, and I think Another expected that as well. I have written in the past that we could even see the USDX spike (very quickly mind you, not a slow rise) to something like 150.

What we see right now is big money piling into short duration, even overnight, assets. To escape, that money will have to pass though dollars once again. Where the rubber meets the road, in my opinion, is not anywhere inside the monetary plane. Instead, it is where the monetary plane intersects the physical plane, and that is in prices, the prices of real physical things, the price of physical gold and the price of (primarily imported) necessities. That's where I expect to see the break, in one of those two places: the LBMA or a real price jump in necessities. Whichever one comes first, I think it will quickly cause the second one to follow.

What that means, practically, is that either physical gold goes into hiding first, or there's a sudden devaluation of the dollar against the physical plane, meaning necessities, especially those necessities needed by the USG which must be imported. When that happens, the USG will print whatever is needed to keep its imported necessities flowing in under the aegis of national defense. Actual hyperinflation will follow.

When this happens, or a top level disruption within the LBMA, all that money piled into short duration assets will panic out and bid for dollars which it needs in order to pile into anything else. This will briefly drive the dollar way up on the USDX. It may even happen before you know what's happening, because big money tends to panic before small money even knows there's something to panic about. Remember this story from Unambiguous Wealth 2?

"Compare these big money folks to the average guy who rides the bus. You miss a bus, so what? It's inconvenient but another bus will come. It takes a long time to sink in that another bus isn't coming. It's not until there is such a big crowd waiting at the bus stop for the next bus that people start thinking "even if a bus comes there are too many people to fit on one bus." In that mindset the surest way to cause a riot is to send one bus i.e., not enough buses. You have to fight to get to the front of the queue. This is a bank run mentality.

And this is a key difference between the average guy and the big money. Big money isn't used to being kept waiting. Big money owns the "bus company". They know the buses aren't going to run before the little guy. They panic early. There was an electronic bank run around the time of the Lehman collapse. That was one of the reasons why governments around the world stepped in with fresh deposit guarantees. But there were no lines outside the banks to alert the average guy to what the Giants were up to.

Right now gold is $1,712 per ounce. If you have $200,000 in ambiguous claims floating through system-space, your account is right now worth 116 one-ounce gold coins of unambiguous wealth. But here's the thing. You are never going to beat the big money to that panic button. There are enough gold coins on the market right now that you could get your 116 of them without affecting the price. But if you're waiting for the first signs of panic, you're not going to get anywhere near 116. You'll be lucky to get six or seven.

There's only one way to beat the Giants to the gold, and that is to run in front of them."
Apply this reasoning to the signals you are watching. Even though you aren't waiting to buy gold coins at the last minute, you are still looking for signs that systemic transition is imminent. So what you want to look for are signs that big money is panicking, not the signs that you think will cause big money to panic. Because chances are that the really big money will see those signs before you do, and panic before you even know they are there. Therefore, signs that you think should be making big money panic, when it's not panicking, are probably the wrong signs. See?

In the comments section, it often seems like the Freegold holy grail is to be able to predict the proximate cause, and therefore get some advance warning, and therefore be the first to make a correct timing call on Freegold, even if it's only by days. But if you follow my reasoning, then it is most likely a waste of time trying to gain some advance warning. The advance warning is in the logic, and in the A/FOA archives. And the holy grail is simply buying physical gold now, before it happens. That alone will make anyone look like a genius in hindsight.

Some people look for rising short term interest rates as a sign of systemic stress, while others look for rates to fall to zero or below. Some look for a falling DX while others look for a spike. That's all monetary plane stuff, and not where the rubber truly meets the road. As I said, the Fed is trying to levitate short term rates right now, so why would rising rates indicate stress? To me they indicate that the Fed has sufficient control over the monetary plane, which I kind of assumed it did. What it has no control over is where the monetary plane intersects the physical plane.

"So my question is really this, until we see the $ drop rapidly on the FX market don't we know that official support from someone besides the USG is still in full effect. And the corollary that FG will not be imminent until this support is withdrawn, which we would see immediately in the FX market as a $ devaluation?"
We could see a sudden drop in the USD versus other currencies in the FX market, or we could see a spike. But I think we will eventually see some sudden, unexpected and highly unusual volatility. That's what I would watch for if you're one who likes to watch the pot, waiting for the water to boil. Watch for unusual and extreme volatility, because that should be what we see when the monetary plane comes unhinged from the physical plane. And don't forget the concept that there can be a head-fake right before a phase transition, a sudden and major move in an unexpected direction.

For me, I already have the advance warning in the logic and the A/FOA archives. I try not to watch the pot, but instead to explain the logic to others, because I think that's better than trying to predict how the monetary plane markets will behave at that moment when the physical plane lets go.

Sincerely,
FOFOA

Hi FOFOA,

Hope all is well!

Do you have an opinion of the latest strange GLD inventory update behaviour?

Could it be a sign of rumblings further down in the machine room? Or do you really think it's all just meaningless pot watching? :)

/BF

Hello BF,

I certainly think it is interesting, but the short-term variations we see don't change my opinion of what is happening behind the scenes. I think the consistent drain this year is a sign of rumblings further down in the machine room, but I find it hard to believe that the reporting anomalies are reverberations from the same thing that is causing the drain. More likely, I think, there is probably some explanation for the reporting anomalies that we just don't know about, something that we haven't even considered.

The indisputable story is that GLD has lost 36% of its inventory, 487 tonnes in 10 ½ months. Title to that gold was transferred to someone. The only question that matters is whether it was transferred into BB reserves (the plenitude view) or into private ownership (my view, and obviously the correct view ;). That's more than 46 tonnes per month.

The BBs probably have at least twice that much coming in through mining and scrap (just a guess), so let's imagine they have 100 tonnes coming in each month. The outflow is obviously higher than the inflow, but the pressure is widely distributed across the LBMA. So the rumblings in the machine room are widely distributed and therefore isolated from what we see in the reservoir drain reporting. GLD is where the buck stops, where they obtain that shortfall of incoming gold, but it is not likely going to a specific buyer. More likely, it is simply restocking the subterranean stream.

The point is, I wouldn't expect the underlying cause of the drain to transfer "short term vibrations" into the daily reporting of the drain, I only expect it to show up in the greater trend. Therefore I think it is more likely that there must be a more mundane explanation for the reporting anomalies that we see, something we simply don't know about and therefore haven't even considered. That's the way I apply Occam's razor to a situation like this.

I expect the short-term machinations of the system to appear outwardly normal right up until the moment the pistons seize up and the whole machine comes to a grinding halt. That's the way these things usually seem to end. So I expect that could happen at any moment, without visible warning signs. In hindsight, I think we'll realize that OBA was right, it was just a hair's breadth away. But watching the pot can make even a hair's breadth feel like an eternity from the watcher's perspective.

So yes, it's interesting, but Occam's razor tells me that we are most likely watching the effects of some mundane cause we are not aware of while "superstitiously" trying to attribute those effects to the greater cause which is clearly obvious in the long-term trend. That's fine, and it is human nature to do so, but at what cost? The cost is that a hair's breadth starts feeling like an eternity, and some people can't handle that feeling and end up throwing in the towel.

Have you noticed how many people that have only been following my blog for a year or so eventually start making emotion-based predictions that Freegold must be 5, 10, or 20 years away? I have been at this for more than five years, and I still have the same view I had in 2008, that it could happen at any moment and each moment that passes brings us one moment closer. In fact, I think it must be almost here right now! And I think the reason I am able to maintain that view is that I have never been a pot watcher. I have always paid more attention to FOA's logic and the long-term trend than to the short-term vibrations.

The long-term trend is that the commodity bull/dollar bear market ended more than a year ago, even though dollar inflation *policy* is firmly in place. Shortly after that, the GLD drain began. And shortly after that, support for "foreign dollar settlement with CB storage" reversed and began declining. This is very close to what FOA said in one of his last posts: "The game is to let the US economy suffer from its own bloated expansion by moving slowly away from supporting foreign dollar settlement with CB storage. This is more than enough to end the dollar's timeline as we are already stretched to the leverage limit. They know that [the Fed] has but one policy to use and that will be super printing."

Anyway, keep up the great work with your auto-pot-watching app! I do enjoy the short-term show, even if I don't put much stock in it. ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA


882 comments:

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Delusional Investing said...

RT Bitcoin Overview

Anonymous said...

The fact that China reversed its "tapering" in September and bought substantial amounts of Treasuries (see link below), is that a big deal? If they're starting to mop up the sewage leak of excess dollars again, does that mean that they want to prolong the system for another few years? I mean - their Treasury buying was exactly what kept the $IMFS alive after 2001, wasn't it?
Major Foreign Holders Of Treasury Securities

Anonymous said...

While the absolute number of bit coins may be fixed; the number of possible bit coin clones is infinite.

michael3c2000 said...

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/treasury-forced-issue-1t-new-debt-first-6-weeks-fy14

Woland said...

Hi Borjesson;

Remember China runs a $300 billion per year trade surplus
with the US, or about $25 billion per month, but peaking in
the Sept. thru December months, and then falling back ex
Holiday season. Until it gets spent or invested, it's got to
go somewhere.

Franco said...

Börjesson:

I saw that, too. But here is another way to look at it. This is from the same data:

http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/pages/jl2220.ASPX

It shows that while foreigners were net buyers of USD-based debt in September of 2013, if you split it between private and "official", private bought $78B, while official sold $15B. Now, I'm not sure how private entities purchase US debt (or why), and I guess it contributes to supporting the USD system, but I don't think it counts as "structural" support. Structural support is provided by central banks. So, until somebody convinces me otherwise, I think the process of withdrawing structural support by foreign central banks continues, at least up until September.

Anonymous said...

athrone,

I do not answer questions posed by an ass. Or trolls for that matter. Move along now and troll somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

Oh noes! The hedge funds are fleeing (paper) gold!
http://www.finalternatives.com/node/25334

Edwardo said...

FWIW, the technical condition of paper gold appears highly vulnerable to another smash. On a weekly chart the 50 day EMA sits a mere three dollars above the 200 day EMA. In short, ye olde death cross looms and when it occurs it will trigger more selling from the usual suspects. In the meantime, paper gold is bouncing along the lower trend line of the big flag. A test of the mid summer lows beckons, though the onset of said test is moving at a snail's pace.

Franco said...

The $15B in US long-term securities sold by foreign central banks in September 2013 is the largest amount sold within the 24 months that I looked at.

The Dow Theorist said...

Good analysis Edwardo. I'll add that the primary trend for paper gold is bearish.

Anand Srivastava said...

I am imagining a world where 100,000Euro is the max that an account can hold, safely. How are mid to large businesses going to be safe in such a world?

AG banks will gain the trust slowly, and then it will be more or less safe to hold your money in banks.

But lets imagine the world before Freegold, ie the present world. We do know that ECB is going to do stress testing between feb and june.

Lets imagine a large bank fails and with that a number of businesses lose their operating capital. What will the rest do?

Will Euro be a safe MoE for mid to large enterprises?

Yeah it could if you keep all the money as cash in your office safe.

Will people be forced to use something else, possibly BTCs?

Any ideas how this problem could be handled in the increasingly online world.

DP said...

How about ESM bonds, backed by the full faith and credit of Euroland? (But but but the euro will never be printed to make bondholders whole!!)

Or allocated gold. (But but but, that will not be nominally stable!!)

Roacheforque said...

The thoughts of a nation blowing in the wind do seem subject to much volatility, and since all things are denominated in these thoughts (manic mini booms and busts like BTC and China 5 yr IRS) a great opportunity to profit upon the fastest run to front the wind makes for a tenacious "wealth preservation system".

But it is all mirage. What savers truly desire, what we all here truly desire ... is stability. A foundation upon which a stable reality of solid valuations and real world stasis rests.

We are always truly on a "gold standard" of sorts, in this context.

Thus speaketh the flow-er ...

KnallGold said...

Bitcoin: made it into the MSM here, yeah how can one short BTC ;-) I've heard they'll make a BTC ETF, lol.

Certainly it makes a nice experiment to watch in regards to flations and monetary behaviour. BTC is in deflation, the money is going up in price. Why should I sell it if its rising in value? Evil hoarding prevails.

Now what would happen if confidence gets hit by whatever reasons? Could it go straight into hyperinflation? This then would happen without a shortage of Bitcoins. I see there's a difference if a currency is being abandoned altogether or still remains a medium of exchange.

The other scenario would be an increase in Bitcoin supply, aka inflation. Hyperinflation is not just high inflation - yet, the loss of confidence can also come from inflation, here because it went against the initial promise. Interesting to watch...

