Wednesday, April 10, 2013

Open (Window?) Forum



Hello, and sorry I've been gone so long. I've been taking a little time away from the blog to get a few things done around the house. You know, Spring cleaning and stuff like that! ;D

So let's see what's been going on… ah, yes… Cyprus! I consumed a lot of popcorn watching that blockbuster! It sure seems like something big changed in the Eurozone; almost like they're now willing to let the chips fall where they may. And, of course, we had another Snapshot day and MTM Party. Here's the result, and here are the last five snapshots to put it into context:

3/29/13 - €1,251.464
1/4/13 - €1,261.179
9/28/12 - €1,377.417
6/29/12 - €1,246.624
3/30/12 - €1,243.449

That's right, we're back where we were a year ago! In fact, we're currently at €1,213, well below a year ago, and we even dipped below €1,200 for a few hours on MTM Party day.

Meanwhile, GLD has been spilling its guts. Down to just 1,200.37 tonnes from its peak of 1,353.35 exactly four months ago. I wonder where those 153 tonnes went. Remember: for every seller there is also a buyer. And for every sale, there must be a purchase. So when you hear someone saying "sale", think "purchase", and if they're trying to say that the sale of physical from GLD explains (or is explained by) the price decline, just remember that there's much more paper being sold than physical. ;D

This is an open forum, but I'm going to give you a couple of recent discussions that I had in private to set the mood. These are topics that came up in the last thread of comments, which is why I decided to publish them here. The first one is my personal view of GLD, and the second one is about the GOR or the gold:oil ratio.

Do you remember this lead-in from FOA on 10/10/01?

"(pulling a cloth from my pocket and cleaning my glasses while talking)

On most parts of this Trail, I could walk with my eyes closed; while in other areas I would need six maps and two GPSs units just to know north! Right now, I can tell ya what's most likely out there, but in those strange areas; not really sure?"


That's kind of what this post is. While the two topics below will seem like they could each be their own post, there's a good reason why I dumped them here in an open forum. My blog is a tribute to the thoughts of Another and FOA, and these discussions fall a little bit outside the scope of the archives they left behind. So they are a little more speculative, more like my view, as opposed to theirs, but still my view as it has developed with a constant focus on their view. So take it for what it is, and that means with a grain of salt. ;D

In this first discussion, I attempted to explain my view of GLD to a friend. I am well aware of the consensus view or standard explanation of how GLD operates. I am also aware that it is considered indisputable and even fact by most industry professionals. The consensus view is basically that GLD buys and sells bullion based on an arb that the Authorized Participants (APs) take advantage of. If sellers beat GLD so hard that it trades below spot (i.e., below its Net Asset Value or NAV), the APs will buy GLD shares and redeem them for metal which they then sell and make the spread between the GLD price and the spot price. The same works in reverse when GLD trades above spot and the AP buys physical, puts it in GLD and sells the shares earning the spread. This is how GLD "tracks" the metal over time, or at least that's the consensus view assumed by most everyone to be indisputable fact.

My view is a little different. It is not a conspiracy theory, simply a different view. If you can entertain it, even without accepting it, then perhaps you can judge for yourself which of the two views does a better job explaining what we see happening in reality, what actually is indisputable fact.

GLD – The Coat-Check Room View

Hello Michael,

Re: "I currently have a gap in my understanding of how the BBs would acquire the shares of GLD necessary to drain the fund's inventory when they are in need of physical gold."

It looks like the pukes all fit comfortably inside their day's trading volume. So if the BBs need some physical fast, they should be able to just buy the shares as long as they are OK paying above the NAV to get it. But perhaps they don't even need to. Here's a paragraph taken right out of the GLD prospectus. Read it carefully and then tell me what you think. Seems to me that any AP can withdraw any amount of physical up to that which its own clients are holding in GLD shares:

BOOK ENTRY FORM

Individual certificates will not be issued for the Shares. Instead, global certificates are deposited by the Trustee with DTC and registered in the name of Cede & Co., as nominee for DTC. The global certificates evidence all of the Shares outstanding at any time. Under the Trust Indenture, Shareholders are limited to: (1) DTC Participants; (2) those who maintain, either directly or indirectly, a custodial relationship with a DTC Participant, or Indirect Participants; and (3) those banks, brokers, dealers, trust companies and others who hold interests in the Shares through DTC Participants or Indirect Participants. The Shares are only transferable through the book-entry system of DTC. Shareholders who are not DTC Participants may transfer their Shares through DTC by instructing the DTC Participant holding their Shares (or by instructing the Indirect Participant or other entity through which their Shares are held) to transfer the Shares. Transfers are made in accordance with standard securities industry practice.

As far as the Trustee is concerned, all of the GLD shares are registered "in street name" which means "Cede & Co.", the nominee for DTC. And as far as DTC is concerned, the shares are shuffled around electronically on the DTC "books" between the banks and broker dealers, many of whom are also Authorized Participants in GLD.

