Wednesday, February 11, 2015

Confessions of an Erratic Marxist



"So, given the trends established during the past three decades,
with savings rates at 10% and growth no more than 1.5%,
[the $IMFS] is pushing us to a situation where wealth will
exceed six times GDP and the proportion of GDP that will be
going to those living off wealth (as opposed to wages) will
be at least one third. This is an unsustainable tendency that
operates like a time bomb in the foundation of [the $IMFS]."

That's from this pdf by Yanis Varoufakis, which is a good read, especially section 2 where he explains the difference between wealth and capital. This difference is the key to Yanis' rather harsh critique of Thomas Piketty's 696-page treatise on global inequality titled Capital in the Twenty-First Century.

Here are a few excerpts from section 2 of the pdf which is titled Conflating wealth with capital:

Collecting stamps is a romantic and, in many ways worthy, pursuit. It can also be quite profitable. Similarly with art collections. Or a garage full of Ferraris. Nevertheless none of these assets can be enlisted as inputs into some production process.



In short, production and growth depends on material or physical capital. And while capital is a form of wealth, a great deal of wealth is not a form of capital; i.e. it is not an input into any production process generating hitherto non-existent commodities. Thus, the growth of an economy cannot rely on wealth. It needs a particular kind of wealth: capital goods. So if we conflate capital with wealth, our theory of production will suffer to the extent that we will have wilfully misspecified a key input, mistaking all increases in wealth as increases in capital’s contribution to the production process.



When a capital good has a physical form, we more or less know its material utility since it is a technical matter to work out, e.g., how much electricity an electricity generator produces per hour per given quantities of diesel. But what is the return to an art collection that the collector is not auctioning off? Or to an owner-occupied home in which a family insists on living? Indeed, what is the rationale of treating (as Professor Piketty must do, to remain consistent with his wealth-capital conflation) the income of a stamp collector from trading in stamps as a return to capital (and not as income from work) while the super-sized bonuses of money market traders are counted not as returns to capital but, instead, as… wage income?

Naturally, Professor Piketty knows this all too well. So, why has he chosen to conflate capital and wealth? One plausible answer is that his primary concern was to present an empirical study that tracked the evolution of Western civilisation’s wealth and income distributions, so as to show that inequality is spreading like a forest fire since the 1970s… Alas, this required a demonstration that his wealth-metric is interchangeable with a reliable capital-metric; a demonstration that is impossible and, therefore, never appears in the book’s many pages.

Summing up, Professor Piketty’s capital is a metric of wealth. A hugely important metric indeed since, in any society, relative wealth determines the relative power between those who have oodles of it and the rest who do not. Adam Smith, one may recall, made his name with a magnificent book that attempted to explain “the nature and causes of the wealth of nations”. So, why did Professor Piketty not attempt to emulate the great Adam Smith, mainstream economics’ patron saint, given that he, in essence, wrote a large volume on the… wealth of nations? Why did he, instead, choose the title of another classic book, Das Kapital, that does not reflect in the slightest the contents of his own book or the method of his approach?

One explanation… is that Smith… had precisely the opposite perspective to that of Professor Piketty on the prospects of wealth inequality. In contrast, Marx’s epic narrative on capitalism’s remarkable capacity to create, simultaneously, untold wealth and unprecedented misery resonates much better with Professor Piketty’s message; namely that capitalism, left unchecked, has a ‘natural’ tendency toward creating vast, destabilising inequality.

Yanis is a complicated and clever Marxist. He deeply agrees with Piketty's radical egalitarianism, or activist opposition to the perceived inequality between the haves and the have-nots as delineated by Marx, but he doesn't like the idea of an authoritarian state taking care of the redistribution of wealth, which is why he sometimes identifies himself as a libertarian Marxist. He also thinks that the standard leftist or "social democrats'" approach to the problem of "capitalism", which he sees typified in Piketty's book, is at best flawed and weak and at worst dangerous.

Here is Yanis explaining his often-seemingly-non-Marxist-rhetoric and his deeply-Marxist roots from a keynote speech he gave at the annual radical left Subversive Festival in Croatia in 2013 (and from whence came the title of this post) titled "Confessions of an Erratic Marxist":


When I chose my PhD thesis, I intentionally concentrated on a method within which Marx was not simply wrong, he was irrelevant. When I landed my first economics lectureship in Britain, the implicit contract between my university and me was that the sort of economics I would teach our students would be as far removed from Marxism as is humanly possible. When I moved to Australia in 1988, unbeknownst to me, I was recruited by the right wing of the Sydney University Economics Department in order to keep out of the Faculty another candidate whose former supervisor was thought of (quite rightly!) as a dangerous Marxist. Later I moved to Greece where I (foolishly) became, quite officially, an advisor of George Papandreou -- the man whose government was to mediate Greece's passage to Hell a few years later. While I resigned that position in 2006, having gotten whiff of the impending disaster, I carried on teaching, at the University of Athens, quaint (and admittedly vulgar bourgeois) subjects like Game Theory and Microeconomics to a large number of Greek students, who remained touchingly oblivious to the catastrophe about to befall them. Back in 2002, well before the Global Crisis erupted, Joseph Halevi and I tried to sound a warning -- but we failed to make an impact. Even though in 2006 I did my best to warn Greek society, and anyone who would listen, of the impending disaster, I shamefully remained part of Athens' and Europe's 'polite society', not once taking to the streets.

When the Global Crisis erupted in 2008, and soon engulfed the Eurozone, I began writing articles and making frantic appearances in established and less mainstream media alike, promoting a fundamentally bourgeois agenda for saving capitalism from itself! When the going got really tough, at a personal level, in Greece, I migrated to the USA and took up an appointment at the University of Texas. To this day, I am struggling to impress the powers-that-be that they must urgently adopt specific bold policy recommendations in order to prevent an inevitable crisis from crushing capitalism. In summary, not one of my academic publications can be thought of as explicitly Marxist, while my energies are channeled into preventing capitalism's collapse. Nonetheless, all along, from my student days in Britain to this very day, the only way I could make sense of the world we live in is through the methodological 'eyes' of Karl Marx. In itself, this 'fact' renders me a theoretical Marxist. Moreover, I feel Marxism in my bones every time I am engaged in any form of intellectual pursuit: from discussing the Arab Spring to debating the intricacies of Art with my artist partner. Furthermore, a democratic, libertarian, socialist future is the only future that I would be willing to fight for. A most peculiar Marxist no doubt, but a Marxist nevertheless.

Piketty's book, more than just being a weighty doorstop, is about the problem of inequality and how capitalism only makes it worse. The haves have way too much and are gaining more each day while the have-nots have less and less as each day passes. It contains an academic and mathematical "proof" of his thesis, plus empirical data to back it up, which is that capitalism leads to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer at a rate where the return on wealth (the risk-free income received from savings, investments, wealth and capital without doing any work and without touching the principle) amounts to a third of GDP and the total liquidation value of that wealth grows to six times GDP.

In other words, one third of all of the productive output of the global labor force goes to service the consumption of the non-working capitalists, and the remaining two-thirds goes back to the labor force. Furthermore, since wealth can be inherited and passed on from generation to generation, as long as the wealthy save a portion of their labor-free income at a higher rate than the poor save a portion of their labor wages, the wealth gap grows larger and larger.

Yanis thinks Picketty did a terrible job proving his thesis. From section 5 titled Why, oh why?:


So, why? Why base such a weighty treatise, as Capital in the Twenty-First Century clearly is, on shaky theoretical foundations? If I were allowed to speculate on this question, I would be tempted to outline two reasons. One is expediency. Professor Piketty’s analysis allowed him to come up with some very catchy numbers; e.g. the ‘result’ that when the rate of return to wealth is at its historic average of around 5%, there is a tendency for wealth to grow to more than six times the level of GDP and for income accruing to wealth to converge to one third of GDP (see note 9). This is the stuff that contributes to headlines that journalists and the wider public are eager to consume. But to come up with these numbers, and then argue that they are reflected in the empirical data, the author had to ‘close’ his model; he had somehow to snatch determinacy from the jaws of radical indeterminacy. And if this requires incorrigible assumptions that are ill equipped to sustain the cold light of critical analysis, one may be tempted to assume that the wider public will never know or care. Catchy numbers, in combination with excellent marketing, are bound to over-rule any objections like the ones appearing in this journal in general and in the present paper in particular.

Piketty’s policy recommendation for stemming "inequality’s triumphant march" is a global wealth tax, which Yanis doesn't like. While he agrees with Piketty's thesis in spirit, he's tired of leftists making weak arguments and policy recommentations which are easily defeated by smart people on the right. From the conclusion (sect. 7):


Consider what the implementation of this global wealth tax would mean:

Returning to the long-suffering Eurozone, let us pay a visit to one of the thousands of Irish families whose members remain unemployed, or terribly under-paid and under-employed, but whose house has ‘managed’ to escape the travails of negative equity. According to Professor Piketty, these wretched people should now be paying a new wealth tax on the remaining equity of their homes, in addition to their remaining mortgage repayments. Independently of their income streams!

Taking our leave from these suffering families, whom Professor Piketty’s wealth tax would burden further, let us now turn to a Greek industrialist struggling to survive the twin assaults from non-existent demand and from the severe credit crunch. Let us suppose that her capital stock has not lost all of its value yet. Well, soon after Professor Piketty’s policy is enacted, it most certainly will, as she must now cough up a wealth tax that is to be paid from a non-existent income stream.

How long will it take, dear reader, before committed libertarians, who believe that wealth and income inequality is not only fine but also an inevitable repercussion of liberty-at-work, latch on to the above repercussions of Professor Piketty’s policy proposals? Why would they hesitate before blowing his analysis and recommended policies out of the proverbial water, castigating them as sloppy theorising leading to policies that simultaneously (a) worsen a bad set of socio-economic circumstances and (b) threaten basic liberties and rights?



