Tuesday, November 5, 2013

Advance Warning


This post is my replies to two reader emails. The first one was to "Victory", one day after my Gold as a FOREX Currency post went up. And the second one was to "Burningfiat" on Friday.

Hello Victory,
"... My thinking is this, won't the end of $ support be clearly visible in the currency exchange rate? Isn't that where the rubber meets the road, there really should be no guesswork needed. The US is a perpetual net exporter of dollars and has long ago hyper-inflated…"
There is definitely a glut of dollars right now. In September the Fed announced its new "reverse-repo" operations. There is, of course, a lot of debate about what those are really about, but I think it is obvious that they are to mop up the glut of dollars and raise short term interest rates in money markets and t-bills. The Fed even said so. They said that these operations will raise overnight rates in the money markets so that lenders can actually earn some interest.

When there's a glut of dollars, it's hard for banks (who create dollars) or money markets (who auction existing dollars) to make money on interest because there's so much competition for the limited pool of borrowers. Too many dollars drives interest rates to zero and even negative in some cases. So the Fed is actually competing against real organic borrowers for its own liabilities. The Fed will pay you to lend your extra dollars back to the Fed, even though what the Fed is "borrowing" are its own liabilities. So the Fed is creating synthetic demand for its own product to drive overnight and short term interest rates higher.

You're looking for a crash in the USDX to indicate the imminent end, but I have always expected a spike in the dollar, and I think Another expected that as well. I have written in the past that we could even see the USDX spike (very quickly mind you, not a slow rise) to something like 150.

What we see right now is big money piling into short duration, even overnight, assets. To escape, that money will have to pass though dollars once again. Where the rubber meets the road, in my opinion, is not anywhere inside the monetary plane. Instead, it is where the monetary plane intersects the physical plane, and that is in prices, the prices of real physical things, the price of physical gold and the price of (primarily imported) necessities. That's where I expect to see the break, in one of those two places: the LBMA or a real price jump in necessities. Whichever one comes first, I think it will quickly cause the second one to follow.

What that means, practically, is that either physical gold goes into hiding first, or there's a sudden devaluation of the dollar against the physical plane, meaning necessities, especially those necessities needed by the USG which must be imported. When that happens, the USG will print whatever is needed to keep its imported necessities flowing in under the aegis of national defense. Actual hyperinflation will follow.

When this happens, or a top level disruption within the LBMA, all that money piled into short duration assets will panic out and bid for dollars which it needs in order to pile into anything else. This will briefly drive the dollar way up on the USDX. It may even happen before you know what's happening, because big money tends to panic before small money even knows there's something to panic about. Remember this story from Unambiguous Wealth 2?

"Compare these big money folks to the average guy who rides the bus. You miss a bus, so what? It's inconvenient but another bus will come. It takes a long time to sink in that another bus isn't coming. It's not until there is such a big crowd waiting at the bus stop for the next bus that people start thinking "even if a bus comes there are too many people to fit on one bus." In that mindset the surest way to cause a riot is to send one bus i.e., not enough buses. You have to fight to get to the front of the queue. This is a bank run mentality.

And this is a key difference between the average guy and the big money. Big money isn't used to being kept waiting. Big money owns the "bus company". They know the buses aren't going to run before the little guy. They panic early. There was an electronic bank run around the time of the Lehman collapse. That was one of the reasons why governments around the world stepped in with fresh deposit guarantees. But there were no lines outside the banks to alert the average guy to what the Giants were up to.

Right now gold is $1,712 per ounce. If you have $200,000 in ambiguous claims floating through system-space, your account is right now worth 116 one-ounce gold coins of unambiguous wealth. But here's the thing. You are never going to beat the big money to that panic button. There are enough gold coins on the market right now that you could get your 116 of them without affecting the price. But if you're waiting for the first signs of panic, you're not going to get anywhere near 116. You'll be lucky to get six or seven.

There's only one way to beat the Giants to the gold, and that is to run in front of them."
Apply this reasoning to the signals you are watching. Even though you aren't waiting to buy gold coins at the last minute, you are still looking for signs that systemic transition is imminent. So what you want to look for are signs that big money is panicking, not the signs that you think will cause big money to panic. Because chances are that the really big money will see those signs before you do, and panic before you even know they are there. Therefore, signs that you think should be making big money panic, when it's not panicking, are probably the wrong signs. See?

In the comments section, it often seems like the Freegold holy grail is to be able to predict the proximate cause, and therefore get some advance warning, and therefore be the first to make a correct timing call on Freegold, even if it's only by days. But if you follow my reasoning, then it is most likely a waste of time trying to gain some advance warning. The advance warning is in the logic, and in the A/FOA archives. And the holy grail is simply buying physical gold now, before it happens. That alone will make anyone look like a genius in hindsight.

Some people look for rising short term interest rates as a sign of systemic stress, while others look for rates to fall to zero or below. Some look for a falling DX while others look for a spike. That's all monetary plane stuff, and not where the rubber truly meets the road. As I said, the Fed is trying to levitate short term rates right now, so why would rising rates indicate stress? To me they indicate that the Fed has sufficient control over the monetary plane, which I kind of assumed it did. What it has no control over is where the monetary plane intersects the physical plane.

"So my question is really this, until we see the $ drop rapidly on the FX market don't we know that official support from someone besides the USG is still in full effect. And the corollary that FG will not be imminent until this support is withdrawn, which we would see immediately in the FX market as a $ devaluation?"
We could see a sudden drop in the USD versus other currencies in the FX market, or we could see a spike. But I think we will eventually see some sudden, unexpected and highly unusual volatility. That's what I would watch for if you're one who likes to watch the pot, waiting for the water to boil. Watch for unusual and extreme volatility, because that should be what we see when the monetary plane comes unhinged from the physical plane. And don't forget the concept that there can be a head-fake right before a phase transition, a sudden and major move in an unexpected direction.

For me, I already have the advance warning in the logic and the A/FOA archives. I try not to watch the pot, but instead to explain the logic to others, because I think that's better than trying to predict how the monetary plane markets will behave at that moment when the physical plane lets go.

Sincerely,
FOFOA

Hi FOFOA,

Hope all is well!

Do you have an opinion of the latest strange GLD inventory update behaviour?

Could it be a sign of rumblings further down in the machine room? Or do you really think it's all just meaningless pot watching? :)

/BF

Hello BF,

I certainly think it is interesting, but the short-term variations we see don't change my opinion of what is happening behind the scenes. I think the consistent drain this year is a sign of rumblings further down in the machine room, but I find it hard to believe that the reporting anomalies are reverberations from the same thing that is causing the drain. More likely, I think, there is probably some explanation for the reporting anomalies that we just don't know about, something that we haven't even considered.

The indisputable story is that GLD has lost 36% of its inventory, 487 tonnes in 10 ½ months. Title to that gold was transferred to someone. The only question that matters is whether it was transferred into BB reserves (the plenitude view) or into private ownership (my view, and obviously the correct view ;). That's more than 46 tonnes per month.

The BBs probably have at least twice that much coming in through mining and scrap (just a guess), so let's imagine they have 100 tonnes coming in each month. The outflow is obviously higher than the inflow, but the pressure is widely distributed across the LBMA. So the rumblings in the machine room are widely distributed and therefore isolated from what we see in the reservoir drain reporting. GLD is where the buck stops, where they obtain that shortfall of incoming gold, but it is not likely going to a specific buyer. More likely, it is simply restocking the subterranean stream.

The point is, I wouldn't expect the underlying cause of the drain to transfer "short term vibrations" into the daily reporting of the drain, I only expect it to show up in the greater trend. Therefore I think it is more likely that there must be a more mundane explanation for the reporting anomalies that we see, something we simply don't know about and therefore haven't even considered. That's the way I apply Occam's razor to a situation like this.

I expect the short-term machinations of the system to appear outwardly normal right up until the moment the pistons seize up and the whole machine comes to a grinding halt. That's the way these things usually seem to end. So I expect that could happen at any moment, without visible warning signs. In hindsight, I think we'll realize that OBA was right, it was just a hair's breadth away. But watching the pot can make even a hair's breadth feel like an eternity from the watcher's perspective.

So yes, it's interesting, but Occam's razor tells me that we are most likely watching the effects of some mundane cause we are not aware of while "superstitiously" trying to attribute those effects to the greater cause which is clearly obvious in the long-term trend. That's fine, and it is human nature to do so, but at what cost? The cost is that a hair's breadth starts feeling like an eternity, and some people can't handle that feeling and end up throwing in the towel.

Have you noticed how many people that have only been following my blog for a year or so eventually start making emotion-based predictions that Freegold must be 5, 10, or 20 years away? I have been at this for more than five years, and I still have the same view I had in 2008, that it could happen at any moment and each moment that passes brings us one moment closer. In fact, I think it must be almost here right now! And I think the reason I am able to maintain that view is that I have never been a pot watcher. I have always paid more attention to FOA's logic and the long-term trend than to the short-term vibrations.

The long-term trend is that the commodity bull/dollar bear market ended more than a year ago, even though dollar inflation *policy* is firmly in place. Shortly after that, the GLD drain began. And shortly after that, support for "foreign dollar settlement with CB storage" reversed and began declining. This is very close to what FOA said in one of his last posts: "The game is to let the US economy suffer from its own bloated expansion by moving slowly away from supporting foreign dollar settlement with CB storage. This is more than enough to end the dollar's timeline as we are already stretched to the leverage limit. They know that [the Fed] has but one policy to use and that will be super printing."

Anyway, keep up the great work with your auto-pot-watching app! I do enjoy the short-term show, even if I don't put much stock in it. ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA


882 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   601 – 800 of 882   Newer›   Newest»
Sherlock said...

byiamBYoung said...
"@Phat,

But today's culture tsunami is unlike any ever experienced. Our young are blasted continuously with the most sophisticated marketing messages ever created. These messages are woven into everything they experience. It smells like the truth.

There is no escape from the meme, because it is parroted to them even by their teachers- the most influential people in their lives for many.

These youths (now adults, as this has been a while in the making) never had a chance.

For these new consumers, nothing is more important than driving a coveted car, or wearing the latest fashion. For them, displaying your wealth is far more important than preserving your wealth.

And it is what we taught them.

No one is shirking anything. They never had any responsibility. They have nothing to shirk. It's all about the image."

ByiamBYoung,

I don't disagree the young are inundated with a plethora or marketing schemes. But I think the tidal wave may be losing it's desired effect, or maybe an alternative campaign is being launched. I consider the growing popularity of musical artists like Lorde and Macklemore who tend to side on the less glamorous, more rational side. Who would have thought there would be a hit song about buying clothes from a thrift store, or another hit lambasting the antics of pop-music princesses? Music is hugely influential on younger generations and there is a war raging for the market.

Alternatively, consider young children today. My 4 year old nephew can operate a smartphone at lightning speed, whereas my 57 year old father can barely send a text message. Children will view these devices as essential as they age. Which is somewhat scary to think about. I worry future generations will be dumbed down, but not because of marketing campaigns or government conspiracy to have a less educated public. I think they're going to be "dumber" because having and holding knowledge will become pointless in a world where you can ask Siri anything and get an answer. What does that mean for math and science? What does that mean for culture when a society doesn't read or write?

It reminds me of the short story by Isaac Asimov, "The Last Question." (read here - http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm ) Just replace Multivac, Microvac, Galactic AC, Universal AC, Cosmic AC, and AC with Siri.

Sherlock

byiamBYoung said...

Sherlock,

You make some good points.

I know at least a couple of people who, thanks to their phones' GPS apps, no longer try to rely on their cognitive maps. They just turn when told to.

Cheers

Unknown said...

Even Bill Holter getting in on Free Gold.

"Big Week Ahead…Pieces To the Puzzle and the Art of War

http://blog.milesfranklin.com/big-week-ahead-pieces-to-the-puzzle-and-the-art-of-war

ein anderer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sam said...

I wouldn't worry too much about future generations. Every generation will want to learn, they will just learn something different than we did. My grandfather didn't like that my dad wanted to learn about space instead of working on the farm. My dad worried that I was into computers instead of wanting to tinker with my car. I'm sure I'll worry that my son will not learn something I think is important. Perhaps "smart" in the future will be those most skilled at retrieving needed information rather than memorizing it in advance

ein anderer said...

Athrone,
O gosh. A man like JS who is claiming Silver to be something reliable (instead of being an industrial material absolutely dependet of the ups and downs of economy)—such a poor intellect is compared with a deep analysist like FOFOA? Come on. You’re kidding!

burningfiat said...

+1 Sherlock! A truly great Asimov story!

Pot watcher: "AC, Can this debt chaos not be reversed into a functioning system once more?"

"THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

XD

Roacheforque said...

Woland,
I see nothing new under the sun. Money is indeed KING.

Anonymous said...

FOFOA - to visualize the actions of spot traders of gold as FOREX:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH-groCeKbE

The video shows the movements of a swarm of starlings.

They all follow each other; the direction they will take is unpredictable and no one starling can be identified as initiating a change in direction. The same holds for traders of gold as FOREX: each is watching what the others do, that is their only reference for the direction they take. And traders, like starlings, can be easily influenced as to direction by a single shotgun blast of sales by a financial entity interested in moving the price down.

Lisa said...

Hugo

Great clip and analogy - they call that murmuration.

I think your analogy to gold traders can be broadened to the actions of the superorganissm. Watching those starlings gives us an idea of how the transition will proceed once it starts.

Well worth watching for anyone who has not seen
starling murmuration before.

Anonymous said...

From the website of the new Singapore Precious Metals Exchange:

http://www.sgpmx.com/faq.html

The minimum is US$1,000. So is this expected to be a Free Gold compatible alternative to holding Gold without having to use GTU/PHYS or burying it in your backyard?

Anonymous said...

Also, given how far gold has dropped, would it make sense to go ahead and tax-loss harvest by selling and either buying right back or transferring some over to SGPMX?

Has anyone else tax-loss harvested this big drop?

t au said...

What are the benefits of using SGPMX?
SGPMX is the only online exchange with the following benefits:
1) Allocated and Dedicated.
Buy, sell or hold your precious metals with complete peace of mind as your precious metals are stored in your name, in independently run high security vaults, operated by Certis Cisco. You can also enjoy the convenience of withdrawing your physical precious metal investments at any time, as each piece is allocated to you.


LMAO!!

Phat Repat said...

Sherlock
"I think they're going to be "dumber" because having and holding knowledge will become pointless in a world where you can ask Siri anything and get an answer."

Very good point. And one I use to emphasize, at least with those close to me that, knowledge (or information), is worthless without the ability to APPLY that knowledge/information. Something that does require a solid foundation and is unattainable, as of yet, through the black box.

"...Macklemore..."

Well, the song you reference is one example but "Same Love" and "And We Danced" then take things in a different direction. I do appreciate and promote tolerance and acceptance, I don't however believe that anything goes just because it happens to be fashionable or is being heavily promoted by the entertainment (and legal) industries.

Also, I don't recall ever being as vulgar as what we see among the ute today. They might have their own way of communicating, but society at large doesn't accept it; and that's all to their detriment. The vast majority of wealth is not held by the utes, and how that wealth is apportioned later is a reflection on their behavior now... There are no guarantees. ;-)

Reality Show said...

What's that Phat? Still busy thinking about where Michael's Steinway will sound best.
(I'm not convinced my British sense of humour always carries through text, but I have a disliking of the exclamation mark)

No, I think people need to learn to want less stuff, happiness is not derived from the external after all. Maybe it's more about what the super-organism can afford. Items are made more affordable to me because of all the faceless international workers who also have to pay with their sweat, their tears and their blood. All as an exploding population consumes the planet's wonderful resources. Ooo, almost felt the urge to use an exclamation mark.