Woland said...

or how about "commercial paper" ( as in the current money
market funds) which are just portfolios of said paper. The
soundest corporations will still borrow via issuing their own
securities in a post transition world. Why would their smaller
cousins, without the capacity to issue, not buy them?
{;<)>>

DASK said...

The major problem with bitcoin as I see it (other than rampant scamming and exchange shutdowns) is apparent when you draw a box for the bitcoin ecosystem and then try and balance physical and monetary flows in and out of it. Or as our host has already gone over, it is the conflict between its MOE and SOV functions. Not so different from gold, but FOFOAs bitcoin article has the critical differences.

Other currencies can only come in via gateways, and the gateways can only allow currencies to flow out up to this number, minus their operating costs. All monetization must flow through this channel. Goods can be shipped into the ecosystem, but also must withdraw currencies in the amount equal to their costs that cannot be redeemed 'in system'. You can buy gold with bitcoin, but the gold sellers must use fiat to purchase the gold... redeeming against most physical goods is therefore also equivalent to cash leaving the system. The exceptions may be design services etc, but the fully internal economies are tiny, and even if they got big, 'the rubber meets the road' where people need to cash out to eat, or at the very least, to pay tax. Miners must cash out to buy new equipment, etc, and this represents a slow drain that can only be balanced by people putting money into the system.

With this view in mind, the flow of goods into the system (which represents currency out) + the amount 'cashed out' <= the cash in.

The only force sustaining the bitcoin price are people translating cash to a bitcoin balance that they intend to hold. Lets imagine some other 'services' of bitcoin.. payment transmission -> both buy and sell currency in equal amounts, almost neutral (minus fees) in terms of balance holding. Even payment transmission would be impossible cost effectively with current volatility. People say that Amazon may take bitcoins (yeah right..) .. but their margins are about 1% -> 99% would immediately be converted to cash (and the 1% too most likely unless Amazon wanted to hold a BTC balance). Purchasing from Amazon therefore is no different from selling BTC. Same for most other prospective merchants. Even mining, because of the cost of hardware, represents a slow necessary cash out of 3600 BTC/day minus their margins that they intend to hold as BTC balances. This cost is increasing with time, and will, by design. Now

How then to redeem the current 'market capitalization' of the system? To redeem your balance in the physical plane, someone must trade cash for a BTC balance they intend to hold. Without this, the value cannot be maintained and its MOE function cannot be realized. Without the MOE function, the miners will eventually not get paid, and the belief in the future of it will vanish. Without the belief in its future there is no reason to hold it as an SOV.

What then is different to gold? 1) Gold is the reserve asset of other currency issuers. 2) Gold doesn't take energy or hardware to maintain once produced (one less leak). 3) the scale and granularity of the distributed 'gateway' system. 4) Strong hands of primary gold holders 5) Cultural memory 6) 5 orders of magnitude in net gateway liquidity. 7) Gold has no physical competition.

Sorry for the long post, and BTC may yet go way higher, but I concur with FOFOA's 0 price target and think we will see a lot of people hurt on the way. They have to blow a bubble big enough to cash out.

DASK said...

And some more reading for those interested in bitcoin:
http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf

A paper from some serious crypto/computer scientists (shamir, ron) where they analyze the structure of bitcoin ownership, demonstrate that large initial sums are being hidden and moved to look like market activity and conclude that it looks like an organized fraud.

Ken_C said...

As for me....if you can't hold it you don't own it.

How do you physically hold a bitcoin? It might be ok for some short term transactions but I don't see any reason to own them myself. For those of you that decide to go that route I hope that it works out for you.

said...

With gold looking like it is on its way to making new relative lows, these levels should start making many gold miners go bankrupt. It will be interesting to watch unfold.

Indenture said...

ECB policy makers would reduce the rate for commercial lenders who park excess cash at the bank to minus 0.1 percent from zero

Anonymous said...

I thought miners and scrap are the marginal source..
The Chinese and few others want and up to this point have the stated goal and means - yet stop/reversal possible anytime (e.g. domestic turmoil) to continue vaccuming a couple of thousand tons p.a., it's simply impossible to say without insider knowledge (and cooked public data) which western governments have already folded and dishorded on the altar of greater good (BIS, "protecting western way of life" and/or other stupidity), perhaps some from the club will be even called for the first time in this question to act against their best interest on furthering higher orders. They can even attempt to twist the arms of the vatican vaults, recall the recent and unprecedented Draghi audience with the pope. It can take another 2-4yrs of even more surreal limbo to move world closer to the zone. And then right in the zone what, FG proceeding like a clockwork at last? Not so soon, it could flip into real global deflationary hell hole, i.e. paper and some industrials dropping like a rock, spice hanging there around $700-900. Sorry, you can't flip world order on a dime and with assured outcome on top of it, likely it will be a blick from history rear view mirror but a protracted slump on the human being time ground level. Lets stick with person of somewhat sound predicting record, JGRickards sais ramp up of QE next year and modest reval to roughly $7K or alternatively (bit less probable) deflationary ditch, all before 2020. Full FG is certainly a nice theoretical concept but not compatible with human experience, in particular enslavement of one by another for the luster of power and greed, and he who believes J6P will be allowed to participate in the top of multi-tier reserves market to access real pricing, I've got some nice bridges and subs on sale now.

said...

Miner production is marginal to physical stock, but not physical flow.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, that's again a theory, simply we don't know as to wheather China et al are sucking predominantely from some dishording westerners already in lite panic or from the global mining sector. We don't know even the fricking ratio, it could be only very small fraction of the flow coming from the miners in the end. Which would be very chilling state of affairs indeed, because that either means capitulation and playing for very short term positioning with the high likelyhood of screwing domestic stackers-windfallers as soons as possible. Or another explanation being as not for the first time in history taking someone (chinese and russians) for a big ride.. In either case there are likely few aces left for the big boys around the table, we certainly don't know about or we are too civilized to consider and speak of as our direct predicament for the near future.

Indenture said...

Total Bitcoins in Circulation
Maximum: 25 million

Archer said...

Sorry, that's again a theory, simply we don't know as to wheather China et al are sucking predominantely from some dishording westerners already

You should be sorry, McSpew, for habitually throwing stones in that ugly glass house in which you reside. Your entire, incessant, doomer oeuvre- the irreversible collapse of civilization- is entirely theoretical. It rests on a host of correlations that may, in fact, be nothing more than the result of a well past its sell by date international and financial monetary system, and not, as you and your tiresome ilk would have it, on some half baked notion that the Dark Ages II has arrived.

In the mean time, the idea that dis-hoarding westerners could come even close to satisfying eastern demand is pretty fucking stupid. Westerners don't have physical, they have paper. And those that do have physical, have it in amounts that wouldn't begin to satisfy the east's appetite for any substantial amount of time.

As for taking the Russians and Chinese for a ride, wow, every time I think you've outdone yourself in the stupid department you open up an even bigger wing in your own idiotic department store.The Russians and The Chinese are net producers, the U.S. is not. That means they will be calling the tune going forward. That means they decide what the wealth reserve asset will be. And there is ample evidence that if one is listening, and not possessing a tin ear, that they are already well past warming up their instruments for the performance of the the "Old World" Symphony.

Bright aurum said...

Short quiz:
Can anyone point to two consecutive FOFOA posts that are completely troll free in their comment section?
Who funds the trolls?

Bright aurum said...

@ Archer
You write quite like another poster ribbed in name and in language as well.

Archer said...

You write quite like another poster ribbed in name and in language as well.

Well, I'm honored, whoever he is.

Bright aurum said...

Hehehe

Anonymous said...

Hm, so if we boil your classic venom filled non response into single line, you still can't provide reliable answer where is the source for that chinese yearly phyz. suction effect coming from (apart from fraction based of domestic and int. mining operations).. and how long it can last in this elevated volume, months, years?

And how do you define/obfuscate the term substantial time? I say more 2-4yrs easy, it has been supposedly ripe anytime since 2008/9 and somehow western dishording towards the East still continues or even accelerates as of late 2013.

Net producers, have you ever been to Russia?
Peaking net producer (Russia) and long distance raw material importer -waste trinket- slave workforce re-processor (China) are going to rule the world now into the future? Well, possible tail risk scenario (short/midterm if at all) but certainly not guranteed outcome in any reality based discourse.

Bright aurum said...

@ mcmagicfly
West and East are not sharply distinguishable. There are those countries, peoples, entities in between that could have supplied the additional gold. When horses fight asses are getting kicked.

Anonymous said...

Bright aurum> In other words you subscripe to the notion that aprox./roughly 15% gov. stash and 85% in private interest hands? And the latter "larger" group has been instrumental helping to increase oz. per capita in the East?

Well, the hell why I'm here labeled as the doomer though, lol?

Bright aurum said...

Losers will always sell their gold or not obtain any. So stop being one.

Archer said...

Non response? Hardly, McTwat.

1.)you still can't provide reliable answer where is the source for that chinese yearly phyz. suction effect coming from (apart from fraction based of domestic and int. mining operations)..

2.)We don't know even the fricking ratio, it could be only very small fraction of the flow coming from the miners in the end.

You have a choice here, McSpew, you can either retract the more or less explicit request for hard data contained in the first quote or you can disavow your assertion in the second. Selective applications of what you take to be facts will get you nowhere.


Have you ever been to Russia?

No, and I haven't been to Saturn either, but, fortunately, one doesn't have to visit either place to have some reliable information about both.

Peaking net producer (Russia)

There you go with more groundless assertions.

No go work on your written communication (non) skills, because your pigeon English is working very hard against your best efforts at reality based discourse.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the advice, perhaps I'll give it a consideration in due time, given the likelyhood of another pog unhinge, "dip" around -35% sometime next year (deflamonster leaving its undersea cage)..

Anonymous said...

Shalegas UPI pumper> peaking all liquids; natural gas; shale and... first learn the basics and perhaps only then return back some day again..

Bright aurum said...

Physical gold is the key and the secret to ANOTHER way
Do you have it? Go and get you some.

MatrixSentry said...

Thanks for the advice, perhaps I'll give it a consideration in due time, given the likelyhood of another pog unhinge, "dip" around -35% sometime next year (deflamonster leaving its undersea cage)..

From your lips to God's ears.

said...

Silver <$20? Buying opp! Lunar dragons or snakes is the only question.

Phat Repat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Phat Repat said...

Yes, let's look to Russia and China as to what's next. I'm sure the West will be happy to embrace those ideologies of corruption, pollution, and social distortions. I especially appreciate the viewpoints of those who have never set foot in either of those countries.

As to the price corrections in Au/Ag; most welcome. Amazing we can still purchase at these prices (and they will go lower from here; have to wonder when the supply pinch occurs). The ratio will likely head lower as well giving those with Ag an opportunity to make a nice swap; if so inclined.

Edited sentence structure.

said...

GTU discount now at 7.7%. Never seen it so large.

http://gold-trust.com/asset_value.htm

gull_mann said...

Will FG be able to be implemented before SHTF? At this point I'm not sure which option is more likely; (1) some organized FG/new monetary system being worked out and ready to be implemented or (2) everything falls apart at the seams with who knows what being the first shoe to drop.

ein anderer said...

In Europe Gold has dropped last night significantly under the psychological threshold of 1'000 €. We remember FOFOA: The international money system can not stand neither a price too low nor a price too high. Is 995 € to low? Think so – but what think others?

Phat Repat said...

Yeah, quite interesting. Interest rates appear to be ramping. Hmmm... So, let's see, if interest rates go up, home prices go...?

Dr. Boer said...

@Anderer: Euro price hovers around 1000 already quite some time; is now dipping seriously below 1000. Very uncomfortable indeed. An authoritative source recommended "wait until 5 January" and "don't be scared". I walk by that light.

Anonymous said...

gull_mann> your question points at the hearth ot the problem, given the numerous delayes and tricks tried and evaluated even as we speak (Draghi on negative rates today/yesterday) up to this point, nobody wants to go there, they are dragged by deteoriating events to the gate of new crossing of history. They are scared, the continuation of relatively solid model of extracting wealth from sheeple refined in past say 200yrs has to change in systemic nature, while obviously keeping the masters at the helm. As always not an easy feat to pull off. Now, people bet on the outcome of this match, where FG/RPG is one direction of the bet, you decide. I maintain it's highly unpredictable, especially for the people not in the club, there is no protection. But on the positive note, the fireworks will be massive that's for sure, enjoy the spectacle, observe the stage, share with your grandkids later if given the chance.

Anonymous said...

From Bloomberg:
"The People’s Bank of China said the country does not benefit any more from increases in its foreign-currency holdings, adding to signs policy makers will rein in dollar purchases that limit the yuan’s appreciation. "
PBOC Says No Longer in China’s Interest to Increase Reserves

I guess this suggests that the increase in September was just a temporary blip, and the flat or slightly downward trend that started this spring will continue...

gull_mann said...