Moving on to the realm of political philosophy, some years back I expressed the view that well-meaning proponents of distributive justice and equality were perhaps egalitarianism’s greatest threat…

Arguing from the perspective of a radical egalitarian, I conceded that the libertarians had the better tunes. That their focus on the justice of the process generating values and what distributes them (i.e. their dedication to procedural theories of justice) was significantly more interesting, useful and, indeed, progressive than the pseudo-egalitarian dedication to end-state, distributive, theories of justice. That the libertarians’ readiness to separate ‘good’ from ‘bad’ inequality, rather than to treat inequality as a single, uni-dimensional metric, held more promise to those who wished to understand the vagaries, and instability, of capitalism than the social democrats’ protestations that income and wealth outcomes were too unequal. That those interested in reinvigorating a pragmatic, radical egalitarianism should abandon static notions, and simple metrics, of equality.

Reading Capital in the Twenty-First Century reminded me of how the cause of egalitarianism is often undermined by its most famous, mainstream proponents. John Rawls… did untold damage to the egalitarian ‘cause’ by offering a static theory of justice that crumbled the moment a talented libertarian took a shot at it. Professor Piketty’s book will, I am convinced, prove even easier prey for today’s, or tomorrow’s, equivalent of Robert Nozick. And when this happens, the multitude that are now celebrating Capital in the Twenty-First Century as a staunch ally in the war against inequality will run for cover.

Down at the bottom of this post you'll find the video of Yanis' keynote address (with the same title as this post) to a room full of angry Marxists who, you'll learn during the Q&A, are skeptical that Yanis is really one of them. It's long like the last one, and also like the last one the first half is the speech and the last half is the Q&A, but I think you'll really enjoy this video just like the last one.

In it, you'll learn that Yanis despises economics, and he views himself as someone who has used his own personal sacrifice of half of his life spent learning economics and becoming a professor to gain entry into the top level of economic dialogue (e.g., being invited to speak to central bankers, right-wing politicians and MSM news outlets like Bloomberg) in a subversive way, kind of like a Marxist spy who has withheld his true agenda.

He says that, because some of his statements seem so harsh on the surface, he is always getting contacted by right wingers "and Ron Paul types" who think he's like them.

These Marxists hate "capitalism", or actually they hate what they think is capitalism and what they refer to as capitalism which is really just the ridiculous $IMFS which we hate as well, albeit for slightly different ideological reasons. So in a way, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing comes into play here a bit in that Yanis and I both think the same thing about the $IMFS—that it is imploding—only he calls it capitalism.

In the video, he says repeatedly that he wants to save capitalism from itself, and what he means is that he wants to save the world and the international monetary system from falling into a global depression worse than the 1930s, caused by the collapse of the $IMFS/capitalism. As we often say about people like this, he's so close yet so far away.

Here's a line from Yanis in the video below:


"Think about capitalism… it is a metaphorical production line that produces two things simultaneously: immense wealth and unprecedented poverty. "

You see, his complaint about capitalism is the same as my complaint about the $IMFS. When savers save in debt, it leads to not only way too much debt, but also a conflict of interests between the debtors and the savers.

I want to you spend a little bit of time thinking about the many ways in which Yanis' "capitalism" and my "$IMFS" are the same thing. Probably the biggest problem with the $IMFS over the last couple of decades, and a problem which led directly to the financial crisis in 2008 when Yanis says the "surplus recycling mechanism" died, is the securitization of debt by the banks.

They did this because of overwhelming demand for those securities from savers like the PBoC, German pension funds, and just about everyone else for that matter. It was not because the banks wanted to increase their loan books that they drove lending standards into the gutter creating Subprime and all kinds of other problems. It was because they could offload that risk, sell it to someone else, and make a tidy commission in the process.

With that in mind, here's a short anecdote from another presentation Yanis gave in 2013, this one titled The Dirty War for Europe’s Integrity and Soul. Yanis began his presentation like this, "allow me to begin with several ‘true stories’ that will, hopefully, transport you into the Europe that I inhabit. Each of my tales will come with a short title." The tales had titles like "Error", "Denial", "Impotence", "Despotism", "Ignorance", "Wickedness" and "Serpent DNA", which should give you an idea of the tone.

This was one of the shortest, and it was titled "Frenzy":


Franz, not his real name, worked for a major German bank for twenty-five years. In 2011 he confided to me that the Euro’s ‘good’ years, before 2008, had been the worst of his life. From 1999 to 2008 the pressure from his bank’s Frankfurt HQ on executives like him was relentless. Before the Euro, his job entailed flying around European capitals, assessing the credit worthiness of governments, local authorities, utilities, developers, local banks, large businesses; playing hard to get with them, and eventually signing off on loans that made sense to him. However, once the Euro was established the Frenzy began in earnest. HQ was pressurizing him incessantly to lend, lend, lend. When he warned them that increased lending would mean subprime loans to iffy customers, they couldn’t care less. It was all about securing a higher share of the Euro market than other banks – French banks in particular – who were also on a lending spree. And since total lending effected was linked to his and his bosses’ bonuses, Franz and his colleagues were sent to Dublin, to Madrid, to Athens, to every nook and cranny with a hitherto low level of indebtedness. Their mission? To increase it. “I lived the life of a predator lender”, he added.

Notice the correlation/causation fallacy. Because the predatory lending began around the same time as the euro, causation is lumped onto the euro. But this same phenomenon was happening on Wall Street and Main Street USA as well, perhaps even more so. The new single currency in Europe no doubt made it easier for the German banks to jump borders, but it was an $IMFS game nonetheless. Remember it was Goldman Sachs that reportedly taught the Greek government how to really take advantage of the new euro by ramping up its spending and its debt in the early years. Was that caused by the euro, capitalism, or the $IMFS?

This is Yanis' view of capitalism's drive—predatory lending—which, as I argue, is simply the result of extra demand from the Savers (a group distinct from—and much larger than—professional investors, speculators and traders) for more debt to save. Physical assets rise in value as more Savers save in them, but debt must rise in volume in order to accommodate a growth in savings. One increases the debt level while lowering interest rates and lending standards leading to all kinds of problems in the real economy, and the other does not.

Of course professional investors, speculators and traders will always invest, speculate and trade in debt and equity ownership in other people's businesses. But, in the future explored on this blog, they will have to be sharp to pick the winners, and they will be competing against the banks which can always underbid them for the best borrowers, so risk will be ever present for private money that wants to generate a return.

Banks don't care about the occasional socialization which eats away at the currency's real value because their nominal balance sheets don't change with the currency. If the currency devalues, then their assets and liabilities devalue simultaneously and their net position stays the same. And if Savers saved in real physical wealth assets rather than debt and currency, they wouldn't care either.

Just imagine if all debt was held by banks. Now imagine that only the best debt is held by banks, and the more risky debt is held by private money chasing a yield. That's how I imagine the future will be. Just because the Savers stop recycling their surpluses to the Debtors does not necessarily mean a credit crunch. Banks can theoretically issue all debt up to the point at which their CB will no longer monetize that debt which goes bad, and the investors, speculators and traders can tempt fate with the rest.

Here's a simple fact which hasn't been discussed a whole lot. We have been brought up with the premise that if we can somehow obtain a large enough fortune, then we can sit back and live off the interest risk-free without ever touching the principle, pass that principle on to our children and they can do the same into perpetuity. This is a false premise, even if it has worked for the last 40 years.

Yes, you can put your money to work and, if you are successful, live off of only the yield while growing or not touching the principle. But you can't do so risk-free, and that's where millions of Savers have been misled. In reality, you save during your working years, and later live off of those savings by running them down. There's no such thing as a risk free return on capital, an old lesson that old money knows all too well, and the rest of us will learn soon enough.

For savings to work properly like this, over long periods of time, requires a salient focal point physical wealth asset with a long history of being used for that purpose. That is not stamp collecting, fine art, or even a garage full of Ferraris. It is gold, not as part of the monetary system, but as a real, physical wealth asset just like Yanis used stamps, art and Ferraris to explain.

In the speech below, Yanis explains one of his subversive tactics which he learned from Marx. Marx called it immanent criticism, which is where, rather than attacking your enemy's premises, you accept them as a given for the sake of argument, and then show your enemy that he is failing his own principles. I wonder if anyone has tried this tactic on Yanis yet. ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA


507 comments:

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The Jackalope said...

@Canadarob You bring up a very good point. I also follow koos and I think he's doing the best research on physical gold flows today. If you believe his data. the SGE is essentially consuming all mining supply in the world. Add in the 300-500 tons that China is producing and not exporting, it seems difficult to fathom how Indian and the rest of Asias demands are met year after year if there is any sort of tightness in the physical supply. Thats where I really started to question freegold. the numbers are there, and month after month demand is met. At some point a shortage needs to show itself or the theory of tight supply needs to be questioned. As a matter of fact thats when I started posting here regularly, to share my anecdotal story of trying to source in size. I think the assumption made here that gold is in very short supply is incorrect, and I think an honest reading of the available data proves it. I still find the idea that freegold will be triggered when owners of gold refuse to sell, but I still think the available flow data at the very least justifies a more jaundiced examination of the idea that supply is super tight.

Alan Hayes said...

@Stu Thanks for your contribution to the comments here. Your skepticism and honest questions have not made you very welcome amongst some of the regulars here. But I for one appreciate it. I've been a happy lurker here for a few years, and am mostly on board... mostly :) But I do find it important to ask oneself the hard questions, and continue asking them.

Alan Hayes said...

Thanks also to @Phat Repat :)

Jeff said...

Rob,

It would look funny and alarming if consumption outstripped supply wouldn't it? Fortunately that never quite happens. ;) Maybe it will make more sense if we replace 'shortage' with 'corner'. Have you read FOFOA's 'Checkmate' post?

FOFOA: Let's try accepting Another's words at face value and see where they lead. Barrick switched from oil to gold mining in 1983/84. Annual global gold mine production in 1985 was just under 50 million ounces. If technology and the new paper market could have helped expand that "five times over" it would have eventually reached 250 million ounces per year. But that didn't happen. In 1990 annual production had increased 20% to about 60 million ounces, 72 million ounces per year by 1995 and about 82 million ounces in 2000 where the growth cycle ended. A total increase of 64% rather than the 500% increase they had hoped for. But even that should be enough gold for the East, right? I mean, how much useless metal do they need?