I don't worry about our young, they are naturally strong, smart, caring and inventive.

!

Phat Repat said...

@RS
"...British sense of humour..."

Did you spell humor wrong?

Okay, don't consume. You sound a bit extreme.

Our young aren't naturally anything; they are the product of our efforts and the environment we expose them to. Of course, as adults, the rest is up to them.

byiamBYoung said...

@Reality Show,

Don't be shy, the water's warm!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See? Harmless.... !

"I don't worry about our young, they are naturally strong, smart, caring and inventive."

Yes, but if they are front-loaded with the conventional wisdom of the day, they are nothing more than fresh parrots.

Cheers

M said...

These tech devices make the smart and intellectual smarter and the dumb dumber. The dumb consumers always learn to be content with less, as long as its still as much as they can get. There is still lots of young smart people out there that have an interest in what is going on around them. I meet 20 year old oil workers who know about the Fed, they have a basic idea what is going on.They aren't fools.

Savers will be savers and debtors will still be debtors. I retract that statement... I honestly don't know very many savers these days.

M said...

One would think the basic workings of capitalism would have remedied something by now. Anything...

We all balk at the paper gold price. But the point of paper gold is to control physical gold. So as long as its doing that, which it is, then paper gold is winning and physical gold is losing.

The Fed wrote the report on how to control govt bond prices by suppressing gold. There isn't an iota of tension in the physical market.

The giants are all happy in treasury market so they aren't going to constrain physical supply. Evidently, shrimps the world over (unlike the 80's), don't have the ability to constrain supply, so they cant kill the paper market either. Eventually its going to happen but this is already a failure of capitalism.

Anonymous said...

The term "Capitalism" is yet another mental construct how to describe the very same old concept with few addon features of recent modernity. Since the dawn of time, the human experiment in its "civilization form" is only about the organization of the extortion racket, rent seeking arrangement, mafias or clubs how to prey on the sheeple. As we witness from the current trends the pie is getting smaller over time, and recently in pretty much accelerating fashion for the 99%, that's systemic and irreversable.

He who bets that as an noname outsider of the club will be allowed to keep potential windfalls by some wealth/asset juggling prior reboot is naive, perhaps some regional pocket exceptions apply. I'm also guilty - naive in the sense that "remote area" homesteading would be safe, in the short term after SHTF pretty much so, petty victory guaranteed, yeah! In the long run though, I'll be likely also overun by the events. There is no escape, beside selling the soul and in some capacity joining the Borg. No wonder FG/RPG if it comes will be of little use, by that ever delayed timeframe, social structures already derailed, beyond easy fix. It's not doomerism, but observation of just another flushing cycle. Some minority might make it no doubt about it, but pickup some history books at what costs, namely how hard you have to punish loosers bellow you to keep above water or even advance. Is anybody else here trying to be honest with him/herself, I highly doubt it.

Jeff said...

Giants aren't in gold for a windfall profit.

FOFOA: Imagine, Woland, that you woke up one day and discovered that you owned an oil field that would produce millions of barrels a day for the rest of your life. Would you consider that a windfall? In fact, that's exactly what it is. And with that windfall you will be able to raise your standard of living up to the greatest standard available to mankind in 2013. You will even be able to accumulate wealth on top of your unlimited "maximum consumption" binge. What a rare treat!

But what you won't be able to do is get the full windfall profit from moving your excess into physical gold that we shrimps can get. You already got your windfall. You simply have too much money to do what we're doing. If you tried to go "all in", you alone would drive the price so high that you'd never get the windfall you were after.

Jeff said...

FOFOA: 1. For the giants, the big banks/bankers and the sovereigns, China!, it is not a practical goal to convert 100% (or even 90% or 80%) into gold even if they know freegold is coming without a doubt. For us shrimps on FOFOA "all in" is a clever option. But not for the giants. A 15% "hedge" in physical gold is pretty darn good for them. At 100x reset level, even China's (WGC-reported) 2% doubles its reserves.

SE's never could go for full-stop conversion because there's just too much paper. China's reserves alone would take 40% of all the gold ever mined

Anonymous said...

Jeff,

You don't know any Giants.

BTW how are your personal investments doing? Still feeling pretty confident about YOUR windfall?

11/27/2013
Bitcoin: $1019/BTC
Gold: $1243/Oz
GTU: Discount currently -8.1% !!
YTD: Gold down -25%, Bitcoin up +7,700%


Reality Show said...

Humor? Two countries separated by the same language.

Reality Show said...

LiteCoin is doing well too athrone, and SuperLiteCoin launches tonight.

tEON said...

Jeff,
It's quite easy to deduce that athrone is nothing more than... a punk. He can't afford Gold and probably has 2 bitcoins which he will, undoubtedly, hold till it reaches its true intrinsic value; zero. We may not know any Giants, PERSONALLY, but this Forum sure has seen its share of Giant a**holes of late...
And as paper Gold drops further, the a**holes will breed, we may be over-run... and I predict they will eventually all disappear. Go extinct. Then the good Scotch will come out... as we hear Michael dV's guitar in the background...

DP said...

Nobody expects the Steinway guitar!

Anonymous said...

Gary,

So the emergence of digital currencies is so stupid that the only response is an ad hominem attack?

Again, we've already discussed your situation, where it seems your Gold holdings are << your other holdings. So I understand why you aren't pressed to take it as seriously.

Here's what I think: Another had no clue about digital currencies, he couldn't even have possibly even predicted it if he tried.

The market cap for Bitcoin is $11 Billion. That is 275 tonnes of Gold at present prices. Do you think 275 tonnes of Gold has an impact in the market?

If Bitcoin didn't exist, or rather, the possibility of digital currencies didn't even exist -- do you think the path of Gold would be different at all?

That question is open to anyone.

For the record, I have 0 bitcoins and heavy (unrealized) losses in Gold.

Anonymous said...

Consider that in 20 years, the "Giants" who own and understand Gold will all be dead, and the people who grew up using an iPhone and iPad since they were 2 years old will be their heirs.

tEON said...

@athrone
You're an ass. The fact that you don't know why you're an ass - is not for me, or anyone, to explain to you. You just don't get it. So be it.
So now the revolution is going to be in BTC instead of Silver - ho hum. Yeah, those Giants - who have been running the world for the past 300 years - are too stupid to realize everything you know and everything you don't know. You're just smarter than all of us... but that doesn't change the fact that you are an ass. I'm sorry.

Anonymous said...

In 2011 the average Ferrari buyer in the U.S. was 47 years old; in China, he was 32.

You forget that these "Giants" are actually a collection of real people. They are not infallible nor omnipotent. They can make mistakes and misjudge circumstances. They cannot always succeed in bending the entire planet to their will.

Was Another a Giant? Did he make a mistake? We already know he was wrong in his timing. Freegold has not emerged in 15 years since he said it would.

How many billionaires have lost their fortunes? When they die how often do their heirs continue their wishes?

I think you are living in a fairytale. What's real is the losses in Gold.

Dante_Eu said...

@athrone:

If there were no BitCoin, all that money going into BC now would go into gold? Is that what you are saying?

Because 99% of new BC buyers, which I see and read about, wouldn't touch gold no matter what. BC or no BC.

It could be Horse manure for all they care, going up and making some quick bucks.

You are comparing incomparable IMHO.

Anonymous said...

Dante_Eu,

I'm not saying that per se, and in some ways I hope you are right (since I hold Gold not Bitcoins). But I am worried about the emergence of a new competing currency that has some of the positive aspects of Gold. Before you had two choices: Fiat or Gold. Now you have three: Fiat, Gold, or Cryptocurrency.

Basically, I would feel a lot more comfortable holding Gold if digital currencies, or the prospect of digital currencies did not exist...

They are so new (less than 2 years) there is really no way to know what kind of impact they will have. Also, Bitcoin could just be a prototype, now that the idea has been seeded it could be something else that emerges...

tEON said...

@anthrone

In 2011 the average Ferrari buyer in the U.S. was 47 years old; in China, he was 32.

???

You obviously have no idea what a Giant is, anthrone - despite Jeff trying to educate you - and you, instead, mocking him. There is no 'average age' - they are generational - families consisting of young and old. They established, and are the shareholders of, the Central Banks. They have the license to print currency, accrue interest on it, and set interest rates. Do you realize how much power that entails? And they will give it up simply because of Bitcoin? If BTC was any threat they could, politically, have it crushed to zero in days.

What's real is the losses in Gold.

???

Have you been paying attention to nothing in this Forum? the paper price of Gold is going to crash. As the paper Gold market reaches its intrinsic value (think close to zero) - this will start the emergence of FG. Stop using the USD as your denominator (again) and panicking because the paper price is going down. IT IS SUPPOSED TO! - IT WILL CONTINUE It is a positive sign for FG for the paper Gold market to drop... how long have you been here that you would say something this backward?

Koyaanisqatsi Forum.

You want to capitalize on the BTC run-up - go right ahead. The risks are numerous, but what.ever.

@Gary - care to change your moniker to "The Evil One" - so I can go back to be plain old 'Gary'? Forget it - too confusing... just leave.

Anonymous said...

Gary,

Like Jeff, you do not know any Giants so talking about how they are, how they think, how their families are comprised, etc. is basically bullshit. The only Giant anyone knows on this board is Another, and he was wrong now 15 years and counting.

If you want to talk about Central Banks, how do you explain this:

Ben Bernanke’s letter to Congress: Bitcoin and other virtual currencies “may hold long-term promise”

http://qz.com/148399/ben-bernanke-bitcoin-may-hold-long-term-promise/

Anonymous said...

So Ben thinks Gold is a "barbarous relic" and Bitcoin "may hold future promise"?

The Government has every reason to hate Gold -- something they cannot easily confiscate or monitor.

On the other hand, I would think Bitcoin would be the Government's little darling since the NSA is monitoring the keystrokes of every person on the planet. I wouldn't be suprised if the NSA can confiscate bitcoins from anywhere on the planet in a matter of seconds, if they so choose.

How's that for power over a new currency?

tEON said...

@anthrone

Ben Bernanke is a puppet, anthrone, I'd trust everything he says.

If you are sold on digital currencies anthrone - go buy/mine/trade/excrete some... best of luck.

Jeff said...

CIGA Atroll, if you're in despair over the sinking POG, it's because as Gary (not FakeAnother) said, you're using the wrong numeraire. But then if you think a 7000% increase is what makes a good SoV, keep reading and asking questions. :)

Don't expect to see POG rise to $3500 or whatever number Rickards is touting. We aren't talking about a new bull market, but an overnight revaluation.

FOFOA: Yes, the revaluation of gold will be de facto instantaneous because of a shortage of physical. Physical gold is already "cornered" by the mere existence of so many dollars. But as long as there is enough flow at the top level at which it flows, the paper markets where traders operate will continue to function. The minute there is not enough physical flow at that top level, physical gold will be de facto revalued. But that doesn't mean we'll know the new price right away. All it means is that the phase transition has occurred. There's no turning back at that moment. We'll have passed the event horizon.

(...)

That's because revaluations always happen overnight and by surprise, which doesn't allow the traders (the army of unwitting arbitrageurs) the opportunity to act on their perceived profit opportunity as gold inches up. It takes their power away from them.

Dante_Eu said...

athrone,

LOL,

#31 "Bitcoin and other virtual currencies may hold long-term promise."

Check this out :)

M said...

@ Micmagicfly

You "The term "Capitalism" is yet another mental construct how to describe the very same old concept with few addon features of recent modernity."

A failure of the superorganism then.

The superorganism is failing to correct the imbalances to the point where it is cannibalizing itself. The longer it takes for it to work, the worse the collapse will be. The collapse will be so bad that it won't lead to market corrections or capital realignment.

Just like the globalization and boom after the 1st world war. The superorganism wasn't capable of overcoming the artificial forces around it. All over the world the great depression wrecked free markets. Bad regimes fell only to be replaced by worse ones. And wartime Keynesiansm and was born. It didn't lead to progress or anything "anti fragile" like Nasim Taleb talks about.

Once again, the superorganism is failing. It cant overcome the artificial forces soon enough to make a positive difference. It should have reined in Greenspans bailouts and low interest rates 15 years ago but it didn't. It should have reined in the paper gold market 10 years ago but it didn't. It should have reined in the US dollar in 2008 but it didn't. Its too late now.

(None of this doubts me on the freegold endgame)

Anonymous said...

Three mixed perspectives, three different universes.
First the old money, dynasties, centuries. Second, the new powerfull players on int. scene. Third the piggybackers, footsteps smurfs, the ants.

No need to rehash the first category.
Speaking of the second, for growth on steroid defined late comers on the global power stage like China, which can perhaps fasten or skew direction of events, is the whole oz. question just a part of the whole maturing process escapade. From Koos' translations it is clear they have dedicated to it increasing attention, strategic planing and resources say from 2006 and especially after 2008/9. That's in compliance with this blog's premise here. However, in contrast to their other areas of interest, infrustructure buildup, aerospace/defense, oil deals etc. it's just relatively smallish fraction, it's simply a hedge.

Now contrast it with the last, third category, a reval fixed junkie, he must go with progressively higher bet levels relative to his networth, otherwise it makes little sense, at least in the rational world of lower bracket reval probabilities (7-15x and up). Ergo it's by definition for this group a much more riskier bet, including that very hated dungeon of them all, the timing question.

Anonymous said...

M> feels like honest writeup, thanks for sharing this perspective.

Sam said...

Currencies distort value short term so if you value things in currency you don't understand value at all. Once you understand value it is very easy, bordering on common sense, to learn to think like those with great wealth (even without knowing one). It is intellectually lazy to think understanding comes only from direct experience or first hand knowledge. In fact i'd say Anecdotal evidence is often the worst teacher

MatrixSentry said...

The assholes, we know who they are, like to use the $USD in all denominators. This is their baggage.

On a certain level they know that the $USD is a pathetic store of value. Therefore their insistence in using them in all denominators forces them to "invest". They must chase yield and capital gain in order to justify the carriage of such a flawed SoV. This is their baggage. They must think of the hottest trade for their dollars to cycle through.

The assholes don't understand wealth. Nor do they understand saving. They pollute this blog with their sewage. They understand that this blog is for people quite unlike them. Freegolders are content to hold gold and leave the bitcoins, silver, ETF shares, mining shares, and all other non-wealth vehicles to others. They cannot be happy that they are smart investors and we are dumb savers. They must haunt our little corner of the internet so they can feel good about themselves and their "position".

The fuckers are weak minded and pathetic. Frankly I am tired of them polluting this blog. Gary's bullshit lasts as long as it takes for FOFOA to log on and delete his spew. Athone and McFly need to be given the hook as well. I hope FOFOA sees this and we will add those two assholes to the banned loser list. He is far more patient and tolerant than I am. I would drop the hammer on anyone who isn't trying to honor the spirit of this blog. For those who are unsure what the spirit is, please scroll to the top of the page and read the first words people see when they arrive.

Please do us all a favor, do not engage these assholes in anyway. Many here do not realize that there was once a time when serious men and women discussed serious topics on this blog. They have largely left because the assholes have been given center stage to perform. If this trend continues, nobody coming here will give this blog any credibility.

When FOFOA determines that he is wasting his time by serving up flame bait for trolls, he will simply pull the plug. It has happened before.