@mcmagicfly I have to agree with you. Things have been interesting for many years now. Seems like each year in the past things could have fallen apart and/or FG initiated. Even now, it seems like the events/bad news keep coming one after another after another. Rapid fire almost. Not sure I know if that points to FG coming, or just the rapid degradation of this current financial system and that we are looking at SHTF in the near future. I'm not smart enough to tease that out. But either way, I will still hold onto my metals.

Anonymous said...

Negative interest rates?..........let’s see, what is the effective interest rate for an account holders in Cyprus? That is among those not tipped off in advance.

Coming soon to bail-in bank near you.

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/daniel-amerman/did-an-obscure-imf-document-start-a-global-bail-in-revolution

All assets held within the system are subject to theft by the system at ‘any’ time.

Anonymous said...

Another nice touch for today, Ukraine (ehm Putin) said definitive no to further pre-membership negotiations with the EU. As we know from recent history "hostile market takeover" of Eastern Europe was significant boost for the western industrial and agriculatural capacity output. So, they would have to scrap some rosy plans for Borg expansion to Ukraine today as well, hah.

Jeff said...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/20/money-trading-economy-foreign-exchange-markets-economy

FOA: Now look back to shore and watch the world traders kick ankle deep water in each other's faces over the daily movements of Euros. From here, up to our necks in blue water, you ask "What the hell are they doing?" I'll tell you. They are trying to make $.50 on a million dollar play! Mostly because they are seeing the chess game one move at a time. (smile) Truly, their real wealth is in long term jeopardy.

Roacheforque said...

McFly,
I am not so sure this relatively solid way of extracting wealth from sheople will change much AG, although the location of said target sheople will have changed from West to East, and in this process the shifting of value from "iredeemable promises" as a focal point wealth reserve to (again) gold simply allows said extraction to continue under newly evolving terms.

All is as planned. All is well with Giants. This has been done many times before.

But the little people who hold gold through this, will be rewarded for their character.

Or so I have been thinking lately, though I could be wrong ... and yet the flower concurs.

One Bad Adder said...

$IRX looks again to be rolling over ...admittedly a bit girly-man currently but I'd be expecting something akin to the Aug '13 pattern to emerge here.
Very little MSM commentary devoted to the short - long IR spread however it is IMHO where the Rubber / Road meet.
Let's watch!

Anonymous said...

Roacheforque> I hope you are aware of the nuances how targeted sheeple of the East are treated now and into the future, e.g. China vs. India. The former shows signs of cooperation or profit sharing deal with the Borg, while the latter falls into the camp of just inferior treatment. Now, similar divisions are visible across and within other continents, including EU. The likelyhood that the particular country of residence of me/you would end up as the "exceptional case" of capital controls, bailins, overtaxation and other schemes to punish "little people" on the way to and/or after FG/RPG is certainly not zero. Perhaps what I'm after is to dispute universal application of the reset parameters across the globe, from historical perspective that never happened and likely never will, doesn't matter what advanced ver. of the Borg is running the show at that particular time frame.

Roacheforque said...

Wherever wealth flows, so flows the target of wealth extraction. Yes, cultural differences do apply. Wherever thoughts can be made to "blow in the wind" opportunities to betray confidence blossom. Wherever the rich are envied for their "effortless means to build wealth" so do they effortlessly build wealth through envy alone.

This process is older than the dirt beneath my feet, made from the decaying bones of my ancestors. The methods in their construct will always evolve, but the "haves" will always have from the "have nots" in this fashion as long as human nature prevails.

The truly enlightened among the little people, are content with nwealth that transcends money: family, firndships, loyalty and honor. These forms of wealth cannot be corrupted.

These forms of wealth your "borg" cannot profit from. These forms of wealth THEY envy.

A thought to ponder beyond gold.

Roacheforque said...

Yes, debt will fail, and yes the currencies WILL burn, only to be gloriously reborn as FIAT redefined.
Another's old world perspective was so different a paradigm than the inverted thinking of decades of conditioning ... had he partaken of the flower of understanding, he might have explained it that way.
The key to this understanding: "gold denominates currencies". Today this understanding has been inverted to "currencies denominate gold" - that is the illusion which offers the opportunity of equal footing ... for a time ... then after, all will understand that to DENOMINATE Fiat is truly the role of gold.

Woland said...

Nice find, Jeff! A whiff of sanity from the heart of the labyrinth. {;<)>>

Roacheforque said...

I think it is not just the FX trade that is "all mud and no brick". In fact:
" ...it is volatility, the booms and busts of "thoughts blowing in the wind" that concede reason to the front runner, and provide a profitable (yet of course inherently unstable) foundation for the IMF$. Our financial reality is a literal carry trade fueled by volatility."

Roacheforque said...

Should have added:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-22/overnight-carry-continues-push-risk-new-highs.

Have a great weekend!

Anonymous said...

I didn't know this till I read this morning's Naked Capitalism, but the recently released minutes for the 10/29-10/30 Fed meeting indicate that the temporary dollar and foreign currency swap lines that had been put in place between central banks on a temporary basis during the financial crisis have just been turned into standing arrangements. Adminstered, btw, by the NY Fed, who also runs market operations. Article here:
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2013/11/fed-minutes-reveal-a-dangerous-power-grab-by-new-york-fed/

Step by step the CBs are creating, institutionalizing and normalizing the tools they need for foaming the runway for the coming paper and currency implosion, without any government permission or oversight, and the ability to unleash these tools sua sponte without need for any government permission or action. There'll be no need to go to Congress this time.

Things like this remind me of just how horrendous the coming s**tstorm must be going to be.

Jeff said...

Congress expects and demands that the printing happen.

FOA: "They will not be pushing on a string; rather picking up the ball of twine and throwing it!"

FOFOA: What do you think Congress will do if the Fed refuses to monetize Congress' $10 Trillion debt issuance just to keep G functioning? Do you think they'll just give up, shut down the federal government, go home and say "to hell with it"? Or do you think Congress might vote the power of money creation back to the Treasury instead of shutting down the federal government? This is the sudden death suicide the Fed will face if it doesn't print for the federal government. And if it doesn't, the Treasury will anyway, so better the Fed do it, Bernanke will think.

...

The USDX is a measure of dollar exchanges with other currencies that happen on the open market. The Fed can counteract a rise in open market dollar demand by providing a supply of dollars directly to banks within its own sub-system, or indirectly to foreign banks through swaps with other CB's. Last year the Fed had a lot of practice doing this fast. I am sure the contractual transaction with the foreign CB's took several hours and included recording video teleconferences in which the agreements were legally bound. But now that they have experience doing this in a crisis, next time it will probably be almost instantaneous.

[...]

The next crisis, if it is mainly in the US financial system, will likely not spike the dollar because the Fed has total control and flexibility within its own system. If it is spread throughout the world it may spike as foreign banks bid up dollars on the exchange, but the Fed is now more experienced than it was a year ago and will likely put a lid on it very quickly.

But this next dollar shock will probably be irreversible, unlike the last. And in such, it will increase the global supply of dollar monetary base by a large percent. Perhaps by 100% or more. This alone will devalue the dollar and be the cause of the next shock which will require a similar response by the Fed, perhaps increasing the base by another 50% as China and others dump the last of their bonds onto the open market in a highly one-sided transaction sending the value of the bonds to zero, US interest rates to something so high they are non-existent, and the purchasing power of the dollar down into the stinky, Zimbabwe dirt.

Sam said...

Some thoughts for the weekend.

As we sit today the weakest hands (gold miners) are supplying the strongest hands (Giants) with physical gold month after month. Many see growing evidence that demand for physical gold is greater than fresh mine and scrap supply. In a market dominated by physical gold and fundamentals price and price alone could correct this imbalance. However the spot price of gold today is completely determined by a huge paper market. Originally designed to be a side show and just give traders exposure to the price of gold it grew and grew into the monster it is today. So now the gold price is completely unhinged from but utterly dependent on a functioning physical market. A market where those that want to sell and those that want to buy physical gold can do so at advertised prices.

98% of mining companies are cash flow negative at $1320 an ounce according to a study by Citigroup in September 2013.
https://ir.citi.com/8aSfIAl2aEC6BIcGNyvrjZ9LnveNg8pNOgmLYGa4PPP6+VVtga3rQDwI8emqRB8lI5IOKS9ZU90=

Today we sit at $1243 an ounce and falling and the costs of mining are only going up and the quality of output is only going down. See a problem? With a broken price discovery system and no structural support (or motivation) to save the paper gold market, or mining companies, its not crazy to predict even lower prices in the future. This will ultimately cause a break in the physical flow and bring down the paper gold markets as a whole.

If you aren't doing anything next week I suggest you buy some physical gold.

Sam said...

the link I posted seems to be encrypted and I don't know how to "un"encrypt it. For those interested in the Citigroup Inc. research study on gold mining all-in costs go to this link below. From there I think it is the first link within the article that will send you to the source material.

http://www.ibtimes.com/gold-miners-face-high-hurdle-production-costs-top-spot-prices-many-1412778

Edwardo said...

Nice posts, Sam.

Phat Repat said...

Sam
I don't disagree with what you write, but one could say that is just Goldbuggery with cries of manipulation, not unlike that which 'could' be said of many other markets. Is that really the explanation? Or have miners been hedging and consequently are able to continue to supply the market even as prices go below that which doesn't make sense? I dunno about next week, but I'm always buying physical. I am short paper, however. ;-)

JC said...


Dan Norcini: $pog weak and falling and speculators in mass selling, bullion banks on the paper gold buy side to prevent too much GLD depletion? Sucks to be a gold bug right now, but a great time to be a PGA.

"In other words, the biggest speculators on the planet are selling gold, and selling lots of it.
. . . . . .
The number of bulls continues to fall as more and more investors/traders flee the precious metals sector in favor of high yields in equities.
. . . . . .
With those kinds of gains, who needs gold is the new trading adage.
. . . . . .
The complacency in the system is nothing short of astonishing. There isn't a care in the world in the minds of most investors/traders!
. . . . . .
How much does one want to bet that it will be one of the bullion banks, namely JP Morgan on the BUY SIDE as a heavy stopper for their House Account? Hedge fund selling is being met with bullion bank buying"
http://traderdannorcini.blogspot.ca/2013/11/gold-squeaks-out-only-meager-bounce.html

michael3c2000 said...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-22/china-to-start-gold-swaps-trading-to-further-liberalize-market.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UZkG66AtQ [Is China Taking Over the World?]

michael3c2000 said...

Jim Sinclair on freegold, free markets etc:
http://www.jsmineset.com/2013/11/22/my-mission-on-our-behalf/
New audio interview with written transcript- JS updated his analysis and chronology, IMHO moving closer to FOFOA:
http://www.jsmineset.com/2013/11/23/ask-the-expert-jim-sinclair-november-2013/

michael3c2000 said...

The full transcript can be found here: http://www.sprottmoney.com/news/ask-the-expert-jim-sinclair-november-2013

michael3c2000 said...

http://sirratatap.com/2013/11/22/11-22-13-23-countries-begin-setting-up-swap-lines-to-bypass-dollar/

michael3c2000 said...

China Extends Air-Defence Perimeter - Nov 23
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25062525

BaronSilverBaron said...

Bitcoins.
I've read the past articles about Bitcoins here on this site.
At the moment there is a lot of hype about Bitcoins all over the alternative and mainstream media.
I'm fairly ignorant about them so perhaps someone can enlighten me.
My arithmetic is possibly wrong but here goes:-

10 billion ounces of Gold 10,000,000,000?

How many Bitcoins 20,000,000 max?

So potentially that means:-

10,000 ounces of Gold for every Bitcoin

Which will make a Bitcoin today worth $12,000,000

At $55,000 an ounce each Bitcoin is worth $55.000,000.

Something is completely nuts here (possibly my arithmetic)

When does the point of diminishing returns arrive?
What I mean is:- When is a Bitcoin un-buyable by the average person?

tEON said...