ANOTHER: Gold is cornered. Plain and simple. No complicated theories, no options problems. The commodity value of gold was forced so low in paper currency terms that all of the new mined gold, going out some 10 years is spoken for.

Now the CBs will have to sell 1/3 to 1/2 of their gold just to cover what's out there. To use the Queen's English "it ain't gona happen dude"!

If the current price of oil doesn't change soon we will no doubt run out of gold.

FOFOA: That was in 1997. "All of the new mined gold, going out some 10 years is spoken for." You can do the math. So how much useless metal do those barbarians in the East really need?

Jeff said...

You mean I won't see the 'shortage' coming?

FOFOA: The point is, I wouldn't expect the underlying cause of the drain to transfer "short term vibrations" into the daily reporting of the drain, I only expect it to show up in the greater trend. Therefore I think it is more likely that there must be a more mundane explanation for the reporting anomalies that we see, something we simply don't know about and therefore haven't even considered. That's the way I apply Occam's razor to a situation like this.

I expect the short-term machinations of the system to appear outwardly normal right up until the moment the pistons seize up and the whole machine comes to a grinding halt. That's the way these things usually seem to end. So I expect that could happen at any moment, without visible warning signs.

ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) : Sir, the plan is good, the question is, "how good is your broker"? Noone can know how this world change will come about, in specifics. The gold market may lock at $400? Or $4,000! When the public perception does come to understand, many entities I know of will not be buying "at the market" as your broker will. These ones, they will be "above the market", "well above the market"! Will you bid $1,000 when your broker screen shows $475? I myself, as a country will be "there"! You sir, will stand well behind most in line.

FOFOA: You won't be able to buy any more gold, unless you are willing to outbid (pay more than) all the other bidders for the scarce scraps that are being liquidated by a few shrimps like you to meet personal expenses.

APMEX will report "out of stock" on everything. There will be no known price to advertise, even if they had inventory. You will call several dealers when you are ready to sell and ask for their bids on your Maple Leaf. They will either spit out a bid that will take your breath away, or they will say they'll call you back after they get bids from their buyers. You will sell to the highest bidding dealer, but you won't buy any gold unless you, yourself are the highest bidder.

An official market transmits an official price because somewhere on the supply chain a dealer won't pay more because he can get it from the official market maker at a known price. Or, he won't sell for less because he can sell to the official market maker. Dealers won't be selling their own inventory while gold is in hiding. They'll only be bringing buyers and sellers together through the "auction process" and they'll be earning a spread. The dealer will pit his buyers against each other just like you will pit the dealers against each other.

During this time, after the paper market has failed, that GIANT sucking sound you hear when you call your dealer and mention that you have some gold for sale will be the CBs and Giants somewhere at the other end of the dealer network with their unlimited currency, their insatiable demand for gold, and their standing over-bid acting like a giant concubine sucking a golden golf ball down a tiny hose. Let's call these Giants and CBs "the buyers of last resort" for gold. Another said they stand ready to buy any and all physical gold offered for sale.

Canadarob said...

Alan, asking questions to get more answers is a great thing. Probably the only reason most people are here. The difference between trolls and the ones who want to learn is, trolls assume that a hole in their understanding equals a hole in the theory.

tEON said...

@Jeff

Thanks Jeff, you are one of my favorite posters here. You are very grounded in your understanding - which dramatically helps. Your references are GOLD! :)

Canadarob said...

Jeff,
Thanks for the input. I'll go back and re-read checkmate and digest what you've just posted. I've read everything already but apparently global, behind the scenes, macro-economics is not something you can just understand over the weekend. ;)

The Jackalope said...

Or you could just look at the actual black and white data staring you n the face and see there is no shortage.

Unknown said...

Why can't shrimp buying lead to shortage? Indian and Chinese individual buying is pretty substantial.
But in short, the one factor that can lead to shortage overnight is the fractional reserve nature of selling. As Jeff Christian testified to CFTC; Paper gold trades in multiple of a hundred to the underlying metal. That still excludes derivatives....

Motley Fool said...

CanadaRob

That's actually a tough question to answer succinctly. I will make an attempt.

Let's start with supply and demand dynamics.

We have a fairly good estimation of mining output and scrap supply. We also have reasonable estimates for demand, which we get by aggregating all official sources of information and making some conservative assumptions on the rest.

At present there appears to be a mismatch between the two, even with conservative estimates for demand. This implies that the difference has to be made up by illegal mining and old stock flowing again. Who is supplying old stock is one of the questions I am still pondering. The gold market is very opaque, so some things we cannot know.

Regardless, supply and demand must be balanced by definition.

I don't consider this a useful way to consider the question however. Let us rather contemplate the big picture.

The amount of gold in existence is some 6 billion ounces. At current market valuation this puts it at about $7.2 trillion dollars worth.

I will be making some implicit assumptions in the next part.

Consider that the purpose of gold is storage of savings. Consider that a large part of this function is currently being filled by ever increasing sovereign debts. Consider that such increasing debts are not repayable in real terms and that it's increase is causing building strain in the currencies themselves that will lead to massive devaluations.

Bearing these facts in mind it is clear that sovereign debt as store of value will fail. It is imperative for those who wish to store value to front run such an event and protect themselves from such losses. Clearly the value represented will not disappear, it will merely be redirected into other assets. By the conjecture of this blog the main beneficiary of this will be gold.

Now consider what savings is. In one sense it is deferred present consumption. In another sense it is future consumption. In another sense it is future production. I want to focus on the last.

That which gold will be spent on in future, is that which will be produced in future using current and future capital stock.

Obviously the time preference of consumption varies for individual players. However as a first order approximation let us assume that all gold will go through one sale for consumption cycle over the next 50 years (human working lifespan). Clearly this assumption is incorrect, and will imply a much higher stock and flow than reality, but bear with me. Let us also assume all savings will be represented by gold. Clearly this assumption is also incorrect as there are many other stores of value. Luckily these two assumptions work against each other, which makes the final answer for this approximation with both assumptions closer to reality.

If you consider the value of all human production for the next 50 years, let's just call it global GDP times 50 in today's terms, versus the amount of gold in existence it is clear that gold is very scarce In Terms Of It's Current Price today. The point here is not to guess a price for gold, that would be silly with such simplistic assumptions. It is just to get a ballpark idea of whether gold is valued correctly.

We can of course make second order, third order, etc approximations which will give us a better idea, but the point here is to illustrate the concept.

(Alternatively, if we just take the current stores of values and aggregate them we will arrive at a very large number. If we allocate the bulk of that to gold, bearing in mind the instability of the present system, clearly gold is undervalued relative to it's future function.)

I hope this assists you in getting a handle on the question.

TF

Unknown said...

When discussing old stock flow I think one should also refer to GATA.org and Antal Fekete who have put a fair effort in since late 90's to analyse and explain sources of additional gold being sold.
Or one can just search what Greenspan has said 'Gold is a thermometer of the market, but by selling some gold one can affect the behaviour of the economy' (paraphrased) and the classical "We stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should it's price rise".

Jeff said...

Micki,

Good luck cornering the paper gold printing press; more paper gold can always be created to meet demand, but more physical may not always be supplied to back it.

FOFOA: First, let me ask you a question. Which of these two scenarios should be more instrumental in the transition to Freegold?

1.) A bottom-up shift in value perception as millions and even billions of small savers use their meager dollars all at once to bid up the price of gold.

2.) A top-down shift in risk perception as the very few physical gold holders of size in the world all at once withdraw their physical from the marketplace.

Just think about this question. That is its only purpose. And one more; Would either of these events be exclusive of the other?


(...)

Fekete says backwardation is when "zero [gold] supply confronts infinite [dollar] demand." I am saying it is when "infinite supply of dollars confronts zero demand from real, physical gold... in the necessary VOLUME." So what's the difference? Viewed this way, can anyone show me how we are not there right now? And I'm not talking about your local gold dealer bidding on your $1,200 with his gold coin. I'm talking about Giant hoards of unencumbered physical gold the dollar NEEDS bids from.

And in my - purely speculative - analysis, "the BIS gold swap" CONFIRMS this view!

What the bullion banks do is they take a piece of gold and they inflate it 1,000% and sometimes up to 10,000% so it appears to be a SUPER BID for dollars. And they prefer to do this by LEASING gold (borrowing your gold) rather than buying it outright. It's a lot cheaper that way.

The dollar NEEDS voluntary bids from private physical gold to survive. My guess is that pool of REAL bids of size is bone dry and cracking. And "dollar liquidity" is just a cheap façade at this point. This is why the dollar NEEDS a rising gold price. As the price (for selling, not borrowing gold) rises, weak little bits of gold here and there will bid for dollars.

Of course that won't be enough (dollar demand from gold) to float the dollar for long. Gold must EXPLODE to reach equilibrium.

DP said...

We stand ready to buy physical gold in increasing quantities should it's price fall below production cost

Motley Fool said...

As a point of interest, since it occurred to me.

For a reasonable second order approximation we would start by noting that not all future consumption will be funded by current savings. Let us estimate that 10% of consumption would be funded this way.

Furthermore (to get nice numbers) let's assume about 40% of current gold is cycled this way, say $3T worth.

We can then compare the current value of the stock to the future being 10% of 50x$60 trillion = $300T and note a hundredfold increase in price is required.

For a reasonable third order approximation we would shift the percentage of gold to a more reasonable 65% used this way, change the cycle length to 40 years, use a more recent value for world GDP – wiki suggests perhaps $80 Trillion. The 10% was a thumbsuck. I have no idea what the actual percentage is, but one could certainly attempt refining it too.

This would yield a valuation disparity ratio of 68.

It is interesting to note that we can in essence ignore other forms of wealth.

Only the truly wealthy own things such as fine art, and those would also be the last things to be sold if such a family falls on hard times and needs to fund consumption. The percentage of such things happening is not very high and as such we can pretty much ignore that effect.

This then is another of my attempts to guess the future price of gold. My last approximation yields : $82,000 in current purchasing power. ;D

TF

Roacheforque said...

Gentlemen,
There is no shortage of gold. Many tons of it exist both above ground and below. What there is a shortage of (as Rodney Dangerfield would say) is RESPECT!