Please do not give the assholes credibility by debating or posting replies to them. Unplug from the comments section and spend your time RTFB. Time better spent.

t au said...

Well said!
Thank you Matrix.

Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tommy2Tone said...

*100 Matrix.

These fuckers are here only to muckrake.

look at this fucking stupidity:
"For the record, I have 0 bitcoins and heavy (unrealized) losses in Gold."

This dumbass invested in paper gold and comes here to whine about it.
Don't let his (unrealized) fool you. Only a paper trader thinks and writes like that. And this asshole has been here for years and still hasn't learned a damn thing.
Fuck off Assthrone, Gary, Spaul, Mcdumberer.

Fuckoff assholes.

Anonymous said...

jojo,

My unrealized losses are in physical bullion. Likely my losses are greater than your holdings. So if anyone is going to STFU I suggest it is you.

Comparing the quality of comments (profanity, complaining of trolls, ad hominem) it seems the two of you should be banned not I.

Matrix Sentry,

You think using $USD in the denominator is sewage? Well I'm sorry but I'm not 15 years away from retirement like you are. I can't just close my eyes and pretend the price of my assets doesn't matter. Would you be talking like this if you were retiring next year and not the next decade? Where would you have your assets parked in that case, if not Gold? How can you say with a straight face that worrying about a 40% drawdown in the mark-to-market price of your assets is "sewage"?

The price of Gold in $USD does matter for some people and it's not a fairytale reason.

tEON said...

@athrone

The price of Gold in $USD does matter for some people and it's not a fairytale reason

Then, you are not buying as much gold as you understand... or as you feel comfortable. Buy less AU and buy whatever other vehicle you feel comfortable with to retire in X years; Bitcoins, baseball cards, whatever. Just stop whining to those of us that DO understand.... if you have not got this by now - you are beyond our help, IMO.

Sam said...

@athrone

You are so emotional about this. I am shocked you own so much gold. IMHO you should sell most of it and invest in things that earn you a really good annual return. When freegold hits you will still have a nice windfall but in the meantime with the right balance of your investments your physical gold dollar losses will be offset by your other investment gains so you can have a positive nominal return in your net worth of dollar months after month and year after year.

The way I see it you are not like most of us here. We all just want to own as many gold coins as we can as soon as we can. If I can buy more next month at anywhere near todays prices I'm a buyer. If you are confused as to why we think this way I can't help you at this point. I personally think you are plagued by a weak belief that the freegold phase transition is actually going to happen. It's causing you to think you are wrong about buying gold all the way up until you get lucky and are right. I'd hate to feel that way. Maybe you don't think freegold is going to happen at all. In that case you are really making a bad investment with gold. As FOFOA said any future crisis will be deflationary and unless gold is going to be used as we here at this blog think it will, I'd expect it to drop like ever other asset. For gold, it's freegold or bust =)

byiamBYoung said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
byiamBYoung said...

What in the world motivates a troll? They have to understand that their posts will be deleted, sometimes almost immediately. Three possibilities come to mind:

1- They get a thrill from seeing their posts, although they are almost immediately deleted, and the public humiliation they suffer is a sick bonus.

2- They are afflicted with some form of obsessive-compulsive disorder, and can't resist the impulse.

3- They are compensated for posting.

I think that's the whole list. I don't know which option describes our troll(s), but all three are a little disturbing.

I scroll past them. Bada-Bing.

Cheers

M said...

For another topic...

I still don't believe that sovereign wealth funds just get their money from tax revenue and tariffs like it was suggested here a long time ago.

Sovereign wealth fund collude with their central banks. They get their money through their own open market operations by soft pegging currencies and keeping the difference. This is what the giants don't want to give up.

Maybe they all have an agreement to incrementally dis-hoard just enough physical to keep the paper gold market going. They even had enough to make Hugo Chaves whole.

BaronSilverBaron said...

As a holder of Gold and waiting for the "reset" I was wondering if it had been and gone and passed me by?

With Bitcoin going past $1000 I was thinking that this is where the "reset" happened.

I'm sure that FOA and Another never envisaged Bitcoin on their trail.

Anonymous said...

BSB> when central wanker signals he is about to be in love with cryptos, it's like Hollywood's sweat talk about Piratebay, run for the alpine meadows.

For the cryptos, It's perhaps combo of several things, live-run testing how crowds react to crazy revals (and following busts), also likely operation of waving with fig leaf at times of more important ongoing crimininality and shufling in the markets at times of brutal financial repression (no where to hide). However, if cryptos are legit, plus we are transforming into cornucopian future of endless material wealth incl. rising or at least stabilizing energy per capita, that means this blog is totally wrong 100% on everything, which I don't advocate, otherwise I'd not still hang out around. But those two given conditions for longterm cryptos success are preposterous given the evidence from the material world and recent info how are indeed all the markets rigged. So go figure. My answer: yet another delay tactis, diversion, test run.

Michael dV said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael dV said...

and Athrone
pick up and instrument and learn to play, do something during this long wait to take your mind off the ticking clock...

Michael dV said...

athrone
I'm past retirement age but still working, I understand the problem. I too got in above today's prices and I can't add to the hoard much now as I used profit plan funds buy to gold and had to pay heavy taxes.
I did all of this knowing what the outcome could be.
If freegold reset is 10 years off I will have to be very frugal.
Of course we all here who understand what we are doing and why we are doing it should have known this was a possibility.
I could had just stayed in stocks but there was a risk to that also. If you were in the market the past 15 years you know that.
Yes I wish I had waited until now to buy but I would have had many sleepless nights as I wondered if the transition was going to happen overnight.
In reflection I am satisfied to have done what I did.
As for timing, fofoa is too smart to say this but I will, I don't think we make it half way into next year without a major breakdown. That might not be immediate FG but it should herald its arrival.
The loss of physical from GLD, the near disaster in the derivative market with just the mention of a taper in the Fed's QE-ing and the very extended stock market are all signs. We could see the DOW hit 50,000 but we know that would just be hyperinflation in the mid stages.
Remember....there is risk on all sides of your actions. No one can take that risk away. Time will, I believe, prove the freegold perspective correct. I know 2 smart people who have joined the parade this past year, they finally 'got it'.
If it does somehow stretch out to several years I could have to dip into the gold to pay bills. It would take many years to deplete my stash however. I won't be happy but I'll have to do it. With each year that passes I'll be a bit closer to FG.
If you truly understand FG you are just going to accept reality. I think you do understand so instead of worrying, have beer and watch the show. What is happening is the most exciting show of the past 1500 years. It is going to be really exciting and we are as well positioned as anyone can be. Keep a journal. When this is over you'll want people how hard it was to survive. If you have grandkids you'll want them to know that you were not just some lucky guy who happened to have gold. They should know of the intellectual struggle you fought and the derision you endured and the emotional toil you suffered to make their lives better.
Every night before you go to sleep browse the Leer jet brochure. Pick yours out and try to guess if you can pick one up cheap when you are the only guy around with capital....or maybe sailboats or Greek Islands are your thing.
Mix the worry, which is a little irrational (knowing what you know) with some fantasy which is also a little irrational (cuz we ain't there yet.)
My predictions have all been wrong when it came to timing and my 'intuition' sucks too. Unlike earthquake prediction though we at least have numbers we can follow...and they all say the system is under tremendous stress. Let the system stress...me I'm going for the Leer 8000, seats 19...whooo hooo

Michael dV said...

Jeff
Try this
Divide the dollars in outstanding treasuries held by sovereigns by the number of ounces left in GLD. Be sure your calculator has good exponential capabilities(cuz the numbers get huge).
I get over $250,000 dollars an ounce. This is the value of the gold there if all the countries that hold treasuries decide to politely divest of bonds and buy the last remaining stash of gold that can be pried out of the system.
If it gets nasty and panic ensure I could see a blip into the millions/ ounce...and why not, if you knew the dollar would be worthless soon you would at least like to get something for all your reserves.
This is not likely to be the future purchasing power of gold but it could happen on the dollars way out.

Jeff said...

BSB,

You're the second person on the thread to say that A/FOA couldn't have imagined digital currencies. That's not true; just go to the archives and search for digital currencies. They come up a lot, and the ones A/FOA knew are a lot larger, systemically critical, more accepted, and easily used than Bitcoin. So my question, BSB, is this: who needs BTC?

FOA: Today, modern commerce has evolved to the point that paper "digital" settlement is the cornerstone of an efficient trading system. Indeed, without international computer settlement, using fiat currencies, our system would not function. Too this end, our modern commerce and lifestyles require "digital" currencies and that need imparts a new value to their use and existence.

Therefore, this modern reserve "digital paper currency" will not be backed using a fixed amount or price of gold, rather it will "use gold" as a real money reserve. A reserve that can be traded, lent or retained as national savings. As such, any world "free market" value rise of gold will only be seen as an "good" increase in savings and therefore better "reserves" for a national society. Not to mention any "physical gold savings" held by the private citizen.

The modern reserve currency will be in demand for trade settlement in conjunction with gold, but will not be in competition with it. Their values will move up and down against each other using their true attributes. Gold as a "real wealth settlement money of slower speed" and Euros as a "modern digital money of high speed".

Jeff said...

And for those who say 'hard digital money FTW', we say #FFWTF.

FOA: ORO, fiat currency today is little more than a future contract (I posted on this before) of human production. Yet, our SOL (standard of living) could not exist without it. Presently we are in a transition between "wealth money concept" and "digital money concept". History has proven over and over that fiat money can never be a valuable as "real wealth". Through out time, everything real we own has represented both out wealth and a spend able (tradable) money, gold included. Early on, paper money had no other purpose than to represent real things in contract form. Today, even with all it's government manipulations, that paper settles high speed trade better than real wealth contracts (dollars backed by gold?) because it can match the efficiency advancements with a growing money supply. And do so without revalueing the currency upward (deflation) in the way hard money requires. It's a hard perception to stay with, I know, but people have proven that they want their currency to stay even with economic function, not move up in value against it. Modern humans (not necessarily western) would rather hold their wealth in part in real things (gold) and settle trade in digital currency.

There is a precedent to this even in the history of our world gold supply. As a pure hard wealth money, it does increase in amounts (ounces mined) over time. During the old world growth rates this could have worked, but gold supply cannot match modern advancements without rising in value far higher than even I project. Truly, digital currencies can work for a modern world, if only they are not backed to gold in contract (fixed gold standard) form. Most of this latter days currency problems have been in trying to keep a "hard digital money concept". It has not worked.

Robert said...

"Better to be a decade too early than a day too late."

Then again, better to be two decades to early than a day too late.

BaronSilverBaron said...

@mcmagicfly
What you have written is very impressive. I wish I had the intelligence to understand it.

BaronSilverBaron said...

As I'm a longterm investor in that store of wealth (Gold) that is continually declining I keep pondering on the thought that I could have bought 1000 Bitcoins at $1 each and now be a millionaire. (story of my life I guess).
Knowing my luck I would be rubbing my hands at all of that windfall Bitcoin wealth only to lose it all as the "authorities" suddenly react and launch a Stuxnet virus to smash the Bitcoin world.
I presume this is what will eventually happen.

BaronSilverBaron said...

@Jeff
Sorry Jeff. I obviously missed that part when FOA said that there would be a digital currency outside the control of the banking world and governments.

Jeff said...

'outside the control of the banking world and governments.'

So you assume that this is the current state of affairs, and will be true in the future, and is desirable in the first place. You're right, FOA never said that. So, again, BSB, what exactly is the need that BTC meets? I mean besides the famous ones such as paying for illegal drugs and assassinations; what exactly will allow it to compete with the heavyweights?

FOA: I don't propose three world currencies and neither do our Euroland friends. There is only room for one world reserve "digital" currency that would take on the trade settlement functions of our present dollar system. We understand that the Euro alone will become that "digital settlement reserve currency".

tEON said...

@BaronSilverBaron

As I'm a longterm investor in that store of wealth (Gold) that is continually declining I keep pondering

Understanding this, particular, FG concept seems, to me at least, to be the easiest - and I am continuously dumbfounded each time someone brings it up.

Baron, if you bought physical Gold expecting a Rickards (and entire Gold community) price rise - then this should reinforce that 'they' (Sprott, Sinclair, Turk et all) have been totally incorrect in the short term and don't understand what is actually going on at all. The lone voice on this has been FoFoA (I reiterate - interview last year and Jan 1st post this year). We will see a top-down movement in the paper-price of Gold, not bottom-up. Exactly what is transpiring.

Focusing on 'continually declining wealth' is a weak-hand position only seeing things in USD terms and I suspect you, anthrone etc. will be far more likely to give up your physical stash at the most inopportune time.

For Gold to be revalued - the paper market Gold must collapse. At the same time this occurs it will become very difficult to buy. If Gold goes to $7,000 (Rickards) then the paper market will still be in control and physical Gold is, actually, further away from being "set-free". You can't have it both ways - you either desire FG - meaning your Gold will decline in USD terms (grin and bear it) or you want the paper price to escalate and we don't achieve the true separation from the paper constructs required for FG. The former is going to happen - so my advice would be to prepare for this contraction of your wealth in USD or sell now and only hold the physical Gold you are comfortable with as the price declines (and it becomes increasingly scare to obtain).

The imminent collapse of most of the miners, the declining paper price and the drain of GLD - all fit like an obvious puzzle and state what FoFoA has spelled out succinctly and clearly for those who follow his words (and, incidentally, gain the enormous benefit).

My advice would be don't get sidetracked by calculating your Net wealth in dollar-terms - simply hoard the ounces and 'live your life'. Each $10 off SPOT and each tonne removed from GLD should be a positive sign to you. If you can't get your head around this concept or feel it is too risky - perhaps you shouldn't be holding gold... at all. Try the equities - the DOW is going to go to the moon before this is over - so will BTC probably. All nominal, IMO but with your attitude you will 'feel' comforted (for a while) with $s in the bank.

Gold will become the most hated asset in the West's investment community (if it is not already.) Trying to leverage paper gold on margin has cost many their entire wealth. That group is going to get larger...

Perhaps this is the penance of the FG'er - at accept this - and why there will be so few of us the day of revaluation. They will get almost all of them into the US$ bomb shelter before it explodes.

Roacheforque said...

Bitcoin is popular with the little people today mostly because it represents an "appreciating currency" in a zirp, inflationary environment. Thje more it appreciates, the more popular it becomes - the more popular it becomes the more it appreciates. It represents "value by herd instinct"
Monetary authorities love Bitcoin for the very same reason. Value determined by herd instinct represents the same opportunity as tech stocks in 1999 or real estate in 2004. Yes these are bubbles but the larger point is these are "thoughts blowing in the wind", just like today's anti-bubble gold. This blog seems riddled of late with "thoughts blowing in the wind" about the true purpose and value of gold, simply because sentiment has been driven in a negative direction. Yes it is easy to do that when currencies (debt) still price gold, and still serve as a means of exchange to acquire tangible assets.

So by all means if you wish to increase your tangible assets and think that Bitcopin is still in a "ground floor price opportunity" then buy it, wait for it to appreciate and acquire solid tangible assets with the winnings.

You are winning the battle of "more thoughts blowing your way" if that's your game to play, and if you get before thoughts blow in a different direction you will "be ahead".

But there is a more solid reference point for value than "socialized sentiment". Until debt fails in the international settlement arena, the thoughts about it's value and purpose blow in the direction of "I'm not getting ahead" which is correct if your sole source of getting ahead is "investing".

If that is the case, I would suggest you stop "investing" in physical gold and go for Bitcoin. there is some risk involved, as in anything, but you can certainly gain more tangible assets in the near term than by holding gold.