Golden Gossip: Jim Sinclair humbly posts "My Mission On Our Behalf" (he's so good to us!) - fortunately his current uptick in posting has nothing to do with his Tanzanian Royalty Exploration reaching 5-year lows... I wonder how his future desperation will manifest itself? In other news, James Turk retires as GoldMoney Chairman without a word of regret that his consistent $POG predictions have been the 180 degree the reverse of reality - costing myopic, short term, investors fortunes of dollar-denominated profits. My favorite being his prediction of Silver to $70 in 3 weeks after it was rising to the mid-high $40's. It's below $20. He should write a book "How to Lose Money in the Silver Market". Moving on. After a brief Summer hiatus, continued FG puzzle pieces (GLD / SPOT declines) establish the visibility of the 'true picture' of where we are headed while the rest of the Financial West is seemingly oblivious yet anxious about the, Wiemar-duplicating, snorting Equity Bull - preparing higher DOW altitudes. Personally, I bought two RCM 1oz bars from a neighbor yesterday for SPOT - both of us secretly rubbing our hands and devilishly smiling that we got the better deal. My suspicion is that he will be correct in the short term (I relish being, initially, made the fool!)... but devastated with his decision in the longer term. Paper. Get rid of ye some (but also hold some!)

Anonymous said...

Gary> what sort of desperation projections are you talking about, he is a bug for decades, he has got his own bricks likely stored on several continents, should his mining operation or stocks portfolio go bust (or nationalized) he is still above the water by a long shot. Besides he is hired as adviser at that nascent spot exchange in Singapore. The guy will most likely end his time on this planet as far richer person than 99% of this blog visitors. Could he be at least partially called a pumper or scammer? Quite likely, but there are far worse than him (KWN) etc.

Indenture said...

Here is Sinclair explaining ‘Free (space) Gold’: ”The cost of trying to manipulate this public physical price wherein delivery must be immediately made or payment presented immediately in full makes it too expensive to manipulate the gold price on a consistent basis. The paper gold market cannot move far away from the real physical price when the real physical price is globally known. Therefore to manipulate price the tricksters will have to participate on the physical exchanges thereby increasing their cost of their operation by orders of magnitude. That huge increase in the cost of moving price at will is the beginning of the end of paper gold ruling the physical gold price. That substantial increase in the cost of operation is the beginning of the physical gold market taking the position as the true discovery mechanism for the global price of gold. It is the beginning of the end of the reign of paper gold.”

The (space) represents his lack of discussion of the collapse of the Dollar. In his (space) world the Dollar is chugging along and the price of physical gold is suddenly determined worldwide for all to see and after that moment, the Dollar is still there.

Good (spacing) trick.

Anonymous said...

?He specifically said numerous times $ will end in HI.
I'm not his spokeperson but the picking on him here is funny, well if you said he stolen the FG concept and ran with it, made some more bucks/oz., perhaps will be credited with in the future, that's all true. In any case for his advanced age quite an accomplishment.

Anand Srivastava said...

BSB:

You don't calculate something's worth by equating to something else. That will never work. You have to think about how the object will be used.

Bitcoin will never become the Central Bank Reserve. They don't hold any. They can hold large reserves of Gold. Gold will remain the central Reserve for time to come. Becoming a Central Bank Reserve requires that the value of Gold will be so much that it can absorb the Balance of Trade between countries, with the amount of gold that flows between them. Also note that the amount will actually reduce when gold is revalued. This is how the expected price of gold comes to be 55K USD(2009). This number cannot be determined in any other way.

Bitcoin cannot be a normal MoE. Its value will never be very stable, precisely because nobody is controlling its supply.

What it can be is another Store of Value item.

There are several SoVs, but only Gold is open to the masses. Bitcoin is one item that can become the SoV of the masses.

So that is one venue for Bitcoin. But that is more of an speculation.

What is more firm is that there is no other thing where money can go during the crisis. When the crisis comes, money will move to physical and SoVs. It is already moving into SoVs. Notice the high prices of fine art and rare gems, antiques. This is what is helping drive the price of Bitcoin, as it is also an SoV.

Note the past price changes in Bitcoin. It jumped during Greek Crisis, then it jumped during Cyprus Crisis. Now it is jumping because as a whole lot of people have started using it for storing their excess wealth. I would think that Chinese are not very comfortable storing all their wealth in Gold. The Gold price is going down. They don't use it for jewelry (I think, not like Indians). So they are also putting their wealth in Bitcoin (at least the tech savvy ones).

How much should Bitcoins be. I would think it must go upto a Trillion Euro after the reval to be somewhat stable. For it to have any future. I don't really believe it could achieve that. But there is a possibility.

I would expect it to reach at least 100B, possibly 1T (currently it has reached 8B) during the peak of the crisis.

But the peak crisis is not important, the important make or break time is post crisis. And it will have to be somewhat stable at that time.

tEON said...

@McFly

what sort of desperation projections are you talking about

How about self-promoting seminars across the continent at $50 a pop... ohhh, he's already done that. Selling his US home (sure, sure, he's got a good reason) How about his 'Gold will never go below $1600!' statement? Add his multi-million investment, by his own admission, in a stock that is less than 1/2 its value. If you can't put those pieces together maybe you should go back to the farm... since you've already invested in the equipment.

As for his wealth being 'above water' - how, the frig, do you know? You have no idea of his expenses or lifestyle (despite the lovely pooch-holding pictures he posts) Are you con'ed into believing that everything he does is for altruistic reasons? LOL. Are you aware of his leverage? or are you using the same misguided metric you use for everything else you spew? just guessing. If he followed his own prediction, I would not at all be surprised if this guy leveraged-up heavily and is now hurting. How bad he is hurting might be determined by how many more seminars he billboards (cause 'he loves us'), or whatever misguided, convoluted, double-speak he continues to export to his dramatically dwindling following. If we read this guy's own words correctly he has the bulk of his investment in Tanzanian Royalty - which, if you didn't get my notice, is at 5-year lows. It is my contention that 'traders' (this guys comes from traders and that is what he is - and will always be) whose wealth is cut by 65+% and have no real idea why (his understanding of FG is about equal to yours - slim to none), can get 'desperate' - how desperate? - time will tell. If you need timelines - I can't tell you that in the next 6 months if he'll be selling his kidney. But, IMO, the tragedy of 'Mr. Gold' Jim Sinclair is in its infancy.

John said...

Anand I like your summary on Bitcoin. Everyone (not here) seem to be speculating on Bitcoin becoming the new medium of exchange. Granted it does have some nice properties like the ease of transfer and no middle hands. What no one seems to understand is Bitcoin's aspect of being a SoV. And just like you state their is nothing saying that it can't take such a roll. Small or big. I think it will keep appreciating until the "reset". So depending on when this will happen we may see valuations in the 100b or even trillions. After the reset gold will have

John2shown who is king and then one can really only speculate what will happen to Bitcoin and other SoVs like fine art.

John said...

Sry for the editing mess up above. Was signing it "John2" at he bottom but my ipad screwed it up

Indenture said...

McFly: Sinclair never talks about pricing gold in new dollars. His Free (space) Gold concept is a distortion of Freegold. He has been introduced to Freegold and in my opinion he didn't like certain aspects of Freegold (like mines being 'taxed' or controlled) so he 'created' Free (space) Gold.

My criticism of Sinclair is based on his halting his understanding of Freegold to suit his personal needs. Thus he presents a half realized mutation.

Sam said...

@Phat
Another/FOA told us hedging was in fact put in place to make mines profitable while keeping the gold price right around the cost of production so as to support a strong dollar. Most of the "dumb" money taking the other side of that bet was recycled petrodollars. Hedging of course stopped in 2001 as the bull market began. Companies such as Barrick lost billions of dollars buying out hedge positions they bought right into the bull market. Truth is miners don't really know which way the price of gold is going to go but lets assume for a moment they did. Lets assume they know it is going to go down and they want to hedge. In that case we would have to assume that the people taking the other side of the hedge bet either a) don't have the foresight of the future gold price that the miners do or b) that they are willing to take a loss in currency terms in order to keep mining afloat. To take the latter position would buy time, but since I am in the camp that buying time at great expense is no longer in anyone's interest, I don't think there will be many hedging deals this time. around.

Sam said...

@Gary(nteo)

"If you can't put those pieces together maybe you should go back to the farm... since you've already invested in the equipment."

LOL!

Michael dV said...

Sam
I agree with an acronym but how about one that can be spoken in English...say...TEON (the evil one ..not). In fact lets just rebrand the poor fellow with that moniker.

burningfiat said...

Teon, Teon Goldjoy

Anonymous said...

Apples to oranges.
Get down from your virtual horse, aren't you as well on the board of some high profile spot market exchange as JS? Sorry I forgot, you are for the moment focusing on more important activity as blog commenter, ha.

Well, we will have to wait for the jury on the last laugh though. The twists of life and history are often cruel and bizzare. The best joke of them all would be history unfolding perhaps for all the "wrong" reasons roughly according to the JS scenario:

2014 first massive wave of western bailins
2014-2016 FG/RPG launched in the East
2016-2020 Borg does not surrender immediately, the last temporary fix-delay introduced, most of western stackers caged within their local on the grounds of "emergency" and/or two tier market pricing, various related national security schemes
2020-25 Borg lost its dominion at last or some say rather downgraded the plans for smaller pie than anticipated - so some of the "surviving" western stackers, i.e. tiny minority which did not have to pathetically dishord to collective during years (not months!) of uncertainity, now finally able to safely access RPG value of their stash

/give or take some years..

Indenture said...

The moment Freegold is "launched" the Dollar dies.
Much of the Borg's power dies with the old dollar.

Anonymous said...

There is always a transtion period, even during the death sequence itself, that's what is this all about given the realm of human life experience. There will be no clear cut binary magic: before and after. No new dollar from Sunday to Monday, there will be half baked steps in between leading to the moment of the next fiat currency. Perhaps only from the rearview mirror of following decades and centuries this might appear as an instant day to day flash.

Sam said...

@Michael

or how about NEO. Can stand for "Not Evil One" and he is now named after the hero from the matrix

t au said...

@ Gary (NEO)

Shame on you :)

http://mychinaconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/taking-candy-from-a-baby.jpg

michael3c2000 said...

Gary-
Why should James Turk and Jim Sinclair be judged without a hearing and condemned, for such petty "crimes" as having made common statements when the current gold bull market was rising in it's trend for about ten years, without a secular bear phase such as (we have) now- nearly everyone was asked or volunteered to offer some say in where POG would go next, what "next" was etc.
But now so many are hurt, ashamed and confused- if not bloodied by their spouses and pets[who hasn't been there] -and the Dark Ages of the gold market arrived. Even before the bears latest outnumbering of the bulls by a godzillion to a pathetic one.
Look around, Martin Armstrong, deflation, and Elliot Wave are beyond chic and too sexy and there's more badges to wear everyday.
No, NOOO, DON"T do it they say! Don't even REMIND us of gold good ole days, and boys. Das blasphemous, sacrilegious. You deserve a solemn soliloqoy of supersensitive, supermagical incantations sufficiently superstious to supplicate the witchhunters, sacrificing shamed and fear-bound scapegoats to the gods of silent somnolence and desensitivity.

Everyday simple opinions must now be prefiltered, euphemised, edited and prequalified by computer algorythms before release to family and friends, then further edited for typos and profanities before publication on blogs, newsletters, media like RT, Kitco and KWN etc.
Censorship and politically correct spin, must frame civil dialogue free of simple extremist or reactionary or unstable memes and leanings, so that any "major" contributions to the physical, mental and spiritual health and financial and social welfare, made free of charge, or by a modest fee or donation, via preapproved "alternative", "independent" media, "free internet", news, emails, phone calls, seminars($50 is not a fee- it's a small, token portion of the expense of booking a hotel conference room and it's related staff and equipment costs) statements of economic and/or market and/or banking clarity, commitment to service and like everybody else? Do you think your assay of their character, is not so presumptuous or that you are omniscient and omnipresent? How do you rationalize the much greater failing of far wealthier, more public and influential people? How do you ignore the bad calls of 99% of the PM community(sorry Jim Sinclair likes that word too) and PM advocates and "bugs" aka enthusiasts or hobbyists, and the many charismatic and prosperous spokespeople selling and/or donating services, guiding people, groups, funds and institutions into safety and solid choices, as they've done for maybe decades.
Those whose actions qualify them for derogatory labels and blanket indignation have long been known, and some larger concerns, like Kitco and JPM are under investigation and/or insolvent etc., but by and large the ones we see and hear from, unless we're on a staple diet of commercial, mainstream or popular media or news, are clearly opposed to the fraud mentality and duplicity of the wolves who harvest sheep or their enablers and complicit false fronts like the World Gold Council, the CFTC, and similar institutions, lobbies and think tanks.

Roacheforque said...

JC,
Thank God for Norcini and his ilk, or at least his contention. For a moment I was beginning to wonder if too many little people were taking gold.

Roacheforque said...

And all that idiotic buying on the other side of all that selling.

Those fools must not need money ...

Indenture said...