Once gold is properly "respected" for the historic repurpose it serves to recapitalize the global economy ...once it is valued properly as the only available solution to restructure the global monetary engine that fuels progress and keeps civilization from collapsing into a depressionary "dark age" ... there will STILL be NO shortage of the stuff.

But the FLOW will stop ... as thoughts about what it's relative worth is in the new paradigm undergo a transformational period of alignment.

Just as the dollar today is "stronger than death" and yet is destined to be "unfit for ass-wiping" after its intrinsic value is revealed ... so shall gold undergo an inverse revaluation process.

When "no value will do" we do not let go of a thing for fear that we are selling it too cheaply at a time when it is "incalculably dear".

This is not a supply issue, i.e. "shortage" but rather a flow isssue, i.e. "blockage".

It can happen any time an event causes thoughts to change. If all "investors" were suddenly hip to freegold tomorrow, it would happen then.

But the yield whores keep the current game flowing, and keep "systemically important thoughts" in check.

Hyperinflation, like gold revaluation, is a psychological phenomenon, and has little to do with supply. If supply mattered, the price hyperinflation matching the gross over-supply of dollars would have long been past history.

Unknown said...

@Stu, you are correct in that - There is NO SHORTAGE! As long as we shrimps and The Giants are still able to acquire gold, there is no shortage. The moment the shortage occurs - no gold to meet the demand (at the giant level) - it is GAME OVER!

@PeaknikMicki, Who says shrimp buying cannot lead to shortage? Individual shrimp buying will not, but massive shrimp buying (like China and India) will contribute to the COMING SHORTAGE.

Mr orange said...

With free gold imminent I expect a few victory laps fofoa, I hope people realize and appreciate after the fact on just how genius this blog has been not just with the big reveal but with everything that has played out with the dollar, oil markets, deflationary collapse, hyperinflation etc is all playing out just as you said,,,,,thank you

My favorite post and quote is peak exorbitant consumption it's beats kyle basses optical backstop quote for 1st place. I've had a lot of laughs after having fox urine thrown in my face for better part of a decade

I was watching cnbc two years back and one of the regional fed guys was being interviewed and he said you just need some really good advice because we aren't going to collapse people are going to have digestion issues though,,,,,,thank you for your confidence and sense of humor

Indenture said...

Kyle Bass: ""We have been conditioned to believe there is always this savior out there," Bass said. "There's an optical backstop designed to make everyone believe countries can't default."

"It's where we stand to day on Greece on Italy. I think it's really important to think through that psychology," he said. "Those optics are starting to come into question.""

Indenture said...

15 Brilliant Insights From Hedge Fund Superstar Kyle Bass

fftastic said...

How will gold be called in the FG era?
Reserve of Safety?

------

from 2009

JEAN PIERRE ELKABBACH:
"But as the Governor of the Banque de France and member of the ECB’s governing council, you are aware that the euro is currently subject to growing scepticism. Do you think it will still exist in let’s say one year, two years, or three years time? "

CHRISTIAN NOYER
"I have no doubt that it will still exist. The euro is an irreversible choice. The euro is a currency based on a system that can function perfectly well. We have a temporary problem not related to the currency, that of Member State budget control over the first ten years of the euro’s existence which simply needs to be resolved. And the Member States have already taken the right decisions... they simply need to implement them."

*my note: FG confirmed by the governor of the BdF!

--------

FG also proposed by Zoellick (World Bank) in 2010!

or alternative link


No known distinct FG hints from China! None from Russia or India. But all three are goldbugs. Maybe that's a tell to. At least there will be no resistance from their part.

I dare to claim that the arrival of FG, altough prepared and scheduled, could be delayed through martial law in the US in the fall of 2016 or war in the middle east. Sorry for that, dear fellow cult members. But i also think, we could be about 15 years away from FreeEnergy and FreeGold (as well as Peace) is a precondition for the survival of humanity. Let's see...



Michael dV said...

fft..
I can't say I believe that humanity's survival is assured. We are capable of screwing that up too. If we do not get a better source of energy we will either have to live with fewer mouthes the feed or with a reduced level of energy consumption per capita.
In my FG fantasy I see the world much like it is now but with some wealthy due to gold. The reality is that the transition to a new monetary system will be far messier as the 'haves' will fight like hell to remain 'haves'. Ultimately the strong (in gold) will survive but I think it is wise to be well prepared for many 'a slip' as we prepare to 'sip'.
I suppose martial law is not out of the question but unpaid stooges make poor enforcers.
I think the best plan would allow one to lay low for at least 3 months without having to obtain anything from outside. Beyond that any plans are just daydreaming as the variables are too numerous.

Dante_Eu said...

Hryvnia goes hryvnibolic

One down, who's next? :-)

Edwardo said...

What does it cost to mine an ounce of gold? For, Newmont Mining, one of the bigger producers in existence, the all-in sustaining cost was $927 per ounce of gold in the fourth quarter. That was down from $1,043 per ounce in the same period a year ago. For the year the AISC fell from $1,113 in 2013 to $1,002 per ounce.

tEON said...

1/2

Gold: Economy's Ace in the Hole or How Gold's revaluation benefits a consumer-driven economy

Many may recall Paul Krugman's Platinum coin solution for the US breaching its debt ceiling in January of 2013. It amounted to the US minting a pair of commemorative $1 trillion 'collector's item' Platinum coins — then depositing them at the Fed, and the Treasury could acquire enough cash to sidestep the debt ceiling — while, according to Mr. Krugman, "doing no economic harm at all". Silly, but it makes you think.

With the velocity of 'money' currently plummeting , the Global Economy has another issue to consider rather than minting bogus coins. It seems printing trillions of dollars of currency and shrinking Interest rates to close to zero, isn't doing the heavy-lifting that the central planners might have been anticipating. In fact, in the long term these attempts are only damaging. Inciting the dreaded 'H' word that the MSM refuses to utter. People aren't spending... because people don't have money. Borrowing money (at record low interest rates) isn't a structural, long-term, solution for a Consumer-driven economy with a huge trade-deficit like the USA. This is another immediate problem that should be addressed.

How can the planners put $'s in its citizen's pockets, without abnormally advancing the currency supply or simply encouraging, more, excessive debt? Drop money from helicopters? Mail every adult a cheque for $X,000's ? Cash For Clunkers, Subprime mortgages to anyone with a pulse. The latter two were stop-gap with a painful bubble, eventually, bursting.

The LBMA states the statistical ratio of paper gold to physical gold is, approximately, 112:1. Informed Gold Bugs will lecture you that the price denomination of Gold is manipulated, or held down, by governments who fear it competitiveness with the currency. Hence the disparity ($1,200/oz Gold as opposed to $134,400/oz Gold) It makes sense that the paper market for Gold should actually collapse if veering toward its true value. Yet every Gold commentator, in the past few years, seems to have, inaccurately, predicted a rise in the (paper) price of Gold. Physical Gold can only be fully demonetized by the, ruling, paper price reaching its intrinsic value... zero. If the denominated price is manipulated - it is only through creation, buying or selling of further paper representation. Which, essentially, doesn't affect Gold's physical value - if you hold it rather than trade it. Let's consider the paper price of Gold to be supported - and that support removed - allowing its fatal waterfall decline.

Your average American only owns Gold as jewelry (10K or 14K wedding bands, watches, rings, necklaces etc.)... but that is still gold! In fact most of the individually held gold consists of minor jewelry. If you own coins or bars you are the exception.

tEON said...

2/2

If physical Gold is able to reach its intrinsic value, overnight - how is the marketplace affected? Forgetting the benefits of its ability to balance and stabilize trade. As gold really isn't a commodity - not being used to any manner in goods and services - its effect would be limited. Miners, representing 'Gold in the ground', would be handcuffed by some government enforcement - heavily taxed or Nationalized - stemming their volatile marketplace reaction of an astronomic price increase. As a Giffen Good (people, unusually, secure more as the price rises), Gold's slow, but continuous escalation to its intrinsic value would incite, unrequested, unwanted and unhealthy, monetary panic. It's only, allowable, manner of re-pricing would be an unanticipated, overnight, revaluation, and immediate policing of mining companies and potential legal authorization of Gold found 'in the ground'.

If physical Gold does reach its intrinsic value overnight - how is the consumer affected? Their gold wedding bands, necklaces, and gold in watches increases up to 112X its present amount. The $500 worth of Gold in their bauble - now $56,000 in spending money... without, ineffectual, central planning schemes. Undoubtedly fodder for a new car, trip to the Caribbean, home theatre... as opposed to paying off current debt. The consumer-driven economy is temporarily sated. Of course countries in anticipation of a significant revaluation of Gold, would encourage their citizens to own it - filling the coffers of its future consumer base.

Sam said...

Who wrote that Teon

Unknown said...

@ Stu,
Gold flowed for 7 years without a slightest hint of shortage from 1961 to 1968. On March 17, 1968, the London Gold Pool collapsed and the global gold markets were closed for several weeks. The central bankers then decreed a “two-tier” gold price for “monetary” gold at $35/oz. and “non-monetary” gold.
https://www.nolanchart.com/article6535-rip-the-london-gold-pool-19611968-html

tEON said...

Making investment decisions based on visible Gold flow data is a mistake. Just ask Eric Sprott... or his clients. His broken-record supply/demand mantra has probably altered his Billionaire-status to the negative. I know a buddy who is a client - who is down 80%. Gold data may have some transparency, but not enough to make definitive statements worth gambling on - not when paper denominates. Anyway, it can change on a dime since flow is always relatively tight (98% lies 'still'). The last significant (paper) price decline (April 2013? - $1700 to $1300), the coin store I've been known to visit (one of the larger in the country I reside), sold all of their product, amusingly with Silver sellers lined-up out the door. Their main supplier (the largest) could give no date for shipping them more AU. The manager told me this over 1.5 years later.