Roacheforque said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BaronSilverBaron said...

@Gary,
I'm neither a strong hand or a weak hand. I'm just an ordinary person trying to make sense of the World and to stay away from poverty.
I don't believe anyone has the "certain" answer.
If Gold was going through the roof every pundit and holder would be shouting "how clever we are".
At the moment Gold is declining and every pundit has a million excuses and is on the defensive (except Martin Armstrong who sees it just as a normal cycle).
I hope the people who say the "great reset" is going to happen but I'm not holding my breath.
I certainly didn't buy Gold because I thought it would decline in value. I suspect most of the people on this site didn't think "Oo goody lets buy Gold and watch our wealth disappear".
I'm also sure that most of the people here are hoping to get rich pretty soon so they go along with the idea of a sudden reset NOT a drawn out endless decline over many years.
Don't get me wrong I'm betting on the "get rich quick scenario" as my big chance to beat the system.
I'm not a religious follower of the FOA and A ideas but I hope they're right and soon.
I don't like this decline of Gold thing. I want a complete crash of Gold and a quick reset.
IfI could have got rich with Bitcoins I would have but I'm stuck with my Gold bet and must see it through to the end.

Roacheforque said...

BSB,
When I look at my gold, I do not see "my wealth disappearing".
But many oddly do, even though nothing has changed about its physical properties since a million years before I came to possess it.

I trust that there are many like you who see their wealth dissapearing, and I can guarantee you that they will buy it at the prevailing paper price.

In fact, even if gold goes to 150K$ per ounce, there will be buyers.

But if bitcoin "goes to 20K" will you buy one? if not, it will never go to 20K.

I value gold by something different than the managed paper price. I value it by it's current unquencheable demand dynamic and unprecedented flow at these agreed upon dollar prices.

When the agreements between China and the BIS are satisfied, minds will indeed be changed.

tEON said...

@BaronSilverBaron

I don't believe anyone has the "certain" answer.

I have a friend you says the same thing - he still listens to the Jim Sinclairs of this world - despite our host's remarkable call in this year alone. Good grief, if you are not confident in FG, you better diversify.... to feel better. Don't stay in Gold so you can complain about your losing wealth. That doesn't make sense.

If Gold was going through the roof every pundit and holder would be shouting "how clever we are".

Which would only prove their (and your) lack of understanding about FG.

...watch our wealth disappear

As I tried to infer, in vain, you should change your definition of wealth...

...NOT a drawn out endless decline over many years

Then you are trying to time this - get out now - paper gold is only going lower. It may collapse this year or when your children are grandparents. If you need a date - you, seriously, can't expect anyone to give it to you. You are nervous - change your 'investment' to something where you are not nervous (and best of luck with that one)

If I could have got rich with Bitcoins...

Perhaps, you and I have a very different concept of the word 'rich'. You think it is being something denominated in USD - I think it is owning real assets with intrinsic value outside of USD. You can probably still 'get rich' (your def.) in BTC. Go for it!

I don't like this decline of Gold thing

Then get out... go buy BTC or something that is going up...

Either you get this or you don't - there won't be any middle ground. As Gold goes below $1000 you will feel worse and I will feel fantastic. As it goes below $700 you will be suicidally distraught and, probably, sell (heeding the 'barbarous relic' crowd assuring you Gold's day is 'over')... do it now and go surf the BTC Forums, take anthrone with you... I think you should do what makes you happy. You don't sound happy holding Gold - after all it's going down - right?

Robert said...

Gary, I would be wary about lumping in Rickards with the KWN crowd. Rickards is also expecting a revaluation, and he threw out the $7000 figure as the number required for gold to theoretically back currency reserves. He was not predicting a bull market run to $7000.

How is his position different from FOFOA's? He thinks there can be an orderly reset and revaluation. He does not see the paper market collapsing. Could he be right? He repeatedly says that when TPTB realize the current system is not working they will sit down and negotiate the rules of the next global monetary system.

Of course that would be just another can-kicking exercise, right? Exactly what governments and central banks always do! If there was an orderly reset, FG might still be inevitable, but a negotiated revaluation figure might kick the FG timeline way out.

Why can't this happen?

tEON said...

How is his position different from FOFOA's?

Rickards' interview with Casey Research in 2012: "Gold will trend higher in 2013, but at a modest pace and with the usual volatility."

That is, just, one way in how they differ.

RevolutionOfNations said...

Episode 5 of Mike Maloney's Hidden Secrets of Money series is out. Share it with your fellow earthlings.
http://www.hiddensecretsofmoney.com/

tEON said...

@Robert

Full 2012 quote from Rickards:

Gold will trend higher in 2013, but at a modest pace and with the usual volatility. The catalyst for a spike into the $2,500 to $3,000 price range will be an announcement by China, probably in late 2013 or 2014, that they have acquired 4,000 tonnes or more in their official reserve position. This will put China on an equal footing with the US in terms of a gold-to-GDP ratio and validate gold as the real foundation of the international monetary system. Once that position is validated, gold will move to the $7,000 range in 2015 and beyond. Any lower price level is deflationary and must be avoided at all costs by central banks. The key is that the US and IMF do not want gold to achieve its full potential price until China has acquired its appropriate "share" of official gold reserves. Any other outcome is unacceptable to China.

Rickards is also expecting a revaluation

Never heard the word 'revaluation' or 'reset' in that speech - can you send me a link where he does?

How is his position different from FOFOA's?

It (the above prediction) sure doesn't sound like a top down reset to me... who's been right, so far (2013 is almost over), Robert? FoFoA or Rickards?

Robert said...

For Gary:

" The international monetary system actually has collapsed three times in the past 100 years. It collapsed in 1914, again in 1939, and again in 1971, so it wouldn’t be that unusual or unexpected for that to happen again. When it happens, by the way, it doesn’t mean we all go to caves and eat baked beans. What it means is that the major financial powers and trading powers sit down and they reform the system. They have to recut their decks, so to speak, and one of the interesting questions to me is, what will that future international monetary system look like?"

"One of the most important things that they are going to have to do, whether this is done by the G20 or the IMF, is that they are going to have to get the price of gold right, and it is really 8th grade math. You just divide the amount of gold by the money supply and that gives you the price per ounce. And there were some technical questions there. When you say money supply, do you mean M0, M1, or M2? You have to answer that because they are all different. And when you say backed by gold, what percentage backing? 100%? 40%? 20%? We can debate all those, and they are all different, but given those variables, given those inputs, I’ve done this math, the indicative price of gold is at the low end, $3000 an ounce, and at the high end, $45,000 an ounce, depending on who is in the club, what countries participate, what definition of money you use, what backing you use. I expect that gold will be $7000 an ounce. That’s kind of middle of the road, but that is the nondeflationary price of gold based on current quantities of gold in the current money supplies to support world trade without deflation. It’s not going to happen tomorrow, but if we do go back to the gold standard, and you want to avoid the mistake of the 1920s, you are going to have to get the price right, and the indicative price, based on all the information we have, is about $7000 an ounce."

http://mcalvanynews.com/june-26-2013-james-rickards-currency-wars-and-7000-gold/

And remember, Rickards has theorized about a number of different scenarios.

tEON said...

@Robert,

Yeah - can't find the word 'reset' or 'revaluation' again. Perhaps it would hinder his, supposed, 'insider status'. :)

And remember, Rickards has theorized about a number of different scenarios.

1000 monkeys - there will be a clip of him being right somewhere which he, no doubt, will capitalize on. Yeah, I agree, he can't seem to stick to one prediction, and yes he has been way off in the short term (2013 Gold price as one example). I listen to him but don't give him excessive weight. I don't think he sees FG as many here do.

What I like about Rickards is not his inaccurate paper Gold price calls - but his defense of the Euro and seeing it's long term resilience - he frequently reminds ZH of that, mockingly, in his Tweets. But he has been right in that area. His 'over-selling' of his book kinda makes me put him on the back-burner. He has an agenda. Who knows if he is telling the real truth? or just 'selling'? I don't worry about that here and although you didn't respond to my question - we both know who gave the important, accurate, prediction this year...

Robert said...

Gary, by your impossible standards even FOFOA would be discredited. Everybody gets some things wrong (yes, even FOFOA). But so what? Views evolve. Perspectives change. Isn't that what the gold trail is all about? I am not looking for a guru to tell me what to think. I am not looking for someone with a perfect track record of short term calls.

And no, I will not humor you by wasting another minute doing research for you. Read Rickards' quote and think for yourself. Even though he does not use the words reset or revaluation, it is obvious that is what he is talking about.

KnallGold said...

8th grade math and x complicating paragraphs, my dear. The american fixation on numbers and fixation on fixing. No fix, no kix?

Versus: 1g of free market Gold, prices x floating currency units. FG RPG would be so easy.

Either some folks crave for kicking the can (agenda?) or are desperate for optimism in this low POG phase.

On the news front, "CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela's central bank president denied on Thursday that Caracas is carrying out any transactions with Wall Street banks, a day after a senior government source said it was evaluating a swap agreement involving its gold reserves..."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/venezuela-central-bank-denies-transactions-163501331.html

It might have been able to lift POG in anticipation, oh well then more drowning...

psst, my secret device says defcon orange, although its a very old school device of good observation, gut and sképsis (Greek for "looking closer"). Michael dV seems to agree.

POG below mining costs, leading inevitable to lower supply, GLD drain getting more critical (lease line?), that graph (where was it?) about China demand versus supply x close to crossing, other death crosses: right now all core indicators run in one direction and from the other side the time scale compresses back with it.

To one attractor.

But how do you detect the event horizon? Nature has it that its a thin line. Check out non-Gold holders for smearing out to string like appearance.

Black hole sun, won't you come...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mbBbFH9fAg

tEON said...

@Robert,

Rickards is also expecting a revaluation

I don't know that he is. You can assume what you want. His bottom-up call won't happen and like the rest of the pundits in the AU community - he has no idea why. A revaluation doesn't mean it goes 'steadily up' (2012 quote) to $2000, then $2500... and 'eventually' $7,000 by 2015. The "eventual reaching" price doesn't mean a revaluation - it means it builds to it. Revaluation is overnight. If he truly believes the $7,000 figure why does he always end every interview with 'you should only have 10% holdings in Gold, 15% if you are aggressive? Why? because he is covering his ass for when the prediction is wrong!!!

Why, in the world would you think he would be correct in this regard after the, miserably wrong, 2012 quote about Gold in 2013?? Why doesn't your antennae go up and say 'Hmmm... maybe this Rickards guy has no idea... and FoFoa does?"

wasting another minute doing research for you

Why am I supposed to do Rickards' research? Sounds like you looked and found nothing to support your statement. He is vague in the quote you left, hence you can't find the defining words. Sorry that you could not prove it with direct quotes using the term 'reset' or 'revaluation'. That is not my problem, Robert!

How is his position different from FOFOA's?

Sorry if my direct quotes showed you the difference... and you didn't like it.

Sorry I showed you Rickards' incredibly poor, generic, 2013 Gold prediction, and you still believe in this guy... and won't give FoFoA his due credit.

You and McFly are welcome to start a Blog on the great Jim Rickards and all his prophetic, book-flogging, knowledge. This blog is about 'A Tribute to the Thoughts of Another and his Friend' - two individuals Rickards has never mentioned and you fail to acknowledge. Please go do some more diversifying... JR (who claims you should have no more than 10% in Gold, BTW even though it will be be up 600% - according to him - in two years) would be proud of you...

BaronSilverBaron said...

@Rocherforque
"When I look at my gold, I do not see "my wealth disappearing"."

We all have a way of justifying our decisions. The above statement is your way of keeping yourself in the comfort zone.

Good luck to you. If it makes you happy stick with it.

I presume if it ever reaches $55,000 an ounce you will say "I'm not really rich it's just an event on the way to being $200 again.

BaronSilverBaron said...

@Gary
It seems I have to "get" something. It seems I have to have the revelation that Gary has. Why?

It seems whatever someone says they have to follow the ideology otherwise they are "ignorant".

It seems that if I do not worship at the same alter of Gary I am a lesser person who should be shown the error of my ways.

Lighten up sunshine. We all have our opinions.

Dim said...

RE: BTC soon to overtake price of gold

If I had the choice...I would want a bitcoin more than a paper ounce anyway. Knowing where each is going...:)

tEON said...

@BaronSilverBaron

Lighten up sunshine. We all have our opinions.

Right back at ya... if you don't want a response to those opinions - don't post them. This isn't a place to, only, vent. Just trying to help you come to grips with your perception. You seemed dissatisfied / unhappy with your Gold investment. What did you want? only agreement? I tried to explain my lens on FG - you don't appear appreciative. Is your name ironic? Are you also a Silver holder? If so, you have my condolences. Best of luck to you. To all of us.

One Bad Adder said...

From one who got "into Gold" @ c $300 / Oz, can I say the consensus then was that the "Price" would drop further ...however, knowing (from experience) the effort required in getting an Oz "to-hand" was then ...commercially and otherwise ...a non-starter, we loaded up the Boat.
As an erstwhile casual miner / fossicker IMHO, the best way to acquire Gold bullion was then ...and still is, to simply BUY IT!
It's the Wealth-of-Nations for goodness sake! ...no Luck / Risk involved!
Let the pretenders come ...and go (as they most-assuredly will)

Ken_C said...

OBD - I too do a little mining of gold when I get a chance. Placer mining and some metal detecting. As you say the easiest way to acquire is just to buy it. Digging it out of the ground is HARD work. However, there is nothing quite as exciting as a good clean up with lots of gold at the end of a hard days work.

Ken_C said...

Reading through the archives I came across this:

FOA (05/06/2000; 16:45:21 MDT - Msg ID: 20) For Your Eyes Only!





I also own some gold stocks (smile)

But own them in a portion and for a reason that any leading gold mine executive can only crave:

"they are held not for trading and in small enough portion that they will never be sold".

In effect, we own their product first and foremost for the real world, long term leverage it represents. We own a share in their business with a far away view across the "coming currency war valley". In the middle of that valley, amiss the war, we expect some of these businesses to survive by changing into the Euro world. But, most all of them will experience a crushing collapse in equity values during the war. My view to the other ridge sees a gold price, so high, that it will eventually overcome taxation, government production controls and even the failing dollar based contract gold market. Even though these shares will plunge "in the valley", my holdings are such a percentage that I will own them "through it all".
This is why I own only a few of the very best and one in particular.

It got me to wondering which miners that FOA may own and why. Especially the ONE in particular.

I too own some miners. They were purchased before I understood the good reasons not to buy miners and yes they have declined in value substantially. I am not too worried about it because I also have some physical gold that I have no intention or need to sell. However, it would be nice to have some understanding of which miners FOA thinks may survive the transition and why.

Speaking of not selling any gold: I have never sold any of gold the I bought or the placer gold that I have personnally dug up. I have however had it made into some very nice jewellery for gifts to family members. For example, I had a birth stone pendant made for my daughters birthday using about one ounce of placer gold nuggets. Her response and appreciation was worth more than I ever could have sold it for. Some things are worth more than money.

said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wk37axdpHY

Pretty funny video. Sorry if it was already posted here.

Robert said...

Gary, I think you have the wrong mindset and that your thinking is too inflexible. But hey, whatever works for you and whatever gives you confidence. Good luck. I hope things work out precisely in the way you expect them to work out.

Michael dV said...