Sinclair: "So if you want to go and manipulate gold on the Singapore exchange and you offered three years worth of production for sale, you better be ready within three days to deliver all that gold and on the converse side, to pay for it, because the spot gold contract does not invite maintenance by cash only. It calls for the actual buying of and calls for the actual delivering of the gold or silver itself. That would be the end of the ability to move the price by using paper gold. Now, based on that game changer taking place, we move into an entire new paradigm for the price of gold and it’s in that paradigm that gold has the ability to rise above the $3500 level and seek levels as high as $50,000 or more."

In this scenario is gold correlated to anything else in the physical plane by the trading computers of the world? When gold goes to $50,000 is it in isolation or will other commodities go along for the consequential ride?

tEON said...

@michael3c2000

Firstly, if Jim and James accepted ALL the accolades throughout the decade-plus Gold Bull, shouldn't they, equally, take heat for their miserable predictions in 2013. BTW, If you want to see, pretty much, the only individual who got this heavy decline prognostication correct look to our host and his first post of this year.

Secondly, it is totally your prerogative if you want to keep buying their 'manipulation excuse' for being consistently incorrect. If it is true, and they couldn't see it's pervasiveness or ride that trend - well, you know what? - investors don't really care about excuses. You should read some of those forums where the Turks of this world, and his ilk, have convinced Joe Sixpack to sock his retirement savings into Silver at $44. Their tears are real, Michael. Yet you want to defend them as heroes for riding the PM Bull for years?!?

You can add Sprott into this mix as well. Each, frigg'in time his physical supply/demand data fails him he plays the 'manipulation card', instead of maybe, just maybe, realizing his data is irrelevant in this paper market. Let me spell it out for you; physical demand and the paper market price are mutually exclusive. But, isn't it appropriate for them that 'its hard to get someone to believe in something , when their paycheck depends on them not believing'. Sinclair, Turk and Sprott are selling you something! - admittedly Sinclair is the most subtle, but every talk he gives, every video with him in - is another advert for his Tanzanian Royalty baby. Turk and Sprott should be fully cognescente of FreeGold too - but publicly admitting that would not be good for their businesses. So either they are fools or charlatans. Your choice. Neither deserve your respect. Let's not forget Sinclair telling his following 2 years hence to buy the junior miners 'with both fists'. My God man - do you have any idea how much he has cost people?... how many will suffer because of his ignorance... or chicanery. Either way you can stop bowing at the ankles when you hear his name. He doesn't get it.

And while I am at it, Mr. michael3c2000, my advice to you is two fold; stop posting those continuous, and largely irrelevant, links, and if you even read them yourself - stop that too and cement your efforts into reading this blog by a man who promotes nothing, has no axe to grind, and is easily proven to be the smartest cookie in the jar. He gets it while the Sprotts, Turks and Sinclairs shake their collective fists at the evil banksters until their arms are tired. Actually, I'm tired of hearing their excuses. Aren't you?

michael3c2000 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeff said...

Breaking bulls

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-22/paulson-said-to-inform-clients-he-won-t-add-more-to-gold.html

michael3c2000 said...

Gary, you're a troll who doesn't believe in FOFOA, Another , FOA or those of us who supported them from the beginning at USAgold, here and elsewhere. If it wasn't for me and a handful of likeminded others who have the foresight, tenacity and maturity to withstand the wild flak and teleprompter BS of posters like you and the wicked instability of people and markets, this legacy of freegold would have beencut short long ago. Don't use your pandering, empty slogans, and cliches. Think before your worn-out baseless lies and viscious slander resembles promotion of some lurid handler and not just your ego or bored, overstimulated psyche..

michael3c2000 said...

Re: Paulson
Bloomberg spun that story the way their editors like. Paulson is always trading or diversifying.
Other blogs note he is still heavily invested and long in gold.
If so, his private holdings vs. publicly disclosed investments on behalf of the fund may never be known.
His public pronouncements around the time of major moves in gold have no more credibility than a Cramer or BLS employee.

burningfiat said...

michael3c2000, that is nonsense IMHO. Gary/teoN (emphasis on NOT) lashed out against a bunch of gold writers who doesn't "Get it" (many agree with him on that) and their predictions. So how did you get from there to "Gary, you're a troll who doesn't believe in FOFOA, Another , FOA"???

michael3c2000 said...

BF
LOL you arseclown.

Anonymous said...

michael3c2000> thanks for the dose of sanity, and since Gary attempted to white wash the recent memory, for the record Marc Faber also called the possibility of not insignificant 2013 pog plunge, and ultimatively in such advice saved me and couple friends from a lot of problems, and there were few more other warning voices as well.

The coming deflamonster is going to shake the tree in much more horryfic ways than people are even able to imagine today, the paper scam is not over yet, perhaps rolling down to the range of $650-950 in Q1-3 2014, that might be finally the enter point for "late" comers to consider.

tEON said...

@michael3c2000

If it wasn't for me... this legacy of freegold would have beencut short long ago.

and not just your ego

I'm sorry Michael, I didn't realize the interpreting of FreeGold is because of... you! I suppose we all owe you a great deal of thanks. (psssst - is this guy nuts?)

michael3c2000 said:
Gary, you're a troll who doesn't believe in FOFOA, Another , FOA

I actually said:
...the only individual who got this heavy decline prognostication correct look to our host... and
...cement your efforts into reading this blog by a man who promotes nothing, has no axe to grind, and is easily proven to be the smartest cookie in the jar.

Perhaps you have me mistaken a different 'Gary'. This is why I went to the trouble of changing my screen name. You might notice that my posts are not deleted. Also, if you read my last post (apologies is some of the words were... unconventional) - and it sounds like you didn't - you would realize, in it, I extoll FoFoA... and condemn Sinclair, Turk and Sprott. Sorry of that offends you. You sound like a simple PM Bug to me. If that is the case, this forum is not the place for you, IMO. Try Kitco or Silver Doctors etc. where your I'm sure your timehonored support of Gold will be recognized and respected admirably. Perhaps you will be rewarded with a 'title'? (he's nuts, right?)

michael3c2000 said:
Get lost and take your drugs with you...

My drugs? I'm having a wonderful Lagavulin 16-year old Scotch right now. Is that what you mean? and where should I go? I'd like to stay Michael, I'm quite comfortable right now...

Beer Holiday said...

@michael3c2000

He really is a different Gary to the one your thinking of.

PS Take it easy on the weekend. Rest and relax if you can. Some of us have to work :-(

Michael dV said...

I had a simple thought about freegold.
There are many physical gold advocates. Only freegold really compels you to buy gold. In the many hours it takes to understand more than just the $55k punchline, the reader is left with no other options. He may try to escape but so far no one has found a logical way out.

michael3c2000 said...

Step up to the bar Gary. I'm enjoying your sadomasiochistic self-indictment and far-flung inebriated voyages. I'll supply the peanuts, if you can chew even one.
BH- Check out my posts here, in the USAgold archives, in the GE archives, or any where else you can find my work. Read "and relax if you can. Some of us have to work."
Later, obfuscater....

Sam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sam said...

@mcmagicfly

Since you already admitted to never buying or owning any gold (a comment I won't forget for as long as you troll this blog by the way) you mean to tell us that in the last decade only 2013 tempted you to almost take the plunge, stop buying non-oil based farm equipment for a while, and make a gold purchase? Odd timing, you know BTFATH is just a joke at zero hedge not trading advice right? Anyway, I'm glad Marc Faber saved you and your friends.

Indenture said...

"If it wasn't for me... this legacy of freegold would have beencut short long ago."

I'm sure you didn't mean this statement the way it came across.

Anonymous said...

And this is somehow relevant for the discussion and arguments at stake, apart from haphazzardly choosing something out of context? He who takes the time to count the number of nonsence bordering and off-topic posts can make his own judgement as to who is enaging in trolling behaviour (Archer, Gary, Sam ..) on this blog, certainly not me. It's too late for "..somebody is wrong on the internets.."

Knotty Pine said...

Holy shit!! What happened to this civil, rational blog! I am forever grateful to James Turk for one thing. When I first discovered the utter bullshit that is (was) goldbugdom Mr, Turk always advocated physical gold ownership. He always considered gold ownership real wealth and often described it as "saving, not investment. The irony is I don't think he ever understood why and I am forever grateful to this blog for helping a shrimp like me understand why I own PG. I hope all the goldbugs can figure it out before it's too late. Imagine giving up and selling all your PG before the transition.

tEON said...

@michael3c2000

So, when people say things you don't agree with... you insult them by calling them names? What type of childish behavior is that?

I basically quote facts about Sinclair, Turk and Sprott... so you say:

Gary, you're a troll who doesn't believe in FOFOA, Another , FOA

which couldn't be further from the truth. When BurningFiat challenges you with

So how did you get from there to "Gary, you're a troll who doesn't believe in FOFOA, Another , FOA"?

You don't answer to the direct question but instead say

BF...you arseclown.

Do you think that is appropriate?

You say to me
Think before your worn-out baseless lies and viscious slander resembles promotion of some lurid handler and not just your ego or bored, overstimulated psyche

without quoting anything specific I said in that post. Then you go on to say:

If it wasn't for me... this legacy of freegold would have beencut short long ago.

Let me ask you, do you truly believe this?

Then BeerHoliday tries to, politely, inform you of your misinterpretation, and you say:

Check out my posts here, in the USAgold archives, in the GE archives, or any where else you can find my work.

Your work? You consider these link posts of yours work? It is mostly generic Gold Buggery highlights that are totally irrelevant to FreeGold.

THEN, you say:

I'm enjoying your sadomasiochistic self-indictment
Get lost and take your drugs with you...

What the f&ck are you talking about?

You should know that you are definitely barking up the wrong tree when McFly says:

michael3c2000, thanks for the dose of sanity

LOL. It's pretty much, being hailed a genius by the village idiot.

Michael, you are showing a very bad side of yourself - you can't debate or discuss (that would entail logic and quoting specific segments to disagree with). I even doubt you read... anything. You simply react. I detail the inaccuracies of Sinclair, Sprott and Turk and you perceive that as being anti-Gold. Why, in all this time, have you not taken the trouble to read this blog? You'd be doing yourself a big favor... and us too. It would help you be discerning instead of posting every single thing you find on the web about Gold... I suppose your next response will be another attack on me... what.ever.

Phat Repat said...

These running gun battles are always exciting in the moment, but rather unproductive in the long run. Human beings are a funny species; it is amazing how many truly don't know who or what they are.

Beer Holiday said...

I think was just a misunderstanding

When Mcfly says

"michael3c2000, thanks for the dose of sanity"

I think Mcfly can see the misunderstanding too but just wants to fan flames into an unproductive argument. Entirely consistent with being a troll.

Biju said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Biju said...

I second Gary(NTEO). we don't need to be spammed with articles authored by people who either cannot acknowledge or understand freehold, but keep pumping miners.

Also McFly is mostly spamming here.. with Goldbuggery comments. This blog never used to resemble ZH but only civilized dialogue.

Anonymous said...

There was "civilized dialogue" only when confined into the refugium of orthodoxies and group think. As soon as someone introduced dosage of reality based challenge of the evolving events it was suddenly fire on the roof: name calling, ad hominem attacks, vulgarities. You can't have it both ways guys and now flip flop, present yourself as innocent cry babies.

Clearly the context in which Michael's sanity was mentioned refered to previous comments about JS and other "banned" authors/analyst on the topic. While several trolls here are guarding sancrocity of theories on the computer screen, while someone somewhere is doing the real job, e.g. yesterday JS named as the executive chairman of the singapore precious metals exchange (SGPMX) independent advisory board.

Plain jelousy? Or is it just a cultural thing to a degree, it's my understanding that predominantely people from up to this point "stable" countries of the west usually lack the instincts developed in cultures where opressive regimes change every 20-30yrs trhoughout the consecutive centuries. That's where the theories of "this ought to be" face up the hard rock. The sun is closing down on the calm period in the west.

frankthetank said...

@ M&M (mcmagic&michel235643):
wasn't there somewhere in Asia - Hong Kong I think - a PMExchange, which had to close down? Plaese correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway,is there a correlationbetween the job, be it CEO or facility manager, a man obtains and the validity of his statements? Idon't think so.
So, why should I read a bunch of the same old repetitions, the only thing, this guys are capable most of their time?

@all: please excuse my erroneous english in this and possible future posts. I'm a non native speaker from good old Germany. (Grüße an alle anderen deutschen Michel, die hier mitlesen.)

@ FOFOA: you have build a wonderful temple of thought, not only in your head but also in this place here, called fofoa.blogspot.
Respectfull greetings to you Sir.

sean said...

There are many trails that converge here, and on some of them you can pass by people such as Sinclair as he leads his latest tour group off into the wilderness, or the KWN comedy sideshow, or even Turk where he has set up at basecamp. It comes as a relief when you realise after following this blog for a while that there's no need to waste time on following any others, as everything's spelled out nice and clearly here.