Strangely, on the Gold data/Sprott front - Mr. Frank Veneroso (of The Gold Book Annual 1998 fame, frequently cited by Eric) was one who has predicted a dramatic Oil Price decline for the past X years, actually he was way ahead of the curve - deeply affecting his credibility, I might add. The other notable would be Robert Prechter (of his "15 Minutes of Fame"). His call might have been 'below $35' - of was it $10?- I don't recall - so maybe we'll start to see him a lot on CNBC (as prophesied in The Shoeshine Boy) if/when Oil falls further.

Unknown said...

@teon,
It was April 2013 - $1700 to $1400. I bought 5 oz. of AG in May to see whether there was a shortage or not. I got mine delivered in couple of weeks.
I think the big boys will move heaven and earth to satisfy the demands from the shrimps just as 1961-1968 until some lose their nerves and break ranks - Germany and Netherland?

Steve said...

@tEON, you sound so.......Fffo..ff..oooaa..ish. Then again, just woke up and still a bit in lala-land. Had a great dream though, to offer Stu a swap, his gold rocks for my little sisters fine art productions (mainly watercolors and pencils) at 1oz/piece. I am sure with the newly acquired flipping-skills Stu can 'flip' them for 2k each. Everyone is a winner!

vizeet srivastava said...

I see FG as beginning of change and not utopia.

fftastic said...

German humor...

MatrixSentry said...

We shrimps will see minuscule flow at the periphery until the very end. The flow is already severely restricted at the core, where Giants hang out and cannot be filled in size. This is not a new development, it has been going on for a long time. What is getting worse is the mismatch between what a Giant could want to buy and what he can actually take in delivery. Simultaneously since the top, the market has shaken a lot of gold from weak hands. As price continues to show weakness, gold stock has little incentive to liquidate. In fact, the opposite occurs where gold value seekers see an opportunity to acquire at bargain prices. Central banks have seen that opportunity. Giants get Gianter in credit and the gold flow they can nibble from shrinks. More and more Balloon Dogs, fewer tons of gold.

Focusing on supply and demand is a waste of time. What supply? What demand? Both are determined by the reality of existence within the $IMFS. Demand for gold in the $IMFS has to be largely limited to gold credit because there isn't enough flow to service the required tonnage at the paper price.

So looking within the system for a significant change in supply and demand is not going to satisfy. What we need to look for is the shift in the nature of demand. A shift from the demand for credit to the demand for wholly owned assets. So little of the total demand for gold is needed to completely overwhelm physical flow. It is not as if every Giant in gold credit has to simultaneously move to physical. Gold credit is so massively leveraged, just a small fraction needs to move to allocation in order to trigger a mass default in physical.

When this occurs it will occur in an instant. Likely it will occur behind closed doors in order for the most powerful and systemically important to be able to get their gold. Demand for gold credit will go to zero. Demand for bullion will go to infinity. Supply of gold credit can go to infinity (relative to demand), and flow of bullion will go to zero. All occurring while you sleep, or while you eat your breakfast, or during your Sunday morning at church. You will know nothing of this important shift in demand until you are presented with news that the gold market is closed. Having read about this possibility here on the blog, you will suspect something has changed. Now you are ready to make that move into bullion that you have put off in favor of opportunity (yield) in paper. Now you're scared.

Oops, too late.

Stu, Fart, and others here who try to detract from this message are offering you a simple choice. To choose to look within the $IMFS using a lens developed to focus on the details of that system. FOFOA is offering you another lens that is designed to focus on details of a system that will replace the $IMFS in an instant. If you cannot see this transition, or you cannot see it occurring within a useful span of time to you and your family, you should fold tent and move on to a different blog. Trolls will not move on because they have a different agenda altogether. They are driven by insecurity and anger.

If someone is going to reject the idea that the $IMFS is dying and will give way to another IMFS, the best approach is to get the best lens possible in order to observe and navigate within the $IMFS. To me that means you must master credit and leverage in order to survive. You must be able to master ever-escalating levels of risk in order to generate a store of value, let alone a real yield. Either that or you must get comfortable with the idea that you are going to pay an ever-escalating tax on your livelihood. This is the wrong blog to develop the skills required to survive within the $IMFS. It is for those who need to survive outside the $IMFS. (cont.)

MatrixSentry said...

I no longer need to be concerned about signs or timing. I have my gold in hand. I watch for entertainment purposes. I won't have any more notice of the transition to Freegold than any other Shrimp. I simply see a restless crowd forming outside the gold bank, with the lens I developed from reading this blog. This lens is magical and allows me to understand why they are there and what their intent is.

Speaking of lenses, I developed this lens from reading the blog posts. Reading the comments has not materially honed that lens in any way. In fact, I did not read a single comment for the first few years reading the blog, and I have been here since the beginning. The reason I didn't read the comments is because I am a raging skeptic and I do not trust other opinions until I have thoroughly vetted both the material and the commentators. I have found superior results in my life when I have relied on my own intellectual capacity. I am limited in that department, but thankfully I do have a work ethic that compensates. If you aren't going to read this blog (the posts), you had better be a really sharp individual, perhaps like FOFOA himself. Asking commentators to flesh out an understanding will not work. On the other hand, reading this entire blog will take an average intellect to a Freegold expert in relatively short order. Believe me, I am living proof.

Stu either has or hasn't read the blog. If he has then he understands Freegold and rejects it. What does that say about him remaining here? Are you wondering if he is bringing up valid points? If you are you haven't read the blog. Sorry, it's that simple. I know the blog is really big. But, getting this Freegold thing right is quite a bit bigger than anything else you could be doing. Read the blog. If you do so and you think Stu has valid concerns, you will do the right thing, reject Freegold, and then move on. I think it is impossible to read the blog and then come away with doubt or the need for more clarification. It either resonates or it doesn't.

Sorry, it isn't sexy. RTFB.

Roacheforque said...

While I continue to accept the original A/FOA interpretations of the bifurcated Giant market and general ambivalence toward "gunning it" as plausible, I would add that no single Giant or group of same has the capacity to bully the flow for their own "very important" self-interests. What Giant or group of giants is more systemically important than the system itself?
Giants have been allocating/accumulating through straws for some time now, and will remain content to do so (IMHO) until the very "end". They have done quite well through the socialization of debt and will no doubt remain "bullion socialists" of the new normal stripe.

What interests me is the behavioral impact of possible future events upon the mindset of "investors" such that thousands of Stu's are tyransformed into thousands of Matrices overnight.

I believe that perceptions of gold's pricelessness can turn on as quick a dime as the d-mark's worthlessness in 1923, but we have to rethink the type of psychological event that creates this paradigm shift in today's bizarre new normal paradigm.

Hint: it won't be something that the western CB's have "under control".

Roacheforque said...

Hmmm. I don't think "tyransformed" was a Freudian slip, but maybe more of a Karmic fall?

ein anderer said...

I think it is impossible to read the blog and then come away with doubt or the need for more clarification.

It is possible, Matrix. Take my case. Medium in English, in need of a lot of time until I’ve internalized a text written in a foreign language, therefore often not able to grasp the whole thing: and therefore asked here and then, in the hope of a sentence cutting the whole thing short.
And it worked, thanks to the many who answered my questions.

BTW, sitting in good old America AND having understood Freegold AND keeping calm and collected is quite a job. Isn’t the feeling there, for somone who is knowledgable, as if sitting on a powder keg? Hope that the social ulheavals will not become to strong…

ein anderer said...

Upheavals, typo, sorry…

MatrixSentry said...

ein anderer,

Of course my view is derived from being a speaker of english as the primary (and in my case) only language. I am fortunate in this case.

My point however is for those who do not have to wrestle the subtleties of language, reading this blog in its entirety will either convince you one way or another. IOWs, there is more than sufficient material to make the case.

Xavier said...

@Stu
The bullion bank system is like a registry that keeps multiple records of ownership for the same piece of gold; except that, since title is not attached to any specific piece of gold, no one can tell which money is good and which is bad. Sometimes the fiction becomes untenable, one cannot possibly time this event, just as one cannot predict the weather, but you can know what the season is and it is winter for the Dollar. and then possession decides, more or less arbitrarily, who keeps the real wealth; those holding physical, and who loses it; those holding paper claims.

Consider currency to be speculative, and the amount you keep in it to be your risk tolerance.

Muad'Grumps said...

For the record I'm 55% invested in metal. 24% gold 3% silver 28% miners. 45% cash

I've already moved my profits from the paper upcycle into the K-wave Winter bunker. Some here misconstrue that I advocate staying in paper at this time. Absolutely not. But this notion we are to transition to a new system in which savings will be held in gold is fundamentally flawed. This blog is a very simple thought experiment but nothing more. Add complexity and poof! All kinds of contradictions arise.

Don't any of you see what China is doing? We are moving from one POG management scheme to another. The paper gold halo isn't going anywhere. China is bringing gold into the system as a deflation hedge, it's true purpose. It wants all levels of govt, corporate, banking, down to peasant workers to have some gold as a dampener to boom/bust cycles.

Tommy2Tone said...

Hmm...no savings. 100% invested.

Good luck with that, you'll need it.

Canadarob said...

Matrix, MF, Jeff and roar...rorcshack...how ever you spell that. ;)
Thanks for the help understanding the "shortage". When you mentioned " flow" roacheforque, it slapped me in the face. How could I be so stupid focusing on "shortage" so much.
Jeff, checkmate helped big time. Fofoa goes over ALL the supports for the flow now gone.
MF, I appreciate the work you put into those posts but my small brain makes it hard to understand. Sorry but thanks.
I think I've gained a lot on the flow problem. However I feel like it may be one of the weaker links in the freegold theory. Like I said before I believe the freegold is unstoppable, but for other reasons.
Does anyone else agree with me that due to the lack of clarity in the gold world, the "flow" is one of the more weaker points?
Or are some of you just as confident with "flow" as you are with all the other aspects.

Xavier said...

@FSL
I do recall reading somewhere that China was creating some paper gold scheme, that does make me think they might want it to go along longer than one might think. Perhaps all the while raising the price to coax more into the open and stretch the flow. However we cannot predict outside events that could put an end to the paper market for good and make gold stop bidding for currency.

I'm not sure how you see gold working as a deflation hedge? Can you elaborate?

Canadarob said...