I have yet to hear Rickards speak when he did not state that it would be the SDR that becomes the SoV in the new currency regime. He i confused and I give him no attention.
He may have connection but if he does and they are listening to him…I suspect he'll have some splainin' to do.
My guess is that Rickards doesn't have a full, well rounded view. He and every other gold writer all say similar things with no real underlying idea of how the world is moving. Point to notice is that none of them discuss the significance of the structure of the ECB balance sheet.

Anonymous said...

Robert> I salute your displayed goodwill but as been demonstrated numerous time before some are just stuborn to listen into any arguments. Rickards is clearly speaking about reset of the system and RPG.

Michael> Sorry, that's again dishonest statement, clearly Rickards puts there several variants, and it's a few minute job to verify in just the plentifull videographed appearances of him this year he mentions SDR as a possible output, but with smaller chances against the other, simply the world is past that SDR gimmick option today. I guess from the late summer? Bratislava talk it's pretty apparent, this has been linked and talked about several times here already.

So, lets stick to the conclusion everybody comprehends from listening to the same tape something completely different, what a rational discourse.


But that aside, how do you all process the latest info on the biggest on record drop of lending to companies in the EMU? The trajectory is quite shocking, the acceleration in countries fragmentation as well, it has been reposted on ZH, source SocGen. This for sure looks like the undersee deflamoster is about to be shaken up in its cage to signal the start of monsters feeding time. I can't fantom a rational player favoring RPG in such environment, so the Euros will have to come pretty quickly with some yet another delay tactics for Q1-Q2 2014.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-28/there-just-no-escape-mario-draghis-monetary-zombie-nightmare


Also, Koos has up nice Kissinger minutes posted.
We can see the process, how the Euros folded for the first time in this game, and likely the pecularities why they continue in similar fashion and for same reasons in following instances like late/early 1990s/2000s, and now. However, today there is China and few others, so it won't be on strictly Euros terms in the final hour, they lost their opportunity to act.
http://www.ingoldwetrust.ch/minutes-of-kissinger-meeting-on-gold-1974

(Fly from another PC) - in case this was meant as silent ban from the forum, it just shows that vulgarities and profanities of groupies have been put above more civil discussion, so I still hope this was just a glitch..

BustinStones said...

yawn... "Gold is the only money the world has ever known" Sounds like a simple thought but it isn't . -Another-

Beer Holiday said...

Nice comment BustinStones :-)

Why are we here?

Anonymous said...

Three interesting recent tweets from Jim Rickards, who has apparently been on a visit to the Swiss gold vaults:


Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards
Insights from #Swiss: Euro mega-rich not buying lots of #gold now. They loaded up at $500, keep it in deep storage, waiting for global reset

Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards
Summary of global #gold flows: Americans selling, Chinese buying, Europeans have theirs already, not selling, sitting tight.

Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards
Did a deep dive in physical #gold flows this week. My prior conclusion is unchanged. When you really want it, there will be none to be had.

Robert said...

minilarvae, I think Rickards is definitely talking reset and revaluation, but not necessarily RPG. RPG is what you get when the paper market fails and physical gold is truly set free. I think Rickards sees a possibility that there could be a negotiated revaluation, one which preserves the paper market, before we ever get to the point that the first Giant runs out the front door of the bank shouting "The bank has no gold." His figure of $7000 is based on the assumption of the paper market continuing (and without the big rush down the Exter Pyramid). In other words, $7000 is a conservative figure based on "kick the can" reset/revaluation. If all hell breaks loose before a negotiated revaluation (which is a premise of Freegold but which Rickards does not seem to see as a likely outcome), then sure, the sky's the limit.

Knotty Pine said...

Regarding Jim Rickards,

I think Rickards is closer to Freegold than many here believe. We often talk about seeing the world differently once one understands this blog. Seeing the world through the freegold lens. Rickards does not see the world exactly this way mainly because his job is to see macroeconomics from the perspective of currency management. Freegold in part means a free floating price of gold pricing currency. My thinking is that when Rickards says things like "fixed rate" and "getting the price right" he is describing a currency managers targeted exchange rate for a given time period. Isn't a currency issuer responsible for helping users of said currency plan ahead?

Rickards often describes a system where the exchange rate would have to be periodically adjusted as determined by the market price of gold. I think when freegolders hear things like "fixed exchange rate" it sounds like a currency issuer managing the gold price but the way I have heard Rickards describe (in one of his scenarios) it is the market price of gold signaling the currency manager as to necessary periodic adjustments. In other words a currency manager must be somewhat reactive but it is the market price of gold valuing currency not the other way around.

Rickards does offer several scenarios but I think he may be closer to freegold than many of us think. As to which scenario he views most likely I couldn't say.

tEON said...

@Robert

Gary, I think you have the wrong mindset and that your thinking is too inflexible.

Hi Robert! Actually that seems like a compliment as it means my resolve toward FG is more assured. I apologize if it comes across as arrogance. You may find many such individual attitudes on this blog. I realize that you have not embraced FG and hence your strategy is more unsure and you lean to diversification. I, also, hope you do well!

As I've said - Rickards makes sense on the Euro but his Gold comments seem restrained - as if he is being held back.

One thing Aaron reminded me of regarding Rickards, and his difference with FoFoA is embodied in this statement by JR "they are going to have to get the price of gold right!" putting Rickards in the camp of a centrally planned gold standard where some government (be it China or the US) choose a specified value for the price of Gold (his further comment 'it has to be higher than X or it will cause deflation'). FoFoA recognize the revaluation won't be determined by anything but the marketplace - no entity, no government, no 'they'. Physical Gold will rise to its free market-determined value once the paper Gold market implodes and there is little phyz to be found.

Michael dV also makes an excellent point about the Rickards and the SDR which, even if adopted, cannot resolve the debt overhang. At best it would be temporary and wouldn't alter the adoption of FG.

So with Mr Rickards, despite his Gold advocacy and mainstream appearances (ie. book promotion) and latest tweets, he has some major issues at odds with the precise logic of the FG thesis and even, simple, acceptance as a Gold bug pricing prophet...
1) he continues to announce a rise in the paper price - and is proven wrong
2) his bizarre belief that it will go up 600% in a little over a year (2015) and yet you should only hold 10% ?!? (smells like 'reigns' on an insider)
3) his centrally planned Gold standard long-term core thesis and
4) his SDR non-solution.

Of course, is he being constrained? by his handlers? allowed to export enough information to write and promote his book? quite possibly if you read his latest tweets (thanks Börjesson):

They loaded up at $500, keep it in deep storage, waiting for global reset

You may be encouraged that he uses the word 'reset'. Perhaps this should push you more towards FG... although he doesn't use the word 'revaluation' so he probably still adheres to #3 (non-market driven).

I, particularly, find this acquiescing to FoFoA's statements on this very blog:

When you really want it, there will be none to be had.

Perhaps he has been influenced by FoFoA's, only, interview? or the blog?

Anyway, it is still picking and choosing what he says to suit your mindset. All four numbered points are at odds with FG, but you can keep us informed as he sneaks closer (or is allowed to). Not that it matters if you have already adopted FG.

I don't think you need to wait for JR to come around to FG. I realize it takes time and encourage you to continue to read the archives of this blog, which are written by a non-conflicted individual! One of the best reference sources on the web!

Regards,

BustinStones said...

@Beer... I'm here because of a link I clicked on over at ZH over a year ago. Been reading my ass off since.

That and ... - "Gold will only have to be repriced once, that will be more than enough"! -Another-

Why are you here? Let me guess. You wanna think like a Giant? ;)

BaronSilverBaron said...

@Gary,
Why so antagonistic and aggressive? Does everyone have to be totally certain here in order that are not "put-straight" by you or criticised?
Why not take your angst out on Martin Armstrong's latest quote:-
"Others are still clinging to Gold waiting for it to be a hedge against something other than making money"


Robert said...

Gary, I have no idea what you are talking about. Really. What do you mean that I "have not embraced FG"? I see the logic of it and I see how it could result in a revaluation on the order of what FOFOA has described. I have been here for more than 3 years. To the extent I have expressed skepticism, it has always been in the spirit of what FOFOA himself once advised: constantly testing the thesis against circumstances as they unfold.

True, I have recommended diversification -- at least to the extent that one has enough income now and in the future to meet all necessary living expenses. Is this not exactly what our host also recommends? Isn't the point to put your excess into gold, only after you have made enough provision for your other needs? Although it may seem counter-intuitive, the truth is that once you get your head around the FG concept, you realize that it is not necessary to go "all in" (in the sense that you have no other assets). Even if you own only a small amount of physical gold, the revaluation will be on such an order of magnitude that small holders will do well.

And back to Rickards: Yes, you are right, he was talking about a managed revaluation! Thank you! We are making progress, as now you are at least recognizing that he was talking about a rest/revaluation and not a bull market run to $7000. And yes, he is talking about governments and central banks trying to coordinate and negotiate a higher price of gold! That was the point I was trying to make all along. I never suggested that Rickards was in the FG camp, did I? Instead, the question I posed was this: Is a negotiated revalution a possibility? Is it POSSIBLE that governments AGREE to a higher revaluation BEFORE the paper market collapses? And if it is, how does that affect the FG thesis or timing? I think that is a question worth discussing.

For clarification: I am not saying I agree with him. I am not in his "camp". I am simply asking "what if" questions.

Anonymous said...

Is it necessary to put that link here again?
JGR's musings on the variable outcomes
of the dynamic global situation as of Q3 2013:

1/ Global system of mutliple reserve currencies - no way
2/ Going back to old standard - likely unsuccessfull
3/ SDR attempted but - likely unsuccessfull
4/ Collapse/chaos (w. reval) which is his pick for the future

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fXHV6MnP0E
The segment roughly starts at 1h 01min / 03min

Börjesson > Should this anecdotal account about Europeans being loaded and satisfied at $500 be in fact true, that likely speaks for much lower anticipated revals among those various "insiders". So in the popular arena say 6-15x max from today's situation, therefore: lower JGR's, mid/lower MM's, also lower bracket FOFOA's, certainly not TSP's estimates.

Anonymous said...

minilarvae > No, it doesn't. Really big money types don't go all in. If they already "have theirs", then they will have stocked up on gold equalling a given percentage of their wealth back when it was at $500. Since it's gone up 150% from there, they now store more of their wealth in gold than when they bought it (unless they've been very busy making more money in the meantime). Hence they have no reason to acquire any more gold at this point.

Anonymous said...

Probably a language barrier, that has been mine point as well..
They are (as the story goes) not in any sort of panic mode to acquire and hoard as the asians till the last moment.

Anonymous said...

Michael dV,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and some good advice. The hardest part is indeed the slow wait, especially when it's a slow decline.

Börjesson,

Thanks for the JGR tweet:
Jim Rickards ‏@JamesGRickards
Summary of global #gold flows: Americans selling, Chinese buying, Europeans have theirs already, not selling, sitting tight.

I think this illustrates the different view from various camps. It truly is possible to be in a different position even with a similar vision of the future.

If you feel you don't have "enough" you may be in a near-panic to get more, e.g. China, or Sam's comments above: "We all just want to own as many gold coins as we can as soon as we can." For these people, the lower the price the better because they are still buying.

Then there are the Europeans who already have "enough." For someone who doesn't have "enough" it may be hard to understand this perspective, but at some point it really does not make sense to own more Gold. This is the position I identify with and perhaps, others such as Robert. If you've already hit your "number" there is no reason to buy more Gold while the market is driven by a paper price that is destined (?) to decline.

Perhaps if this is kept in mind, it would be easier to treat those in a different camp (either still buying, or sitting tight) with a little more respect...

tEON said...

@Robert

Gary, I have no idea what you are talking about. Really. What do you mean that I "have not embraced FG"?

I may be wrong, but don't you advocate, or at least state your position as, 25% Physical Gold, 25% Bonds, 25% Stocks, and 25% Real Estate?

IMO, you don't embrace FG... you dabble in it.

Good luck!,

KnallGold said...

Governments negotiating a Gold price? That'd be just more of the same. But you ask if its a possibility, maybe, but is it a likely possibility?

So far we haven't heard anything, methinks they have just been sidelined by those calling the shots now. Gold without gov. inference actually IS a FG objective and that's why it must happen on its own ie becoming obvious and irrefutable via the natural failure of the old regime.

BIS/ECB then simply must react and re-establish confidence (and flow...) by opening a new Gold market. What price evolves in the process of bidding it up is, well, just numbers.

You seem to give too much credence to the number, actually beg for a lower because you seem to think 55000 is doom/end of world chaos, and 7000 is not!? You seem to think the higher the POG, the worse the situation. But that is simply not the case.

Maybe in the minds of America where the $ must be better than Gold. From there might come the difference in (mis)understanding, I can relate to it. We all have some sort of conflict in this change of paradigm because the observer is neutral but the actor (which everyone also is) is bound to a certain location and its traditions.

Having cleared this, yes, at 55000, the exorbitant privilege will be gone - which is much harder to accept if you profited from it. Maybe the thought of restoring partial EO/ control is a driver for the 7000 figure WITH paper Gold intact. But at this point in time???

In FG, 30000 or 150000 is irrelevant, because its not about having a number for calculating backing resp. fixing. Its simply an equilibrium the market will find. Of course the math has been done where this could be, including the information they have from behind the membrane Gold deals. From there's comes the FOFOA Gauss curve.

From where should come the higher revaluation in the paper Gold market, btw?

KnallGold said...

And a partial reset sounds strange. Why not eliminate the faults altogether?

Robert said...

Gary, the short answer is no. I do not recommend 25-25-25-25. However, I do recommend against going "all in" on physical gold, particularly for shrimps like me who need to worry about having something to eat and a place to live in retirement. In that other thread I mentioned that Marc Faber recommended 25-25-25-25, and I used that example to show how that strategy was more rational than plowing 95% into physical gold -- at least for someone nearing retirement. You want to position yourself so that you can live comfortably until the day you die, whether you see FG in this life or not.

Knallgold, the reason for a partial reset is to repair balance sheets and make governments and central banks more solvent. That would given them more flexibility, try to preserve the current power structure as much as possible (that's what all entrenched governments and central bankers want -- they do not want to "eliminate faults altogether"), and kick the can of reconciling all the imbalances down the road a bit further. Would it work? Maybe for a while? Or maybe even a modest revaluation would trigger a loss of confidence? I do not know. I am just asking the questions. We have lots of precedents for politicians trying to jump in to preserve the system when the system is threatened. I think they will probably try that again. Don't you?

I do not follow your thinking when you talk about the "objective" of FG. FG is not a policy or an ideology. It has no objective. It is a consequence, not a plan. It is the result of what happens with the paper market collapses -- which may or may not happen.

Anonymous said...

KnallGold> yep, it smells like in JGR's scenarios $7-8K is the lower "sane" or "media/PR friendly" outlier, he mentioned right there also higher extreme ones around-above $40K, but he doesn't want to be quoted on these as in any sort of firm prediction.. it's in that very video..

However, as Robert pointed out, the FG route is probable, not certain, including the possibility of partial reset period. Just take a walk inside a nightly city or while watching the scenery during driving a car, it's not such a problem to imagine one oz. soaking much more wealth (in contrast to that derivative junk universe) than anything predicted, calculated, assumed or even dreamed about, anywhere on the internets.

But there is the party pooper, the limit and that's the human factor, or more precisely the eternal urge of control of humans over other humans, social structure constructs, these will likely push against and cap otherwise nice theoretical concepts; perhaps full FG will come as the next instalment in another age, after some prior of needed evolution.

tEON said...