Anonymous said...

But is it correct in all aspects and timing?
That's the overall question. Given the panicky "FG/RPG any day-night open windows" annoucements passing us by like high speed rail, it's apparent there are few more delays to watch for.

It's clear to everybody the system preassures are rising, just from observing the shadows of big players we can see new alliances forged into the future, Chinese are bold enough to vocally challenge the status quo as they hasten the pace of own prepardness, the Russians act wisely as we have seen in Syria. And the formely deep state - hidden alliance of the evil "Israel + Saudi (&some Gulfies) + Pakistan" is clearly emerging and coming of age proudly as daily reality.

Preposterous easing of the CBs across the globe, new schemes in the pipeline such bailins, negative rates, and taxations.

That's all without any doubt unprecedent development just say from 10yrs rear view mirror, but still years away from the pinpoint of rebooting the system.

Lisa said...

mcmagicfly said...
But is it correct in all aspects and timing?

OF course not, that is not what FOFOA says - read it here:

"Now I must tell you that Mrs. FOFOA is just as bad at timing as me, so please take her pronouncement with more than just a grain of salt. You'll never hear me say this is it, it is now. All I can offer are possibilities and probabilities along with reasoned scenarios. You know where I have all of my savings, you know that I'm not worried about the price of gold, and if you follow this blog, you know why.

I don't care what the price of gold does tomorrow. It can go up, or it can go down. I don't know if this is it. I don't know if this year is the year. "Window" means opportunity, possibility and probability, and it is backed up with a well-articulated and well-reasoned theory. If you disagree, that's fine with me.

All I can tell you is what I think "it" will look like. And as I said, I've thought it would look a little like this since at least 2010. So in my mind that raises the probability at present. And that's why I don't like the idea of long-time gold bugs selling off their physical gold right now without at least considering this perspective for balance. "

From Hold On (to those gold coins and bars) posted on 5/19/13.

On May 17, 2013 gold was $1368. 75. On 11/22/13 gold was $1246.25. (from USA Gold historical data on London PM gold price fixing). Hold On might be a good post to reread now - to gain perspective.

PEACE

Jeff said...

But is it correct in all aspects and timing?

Guaranteed to be correct in all aspects or double your confusion back! Trade your way to riches and glory! or not.

FOA: Timing?

We, and I, as physical gold advocates, don't need timing for this position! Timing is for poor, paper traders. We are neither and our solid, long term, one call over several years to hold physical gold will confirm our reasoning. There is no stress for me to own this ancient asset as it is in a good proportion to all my other wealth.

There is no trading an economic system whose currency is ending its timeline. Smart, quick talking players will joke at our expense until fast markets and locked down paper gold positions block their "trading even" move into physical at any relative cheap price. Mine owners will see any near term profits evaporate into a government induced pricing contango that constrains stock equity with forced selling at paper gold prices.

My personal view

They will, one day in the future, helplessly watch their investments fall far behind a world free market price for physical gold. Further into the future, one day, mines will make money on the last thousand per ounce price for gold; only the first $XX,000.00 of price will not be available to them.


tEON said...

McFly intimates (I can only presume - I read some of his paragraphs multiple times and still end up scratching my head) the 'event' (collapse of the IMF$, FG, HI, whatever) lies far distant.

FoFoA's latest post relate to the elusiveness of timing - that we have no real, positively co-related, variables to dissect. And perhaps it is the hardest (and last) great attribute of the FreeGolder. Letting go. Dismissing the 'time function' being aware the encouraging factors may be our self-created smoke-and-mirrors, our delusion. So we go back to logic and the facts. Let's look at the home base:

Going back to the famous (or maybe infamous) $55,000 quote from our host's only interview - posted on the blog July 1st 2012:

Where do I see the $PoG going over the next couple of years? :

Maybe to $500 or less, but you won't be able to get any physical at that price.


Gold was, roughly, at $1600 at that point.

Then 5-months later, on January 1st 2013 Year of the Window. A PGA's year of opportunity (to accumulate).

Gold $1695 on Jan 3rd, 2013 - Friday's close = $1244. A loss of $451 or about 38%. This is fairly unprecedented for a calendar year for Gold (I say that realizing 1980 Jan-Dec from $855 - $590 or 1981 from $600 to $400)... and this year is not, yet, over.

I often wonder about the flippant comments posted here whether many appreciate what FoFoA proficied (his only, in 5 dedicated years) - totally unique within, or outside, the Gold community. Truly this is worthy of huge accolades, ALONE. And no offense against Marc Faber but you should be able to find a video of him saying almost anything, up or down, - he's more like the 1000 monkeys on 1000 typewriters. Now, I see Jim Rogers is calling for a Gold price of $950... or lower. Won't he look like a prophet in MSM - bowtie ready to spin with glee.

So, timing again - is 'the event' happening NOW? - or has it always been happening at some speed since the days of Another? - even, at times, in reverse. I must fail the FG litmus test as I only see this transpiring presently - not in 10-years, nor 5-years, but imminently (whatever you want that word to mean) if we use, probably, our best metric variable - the paper price of Gold! But can Gold rise next year? or stay flat? Sure... will it? Personally, I don't see it going that way at all in the short term.

Cheers,

tEON said...

Sorry - bad math - make that 26.6% not 38... there's that self-delusion again...

Indenture said...

frankthetank: Good to hear from you again. Your first comment about saving in gold, not for yourself but for your children, and how the family still benefits even if transition happens after your passing reminded me of the importance of time in the discussion of Freegold. Time is encapsulated in a few one ounce bars and the act of waiting outside of their frame of reference is achieved through patience and understanding.

Anonymous said...

Well, I simply put trust more towards prognosticators of record. For instance, JGRickards called correctly the sinorussian hoarding fever years ago, also the onset of neverending QE, recently no taper etc. But more importantely, he is not orthodox and acknowledges several different possible outcomes, much higher probability in HI event, which he calls aprox. 2-3-4 yrs down the road from now or a less probable deflationary abyss.

It is not about the short term trading, but gouging the inertia and resiliency of the entire global system up to this moment. We can see that the US gov. shows in recent months signs of former top dog being cornered or even being pushed around for a lack of better expression, which signals willingness of int. players to glide this burning platform in as low volatility as possible. Therefore the launch of FG/RPG will have to conform, be "gradual" as well. The actual methods or tricks how to achieve that are beyond my paygrade, but probably include something along the lines of temporary two tier pricing mechanism (perhaps we already living in that one) and/or "walk the dog" reval events phased in separate sequences within say 2-3yrs. Any sort of overnight full FG "paradigm shift" would tear up and seize everything on this planet, from control and legitimacy to security/anonymity of important players, this is simply a no go from any rational policy standpoint, but I don't negate the existence of such tail risk.

ps I guess if there is no significant market crash aka correction in Q1-Q3 2014 to piggy back FG/RPG on top of it, that will be the road sign for more monumentaly coordinated delays and sideways action for few more years

tEON said...

Dis your guy, McFly?

Rickards interview with Casey Research in 2012: "Gold will trend higher in 2013, but at a modest pace and with the usual volatility. Pretty bad call if you ask me.

Do you want the 2010 videos where he predicts $7,000 Gold in 2012?

byiamBYoung said...

"Therefore the launch of FG/RPG will have to conform, be "gradual" as well."

No.

frankthetank said...

@ Identure: few months ago I was restless waiting for something -THE THING- to happen. Then I changed my view, 'cause one night at half past two there happend something very odd. I departed my body, melted with the universe, god or call it what you want. In less then a second I realised how easy to understand this whole world, we live in, realy is, as long as you look from the right pov. Some days/weeks later, I found this blog through a link on harveyorgan.blogspot on his "to read list" and I'm still reading. Since this point in spacetime I'm not only able to rest in myself and give more happiness to the world, but life is more friendly to me. I was happy bevor, but it is a unique feeling to look through this special kind of lense. To know what's important know and then.
This blog became really a party of my personal Happy Trail. Some of you guys are really deep and hard thinkers and there's a lot to learning and thinking to do while rading this blog.

@ allthosetrollsandotherpeoplewhojustwanttoposttheirownthoughtswithoutreadingorcomprehending:
It's not about betting on where and when. It's about knowing and just betting a little bit on others things if your are a gambler like I am. You may bet on stocks, dogs, cocks or whatever you want, it's fun. Buying Gold is no bet. It never was. Buying Gold is buying spacetime and vice versa. This blog gives the best explanation why you get so less spacetime for your gold, in the moment, I found till now and it gives you a happy feeling about it on top of it.
I hope you will all keep on spamming and trolling, because sometimes it lures some great comments out of those deep thinkers around here. Who knows, perhaps someday you will.....no forget it....

@all: I won't apologise for the length of my post, 'cause you are all fofoaists ;)

Michael dV said...

My current formula for timing is:
T= time zero
R= rate of depletion of existing available stock
G= available stock
K = the chicken out factor at which the giants get nervous and just say, hey, I want mine now and I want it in my possession) ie it is the lowest level of say GLD inventory the big guys will tolerate.
Crap I'm not really going to put this into a formula but
When the GLD inventory hits a certain mark it will be over.
Unless of course a nail leaves a horse's shoe, a rider falls and the war is lost.
Unlike earthquake prediction we do have certain things we can see. GLD has lost over 100 tons per month (in some months) and seems to average 40 tons a month loss. As long as this trend continues we can see a point at which the derivatives market must fail.
I agree that this is imperfect but at least we have some outer limit of the cats ass trophy.

Anonymous said...

Gary> so now old tangential short term "trading talk" is put on piedestal and is interesting/important for you again? And not the core message from him about the reset coming which he clearly always puts aside from such unimportant volatility musings? Don't troll and obfuscate, try his recent very eloquent videointerviews instead (or his systemic long term trends predictions from far away).

As usual you excel at your forte, quoting wrongly or out of context, JGR mentioned several times reval target around $7K or bit above that (in low teens).. before 2020.

frankthetank> interesting "deep" analysis, so when and where is not of importance, hm. Perhaps we should make a telepathic call into the other world and ask the czarist family (or similar example), how unimportant was for them to relocate with their stash on time and to the right place, instead of sitting as pennyless targets at home.

tEON said...

McMagicFly said :

"Well, I simply put trust more towards prognosticators of record."

That buy was debunked in all of 10-minutes of research, now less than 2-hours later he says:

"try his recent very eloquent videointerviews instead"

So which is it McFly? By the sounds of it, you trust prognosticators of record until they are debunked, then only recent record? Would that be correct?

t au said...

@ mcmagicfly

I thank you – with your recent attack on newly arrived frankthetank, you have so excellently revealed your true self as this blog’s current troll of the first magnitude – (last held by the departed grumps) – I will now be able to waste so much less time as I simply and confidently scroll past your posted nonsense.

frankthetank said...

@ mcmagic:Try it, but I don't think they'll let you "in"!

See, if you do your homework, you don't need timing, at least not to buy gold. Every day is a good day to buy gold, if you have some money to spare.


@all: I know don't feed them, but they are so cute. I will try to limit my comments from now on.

burningfiat said...

Frank, please don't limit yourself, it's nice to read new commenters with new perspectives and everything!

Also... nice with a break from the McSpew type comments!

Ken_C said...

My thanks to Gary (NEO) and the others here for attempting to debunk the debunkers.

I am sure that from your point of view it must be a source of great frustration and annoyance to spend time to generate your responses but for myself and I am sure some others
these responses often contain much useful information. Perhaps in the larger view a persistent troll now and again is a useful thing.

Mostly I lurk on this blog but occasionally I post. I find the arguments for owning gold compelling regardless of the uncertanty of timing.

Anonymous said...

Gary> you didn't "debunk" and certainly not "researched" anything of substance in relation to discussed topics, displayed strawman tactics of yours is bellow adult discourse level as usual.

Lets compare the notes in due time, JGR's sane prediction about the coming system reset vs. the local groupies counting years of "open windows" passing by with no hypermagic 200x nominal rate windfall (counting from early 2000s) ever coming their way. And happy taxation(or worse) for everybody!

t au> good for you, thanks for displaying the classic hubris of groupies, clearly I did not in any way or shape attacked "frankthetank" - he just lost the argument, that's all

One Bad Adder said...

Surprised not to see commentary on the Iran sanctions easing hereabouts - particularly as it relates to Gold
John Kerrys' post-meeting confrence call displayed all the bravado one has come to expect however, you can't help but feel the America / Israel alliance has taken a blow - particularly given Nethanyahus' (sp?) reaction.
Could be a game-changer?
FtT: - once one comes to realise Gold (24K) neuters Time, it all becomes quite clear amigo..

frankthetank said...