Now please just think about this for a while. And then think about it in light of what Randy Strauss wrote, which I quoted in Who is Draining GLD:

"These are NOT actively managed funds whose gold inventory is tweaked to ebb and flow based on public sentiment in the shares. Instead, the ETFs are more like a central coat-check room in which the various bullion banks have temporarily hung out their own inventories (i.e., meaning, their unallocated stock which they hold loosely on behalf of their depositors). And whereas the claim tickets (ETF shares) may freely circulate on the open market, any significant outflow of physical inventory is simply and primarily indicative of a bullion bank reclaiming the original inventory based on a heightened need or desire for physical metal in a tightening market — for example, to meet the demands emerging from Asia."

That post was a popular one, but even to this day, more than two years later, I don't think that 99% of the people that read it understood my main point. It requires a slight shift in perspective, and I think that with this shift, a lot of what we've been discussing recently will come into focus. And after you've given this "coat check room perspective" some thought, consider these emails from Ari which I used in The View: A Classic Bank Run. I think they will help tie it all together in a comprehensive view of the BBs and their unique position at the center of the universe for all things forex, XAU, "gold", Gold and even GLD:

"A bank can be "populated" with unallocated gold accounts in two primary ways. It can either be done as a physical deposit by a silly person or by another corporate entity, or else it can occur completely in the non-physical realm as a cashflow event whereby a customer with a surplus account of forex calls up and requests to exchange some or all of it for gold units, whereupon the bank acts as a broker/dealer to cover the deal – occurring and residing on the books as an accounting event among counterparties rather than as any sort of physical purchase. No bread, no breadcrumbs, only a paper trail and metal of the mind. This is how the LBMA can report its mere subset of clearing volumes averaging in the neighborhood of 18 million ounces PER DAY. Just a whole lot of "unallocated gold" digital activity as an ongoing counterparty-squaring exercise.

It is here that I offer the eurodollar market as a very good parallel to the bullion sector of banking. While not a perfect parallel (for all the most obvious reasons) it provides a remarkably good bridge to help anyone who has a good footing on modern commercial banking to successfully cross over to that seemingly unfamiliar territory of "bullion banking". In fact, they need do little more to successfully cross over than to simply think of bullion banking ops as though they were eurodollar banking ops – the difference being that whereas eurodollar banking makes extra-sovereign use of the U.S. dollar as its accounting basis in international banking activities (thus outflanking New York's purview and restrictions), bullion banking engages in similar "extra-sovereign" use of gold ounces within its operational/accounting basis (thus outflanking and overrunning Mother Earth's domain and tangible restrictions).

And just to be sure we're on the same page, the eurodollar is not to be in any way confused with the euro, but rather stands to mean the artificial supply of "U.S. dollars" that "exist" as accounting units in off-shore banks, having originally been authentic deposits of New York's finest export, but which were then subsequently lent on – fractionalized and derivatized into a vast amorphous mass as only a network of cooperating banks can do best."

I'd like to draw your attention to two phrases Ari used in those emails I posted:

"…an ongoing counterparty-squaring exercise…

…a vast amorphous mass as only a network of cooperating banks can do best."


I think it's best to think of the banks' primary job as being that of a middleman, bringing buyers and sellers together, more so than to think of the banks as the direct counterparty their customers. And like banks do maturity transformation in traditional banking, these banks can also do "other kinds of" transformation in their "ongoing counterparty-squaring exercise" which, if you could see it all laid bare, would look like "a vast amorphous mass as only a network of cooperating banks can do best."

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The APs are market makers. Your "ownership" of a GLD share is recorded in their books (or your broker's books and then your broker is listed in the AP's book). It is your credit and their liability. As far as the GLD Trust is concerned, the APs own the baskets which means they own the gold. Kind of like saying a bank "owns" its reserves. It's not a scam. It's not a conspiracy. It's just the way it is. If you can adjust your view, this will all start to make sense. I'll send you more as time allows, because this is one of those things that has been bugging me for two years… that no one seemed to understand the implication of that post.

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Re: "They do need the shares to redeem the basket right?"

They already have the shares. The shares are already in their name at the DTC. So they can put in physical or take it out as needed. It is a choice they make. And it is not a choice based on the gold price, the discount or premium to the NAV or the popularity of GLD as is the common explanation for pukes and additions.

"These are NOT actively managed funds whose gold inventory is tweaked to ebb and flow based on public sentiment in the shares. Instead, the ETFs are more like a central coat-check room in which the various bullion banks have temporarily hung out their own inventories…"

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Underneath this "amorphous mass" the BBs have a second job—managing the flow of physical gold. This flow has incoming and outgoing. Incoming includes supply from refineries, mints, mines and scrap supply as well as any physical gold deposits. Physical deposits are what Ari referred to as "a physical deposit by a silly person or by another corporate entity." ANOTHER put it like this: "In the beginning the CBs didn't sell their own gold. They ( thru third party ) found someone else who had bullion." So physical deposits are essentially someone giving up their allocated in exchange for unallocated (tradable) credits. That's the incoming.

The outgoing is the allocation and shipments of real physical gold. Here's how I clumsily explained it two years ago in The View: A Classic Bank Run:

"So, imagine two "gold windows" at the Bullion Bank. One is marked "incoming" and the other is marked "outgoing." At the "incoming window" you have "the West" lined up to turn in their physical gold for exchange-tradable paper liabilities. And right around the corner you have "oil" lined up taking delivery or allocation. It is this flow that allowed the oil for gold deal to go on as long as it did. But then something happened.