@Robert

I do recommend against going "all in" on physical gold

Once again, we've been here before. What you mean by 'all in' is different than what a FG'er means. We save our excess in Gold... instead of anything else. If you need to worry about immediate, or short term expenses like living accommodations or retirement - then you shouldn't be gambling (Stocks, Bonds, BTC etc.) in the first place - instead look after those details. I think it was Jeff who stated that this is not a poker game. Simply put, this is the difference between a saver and an investor.

F.O.A.:
"To this end, the physical gold holder will stand "one step in wealth" ahead of every worldly paper trader. Weather they trade paper gold stocks or DOW stocks, real estate deeds or CDs, in the end their paper winnings will compete with the spoils of all others of "Western thought". These "non physical owners" will seek to buy what gold they can at a price many will refuse to understand. If one made a million by paper investing, he will buy no more than a million in gold. Still, for every new buyer that wishes to escape the old paper world there will be the lowly physical buyer from the past who will already possess two million in gold.

You see, there is a world of difference between saving real money as a "wealth of ages" and trying to trade this world's "paper derivatives". The lasting wealth of physical gold does not have to be "converted" into real things prior to a currencies destruction. It already represents the new holding everyone will want. The coming "Western" economic dislocation will devastate all forms of assets that are held in "contract ownership". Be they stocks (most gold stocks included), bonds, businesses or savings accounts, etc.; the loss of a major currency will consume most of the equity these paper items represent. It has happened with every currency ever created and will happen again with our dollars.”


I would say, those who embrace FG, generally, don't give a crap what Marc '25-25-25-25' Faber says... sounds like a guy who is hedging his bets... and predictions. I don't feel I am 'betting' on anything. I am simply saving in the historically valid SoV.

Robert said...

Gary, I guess it comes down to how you define your "excess." When I think of "excess" I am thinking NOT ONLY about immediate/short term expenses for food, housing, health and entertainment, but also long term fixed expenses over the rest of my life. I feel like I need to budget an income for the whole of my retirement before I have the luxury to think about where to store my excess. Jumbo shrimp like you you may not need to think about these things. But I do.

I really don't know what will happen to the $POG in the next 50 years. I do not want to have a single asset that I may be forced to sell at an inopportune time just to maintain my standard of living.

I know that you have already dismissed the idea that I might be a FGer. But in reality I just have a completely different perspective than you, and I define the term differently than you do.

I am actually so compelled by the FG idea that two years ago I quite my job and moved overseas. I did not pull a FOFOA and become a blogger. Instead I took a very low compensation job doing something I love, but something with good job security even at these low income levels. I figured that if FG comes about quickly, the revaluation will make it possible for me to stay in this position for as long as I want to stay here, and I can live like a king. But if it does not happen in the foreseeable future, I can always go back to doing what I was doing before (making a lot more money, but not enjoying it nearly as much). What made this possible for me was the realization that there is no need to go "all in." In fact, the opposite is true. That is why FG is so liberating.

And I think that is exactly how a giant would see it.

FOFOA knows who I am and knows that I have heard and received the message. The only regret I have is that these days I cannot afford to send something to his tip jar because there is nothing left over after I pay my monthly expenses. But he can rest assured that I will afford to be generous, and that I will remember him with Thanksgiving, if and when FG comes to pass.

Michael dV said...

minilarv..
dishonest? really, you are accusing me of being dishonest?
It was the Bratislava talk where I last heard Rickards discuss his outlook with SDRs in the lead.
Is it possible we heard things the same but interpreted them differently?...or I am just a liar, trying to make trouble but stating things that simply are not true?

Franco said...

I have seen several comments lately alluding to several more years of kicking the can down the road. Lemme say something: the Fed printing $85 PER MONTH is not "kicking the can"; it's the morphine that you administer a terminal patient when you know he doesn't have much longer. Below are a few figures that I compiled. It's the net annual purchases by foreigners of US Treasury bonds and notes, plus "agency" securities:

2009: $527 B
2010: $813 B
2011: $513 B
2012: $549 B
2013 (YTD): $81 B

I have the figures going back to 1978, but I would have to upload a chart to show all that. Anyway, notice how the accumulation (a.k.a. "structural support") dropped off a cliff in 2013. The structural support is gone. The Fed is printing the difference. It is clear to me that the Fed is printing in order to fund the government. Not to reduce unemployment, nor to "foster" economic activity.

Tekin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tekin said...

Why perform a partial revaluation?

My answer: In order to let the paper gold market die without public noticing it.

We have been told by A/FOA that the failure of paper gold market would result in a decline in the paper gold price and a bifurcation of paper and physical gold prices. That would invite the attention of the public and many questions will be asked.

An initial partial gold revaluation, on the other hand, would camouflage the inner workings of the paper gold market and achieve the following goals:

1) The "market" would make an advance that satisfies the price objective of most of the public.

2) The public would not be angered by constructing a glaringly visible two tier (paper-physical) market.

3) When the public is satisfied with what has happened in the gold market, they would begin to sell. At that juncture, the paper gold market could be allowed to fail. It would look like a normal bear market to many. The CBs would probably establish an artificial floor at the paper gold market to prevent it from falling too much and start attracting the attention of the public.

4) It is possible that the demand of the public for gold could stay constant in dollar terms, but it would decline in tonnage due to the price increase. The difference in the decline in tonnage could be utilized to "make good" the paper gold claims of some powerful insiders.

5) After clearing the paper gold market in a period which looks like a bear market to the casual observers and supplying enough physical gold to the insiders, the market would be ready for Another revaluation. The psychology of the public would also be an important determinant in this equation. After the last important bull in gold market throws the towel and after the paper gold market clears, the RPG could be fired. :)

Anonymous said...

Michael> so shall we call it misunderstanding then? Why? I told you numerous times he puts SDR only in the list of several (four) major options, but clearly favors or puts probability somewhere else, I even went the lenghts and rewrote the list and gave the video link with time stamps again. But you still insists he favors SDRs, strange.

Franco> the real objectives for FED's buying program are undrestood, and increasingly so also in the wider popular domain as the real economy suffers, some "insiders" even claim they buy for $125B in actuality. However, the issue is that the world is in rather peculiar position now, EMU falls into stall, Japan entered crazydimension, and China is not sure about it's status as the nascent global hegemon or still a redfaced teenager. Simply, this could drag for some additional time in years (with a lot of gorilla tape all over it for sure), not decades.

Tekin> the public is largely with no money left, and the upper middle classes often store "wealth" in dubious instruments, many "insiders" hoarded in the mid-late 2000s. So, your timing perhaps points we are already in phase 3-4 ?

Dante_Eu said...

@Tekin:

Partial revaluation is like partial pregnancy.

Eventually, the jig is up, and truth prevails. ;-)

Beer Holiday said...

@Maggot

Rickard's has always painted the picture where SDR's will be deployed IMHO.

And so at some point, it is going to get handed over to the IMF, and they are going to have to print SDRs (special drawing rights

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1379946300.php

Did you read the thread where Currency Wars is discussed on FOFOA blog? Not just Rickards book, but the original Chinese book has been discussed here with respect to freegold in detail. Maybe you should RTFB...

Beer Holiday said...

Maggot Brain

Anonymous said...

You guys are funny, is this still forum for adults or what? JGR has got always his several scenarios on hand to discuss, that's indeed his pedigree. But as of Sept. 2013 he clearly stated, when talking about pros/cons for all of them in compact one by one fashion [how many times should we repeat the fact it's on the videotape Jesus!] that SDRs might be attempted but for various reasons (go see them) he prefers the likelyhood - outcome on his list number 4/ which is chaos,collapse, executive orders, fascist gov. taking over, and disorderly reval.

To more up to date relevant point, Koos is now "warning" via Alex Stanczyk about extreme phyz. flow tightness, and if you follow the link at Alex it's clear that's exactly where JGR's tweets about the same warning originated as well. Because he met Alex there and took pictures. So it is all based on this single source, Mr. Stanczyk. I'm judgment neutral on it, let see rumor or fact in few days/weeks/months.

http://www.ingoldwetrust.ch/sge-physical-delivery-week-47
https://twitter.com/alexstanczyk

Beer Holiday said...

My understanding is it's a forum dedicated to understanding the world thorough freegold glasses and the thoughts of A/FOA.

Maggot isn't interested it that or even in owning gold. So why are you here? Hit up the zero hedge comments section or a tractor repair forum - sorry I mean non-oil based farming equipment repair forum.

@BustinStones - Great to see your comments.

tEON said...

@minilarvae aka McPenis

Alex Stanczyk sells bullion with AFE (Anglo Far-East Bullion Company). He is the Chief Market Strategist.
Like a James Turk, Eric Sprott etc. he will emphasis physical shortage to encourage sales. He will promote a near-term paper Gold price rise to sell more bullion.
Rickards sells his book and himself. He has many predictions that have fallen flat on their face about Gold, its future pricing etc. His primary goal is to sell YOU his book. How they do this is to tell Gold Bugs what they want to hear. If he does it in 4 ways, or 20 ways - it doesn't matter. You can piece-meal choose from his oratory what you want to support your statements about him - there is plenty to discourage any belief that he has a crystal ball to decipher the truth. He does the media circuit with, generally, the same spiel with slight variances. You buy it - we get that.
These two guys are like the rest of the Gold pundits outside of this blog. In one way, or another, they want to sell you something or promote something. It is their primary goal. You gravitate toward them because it is what you want to hear. You desperately desire your thesis supported.
We don't require that. We believe we already know what will happen. Sorry if our FG confidence is somehow unnerving or insulting to you and you feel you must tear it down. You can't. The best you can do is influence those with less FG resolve. They don't need to listen to those guys - they need to read this blog.
If you are looking for a voice - you don't need Sinclair, Turk, Embry, Sprott, Rickards et all. You have the words of Another, FoA and the brilliant interpretation of our host. All three selling you NOTHING! If you have some psychological hurdle that you can't get over about FG - I'm sorry. I suggest the best way to get over it is to read this blog from beginning to the present. It takes a long time. If you want quick answers you won't get them from snippets of Rickards' videos. You will get a sales pitch. A subtle one - but still a sales pitch cloaked in supporting a fantasy. Perhaps that is what you really want. I don't.
Whatever Rickards or Stanczyk or any of those guys say is not going to speed-up, or delay, FG. If you need JR's words to make you feel better about your decisions - then you don't need to sell us on his comments. You can stop, now.

Indenture said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Indenture said...

Freegold Shortcut

Scroll down for: JR’s Suggested RPG- Freegold Reading List
Enjoy

Beer Holiday said...

To the newcomers , I say stick around ! freegold is the big picture IMHO.

@maggot - you have every trait of being a troll, but if your not, loose the attitude and learn something new or fuck off.

KnallGold said...

Robert, larvae and Tekin: the scenario you outline make some sense, to throw you a bone. A transition period with a partial revaluation, WITHIN the system, controlled. Yes, the gov'ts do try to preserve.

Now for that bone I gave, would you in exchange give consideration for a thought I have: what if that period already happened? Just evaluate what you outlined with 1900, instead of 7000. 300 to 1900. The transition period, and now the bear market.

Is the dissent just coming from a different view of where we stand right now?

Where the rubber meets the road, if physical in size trades in an equilibrium of lets say 23'000, whats the point of 7000, or 1900? Surely one must have read FOFOA's open letter to get the understanding:

http://fofoa.blogspot.ch/2010/05/open-letter-to-emu-heads-of-state.html

You can believe it or not, but how would it resonate IF? Where do we stand at this point in time? No FG countdown clock on CNN and neither on FOFOA.blogspot.

miked said...

Hi guys

My first comment here for at least 2 years. I just had an idea about how we could see Freegold might come about and soon.

Bitcoin is like a girl in a short skirt now getting all the attention, but soon enough people will realize that even though coins cannot be duplicated it's easy enough to issue new currencies. This means Bitcoin needs legitimacy, and legitimacy can only come from:

1) The currency being enshrined in law
2) Backing

I think option 1 is unlikely. Governments see Bitcoin as competition to exorbitant privilege.

This leaves us with option 2. But how can an open currency with no issuer be backed? One of the principles of Freegold is that the gold should be distributed and exchangeable into currency. Bitcoin is most useful because transactions can be carried out without fees being incurred, Surely all that is required is for a few large private gold dealers to stand ready to exchange gold for Bitcoin in any quantity (for a fee) and we have Freegold.

Or am I wrong?

Franco said...

Now that I think about it, this military conflict that's brewing between Chine and Japan...it pits the "old West" (Japan, willing to go down with the ship that is the US dollar system) against the "new East" (China, furiously accumulating gold and getting ready for a brave new future). Anyway, I think that the next wheel to fall off the wagon will be the Japanese government bond market, then the wagon falls to pieces.

Dante_Eu said...

@Gary (tEON):

Great to see you comment! In JR's absence, you're the man, just without the quotes. :-)

@miked:

You should have restrained your self from commenting just a little bit longer. ;-)

@FOFOA:

Time for a new topic, too many pages to browse before reading last comments...

Anonymous said...

KG> that's my previous reply to Tekin. You might be correct indeed.

Gary (the slower one) > hint, hint I simply connected the dots of recent tweets reposted by various commenters here about "imminent" flow tightness, which now seems to originated with that single source, Mr. Stanczyk. I'm not endorsing him by a long shot, I only find it peculiar that for the moment he has got the endorsement from the Koos blog, which contributed a lot to the general topic by making those never seen before official chinese source translations. It's a complicated world. That's all.

Beer> from any rational observation your escalating episodes of anger eruptions, especially after your claims are shown to everybody here as false, are huge detriment for this blog's comment section and perhaps even worse. More importantely, I've not seen from you any interesting link provided or comment on the topic in a long time. Try to control your language and behaviour first, then restart the process of definition of a troll from the scratch and closer to home.

BustinStones said...

@Beer thanks...

My THOUGHTS have always tried to keep it simple. I love reading this blog because of the many brilliant minds within it.

From Bible Investments... The King James Bible mentions gold 417 times, silver 320 times, and money, which is mentioned 140 times, refers to physical silver and gold. Not once does it mention a PAPER CURRENCY.
Gold and silver are mentioned all through the bible as real wealth, even through the end of Revelation.
From Genesis to Revelation, gold and silver are the only God-ordained monetary assets that will maintain their purchasing power until the day of the Lord’s wrath.

Keep it simple. Use dollars,Bitcoins,Sea-shells,Cigs, or any other MoE for everyday life. Save in GOLD and SILVER. Just more GOLD than SILVER ;) Why? Cause GOD said so...

miked said...

>>You should have restrained your self from commenting just a little bit longer. ;-)

Why is that Dante? Are you implying Bitcoin will crash? No doubt it will, but so what?

tEON said...

@Gary

He has many predictions that have fallen flat on their face about Gold

Quote them please with specific reference to dates. Otherwise STFU and leave.

Indenture said...

I'm trying to think of a prediction FOFOA has made that has not come to pass. Off the top of my head I can't think of one, namely because FOFOA doesn't make predictions but I do know FOFOA said paper gold would decline in dollar price. Also, comparing FOFOA to any other gold advocate, especially on the basis of how he personally generates revenue, is a poor choice of tactic. The image of a ‘Donate Button’ is a far leap from the ‘calling all masses to come to my seminar’ or the ‘buy my latest book’ guru shouting from his platform. But thanks for the reminder...

There is a large DONATE BUTTON at the top of this page.
If FOFOA has helped you find peace this holiday season please consider redirecting a tiny portion of your good cheer towards our golden elf.
Thank you FOFOA

tEON said...