@ mcmagic: I did not lose your argument. I never got it. The tsars have not yet spoken to me, but a few weeks ago I saw some of them on TV. They all looked ver happy, walking over some red carpet, wearing their wonderfull bracelets and necklaces and golden watches.

byiamBYoung said...

OBA,

You are correct re: Isreali/US relations suffering, IMHO. Netanyahu looks a bit like an animal backed into a corner. Feels quite volatile.

Cheers

Jeff said...

2020 price prognostication is cheap and easy; Understanding is hard.

FOFOA: The whole point of the [hyperinflation] debate is about the denouement, the final outcome of this 100-year dollar experiment. It is about the ultimate end, and the debate has been going on ever since the 70s when the dollar was separated from gold and it became clear that there would be an end. The debate is about determining the best stance someone should take who has plenty of net worth. And I do mean PLENTY. People of modest net worth, like me, can of course participate in the debate. But then it can become confusing at times when we think about shortages or supply disruptions of necessities like food. Of course you need to look out for life's necessities first and foremost. But beyond that, there is real value to be gained by truly understanding this debate.

byiamBYoung said...

Hi Brad!

Go away!

byiamBYoung said...

FOFOA==>Jeff: "People of modest net worth, like me, can of course participate in the debate. But then it can become confusing at times when we think about shortages or supply disruptions of necessities like food. Of course you need to look out for life's necessities first and foremost. But beyond that, there is real value to be gained by truly understanding this debate."

This is where the conversation bifurcates. Shrimps of my meager rank cannot simply buy gold and wait. We need to buy gold, wait, and count on good timing and a lot of luck.

For that reason, some of us view pot-watching as not just a diversion, but a critical component of riding the freegold wave.

I agree, MichaeldV, that GLD may be a critical vital sign. Incidentally, it just dropped below my prediction of 855 tonnes as the point where the whole thing implodes, so I'm out of the office pool, I guess.

I'm also watching China, because they clearly are not marching in lockstep with the dollarized world.

I see the difference between the world's nervous reaction to the 2013 US debt ceiling impasse- compared to the more subdued reaction to the 2011 debt ceiling impasse- as a compelling sign that under the hood, conditions are beginning to scare more decision makers.

I am waiting with great interest to see the world's reaction to the next act in the debt saga, coming to us in early 2014.

IMHO.

Good luck to us all!

Reality Show said...

FoFoA, an excellent rebuttal, I echo others who suggest it merits its own post (if only to make for easy linking when helping others to understand stuff).

@frankthetank, nice thoughts, there's something refreshing in the way you write.
@DASK, thanks for the bitcoin pdf link, very interesting.
@Gary, we can see what McTry is doing.

But most importantly, can we all keep things civil please and respect our host?

Reality Show said...

Here is another example of currency rushing to find an SoV. Nice enough small piano, but how far over the estimate? !!!

Michael dV said...

RS
The piano was well priced imho. Think of all the guitar tops you could get out of the Alaskan Sitka spruce in that baby. The maple is just what a Strat neck needs too.
I actually have a Steinway (an ex- left it as she fled the horror) They are lovely pieces. I do suggest buying used though. 2 million bucks for any instrument is a tad of overkill.

Anand Srivastava said...

I think I know how Bitcoins will be used in the future.

It will not be used by the common people. It will be used by speculators and traders. It is the only SoV asset that can be traded online, without paper proxies.

AG paper gold will not be acceptable, and will not be supported by the govts. Silver would have fallen out of favor as an SoV. There is a need for something that Traders and Speculators can use to trade and speculate on, which can be called an SoV, for hedging their bets.

This need has been filled for a long time by Paper Gold and Paper Silver. AG these two will be missing. They will be able to use Bitcoins for hedging their bets. The added advantage of Bitcoins is that there are no paper proxies that are required. The bitcoins themselves can be traded.

So now we can predict a probable final price of Bitcoin. It will take the place of XAUUSD, which is traded at about 500B$/day. Bitcoin is currently trading at < 500M$/day.

This would mean that the Bitcoin must go up 1000times. But we are trying to determine the long term price. The current Forex market must go down, when there is less liquidity, AG. I would think the number would be somewhere between 10-100 times, ie 5$ to 50B$. This would mean bitcoin must still go up 10-100 times to reach the stable value post Freegold.

Meanwhile during crisis, it is likely to go up more than that. Quite possibly > 100 times.

There will be people like us who will be using it as an online currency, but we will not really matter. Just like physical holders do not matter at present :-).

Does this idea make sense? If not what do you think will take place of XAUUSD.

DP said...

Free gold!
Still trades ideal.
Hot air?
Loses its appeal.

Roacheforque said...

Indenture,
Gold is not "going to $55K" but rather the dollar will be going to "$55K GOLD".
All things in the physical plane will being goping along for that short ride, until definitions change and that which fails in its old definition succeeds in its new.

As I understand it ... FWIW/

Roacheforque said...

It appears that when fiat gold drops in dollar terms tensions run a bit higher.

If you have any gold at all, be thankful. This is a good week for it.

There will be much $800 physical gold to be shaken from weak hands in the coming weeks. Much was bought at this dollar price. Some was even taken for "free" over time, but those have need for fiat as well.

Each layer of past price creates new buyewr and sellers as the volatility continues.

Happy!

Woland said...

Nice link over at Jesse's on the Nicaragua canal project, and
its significance. {;<)>>

Anonymous said...

Concerning the Freegold Clock;

First off I think we should use the peak of 1,322 tons around 2/15/2013 as a starting point. Second I remember reading an article on how about 500 tons? of numbered bars never seem to leave the vault while at the same time there was a rapid turnover of bar serial numbers above 500 tons? Given the hyper- hypothecated world we live today it’s not beyond all reason to suggest that these 500 tons are actually ‘leased’ bars used to generate cash flow in order to run the GLD exchange. Those vaults and workers that operate the exchange don’t pay for themselves and gold doesn’t generate a cash flow.

So by combining a more logical start point for the Freegold clock along with 500 tons of fantasy physical I arrive at a Freegold date of mid June of next year at the current drain rate of about 1.7 tons/day.

Anonymous said...

Roacheforque> yep, bellow $1K many formerly perceived strong hands will capitulate in panic, the timing will decide how far it could drop. Spaul67's estimate sounds reasonable, but don't underestimate the data/PR manipulations of recent time (stock could be higher), and also the fun factor of cretin governments to the rescue, shipping some pallets just to prolong for few months/years the agony. Namely the elites from newish NATO countries are absolute door stop lackeys to the Borg (some dishorded in the late 90s though), but it could be just anybody at that time, they will only have to find the most gullible one.

Michael dV said...

Spaul
why use the 1322 number?
Also 'leased' gold usually does not leave the central bank. We are told it is really just a gold backed guarantee.
I see your point that there could be a clump that does not move but the fund had less than 100 tons when it started.
I think we are still short a couple of constants in the equation.

Anonymous said...

mcmagicfly said:
"several trolls here are guarding sancrocity of theories on the computer screen, while someone somewhere is doing the real job, e.g. yesterday JS named as the executive chairman of the singapore precious metals exchange (SGPMX) independent advisory board. "

+1

For those on their golden high horse up in the smug clouds, maybe you should be humble enough to remember that you are nothing more than an anonymous internet poster whose opinion means literally nothing to the rest of the world.

Jim Sinclair is at least spending his time more productively (with respect to "freegold") than posting vapid comments that are scrolled past by most readers. If you want to talk about bad timing, maybe you should discuss the lord of them all, Another, who is now off by 15 years and counting...

Polly Metallic said...

athrone,

Another and FOA did not have a specific timeframe, and they recommended storing one's SURPLUS wealth in gold for the long term. Anyone dithering over the price of gold has probably spent money on gold that was NOT surplus.

As for JS I used to be a big supporter but, although he means well, he really doesn't understand the upcoming change in gold's role. He has a glimpse of the truth but that's about it. His words still ring in my ears when he insisted that the poorly performing mining sector would SURELY provide stellar gains once gold crossed $800. Wow. Still waiting and the miners have, for the most part, been the worst "investment" on the planet. Including Jim's company.

Anonymous said...

Polly Metallic,

I'm sorry but I read Another before reading FOFOA and he wrote as if Freegold would be upon us before the end of the month, much less 15 years later.

In truth, nobody can predict the future but only offer ideas. The problem with ideas is that most of history is driven by black swans, things we cannot predict. Rarely does history line up so nicely to what people can forecast. A year ago who thought 1 Bitcoin would be almost as much as 1oz of Gold? There are a number of posters on this blog that think the world is rational and orderly, that if you can logically explain something you can predict the future. History has shown it's simply not plausible.

Another reason to be more humble with words on this subject.

t au said...

Seriously, do some people read and not retain anything?

“If you came with a notion that I am someone who sees the future; grab the children and run far away.”

FOA 6/19/2001

Anonymous said...

t au,

I said Another, not FOA. The two are not interchangeable. That is also several years after Another timing was wrong, so no surprise he mentions not to trust his timing...

Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tekin said...

spaul67 said... a Freegold date of mid June of next year at the current drain rate of about 1.7 tons/day.

It is interesting to note that Jim Rickards seems to have a similar time frame. He suggests that the market will make a big move six months later due to Iran buying gold, in response to a joint Saudi-Israel attack on Iran. In this scenario, Iran would not be able to buy much gold, they will only be the scapegoat for the failure of the paper gold market. Are we sniffing intentions of force majeur, in here?

Here are the relevant Rickards tweets

Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards 24 Nov
Interesting that in the midst of an agreement on uranium & sanctions, we restored #Iran right to buy #gold. Must have been important to them

Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards 24 Nov
#Saudi support of dollars for oil has been a key to $ hegemony for 40 yrs. Saudis feel betrayed by #Iran deal. So, what next for the dollar?

Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards 24 Nov
#Obama now telling #Israel and #SaudiArabia not to attack #Iran is like him telling #TedCruz not to filibuster. Good luck with that.

Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards 24 Nov
Next 6 months: #Iran sells oil for dollars then uses dollars to buy #gold. After deal collapses, they use gold to barter outside SWIFT.

Tekin said...

In a bi-partisan document titled "From Rhetoric to Reality: Reframing U.S. Turkey Policy", US Congress seems to urge Turkey to be ready for an Iran war. Sheer coincidence?

http://bipartisanpolicy.org/sites/default/files/US%20Turkey%20Policy.pdf

Snippets:

A more critical question is the role Turkey would play in a potential military confrontation with Iran, whether by the United States or Israel.... If, in fact, it becomes necessary to use military force to
thwart Iran’s nuclear ambitions, Turkish air space would be critical to the mission...

… American policymakers should nevertheless engage Turkey on the topic of Iran. This includes keeping Turkey informed of ongoing diplomatic efforts, both because of its position as Iran’s neighbor and to avoid the sort of miscommunication that occurred in 2010, as well as beginning discussion about the possibility of using force to prevent a nuclear Iran, what that means for the U.S.-Turkish relationship, and what help the Turks could provide in such an event.

---------

Meanwhile, the Atlantic Council convenes in Istanbul and talks about "geopolitics of the energy revolution shaping the 21st century."
http://www.acsummit.org/


Dante_Eu said...

@anand:

It surprises me that, you, with background in computer science and are from India, have such trust in BitCoin. Especially as SoV.

The biggest strength and also achilles heel is a line of code:

/** No amount larger than this (in satoshi) is valid */
static const int64_t MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;


But wait, every node has to agree, if altered, right? Well, if there is 1 thing I take from the Trail, it is this:
"When the tribe need to bend the rules, the rules will be bent."

And if not, I'm sure it will be abandoned, before it reaches the levels you mention. Even if it does, less then 1% will ever see any benefit in the real world (conversion to fiat currency and subsequently physical things). I belive that's true even today.

On another note, from ZH:
Guest Post: Inflation Is Raging – If You Know Where To Look

"Now we’re at it again, with economists, legislators and central bankers using low consumer price inflation as a rationale for even easier money, while ignoring epic bubbles in sovereign bonds, equities, high-end real estate and collectibles around the world. A chart tracking the tangible asset classes of the super-rich would show all lines going parabolic - except one, gold - for now.

Well, well, maybe some super-rich guy or gal (or even giant) can learn a thing or two from a shrimp like me. ;-)

Anonymous said...