Found another quote that proves martin Armstrong doesn't understand what's going on.
"We are not headed to a hyperinflation nor a gold standard – we are headed into electronic money " it seems he doesn't even understand that "electronic money" isn't a monetary system.

Mr orange said...

I have read armstrong canada rob for years, he has been all over the place the only thing I use from him is th economic consumer confidence model 8 year it's pretty accurate to my life,,,,it won't make u a dime however on anything so if u do use it u can see this sept I believe is a peak top and 2020 is peak bottom so after this sept it's all down hill for awhile,,,he has a few of these it's the 8.6 year global business cycle,,,,,,

I think at this point trying to look at global gold flows is a waste of time,,,,,,these governments are working together, China agreed to keep buying our bonds in 2011 to extend this thing out they have thousands of people down in Africa just taking gold from every which way,,,,the governments are all working together no shortages ,,,,,,

Mr orange said...

I could give you 10 examples in the markets why fofoa is right and is going down right now,,,,,,and I can give you almost ten in the real economy on why this has to happen now, I'm certainly not going to try an call to the day ,,,,,,I'm not in any one camp I'm willing to listen to anyone I'm just like everyone else but what fofoa has posted is actually playing out right now everything else I've read is all garbage,,,,,it's actually happening and happened

Sam said...

@CanadaRob

I see understanding stock and flow as a concept not a point or idea. It simply the reality of the physical gold market. It explains gold's utility to hold any value. There are many today, yesterday, and tomorrow that will think there is too much gold or not enough gold to function in an important economic role. Once you understand the stock and flow concept, it makes it clear that this will never be a real problem, just one of people’s imaginations. There is always a price that gold will flow at and therefore there is always enough gold.

The reason why the price of gold doesn't crash, like every other commodity would if its stock just kept growing with almost no consumption, is because the market as we shrimps know it, with its ridiculously low currency price, is a discount market kept right around the cost to get it out of the ground. There is an endless demand for gold yet a very limited flow and a very low price. Odd isn’t it. The reality is giant stocks of gold are held by many with no intention of ever flowing at anywhere near the price published in the paper markets. What may have later morphed into the idea of "shortages" is the idea that this discount market is under pressure not that there is suddenly no gold to meet the demand to buy it. There can be however not enough gold at the discount price to meet the demand to buy it. Letting the price rise hardly helps, again unlike any other commodity, because with gold it only brings more and more buyer demand into the market.

The discount market was designed to serve a purpose and then die. All paper fractional reserve schemes representing an underlying hard asset eventually break and so will this one. As its death becomes more and more obvious there will be less and less weak hands willing to let their gold “flow” at the discount market price in return for paper promises. When the flow stops the paper price will fall rather than rise as panicked paper holders that thought they held gold look to sell and get cash in hopes of converting it to the real stuff.

Blake said...

How will the country club set make out in Freegold? I often think about this because all of these guys are net producers/savers but few are actual giants. They hold a unique place on the spectrum of debtors and savers. I’ll define the “country club set” as those that own between $10,000,000 and $50,000,000 in assets, maybe more. But few are true hitters (i.e., above $100,000,000). I often speculate what these guys store their wealth in. I suspect it’s a mixture between real estate (stuff) and financial products (paper). I doubt any of these guys hold physical gold, or at least a substantial position in the same. I just can’t wrap my head around how these guys are going to get wiped out when the denouement comes to pass.
I’d welcome a discussion about how the upper class will fare in the new paradigm.

Sam said...

If you have over 10 million in assets you probably have maybe 1% of your net worth in gold all the way up to 5% depending on you financial advisor. Enough to break you even. You should also have enough physical stuff to be just fine. There is also the possibility that you create something the world wants which means more money in the future.

Anand Srivastava said...

Sam: But that 1-5% would probably be in paper gold. Financial advisors IMO don't see the difference between the two.

Knotty Pine said...

I have a close relative whose net worth is well north of 100 million. He made his money the old fashioned way. He turned a part-time high school job working in a concrete plant into business spanning 6 SE states.

He is a contrarian thinker and sold his concrete business and some real estate holdings in 2006 for "an offer I couldn't refuse". I remember having conversations about the housing bubble with him back then and he couldn't understand why a structure that is constantly deteriorating should be rising in value 15-20% a year.

He is not a member of "the country club set" but has no interest in gold as anything other than a short term investment. At the same time he seems to understand that the dollar is in a sense a bubble so he is always looking at hard assets in which to store PP. He has mostly bought land and much of it energy rich land in the plains.

I think he will be fine come freegold. Knowing him he probably has a healthy stack of bullion laying still somewhere.

Indenture said...

anand: I agree. The financial planner needs to be able to churn the paper and once the physical is purchased that 'money' is no longer part of the portfolio, and therefore not part of the planners controlled assets. Planners do not want to give up even 1% of their business's assets and would tell their clients they are 'in gold' and the client would feel comforted. Even if a client says they specifically wanted physical gold the financial planner take the time to convince them there is no difference between paper and physical and that the paper is more liquid. If a customer continued with the desire they would tell them to buy it themselves because that is not what 'his' company does. This inconvenience to the customer is enough to make a large percentage of the clients give up on the idea.

I think the number of physical gold holders in the 'Country Club' is much less than most believe.

Xavier said...

How's this for evidence of the two tier market? http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1424972460.php

Muad'Grumps said...

There's this misconception running thru the comments about the flow having to stop for gold to revalue. That isn't necessary. It will be central banks setting a price band that will mop up their net liabilities. That's all gold is really good for. Not a wealth reserve, not a savings vehicle. Resetting the gold price is merely starting a new game of monopoly. Gold doesn't need to flow. It just needs to be there to serve as prime collateral after deflation drains all the liquidity out of the system. Revaluing gold is the system executing a debt for equity swap. Think of gold at the bottom of Exter's Pyramid functioning as the most senior secured bondholder earning a negative real rate for much of the debt cycle. Yes, a negative real rate or at least earning less than the benchmark paper at the left end of the yield curve. Gold is risk free hence it should offer less appreciation than the yield of HighestQuality debt.


It's when HQ debt ultimately fails or needs restructuring ( Deflation) that gold as the most senior bondholder gets equity in the new deal of the cards ( Revaluation). The gold holder has a choice at that point to use this equity to expand his financial footprint or opt to remain a most senior secured bondholder at the leftmost end of the yield curve hoping at best gold will keep up with the general price level.


If gold were to consistently outperform HQ debt then what do you have? What kind of yield curve?

Here's another question to bounce around. How much of his net worth should a giant have in gold? What percentage? What percentage when economy is good? When economy's in a downturn?

Blake said...

Anand and Indenture –

I agree that if any of these guys have a position in gold, it is of the paper variety. Assuming the same, then the only way these guys make it through the transition is if they store their wealth in hard assets. In this case, I am positing that most of these guys have at least half of their wealth (maybe more) in real estate. How do we expect real estate to fare during and beyond Freegold? I know FOFOA has touched on real estate in at least one of his posts about the deflation/hyperinflation debate but I wanted to solicit everyone else’s views/thoughts.

Tommy2Tone said...

Hi Blake,

Well, recall that gold will be revalued against all goods and services. (smile)

Add to that the fact that RE has been another in a long line of bubbles (hence overvalued) and that, to me, suggests there will be deep discounts on RE.

$IMF has created lots of "wealthy" people and as these people are in the process of discovering their true wealth, I would expect many fire sales.

Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DP said...

Add to that the fact that RE has been another in a long line of bubbles (hence overvalued)

What caused the MBS/property bubble? It was the financialisation of property into a paper asset class for savers to hoard… on paper. These people did not want the underlying physical property - they just wanted exposure to any income stream, and/or exposure to the (while it is rising) value, of the underlying assets. They would not otherwise bring their money to these markets.

Financialisation of everything but gold brings money into the market for those assets, which would not otherwise be interested in the storage/management/depreciation/etc costs of holding those things. The bubble pops when the price stops rising.

But the situation in the market for gold is the opposite of this - money that would be quite interested in hoarding gold, is instead satisfied to hoard mere paper claims to gold, or other derivatives that they believe give them exposure to the underlying.

Caveat emptor.

DP said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DP said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DP said...

With the aforesaid in mind…

Check my volume.

DP said...

(And apologies for the multi-posting.)

DP said...

International Banker: Is This the End of Commodity Trading in Banks?

Hope so.

And a good weekend to all. :-)

Tommy2Tone said...

"Financialisation of everything but gold brings money into the market for those assets, which would not otherwise be interested in the storage/management/depreciation/etc costs of holding those things. The bubble pops when the price stops rising.

But the situation in the market for gold is the opposite of this - money that would be quite interested in hoarding gold, is instead satisfied to hoard mere paper claims to gold, or other derivatives that they believe give them exposure to the underlying."

DP,

I believe you are saying that gold is not like other commodities?(smile) I like that.
So paper "anything" raises that things price, yet with gold, paper "gold" actually suppresses the price.

So global "hot" money in this system (savings) just sloshes around from the next best thing to the next betterest thing in search of a true resting spot, but it can't find the cold hard bed of gold it should have, and instead spends restless nights in these paper proxies losing parts of itself. Degrading.

hmmm


DP said...

RT @me: The real problem comes when capital wants out of money, rather than just pass through markets to get moar of it.

DP said...

Or, to put that another way…

Money is ultimate safety. Right up until the second it ain't.


… And it's good night from him.

Reality Show said...

Xavier, not really. Their two tiers are the UST's official gold price, which keeps gold monetised and values the Dollar, but is not really a market, and the spot price.

Unknown said...

@ Blake,
"the only way these guys make it through the transition is if they store their wealth in hard assets. In this case, I am positing that most of these guys have at least half of their wealth (maybe more) in real estate."
I don't have over $10M but I know a few who do. I don't think any one of them has or is interested in PMs. Most of them, like me, have at least half of their wealth in real estates. I think this group will lose half of their net worth and incomes (in buying power, not denomination) after the reset but they will do fine as long as their properties are not in retail commercial in the poorer parts of the town. The cost of traveling abroad will double or triple but they probably wouldn't even notice the difference as long as they stay home. The ones who invested heavily in the service industry may have the hardest time after the reset since we will likely switch back to manufacturing from servicing. That would be the best case scenario.
The worse case is hyperinflation like Weimar. I infer nobody can live through that totoally unscathe. I'm hoping that the Barbarous Relic would serve its purpose in that unlikely but more than possible scenario.