@McPenis

hint I simply connected the dots

No offense, but you couldn't connect-the-dots on a 8-year old's puzzle-book. You embrace flawed data and reject the logical that is staring you in the face.

by various commenters

Firstly, spell-checker is free. Your abject laziness is showing - don't blame it on anything else. Perhaps you didn't comprehend my post? We don't care what other commentators think - they have been consistently incorrect (see past quotes "Gold will not go below $1600" - Sinclair, "Gold will rise in 2013" by your hero Rickards, add in Sprott "too many to name" - research more - I can't be bothered).

We aren't here to promote philistine pundits with axes to grind and agenda's to sell you - this is "A Tribute to the Thoughts of Another and his Friend" NOT "A Tribute to McPenis Who States Invalid Data by Inaccurate Analysts and is Rude to Everyone Because He is a Dick" blog. Go to Koos... start your own blog on the not-so prescient Rickards!... go anywhere - most don't care... about anything you say. Got it?

It's a complicated world. That's all

For you, hedgers using farm equipment and non-bullion assets, it is. For FG'ers it's simple.

Alien said...

Mr Gary tomvjhfl....

you enable the world to understand why Americans HAVE to be hated. Just horrible manifestations coming from you.
A genuine American. Don`t you need a AKA 15 ?

tEON said...

@Alien

...why Americans HAVE to be hated...

I don't believe your statement is true and, btw, I'm not an American - but thank you for showing your prejudice.

Dante_Eu said...

miked,

"Bitcoin is most useful because transactions can be carried out without fees being incurred."

So you mean its best used as a "Medium of exchange"?

Anand says best used as a "Store of value".

Which is it, "Medium of exchage" or "Store of value"?

Do you see any potential DILEMMA here? ;-)

Dante_Eu said...

Ups I forgot:

Blame it on MT.GOX

When we gonna see:

Blame it on FOFOA? :D

miked said...

Hi Dante

Yes Bitcoin's forte is a medium of exchange. In this respect it's better than cash or even EFT (no transaction costs).

It's also something cash is not: undetectable and not possible to confiscate. These are new properties which did not even occur to old guard who defined the 3 functions of money.

In fact it even has another: It is transmissible in and of itself. It is not a transmission of a promise like a bank transfer. When a Bitcoin is sent over a the wires, it really changes location instantly.

But a store of value? No it can never be because competing currencies will appear (just watch them appear like flies now Bitcoin hit 1000$). Ripples, Litecoin. What will be next?

Gold also has no inherent value. It's pretty useless stuff after all. Its value is cultural and historical and it's physical existence, and that is something Bitcoin is not. Therefore I am suggesting that people can already save in gold and transact in bitcoin in a way that was never possible in fiat currency.

All that is needed to add legitimacy is for a few distributed big players with very deep pockets to stand ready at any time to take any quantity of Bitcoins for gold.

Dante_Eu said...

miked:

You should ought to know that "Medium of exchange", or currency, ought to exist in unlimited amount and be unrestricted.

BC is neither. BIG Fail in that department.

Also, 99.9 percent of people are perfectly fine with fiat currency as a Medium of exchange. I don't really know what you are talking about.

miked said...

I don't see any reason Bitcoin is limited in supply. It can be subdivided ad infinitum. If need be there is enough Bitcoin to buy everything in the world.

I am not happy with fiat as a medium of exchange and I am not the only one. If I try to carry 10,000 euro across the border I am quite likely to have it confiscated if I cannot show where I got it. How is that for useless?

Dante_Eu said...

So you mean, everyone is gonna get paid in BC and pay their taxes in BC?

Well, you carry a plastic card, Visa or Mastercard, and you take 10.000 € from the ATM in the country you arrived to. I did it, no problem. ;-)

Dante_Eu said...

Besides, if you are in EU there are no borders. :-)

frankthetank said...

@ miked: are you sure about this "subdivided ad infinitum" thing? I thought there was smallest possible subunit in the bitcoinsystem. But I don't know much about bitcoins anyway, so I could be wrong.

@ Dante_Eu: you:"Besides, if you are in EU there are no borders. :-) "

Here you got something wrong imho. If you are in the EU the border is everywhere. ;)
Since Schengen customs can controll you wherever they want.

Indenture said...

A Bitcoin is only divisible to eight decimal places.
"subdivided ad infinitum" is incorrect

miked said...

Correct Frank. If I am stopped by the police in the EU they have a right to ask me how much currency I am carrying. If I tellt hem it's under 10k euro and it turns out to be more they have the right to take everything above the 10k and ask me to prove the origin.

Additionally there are borders withing the EU. Only Schengen countries are without borders.

Furthermore Dante, black cash is the only thing keeping governments from taxing us at 100%. If they had full control of our money they would take every last penny and just give us back what we need to subsist.

Another EU tidbit for you. In France there is a legally mandated maximum cash transaction. I think it's just 1000 euro. Beyond that we are forced to work with banks which are all insolvent. You like fiat currency? Good on you. I don't like it one bit.

miked said...

Fair enough. That gives 21*10^14 currency units. That's quite enough. There are only half a trillion dollars of assets worldwide and those dollarsare quite worthless enough.

Indenture said...

miked: Good to hear from you again. In your description I didn’t hear anything about the demise of paper gold so I wouldn’t call the ability to exchange Bitcoin for gold ‘Freegold’.

http://www.coinabul.com

Tekin said...

KnallGold said... “Just evaluate what you outlined with 1900, instead of 7000. 300 to 1900. The transition period, and now the bear market.”

That is quite possible.

KnallGold said...”Is the dissent just coming from a different view of where we stand right now?”

Yes.

minilarvae said... “the public is largely with no money left, and the upper middle classes often store "wealth" in dubious instruments, many "insiders" hoarded in the mid-late 2000s. So, your timing perhaps points we are already in phase 3-4 ?”

Yes it is quite possible.

However, being mentally prepared for a longer timetable is not a bad thing in itself.

The scenario I suggested has the merit of clearing the paper gold market before RPG. The daily volume of LBMA would be an indication of the market clearing; the volume would decrease. Some longs in the paper gold market would be disgusted with what they have done and close their positions. The obstinate longs would be supplied with gold coming from the mines. In order to have that, public demand as measured in mass of gold, would have to be slashed. Even the obstinate long positions would be closed as the gold received from the mines covers their position.

As an aside, if gold is partially revalued to, say 10,000-20,000, what would it indicate for the target price of FG? Why stop at, say 13,000 if the target price is 55,000? For me a partial revaluation would indicate a higher target price.

Anyway, I am just playing with ideas so as not be surprised as the events unfold in real life. It is quite possible that your interpretation is the correct interpretation.

Best Regards.

Franco said...

Why are all these BTC advocates coming out of the woodwork now?

byiamBYoung said...

Regarding Bitcoin et al, I've been doing some reading. (Thanks Motley Fool for enlightening me about the existence of other crypto currencies). Here's what I now know, which I didn't about a week ago:

As it turns out, there are dozens of these currencies, and there will probably be more in time. Bitcoin is the largest, with nearly $14 billion worth in circulation. Litecoin is next, at nearly $1 billion.

With subtle differences (attempts to improve upon Bitcoin), they mostly seem to generally follow the Bitcoin model.

All of the more popular currencies, except for one (Novacoin) appear to have a declared maximum number of coins that will ever be produced.

I initially thought that Bitcoin had a decided advantage over the other crypto currencies, because BTC is steadily gaining traction as an accepted currency for a widening range of businesses, and can be easily converted into major world currencies. Most of the less popular crypto currencies have historically needed to rely on conversion into/from Bitcoin as a gateway to/from traditional world currencies.

But I was surprised to find that the trend toward opening of exchanges to all popular crypto currencies seems to be accelerating. Bitcoin aside, Litecoin is the most easily converted directly into USD or EUR, although the others are not far behind. Coinmkt.com and crypto-trade.com are two of the more inclusive exchanges at this time. Mtgox is apparently trying to bring Litecoin and possibly others onboard, but there have been some hiccups in deploying the platform.

It certainly seems that the currencies are almost entirely positioned as MOE, and far less so as SOV. It really is all about the ability to send and receive funds in an anonymous, peer to peer transaction that is secure and virtually (completely?) impossible to counterfeit.

So, given all that, I am rethinking my initial conviction that we are witnessing a bubble in Bitcoin (and all the others to one degree or another). I think it is possible that the flow into these currencies could continue for some time, because it is as much a process of priming the pumps of crypto-commerce as it is an attempt to store wealth, IMHO. Regardless, it is all certainly quite speculative, especially for the more colorful of the also-ran currencies.

I am wondering, though, if a Gresham's law effect will strictly apply to all of these currencies if their predominant function is as a MOE? In practice, their function as a transactional currency is comparable across the board, it seems. So, if the exchanges open the gates to the lesser-known currencies, what transactional advantage does Bitcoin really have?

Could several of these MOEs coexist long-term, with oodles of arbitrage opportunities continuously bubbling about?

And what, if anything, does this say about gold? IMHO, it says very little. These boutique currencies are great novelties, and one hell of a speculative play as the game unfolds, but not a stable store of value…not by a longshot.

I'd be happy to stand corrected if I'm in the weeds on any of this.

Cheers


Franco said...

byiam:

BTC is not very good as everyday MoE because it can several minutes (or much longer) to obtain confirmation of a transaction. Let's be honest here: these crypto-currencies are only good at hiding from big brother, and that's only temporary until big brother squashes them. Big brother can easily squash any of the digital currencies with minimal effort.

byiamBYoung said...

Hi Franco,

You are right, if we are talking about groceries or the gas station.

I wonder if Big Brother can squash these currencies as you say. It may be like stepping on a water balloon. Goes flat in one place, but everything flows to the other end.

It's anyone's guess how it plays out.

Cheers

Anonymous said...

Franco said:
Why are all these BTC advocates coming out of the woodwork now?

Probably because the price of 1 Bitcoin recently exceeded the price of 1 oz of Gold. When assets go up, people talk about them.

FOFOA,

I think you should consider a moderation policy which at least suggests to users that they at least try to treat others with respect as baseline posting etiquette. If the software allows it, maybe a temporary ban (2 weeks?) to set an example about misusing others names -- aka acting like they are in kindergarten.

Just an observation, the comments by several posters here have really devolved into something awful.

Franco said...

When I say "squash" I don't mean that the government would outlaw the use of the digital currency, or even regulate it to oblivion. No, it's much simpler than that. If a government feels the need, all it has to do is run a pump-and-dump, anonymously of course. Raise the price to five figures, then quickly collapse it. Anybody with a few billion $ of capital can do this.

Beer Holiday said...

@athrone I have a deal: I'll stop posting in comments for as long as Mcfly does

I'm crass but I'm honest too. Mcfly is the most frequent commenter on this blog, and his comments IMHO are so wrong they are like a black-hole that sucks the attention of everyone else to try and dispel them.

He has stated that he has no gold (or interest in owning any!) and he invests in farming equipment. Fair enough, I'm sure there are forums dedicate to that line of thought, and good luck to them.

I love this blog, but today the comment section is becoming a tribute to the thoughts of Mcfly. And Mcfly isn't remotely interested in freegold, but rather in wasting peoples time (which I admit he is very good at) . It makes me angry, and I speak my mind.

I think you have a point though, I might take a break for 2 weeks, self imposed. And hit it up the donate button.

Dante_Eu said...

@byiamBYoung:

Today I downloaded Litecoin wallet, just for fun. Also checked what it takes to purchase one.

I now understand why Ben endorses BitCoin and other "crypto" - "currencies".

In comparison, US$ or any other fiat currency for that matter, looks like an oasis of security, integrity and stability.

There are so many steps, of flaws, it's really ridiculous.

Maybe I'm too stupid, who knows? :-)

ein anderer said...

Seen? Public authorities in Great Britain and Germany are now analysing the five LBMA members which are responsible for the daily gold price fixing (today: Deutsche Bank, Société Générale, Barclays, HSBS, Bank of Nova Scotia). The probable cause: manipulation of the gold prices.
For the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung the story is worthwhile as today’s front page story of it’s section »Geld & Mehr« (Money & More).
From the last paragraph (translation with the help of Google):

"Probably you should consider having the price of gold in London in the future not simply be discovered on an electronic trading platform, such as the price of shares," said Thorsten Polleit, chief economist of the Degussa gold trade. That it is not yet handled like this is mainly because large parts of the gold transactions are not routed to exchanges, but privately "over the counter". Even the price of gold from the so-called spot market, which you can constantly monitor via the Internet, is not a market price, but an average price of various gold transactions. At the stock market especially so-called futures on gold are traded—securities on the future price. The discussion about all this is unquestionably just beginning.

Link

Jeff said...

ANOTHER -The governments will revalue gold and "demand" that the public carry it and use it! It will be the source of all gold, the mines, that will be controlled! That's Controlled, with a capital "C", not confiscated!

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-gold-mine-and-deposit-rankings-2013

byiamBYoung said...

@Franco,

Whether that would work or not, I certainly don't know. But with BTC at $14 billion and growing, the pump and dumpers better hurry before the cost to play gets out of hand.

@Dante_Eu,

For some real fun, try mining. You can pop popcorn on the surface of your overheating laptop, and earn almost enough coins to pay for the extra electricity the mining consumes!

Cheers

Franco said...

And there you have it. I just saw that Bitcoin price dropped 32%, then gained 26%, all within a short period of time, apparently. Meanwhile, Litecoin dropped 51%. If these huge swings continue to happen (and they will) the only function that these crypto-currencies will have is as gambling instruments. Not MoE, not SoV.

tEON said...

@ein anderer
Thanks for the link and info!
I wonder if anything will come of it?... I highly doubt it. Gold Price manipulation, as seen by the public, is a victimless crime (since they own none - and understand it less). I have a feeling that it will be a headline to cover the investigation, but page 18 when it is forgotten after 3 years of deep study. I will admit to being wrong if this changes...
It's hardly news either as you can see Secretary Kissinger's 1974 discussion on it before paper Gold expansion HERE ;
"We Should Look Hard At Substantial Sales & Raid The Gold Market Once And For All"

Secondly, Mr. Secretary, it does present an opportunity though—and we should try to negotiate for this—to move towards a demonetization of gold, to begin to get gold moving out of the system.

Secretary Kissinger: But how do you do that?

Mr. Enders: Well, there are several ways. One way is we could say to them that they would accept this kind of arrangement, provided that the gold were channelled out through an international agency—either in the IMF or a special pool—and sold into the market, so there would be gradual increases.

and, since non of the pro-crypto-currency gang will tell you:
Bitcoin and LiteCoin Plunge Into Bear Market both down significantly in the past hour, on heavy volume. Why would anyone accept this as a MoE when it fluctuates like this?

byiamBYoung said...

@Gary (tEON),

It is a bit, er, choppy for the x-coins tonight, isn't it?

For the record, I'm not an advocate, just an interested spectator.

But even with the big swoon from today, most of these coins are still dramatically up from a few weeks ago.

I'm not sure they are done with their wild run.

Cheers

tEON said...

As if the BTC phenomenon is not already surreal enough:
UK Royal Mint Working On Plans To Issue Gold-Backed Physical Bitcoins HERE

byiamBYoung said...

Gold-backed Bitcoins? That demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension of the BTC concept, as well as a total miss on the comprehension of Freegold. In short, a wild haymaker punch that misses all targets badly.

This concept is a complete failure, just waiting for its eventual humiliating launch. We are all dumber for having learned about it.

Cheers

Ken_C said...

I read the article at ZeroHedge. This makes absolutely no sense at all. ........Which is precisely why it may atract many buyers.