Tekin> JGR repeated the same line from twitter on RT-Keiser. He is very good communicator and some sort of insider, whe who is running war-game scenarios for MIC and brags about it, definately must be in some capacity in the club. So his int. relations comments could be a bit "tainted" by agenda or should I say in more neutral way he is likely a spokeperson and handler for some specific inner power faction. Made interesting comment on that TV show about 200-300-400yrs old european money rule of 30% survival (oz., art, land). The simplest explanation, his mission is slowly diffusing the bomb, softening the impact, via making media apperances, publishing bestsellers on the topic etc., broadening the awarness of the system reboot. And obviously reporting back from his "high level" travels and talks to various officials in Russia, Middle East, Asia etc. This guy could be timemachined (in apropriate costume) right back into some spy novel from czarist russia, the napoleonic era, ha.

Michael dV said...

Tekin
Interesting thought...Iran uses dollars to buy gold...but can anyone really still buy gold in large amounts?
I can't prove it because I don't have enough to even buy one ton, but I'll bet it is almost impossible to get that much physical.
Yes some flows but the net, judging by the drop in GLD inventory, is spoken for. If A and FOA were correct it is probably going to 'the right people'.
When Rickards speaks he does admit that 10 tons can't be sourced but then he suggests that gold might be used as a MOE (second hand) at these low prices.
I don't get it.

t au said...

@JoJo

Thanks much for the heads-up.
I appreciate it.

Reality Show said...

Michael, guitar tops from a Steinway board? The horror!

So in the UK there has been a large rise in what are colloquially known as pay-day lenders. Legalised loan-sharking really. They offer small short-term cash loans and advertise themselves with cute puppets and the like. The rates are outrageous: the outfit with the greatest presence on TV offers Sterling annualised at, and this is not a typo, 5853%.

Incredibly they are proving popular, such is the perceived growing need for extra cash by many here. Instead of cutting back, people are encouraged to borrow more and more as they are dragged further into inescapable debt. It stinks.

Are these new lenders a global phenomenon, or something unique to the UK?

byiamBYoung said...

@Reality Show,

We have PayDay lenders here in the USA, but I'd have to check that interest rate. It sounds too high to escape regulation.

Cheers

Reality Show said...

Absolutely Polly, if the price of gold matters to you, you shouldn't be holding any.

Michael dV said...

If this Sprott chart is anywhere near correct it is already game over.
It states demand exceeds production by 3000 tons a year. We know 848 tons (GLD). We know the CBs won't give anymore up. If this continues at this rate we are months, at most, away from 'Sorry Out of Gold'.
http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/china-india-turkey-and-thailand-buying.html#

Michael dV said...

RS
Only joking about making guitar tops. I weep when I see a scratch on any of my instruments (except the electronic stuff which is old the day you bring it home)
We have similar loan shops. On small loans once fees are considered the overall costs can go quite high. These are only for the desperate and dim.

Reality Show said...

Still, perhaps the Steinway would be safer at my place.

2 Million people have used these loan parasites here, apparently.

byiamBYoung said...

@Michael dV/Reality Show,

It's the debt trap. If you haven't adequately prepared for trouble (sadly, many people), you are a paycheck or two away from falling in. SHTF in your daily life, and then SHTF again. Then again. Now you are truly desperate. You have a gallon of gas in the car, no food, and then the car breaks down. You have to tow it, but there is no money. Your bank account goes negative, and the bank clobbers you with hundreds of dollars in fees in a matter of hours.

Now you are radioactive. Your children need to have something for dinner. You are out of options.

Resources like the PayDay loan place, or a pawn shop seem to be the only way to hold it together until the next paycheck. Usually, everything happens so fast, you can't do anything but capitulate (unless you want to break some laws). One must eat, and it's nice to feed your children... today.

Once you are in, it's damn near impossible to get out without a major change of fortune.

Thankfully, I have never fallen all the way into that trap, and have long ago wrestled my way out of that sort of desperation, but I have peered into that abyss. It's very real, and the predatory nature of these operations is hideous.

Desperate looks a lot like dim.

Reality Show said...

I guess what bothers me is that it is not only the desperate that use these services, it's becoming truly mainstream here. Walk past one and you'll see a client with a new 5s on the table. People are nowhere near learning to want less.

Michael dV said...

Interesting translation of comments by a member of the China gold council made in 4/2013. It shows some depth of knowledge and opinion about gold leasing particularly with regards to Germany.
http://www.ingoldwetrust.ch/gold-leasing-is-a-tool-for-the-global-credit-game

Michael dV said...

BbY
I did not mean to sound callous. I agree that if one is desperate it may be an only choice. I suspect for many it is not. Here in the states we also have awful income tax redfund services. You get your money a few weeks early but a a huge (hidden) cost.

Phat Repat said...

RS
Maybe I'm pitnicking, but is it really about "learning to want less"? Or more about learning to want what you can afford? I for one hope that we are never curtailed from obtaining that which we can afford; whatever that may be.

byiamBYoung said...

@RS,

That's in line with what I was trying to say. People of workable earning capacity are relentlessly cajoled and coaxed into living on the edge of their means by the thirsty corporate machine. Yes, they should know better, but clearly, they don't.

Should these people resist the constant pushing to get the latest gadget/car/fashion/bling/game/event? Sure. But they are weak, and the corporate machine preys on that weakness with deftly crafted, deeply tested messages.

There is almost no signal, above all the noise, that points the weak toward responsible choices. So, it is no surprise that they are out of money at the end of the pay period, and have nothing in savings. It is exactly what the hungry machine requires, so there is no impetus to stem the people's destructive spending patterns.

This is the result of systematically dumbing down our population to the point that they behave as if they can't make solid decisions about their financial future. Social engineering has brought our population to the brink of ruin.

End of sermon.

byiamBYoung said...

Michael dV,

Yes, also true. A concerted effort to foster a better understanding of the costs of these short term loans/refund programs would greatly help a lot of people, but would also hinder the corporate machine. So that effort will not happen or will be thwarted.

And so many impressionable people have been so desensitized by the incessant pop culture media storm that they make terrible choices, leading them to financial slaughter. Ultimately their responsibility, but when people are trained from a young age to have no responsibility, well, that's what happens.

It's really a deplorable system, but it seems to be deeply rooted at this point.

Sorry for the rants.

Cheers

Phat Repat said...

It's true that media, corporate interests, irresponsible government, lax parenting, and poor education are partly to blame for the current state of affairs. But, there comes a point when the big boy/girl panties are put on and you, and you alone, are responsible for your actions. Period. Anything else is an attempt to shirk your responsibility to yourself, your family, and society at large. The pock is on you and you alone. And I'm not sorry for the rant. WTFU.

byiamBYoung said...

@Phat,

Yes, we all must don our big boy/girl panties at some point. Agreed. And I am far from a bleeding heart liberal.

But today's culture tsunami is unlike any ever experienced. Our young are blasted continuously with the most sophisticated marketing messages ever created. These messages are woven into everything they experience. It smells like the truth.

There is no escape from the meme, because it is parroted to them even by their teachers- the most influential people in their lives for many.

These youths (now adults, as this has been a while in the making) never had a chance.

For these new consumers, nothing is more important than driving a coveted car, or wearing the latest fashion. For them, displaying your wealth is far more important than preserving your wealth.

And it is what we taught them.

No one is shirking anything. They never had any responsibility. They have nothing to shirk. It's all about the image.

I agree with your disgust of the concept. But it is misplaced.

Big society needs to turn a corner to change this. Individuals are just symptoms of the problem.

Anand Srivastava said...

Dante_Eu:

That particular line is not my concern, for FOFOA has taught me well, that for SoVs the quantity is not a concern as the price is arbitrary.

Yes there will be deflation in Bitcoin, as we will have deflation in Gold. How is it any different?

My bigger concern is the transaction rate.

Each transaction is part of a Block that is being mined. Since there is only 1 block mined per 10 minute on an average, you can have only as many transactions as you can fit into one block. Currently at the size of 130Kb, the transaction rate is limited at 7/sec. To increase the transaction rate you have to increase the block size, which is actually already in the code by the way. The only problem is that when the size of blocks increase there is a cost to downloading the block, for verification purposes. This will cause problems in the world where bandwidth is very slow. The good thing is that faster bandwidth is slowly reaching the third world. So if bandwidth becomes a concern, it will reduce its reach somewhat, not much though.

I do expect that slowly it will fall out of favor for doing small transactions, and online mechanisms like Paypal will be used for that. Yes, Bitcoin will force them to keep their transaction cost to free or negligible, they will earn more from currency conversions. Bitcoin will be used for larger currency transactions (to and from paypal, etc). And Trading is a currency transaction.

Credit cards can also be created out of bitcoins, which may force Visa/MC to lower their charges. There are already ATMs out there. So Visa/MC will have some real competition. Till now they are more of a duopoly.

Anand Srivastava said...

One more point.

There are 10^8 satoshi's in a bitcoin. So the 21*10^6 bitcoins can be further broken down into 21*10^14 satoshi's. Plenty of coins for everyone.

Phat Repat said...

@byiamBYoung
I wonder how many generations before said exactly the same thing? Sure, it is somewhat different now, because of the Info Age, but that doesn't relieve anyone of their responsibility (or obligations, if a Parent or Guardian).

Bottom line is I accept my responsibilities, and my failures. Own your mistakes and learn from them. Other than that, I'm actually quite liberal. :-)

Franco said...

anand:

Maybe what Dante_Eu was alluding to is that, unlike with gold, where the amount is actually limited by physical constraints, with Bitcoin the limit is imposed arbitrarily by a line of code. What happens the day that the collective decides that "we need more Bitcoins"? Well, I don't know, but as they say, where there's a will, there's a way.

byiamBYoung said...

@Phat

I suspect that we agree on far more than what we disagree on.

Cheers

Phat Repat said...

@byiamBYoung

Ditto; we are at the same watering hole. :-) Salut!

Anand Srivastava said...

Franco:

I guess the same problem is with Euro then. Do you really expect all the Politicians to get together to change the single mandate. Not really. In Euro somebody will be getting more and somebody will be getting less. So the two will not meet.

In Bitcoin, also 51% of the bitcoin software on the network must agree to use the new software. Yes the software is most often automatically updated, so there is a chance that it can be changed by a few interests. But it is unlikely, as there is a review process, and the large bitcoin miner networks approve the software before adding to their software. Also the major bitcoin access software must also change. This software is also used by other people. It will cause a problem in the network. A large number of influential people in the bitcoin network will have to agree to cause disruption to the network. Entirely the wrong incentive for them.

Another thing to remember is that changing that line will not give you a lot of bitcoins. Yes more bitcoins will be awarded for mining a block. So this is most beneficial for mining networks. The mining network managers have a small amount of their own miners as a percentage. So they will be looking for a lot of ill will, for very small benefit. These people already own a lot of bitcoins, due to their history. In effect they would be losing money, and other people will be gaining it. Another wrong set of incentives.

DP said...

Saving in currency (credit) inevitably leads the rich to demand the debt of the poor.
They use fair means or foul.

Roacheforque said...

Ahhh, a good point made. Debt is the only thing in this world that there is literally "enough of" to act as a functioning means of exchange for all the wants and desires of the image fueled Western culture.

Gold could never hope to perform such a feat.

Debt will fail, then rise again ... correctly repriced by gold.

Yes, the risk rate of correctly priced debt may be quite different than it is today ...

DP said...

"Correctly priced debt" may raise the bar for "getting rich" and "keeping it"… as well as "leaving poverty behind"?

On the plus side… environment-friendly.

Everyone votes for green, no?

DP said...

The bureaucrats of the ECB governing council are independant of the short term politics of any nation.

They cannot, however, operate in the absence of consent among the people of Europe, who they represent.

Yes, everyone votes for green in the end.

Dr. Boer said...

@"sermon" Michael dV/Reality Show/BryamYoung:
Small folks oppressed, yes very much so! One generation back the Church protected the small ones. Local pastor guiding the individual, steering him or her away from nonsensical and dangerous loans / "investments". 60 years ago, the % of people loaning to purchase goods was ZERO among the Dutch reformed. Doing away with Christianity comes at a price. [Bob Dylan "Oh, the shepherd is asleep while the willows weep and the hills are filled with lost sheep"--http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/ring-them-bells]

Woland said...

hi DP;

BIS Chairman Christian Noyer
"The end of the Financial Dictatorship?"
at Aix en Provence, 6 July, 2013 (at bis.org)

"This question is not new; already Petronius, in Roman
times, at the start of our era, asked, "What use are laws
when money is king?" (Petronius, author of the Satyricon)

The Dow Theorist said...

@Michael DV:

great link. thx. The contents of the article look very fofoa-ish.

DP said...

Thanks, Woland. :)

Woland said...

via Bloomberg:
"Gold Fix Drawing Scrutiny amid Knowledge Tied to Eruption"
gives a nice "nuts and bolts" description of the London gold
fix process details, and how said "fix" might (possibly?) be
abused to benefit members' positions. Cheers.

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