Unknown said...

@ Reality Show,
"Their two tiers are the UST's official gold price, which keeps gold monetised and values the Dollar, but is not really a market, and the spot price."
Yes, it is a two tiers systems. In one market, monetary gold doesn't move and never will at UST's official gold price of $35/oz. Monetary gold is allowed to move into the other (open) market only when it's absolutely necessary to suppress the spot price to keep the shrimps disinterested.

Mr orange said...

Blake I'm firmly in the neutral housing camp pretty steady,,,,cases can be made for different specific areas but in general prices hold steady, you have population dynamic of baby boomers our largest group is now getting old, less coming up, fed has a put under it basically along with everything else, stock market is about 15 percent above trend line so maybe correction there, nasdaq is just now at this very moment at a dreaded double top 15 year double top so we will see how that straightens out here but no collapse from this point in any of it like 2008. We are starting to see wage inflation really for the first time in seven years walmart and tj max for example I find it very interesting to say the least so getting back to housing,,,fed has a put to keep banks balance sheets above water and wages will be increasing here so people can catch up but not much house price increases in future,,,,,,,

Judytoy my understanding and someone here may correct me here but essentially weimers debt was in gold,,,,,our debt is in treasury bills so no weimer for us now there is a ton of other dynamics in play here so hyperinflation will play out in different ways as far as goods etc,,,,,,

Mr orange said...

Sorry got cutoff, I posted this earlier if u watch bloomberg kyle bass gold housing japan on youtube he explains housing gets a bid I'm firmly in that camp

The thing fofoa is explaining about the governments appetite bidding up goods is confusing to me so I' am lost on how things will play out exactly in our hyperinflation with my business because I depend on things from overseas, I'm thinking there will be a gradual less and less goods,,,,,,I know no one wants a weimer or complete collapse the powers want to keep control no matter what country your in, and they know eventually they go thru all the same stuff we do on a monetary level,,,,,,,

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

@ mr. Orange,
I may be wrong but the Weimar, US or Zimbabwe currencies are all ultimately back by their respective GDP. In theory, they don't need golds, sea shells or treasury bills to back their currencies as long as they can maintain a healthy and vibrant economy.
If their GDPs were not able to meet absolute basic necessity due to debts, famine or war, they would need to tap into the reserve which is the treasury bills in the US. However, one must takes into consideration that our GDP not only back the currency, it also back the U.S. Treasury bills.
I imagine our debts to the Chinese and Japanese will vaporize after the reset. However, we would need to make a quick transition to manufacturing since our paper wealth would deminish with our debts. I doubt neither the fed nor the U.S. Treasury has much foreign currencies in reserve (it probably doesn't matter since all currencies would reset with the dollar) and as long as the official 8000 tons of gold in the vault remains questionable. Foreign goods will no longer be found on the shelf.
If we could work together and adjust accordingly, we would have severe inflation but we would be okay after a few years. If we started pointing fingers at each other and go Ferguson, we would be Argentina and hyperinflation ensued.

Mr orange said...

I'll give you guys my free market flow shortage gauge,,,,,my hobby is collecting baseball football hockey cards and other rare things so I buy some on ebay, my hobby is to distract me from all the madness in markets and the everyday chaos of the kids,,,,,,,,so from 2009 to 2011 there was about always between 700 to 900 listings of 1/10 gold coin for sale on ebay as I too was always worried about shortage etc,,,,,since the top at Aprox 1900 oz US dollars there has been 2500 listings on average at anytime, I know maybe some more dealers but not really, so no shortage of gold on ebay,,,,,,now another interesting dynamic from 2009 to 2011 1 in every 35 buys was gold 33 silver and 1 another metal.....now 4 in every 25 sales is gold,,,,,I using apmex american precious metals exchanges feedback as my guide to what the population is actually buying,,,,,,,so clearly from 2009 to 2011 mostly everyone was buying silver as a hedge against crisis,,,,my poll is unscientific but metals are flowing on ebay so I don't anticipate shortages before freegold

Mr orange said...

Judy,
I agree I just see shortages I just don't think we can just snap our fingers and have manufacturing back it would take time,,,,so I'm worried because it sounds like in Argentina all sellers got screwed for about 3 years after their reset,,,,I don't know all dynamics obviously our govt is too big and a lot of our jobs that have been booming are connected to healthcare education and defense that accts for 90 percent of our industry and it's all govt,,,,,I see the high end malls are doing well anything else is hurting,,,I'm just worried about it that's all I don't understand exact dynamics of the whole pie once this all happens. To borrow a line from peter schiff we have to produce more and consume less, I'm just on wrong side of coin I'm selling to mostly Americans and I get my stuff ultimately mostly from overseas,,,,,,so I'm worried about 3 years immediately after free gold,,,,,steve jobs said before he died that his manufacturing would never come home

Anand Srivastava said...

I would think that real estate will survive reasonably well. It will go down in value as it should be overvalued at the moment due to massive printing. There is a unique opportunity for freegolders living in zones that will undergo hyperinflation. At one point there will be a revaluation while currency is hyperdeflating. It will be a good time to convert modest savings in gold at the present time into large holdings of real estate.

Unknown said...

@ anand,
Location, location and location, that is what real estate is all about. Most of my income generating real estates are in NYC which have prospered because of the booming financial industry. I don't foresee financial will do well after the reset. Therefore, I believe the value of my properties will go down like most properties in Detroit after the bust.
I'm hoping that the existing ports, subway and other infrastructures in NYC will make it attractive for manufacturers to fill the vacancies and keep the people from leaving.

Xavier said...

@FSL
It is fundamental to see gold as wealth and all paper as a derivative, gold is final payment. Paper is a promise to pay wealth, but there isn't the wealth to match the number of promises. Some kinds of money have reasonably stable exchange value, and nearly universal acceptance (at least within one country) that we get used to thinking of them as wealth; and for the purposes of personal wealth accounting, that is a good principle. For the purpose of understanding the world's economy, however, it is important to distinguish wealth from the money that merely represents it. The crucial point here is that as the Dollar nears the end of its timeline, the value of CB dollar reserves will shrink on every balance sheet and the value of their gold will rise, this is enough to bust the bullion banks. I don't believe the euro architecture requires a price band to be set, that is why they mark their gold to market, gold is free to find its price. Do you reject the idea that the bullion banks will never have a run on their gold if the dollar is no longer the reserve?

As to the issue of deflation, one must note that debt is treated as savings, if deflation were to occur it would destroy the savings (debt), the central banks will never let this come to pass. If deflation occurs, Savers (debt) will be made whole with more printed money. This is the distinction between saving and speculation, gold should retain its value in purchasing power for the saver, it is wealth, a final payment. It should never beat the speculators yield on an investment, and I would not expect it to, the yield is reward for taking risk. I do not think all will hold their wealth in gold, those who create a surplus will seek to save and invest, but their investments will hold counterparty risk and they will be rewarded in yield for that risk. The distinction is they will save also in good money, and be rewarded in maintenance of purchasing power for doing so as it appreciates.
For the giant who wishes to save and invest, their allocation will reflect their preference, the conservative saver might be heavy in gold whilst the gambler invests seeking a yield.

Woland said...

"The Reluctant King of the Hidden Internet" Henry Farrell
aon.co/magazine/technology/on-the-high-seas-of-the hidden-internet/
h/t Bron S, via Izabella Kaminszka

Indenture said...

Woland's link:

The Reluctant King of the Hidden Internet

KnallGold said...

Yield whores??? Ok, now I understand the negative yields...

Anand Srivastava said...

Judie Toy:

I was talking in generic terms. Obviously location matters.

Unknown said...

I thought this was interesting.
ASX:CTO jumped 120% today as funding for developing a mine was arranged. Funding is provided by KIG who becomes a JV partner. The term that I thought stood out was this;
"Offtake - All gold produced is sold to KIG at market prices"

http://imagesignal.commsec.com.au/docserver/01604376.pdf?fileid=01604376&datedir=20150302&edt=MjAxNS0wMy0wMisyMzowMTo0NSsxMjArMCtjb21zZWMrcmVkaXJlY3QrL2ltYWdlc2lnbmFsL2Vycm9ycGFnZXMvUERGVGltZW91dC5odG1sKy9pbWFnZXNpZ25hbC9lcnJvcnBhZ2VzL3BkZmRlbGF5ZWQuanNw

Muad'Grumps said...

I noticed Citigold as well. 77 million shares or about 2 million AUD bid it up last night. From the announcement:

In the Mineral Resources and Ore Reserves Report 2012 (Technical Report) the EconomicAnalysis confirms that with a $50 million cash investment into the project the discounted cash flows for the first 15 years of the project derive a net present value of $742 million using a discount rate of 20%. This clearly indicates the substantial value of the project that is now on the path towards being realised. All of the underlying assumptions are available in the Technical Report, including the use of an Australian dollar gold price circa $1500 (very similar to the current gold price in Australian dollars).

http://www.kingsford-groups.com/htxview.php?doc=htx/en/news You think these guys are going to benefit from the new Asian economy led by the NDB and AIIB?


Also I stumbled across this yesterday but I see it's making it's way thru the gold sphere.
http://www.mineweb.com/news/gold/could-china-actually-have-30000-tonnes-of-gold-in-reserves/

Hunt notes the following summary points, among others in his ‘Thought for the day’:
China will take strong action in the second half of this year to restructure its financial system, its heavy industry, manufacturing and real estate sectors. It will be what we call a period of ‘’controlled crisis’’ that will not only shock most foreigners but will have global reverberations.
China does not want its currency to be the global reserve currency but to be an accepted unit for the settlement of trade and for central banks and others to retain in their portfolios.
China does not trust Washington’s ability to manage the sole reserve currency unit in the interests of the rest of the world, only in its own interests. Historically, America has used the inflation route to reduce its debts to the rest of the world. In contrast, China is likely to link the Yuan to gold within three years. Before then government must have its economy seen to have been restructured and stable even though the process will be painful.