Gary (tEON) said...
As if the BTC phenomenon is not already surreal enough:
UK Royal Mint Working On Plans To Issue Gold-Backed Physical Bitcoins HERE

tEON said...

Surely, the whole article must be a joke...
The same symbolic Bitcoin token issued by the Royal Mint "would have a gold content – a figure of £500-worth has been proposed – so that holders could conceivably melt and sell the metal if the exchange value of the currency were to collapse."

Knotty Pine said...

This link is a PDF called the World Ultra Wealth Report. It seems CB policies are working quite well. Of note (I have not read the whole report yet) so far is a 15.3% increase in UHNW (ultra high net worth) individuals in the middle east. The value of their wealth increased 23.9%. :D

M said...

The last few interviews on King World News have been as freegold as ever. Every one of them mentions that the paper gold market is a facade that doesn't represent the physical gold market.

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts
Egon von Greyerz:
William Kaye:

Why do people here have such a problem with Eric King ? Do they think he is getting rich off the little ads that some of miners put up ? Because he is not. Its probably just a hobby for him no different then Peter Schiffs show. King has the pipes for for radio...

ein anderer said...

@ Gary (tEON)
Thanks for the Kisinger hint.
And yet: That one of the leading german newspapers is filling a prominent page with these news is a clear sign that the awareness of the problem is rising: may be slowly, but nevertheless.

BTW: To all these Bit- and Lite- and whatsoever "coins" (and the discussions around it) I am not putting attention at all. Don’t want invest my nerves in gambling games. Don’t want to "invest" at all. I am totally happy with what I OWN.

Anand Srivastava said...

Franco:

There you have it. Bitcoin will be the favorite of Speculators and Traders. It will also serve some other purposes, but that will be the main function. It will replace paper gold. I am thinking that it will cross 10,000$ during crisis, probably a lot more.

It is the ideal hedge during the crisis. My only problem is how will I exchange during the crisis :-). Possibly the local exchange will work.

Roacheforque said...

Bitcoin teaches a lesson, more so by circumstance than purpose-driven intent, that using a medium of exchange as a store of value is inherantly unstable. A message similar to the Cyprus event.

I do not believe said instability is "caused" by the so called PTB, but they certainly applaud the outcome. It was obvious that a speculative currency would be volatile, as it offers the easy gains of any speculative paper with herd appeal ...

The dollar faction desires that the dollar bond be seen as the ultimate store of value. They have done far more than to manipulate a currency to achieve that end ... for the greater herd.

What I find most interesting are the various reasons for holding gold. Those reasons are often quite evident, and they do differ.

Most see gold as an investment (something BTW it was never truly meant to be), or a hedge (something that it necessarily became).

Some possess gold as a statement of principle.

It is not so much a political statement, or a social statement (for both politics and society have in most places lost their way) but a "stand" one takes on economic principle.

Some will no doubt "appear to lose all" when they make such a stand, for what they gain surpasses what the trader mentality can comprehend.

To stand on principle, and be rewarded in this world (or the next) is of course the final play.

tEON said...

@M

The last few interviews on King World News have been as freegold as ever. Every one of them mentions that the paper gold market is a facade that doesn't represent the physical gold market.

Finally, coming to grips with the idea that paper Gold is not a representation of physical Gold is not necessarily a concept exclusively tied to the Freegold theory. It is simply a reality. The fact that the stubborn Goldbugs of KWN complain 'it' and about paper manipulation is their excuse for inaccurate calls of the past year+. Somewhere on this blog I have posted lengthy lists of failed conclusions copied directly from KWN by the likes of Turk, Leeb, Embry, Sprott etc. You can see similar if you simply look at the KWN Archives.

Do they think he is getting rich off the little ads that some of miners put up ?

Eric King is already wealthy (by most standards) - a self-made man. He lives with his wife in Florida. His miner adverts encourage investment in those specific mining ventures. I would guess that they have cost investors millions. They all would have been so much better off, coming to this blog and, trusting the words of A/FoA/FoFoA, or Jim Willie, or Rob Kirby about mining investment.... and steered clear.

Why do people here have such a problem with Eric King ?

Exploitive headlines to interviews, constant exaggeration 'best interview ever' bylines, endorsement of failed miners (through adverts), reams of failed guest predictions.... but I can't understand why his guests - who may agree that the paper gold market is a facade - never (that I have heard) predict the paper-price will drop. Either they can't make the connection, always expecting it to be on the precipice of turning around, or it is contrary to their business plan (selling PMs, or newsletters, or videos, or financial services etc.) Many of the Junior Mining Newsletter guys (almost all gone now) would post stats of the success of their picks. If King did that with his advertisers, or guest's calls, it would be easy to see that doing the reverse (shorting the miners, shorting the paper price of Gold) would have been the logical thing to do... in hindsight. If they admit that the stats of physical buying don't have anything to do with the paper price, why have guys like Dan Norcicni on every week - trying to find some technical reason to relate the two? Statements like "We have had steady physical buying, Eric" and "The paper price will do X" are exclusive to each other. But they continue, week after week...

King has the pipes for for radio...

He always sounds to me like a cheap, whining, carny barker - I have a friend who does a good imitation of Eric King. His sales technique would never be considered to be subtle. As I understand it, his goal was to put Jim Puplava (Financial Sense) out of business. Puplava's guests (like Gary Shilling, Martin Armstrong, Steve Forbes etc.) seem to concentrate more on a macro analysis and the un-sustainability of the current market conditions although both have mining executives and cross-over in many areas. Not that I endorse Puplava either but his guest interviews are longer and, overall, much classier than King's - without the exaggerating doomsday 'financial world is ending' or vitriolic whining about the system every frigg'in week. Personally, I am 'over' his site - I no longer surf there except to recall the stubbornness of the Gold Bug Community.

Cheers,

Anand Srivastava said...

THE Richard M Stallman on Bitcoin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ_3MKomQzY

RMS created the Free Software Foundation, which helped creation of Linux, by providing the base software.

Dante_Eu said...

gold going down...yawn...what else? :-)

@OBA:

Auction System Failure Forces US Treasury To Postpone 3, 6-Month Bill Auctions

Just a glitch or something else?

burningfiat said...

Good stuff Dante!

Let's watch the pot tomorrow at noon! I have a feeling we're soon going to boil it with all the laser-eyes on it! ;D

Biju said...

WOW !! Gold at $1217/oz. This slow drifting down of Gold is horrible to deal even for freegolders. Let it fall fast and get it over with, but what we have now is slow torture.

Dante_Eu said...

@burning

Well, December 21st 2013 have for some reason stuck in my head as a possible rapture day, don't ask why though. :-)

BustinStones said...

We watch the approach of this change, and discuss it, together, yes? It will truly be "a gold market as none before".
-another-

One Bad Adder said...

Yes Dante - I'm watching - The Announcement of the deferment doesn't give much away tho.
The Ratio is on the uptick ...(long end rising - short end dropping) which indicates we may be in for Another crack at Zool??
We can but watch Amigo.

One Bad Adder said...

Since getting my new Apple 'pute, for some reason the Hyperlinks don't seem to want to stick - is anyone else having difficulty? They look OK on preview ...but don't make the cut when posted ;-(

M said...

@ Gary (tEON)

So do you really think that King world news is trying to peddle shoddy assets with their little gold bug underworld ads ? The guys that knew they were shoddy went broke in 2008. Its only the relatively strong that are left and they can barely keep the lights on. These are real geologists with real capital looking for gold. I don't have any problems what so ever with KWN. And if you don't believe that the Fed cartel doesn't slam the price of gold then look at my last blog post here :

http://freegoldobserver.blogspot.ca/

What I don't understand is why don't these guys, the Lassonds, the Sprotts, the Mcewens, the Sinclairs don't pool some money and break the paper market themselves.

Why are you so sure we wont have another paper run in gold ?

Are you prepared to be wrong if it does happen ?

It was contrarian all the way up to be bullish on paper gold these last 10 years. And it was typical to be bearish. Everyone I knew was bearish from 2008 till 2011. So this time was diffrent I guess. The great unwashed got it right on paper gold .... Hmmm

byiamBYoung said...

See? BTC shook off the drop and rebounded again.

I think this is a good example of investors versus believers.

Of course, I could pop the bubble tonight by buying in ( :D ), but I'll watch from the sidelines.

Cheers

M said...

Can we end the Bitcoin talk on here completely ?

This blog is above BTC. Period. It cheapens the blog by mentioning it. We have serious people coming here to look that probably scoff when they see some fad like BTC being talked about.

byiamBYoung said...

M,

I would hate to upset the "serious" people. But, $12 to $14 billion is, in fact, "serious."

BTC may be a fad, or it may be the leading edge of something that will have a huge impact on the way things play out.

IMHO, we should continue to watch it unfold, and consider how it impacts the gold trail. If it goes down in flames, we can roast marshmallows.

Seriously.

Cheers, friend.

Archer said...

Why are you so sure we wont have another paper run in gold?

Because paper gold was devised to further the life of the $IMFS, nothing more. And now, a little less than one month from Anno Domini 2014, no one who has a decisive say in the matter is doing anything substantial-far from it- to keep the present system intact. But, equally, as no one is actively working to destroy the $IMFS, merely preparing for its demise, inertia has acted to excruciatingly attenuate the inevitable collapse of the $IMFS.

And the signs are unmistakable that the now decrepit system is not long for this world, and one of the hard to miss signs is precisely the condition of paper gold which has now, by most estimates, fallen below the cost of production. In the grand game of Rock, Scissors, Paper, the rock is a compact and heavy piece of gold ore, the paper is, a severely dessicated claim to the ore, and the scissors are made of plastic. Only one of the three is robust, and it's not the plastic scissors or the very thin bit of disintegrating wood pulp.

tEON said...

@M

So do you really think that King world news is trying to peddle shoddy assets with their little gold bug underworld ads ?

Yes, but not intentionally. They do it because they don't know any better and it is a source of revenue. This will not play out like the 70's... if you believe in FG.

These are real geologists with real capital looking for gold.

No one is disputing that, "M". Can you read some of this blog? Legitimate mines? Dude, it doesn't matter! You can see the writing on the wall. Most miners are a fraction of what they were. Most will go broke before this is over. The remainder that aren't, already, controlled will be...

Why are you so sure we wont have another paper run in gold

I'm not - although it seems highly unlikely - every day. There is no reason for paper Gold to rise - support is gone.. But either way - I don't think it will matter. A spike - yes?, no? why gamble? I am just looking at momentum and signs like the fact that every major government has unlimited QE now. The HI-driven Bull run in Stock Markets (equities) is.... transpiring daily. There is nothing left but to let this play out. I don't think it can be stopped. In simpler terms - it is inevitable. I believe the most likely scenario is how FoFoA describes - using logic and the words of A/FoA. Every day passes - and every word I read from the archives of this blog - cements my belief.

Can we end the Bitcoin talk on here completely ?

How about ending the KWN talk instead... none of those 'experts' understand, appreciate or endorse FG. Why are you praising them? Because you found some hints that YOU feel are FG-ish? You are sounding like McFly and Rickards' scattered Gold minutia. You don't need to find 'hints' at FG with mainstream GoldBugs - you have THIS blog, dammit! The, very, one you are posting at! The generic Bug's denial or acceptance won't matter an iota. This blog has all you need - a few clicks away... read it... digest it.. embrace it. This is no longer a prophecy - it is happening now! How about this - instead of pointing to other blogs, with failed 'Gold Bug'-related forecasters and trying to tie FG to your tertiary understanding - you can, instead, ask questions about FG that you don't seem to get, yet, - at the same time - remembering our host's invaluable 5-year contribution to YOUR education and, if you are more short-sighted, his incredible year! You may do as you wish - but I donated, again, a few days ago. To me this blog is the most important site I have found on the Internet. Perhaps you feel KWN is... to each his own.

You know, as this continues to play out just as FoFoA describes - none of these posters will actually climb aboard - we will still have the inflexible whiners about the paper-price decline who see everything in USD, the stubborn mining advocates anticipating a turn around at every corner, Gold deniers gloating in MSM, friends and relatives shaking their heads, in our direction, as paper Gold tumbles... I'm going to spend a lot of time in bed - watching TV. Maybe Miami CSI - there are, like, 100s of those episodes...

M said...

@ byiamBYoung

12 to 12 billion is nothing in this environment. And I don't mean that out of frustration for how long the supereroganism has allowed this to continue.

Yahoo.com was worth more then the whole country of New Zealand in the tech boom. All the real estate, stocks, bonds, deposits of the whole country.

No more BTC talk.

M said...

@ Archer

You:"one of the hard to miss signs is precisely the condition of paper gold which has now, by most estimates, fallen below the cost of production. "

Understood. But the DOW is breaking records every day. I don't see Prechter having his 15 minutes of fame just because the paper gold market is kinda doing what we thought it would. It is trading... Nothing more or less. Physical is not constrained for the shrimps. Nothing has changed really...

M said...

@ Gary (tEON) s

I would answer your replies in more detail if damn blogger was simpler.

I am as true of believer in FG as you are. I have my own Freegold blog. I've been here since early 2009. 90% of my wealth is in physical.

But that doesn't mean I am so sure that this paper market is toast yet. As I said, it is trading. It didn't fall to 500 in 2 days or anything like that. Physical is still available at these prices. I will buy some this week probably. I am not advocating to gamble in the paper market. I am just saying, why do you want to set yourself up to possibly be wrong in a few months ? I wish it would just crater tomorrow but nothing will surprise me.

byiamBYoung said...

@M,

I'm happy to be wrong. I am damn well used to it.

I say BTC is worth watching. That's my stance.

Time will tell, eh friend?

Cheers

Archer said...

Understood. But the DOW is breaking records every day. I don't see Prechter having his 15 minutes of fame just because the paper gold market is kinda doing what we thought it would. It is trading... Nothing more or less. Physical is not constrained for the shrimps. Nothing has changed really...

Of course it's trading. And it will trade right up until the final minute that the quote screens go dark. Now, please don't take this the wrong way, but The Dow, or any other share average you can think of, has fuck all to do with it. The point
in time when participants in the upper level of the physical gold market can not get their hands on physical will have infinitely more to say about matters than the behavior of the S&P 500. But until that day arrives, and paper gold is reduced to a smoking ruin (look for Prechter and/or his fellow travelers to turn up then) everything will operate just like it has every other day in every blooming market from New York to Shanghai.

M said...

@ Archer

Yes I know the DOW means FF all. But all that I am saying is that the prediction of Prechter having a 15 minutes of fame was predicated on all markets crashing, including the stock markets which would usher in FG. So at this juncture, nobody is right. Which is why I am not sure that this paper market means anything.

What price should we expect physical to stop trading at ?

Archer said...

What price should we expect physical to stop trading at?

1125, 1050, 975? Take your pick, or come up with another number. The price point that represents the straw that breaks the camel's back is probably unknowable, at least by the likes of we shrimp. The paper gold market, as per its position below the cost of production, is in Great White infested waters now, who can say when the man in the grey flannel suit will come in for the kill?

Michael dV said...

Archer
I'm always up for another chance to be wrong…$1127/ oz

Michael dV said...

OBA
I'm on a Mac using Safari…I have no problems with pasting links.

Michael dV said...

…and just for the fun of it all
turn the page...

ein anderer said...

Everybody knows
it is now or never …


Thanks, FOFOA, for this great Cohen take BTW.

«Oldest ‹Older   601 – 800 of 882   Newer› Newest»

Post a Comment

Comments are set on moderate, so they may or may not get through.