Phat Repat said...

"China is likely to link the Yuan to gold..."

Next time lead with that so I can stop reading earlier. ;-)

Jeff said...

A question readers should know the answer to:

'"What happens to a barrel of crude oil if no one wants it and no one can even store it?" asked Walter Zimmerman, chief technical strategist for United-ICAP. "How do you even value that crude?"'

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-02/crude-carnage-continues-amid-saudi-production-storage-limits

Michael dV said...

Jeff
It seems impossible that oil could go bid less but I suppose it could happen for a short period of time. I would guess that there is a price below which sellers would just withhold product but there may be some really desperate sellers who would sell at any price.
There is also a possibility that crude in the pipeline MUST move. That might motivate sellers to accept low prices even as they stop forward production.
I can't imagine there are not some old tankers that could be found and put into service if prices went low enough.
Peak oil at the same time as a period of overproduction relative to consumption...what a messy paradox.

Jeff said...

MdV,

I think the dollar will go bidless before oil.

ANOTHER: Oil in the ground walks the quiet path and speaks with the modest voice. The power of this wealth brings not the need for confrontation, as all know this commodity could become a "currency" in and of itself, if needed.

The troubles we find today are troubles of a "paper currency nature" that brings to the forefront the need for low priced oil. Yes, you may extrapolate the order of confluence in this way; "paper currency created thru the creation of debt" then "always the continuation of more debt to expand business and commerce" then " the limits are reached for world trade to repay this paper debt" then "a further creation of debt for the creation of paper money with purpose only to save banks and governments" then "the need for raw commodities (oil and others) to be priced unfairly low for the continuation of business and debt payment"! Today, if oil was priced fairly, in real terms, the dollar/IMF currency structure would not stand.

The basic engine for Western commerce is run with energy, energy from oil! The "wealth of nations" is based on the continuation of business, for it is this commerce that makes valuable the paper assets (currencies included) held by citizens. This is a common knowledge, little held by western thinkers. They say that it be the paper assets that give value for the purpose of trade. I say, a simple person does stand at the river edge and know from where the waters flow! If the current paper economy does destroy "the business of oil" then, this currency system will destroy itself. It does so today, as a low gold price in dollar terms does balance the value of reserves in ground, but the promise of good "future oil flow" is questioned if paid for in more debt. For as before, when this currency was expanded with "business as backing", today, the lack of alternatives forces the creation of dollars in the gamblers house! I will not hold the notes of a fool for the future of my country. I see our future with a currency from the "House of Europe" that will be used in payment for this future search for oil! You see, this "business of oil" it does continue, yes? Thank You
Another

And Y said...

Interestingly, in an interview with the Middle East Economic Survey, Saudi Arabia's oil minister, Ali al-Naimi, said OPEC's output would still not be cut. "Whether it goes down to $20, $40, $50, $60, it is irrelevant," he declared.

From How Low Can Oil Prices Go?.

Yes, irrelevant, as long as gold flows.

Unknown said...

But they are getting a much smaller quantity gold unless gold price is also smashed.
No this move by SA is independent of gold. They are relying on cash reserves to starve other players. When SA is top dog again (crossing fingers this wont happen) things will change again.

Tommy2Tone said...

"But they are getting a much smaller quantity gold unless gold price is also smashed. "

It's the flow, stupid.

"It is that the price of gold does not matter to the producer/saver, only the flow of gold matters. I'll say it again. The producer/saver doesn't care about the price of gold, only the flow. To the producer/saver the price doesn't matter because it is a straight currency exchange, like exchanging dollars for euros."

Unknown said...

That doesn't seem to make sense. If SA can covert a barrel of oil to 0.1oz or 0.02oz gold makes a difference to SA. The arrangment, going back to 70's was that SA would keep oil price down and in return they would be able to convert some profits to gold. Now with oil price way down but with gold not being equally cut in USD price how can it be said that SA would care? Gold can flow but at a smaller quantity. They cannot just cut their income and maintain level of purchasing. That suggest 1) they need to make cutbacks elsewhere or 2) they live of reserves.
(I agree savers don't necessarily care about the price if they are not selling. And producers sell at market prices. But that is not what was discussed. But even in the producer case of course price matters. If price is high same quantity makes more profit, if it is less, they can go bankrupt even if there is large production (costs higher than revenue) .

M said...

@ Judie toy

"If we could work together and adjust accordingly, we would have severe inflation "

Inflation and money velocity cause the same thing. You are thinking like a deflationist here. Severe inflation means money velocity will kick up.

If the USD falls hard in the forex market and prices for things double, then velocity doubles and causes a shortage of base money, do you think Janet Yellen will halt the presses when the banking system is caught way short for base money ?

Canadarob said...

Things have gotten a little quiet here so let's kick up another discussion.
From what I understand, from fofoa is that part of the loop the us dollar is in is, as it rises it gets hoarded more which causes it to rise more. QE is than started to force it down and back into liquidity. Correct?
The USD index has been cruising at a pretty steep incline recently.
Two questions.
1. Is there a point (100,120?) Where they need to start printing again? Does anyone have an idea what number would be sort of a wall that would induce printing?
2. If they don't start QE but are doing a similar program, how can we know? In other words, is it possible that they have QE programs that are hidden?

Jeff said...

Rob,

Pity the poor dollar managers, always trying to balance an ever-increasing dollar pool sloshing back and forth.

FOA: It has to unwind through a reserve transition. Default will only come through inflation after the fact. That is the only way a modern reserve currency can revert back to a regular currency without a complete washout of the global financial structure. Call it what we want, inflation, deflation, default or devaluation, the loss of the ability to expand a reserve fiat further becomes an end time banking crisis that requires the next system to take over. If no replacement is available we all go down.

The problem of when is a currency no longer "reserve quality" is based more on it's expansion qualities than it's comparable exchange strengths. The failing point is reached when the local economic system can no longer supply products or new productive capabilities in sufficient quantity to expand the internal debt base for real use reasons. The money then just expands because it's "Legal Tender" and anyone can get some. This shuts off the real money making engine and forces currency creation only for the sake of it's ability to buy and finance things. Not it's ability to hold a steady value. In other words, more dollars are loaned into existence just because they still have some value left in them to trade for things and that value is based on debt pay back strength. Not because their creation is matched by a productive increase somewhere in the society.

Obviously the US has been on this path for some time. Today, the only reason the dollar still has value is because of this pay back crisis. Dollar denominated debt is so far out of line with it's perceived real economic base, the rush is on to move real world infrastructure debt out of dollars and leave the rest of these dollar claime sloshing around as trading vehicles. And boy that's a lot of slosh to move around.(smile)...

Again, dollar strength today is a sign of a bad situation and will only get worse. It will gut the productive infrastructure of this country even as the fed super inflates the system to fight that strength.

john said...

First, China steped into soak up the bonds, then fracking stepped in to soak up SA dominance, now it's going to be a long wait, who's next ? India?

Indenture said...

john: Why is it going to be a long wait?

One Bad Adder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
One Bad Adder said...

@Canadarob: - $US strength is an "effect" - for cause? ...Jeff / FoA (above) are getting pretty close. We're only now (finally) seeing a manifestation of critical $US Timeline issues identified by FoA etal some 15 Yr's ago.
I'd suggested at 90 - 95 DX / >$1100 PoG we'll start to see max-pain ...and (given the current circumstances) don't think the systemic wheels can stay attached much over 100.
$IRX is the key Rob - FWIW.

KnallGold said...

We have been told here about a substantial devaluation of the euro during the transition, so no surprise here...

And this day looks like a good day for us Waiting For The Sun (The Doors cover) :-)

Canadarob said...

One bad adder,
Why is $irx the key and what am I looking for. I notice you post a lot of chart info unfortunately it is not my specialty making it tough to understand.

One Bad Adder said...

@Canadarob: - Currently the mildly positive yielding $US denominated short-treasuries are counterbalancing the sub-zero alt-currency Bills (German, Swiss, Japanese etc).
The critical point (IMHO) will be when US T-Bills go negative.
Interest rates (Credit AND Debt) define risk. Gold OWNS the no-risk (Zero IR) arena ...and consequently, when UST's go into negativity, marketeers the world over will have a long-overdue Golden epiphany.
ITMT, Don't look to $PoG for any indication of same though Rob.

Stan Eversham said...

Given that most, if not all, of major central banks are controlled by Keynesians, (and we know how they think) is it really conceivable that they will allow Gold to be part of the monetary system as per FOFOA theory? While it is fun to kick around the ideas enunciated by FOFOA, remember the old saying “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”

KnallGold said...

Aside that "we are all Keynesians now" and assuming that central bankers are also Keynesians (controlled), what's wrong with FreeGold then? It is not a new Gold standard which they fret, it's a hybrid having something for both sides.

Of course, if it doesn't manifest during the circumstances described, the theory has to be adapted. Or, if the circumstances anticipated manifest quite differently, alternative theories have to be considered again.

Occasionally, we have these doubts also, mind you, but then we start to think it through again and watch the events: it always leads to a renewed confirmation.

What appears not to fit is the time axis. But this is like a blind parachuting, he falls, but he doesn't see the ground so he cannot tell when he "arrives".

If you exchange "ground" with "future" in this analogy, you'll "see" ;-) and you'll understand the "blind" aka "present-man" 's decision to pull the rip cord - now does he have a good or bad timing???

MatrixSentry said...

When previous global monetary systems have become unsustainable and commenced collapsing, have the "Keynesians" been able to prevent the transition to a new system? History shows that the system will be adapted to facilitate the continuance of global trade.

So the question should be whether gold can be useful in the new IMFS. Can gold be part of a antidote to the fatal malady that plagues the $IMFS? If the answer is yes, and more importantly yes to the exclusion of all other can kicking exercises designed to preserve the $IMFS, then how and why would the "Keynesians" exclude it?

If the "Keynesians" could and would prevent gold from ever being a part of new global monetary system, why do they hold so much of it? Seems to me those CBs would have long since rid themselves of something that serves no purpose.

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