The thing was, the incoming flow from the mines was not exploding as hoped and expected. And the overall flow from the mines combined with the Western gold bugs puking up their private stashes was nothing compared to the sheer volume of the "oil" wealth in line around the corner. At the current price there was literally unlimited demand at the "outgoing" window and a limited supply coming in. This is what Another meant when he wrote that the oil states had already (almost inadvertently) cornered the gold market by 1997."

The BB's "second job" of managing this flow is not unlike a regular commercial bank in 1933 managing its gold coin reserves. If the reserves get too low, it needs to find more. Normally it does this by borrowing them from its central bank. But in a general bank run, even the central bank doesn't have enough reserves, which is when the people get a "bank holiday". At least that was the case before 1934.

The idea of central banking grew out of the need to pool excess reserves to avoid the unnecessary hassle of having to shop around for reserves when they are needed. A central bank is a kind of a gentleman's club or trade union in which the member banks are actually the owners and users. And in this way, GLD is very much like the central bank of the BBs in a pre-1934 sort of environment.

Unlike the physical gold that I like to buy which has a subjective value, GLD shares have a decidedly objective value. That objective value is the NAV (net asset value) ÷ the number of shares outstanding as reported (and revised) by the Trustee. The NAV is simple. It is the dollar price of an ounce of paper gold times the number of ounces held in the Trust. So if I, as a bullion bank, remove some physical from the Trust, this reduces both the number of ounces in there and the number of shares outstanding as reported by the Trustee. The market price or value of a share doesn't change. But the real value of a share changes because I have some inside information that the shareholders don't have.

Do I need to report any new short sales of these shares? Nope. No one has short sold any shares. And yet I now know that there are more shared on my books than I have in reserve. So the price isn't too high, just the number of shares believed to be held by my clients is too high. And those "shares" are actually my liabilities of GLD shares to my clients. In other words, my GLD share liabilities to my clients now exceed my GLD share reserves.

What I have to do now is buy back those excess liabilities and, as a market maker supplying a bid and offer spread to my clients, I might just be able to accomplish my goal entirely in-house simply by accommodating more sales than buys over a few days. In the meantime, I can offset my price exposure by incorporating it into my hedging operations for my much larger OTC (FOREX/XAU) side of the business.

Here's how I clumsily explained the objective value of GLD two years ago in Who is Draining GLD:

"GLD is designed to track the price of gold. It is not actively managed to track the price of gold. Instead, it does so through opportunities that arise whenever it doesn't. Imagine GLD as a big lump of gold just sitting there in Town Square. The price of gold is "discovered" elsewhere and shares in this big lump just trade based on that elsewhere-discovered price. If the share price is too high, then an opportunity exists to sell your share and buy "gold" elsewhere. Likewise, if it is too low, there is an opportunity to sell elsewhere and buy into this lump on display."

I find it useful to think of the flow of physical gold (i.e., the physical portion of the overall gold market) as separate from the paper gold market. Not that it's a separate market with a separate price—parity must be maintained—but that it's simply a flow that must be maintained and it is not an integral part of the price discovery mechanism that we call the overall gold market.

The reason price parity must be maintained is because without it the paper gold market won't function for its majority users, the "FDIC sticker" crowd. Here's where that reference comes from:

FOA: "What doesn't seem to be obvious is the "why for" the paper market grew so large. It grew to dominate because worldwide dollar expansion reached its "non-hedged" peak. In other words, the dollar's timeline was ending as its ability to produce non price inflationary economic gains came into sight.

In order to push dollar holdings further, international players needed and purchased "paper financial hedges" to balance their risk. Within their total mix of derivative hedges were found "paper gold price hedges"; modern gold derivatives. The important thing to remember is that these positions are not and never will be used to demand physical gold. They are held to buffer financial and currency risk associated with holding any form of dollar based asset. To work these items don't need to really perform "dollar price movements" in the holders favor as much as they are present in the portfolio to act as insurance stickers.

In that truth, these paper gold positions act like FDIC insurance at our banks. It can and will manage only a small determined portion of bank runs,,,,, not a full scale failure of the banking system. In a real full banking failure we would all get, perhaps, 80% of our covered $100,000 and 10% of the rest.

The same is true for these gold position's performance; real gold delivery along with true price performance, matching real bullion trading, would be only for the very few. For that matter, an actual functioning paper gold marketplace would be for the very few, too! But, in the same way a bank account owner understands the credibility of FDIC insurance when times are good; the international dollar asset owner will not grasp that modern paper gold hedges cannot be allowed to work until after a real serious price inflationary run begins."

The reason I view the physical portion of the gold market as something separate from the overall gold market is because demand for physical exerts the opposite effect on the overall market as demand for paper gold. Demand for paper gold supports the cohesion of the overall gold market and demand for physical stresses it, IMO.

What I picture in my mind is like a subterranean stream. This stream is the flow of physical gold from the mines and refiners (and all other physical gold inputs combined) into the BBs and then on to the East, "oil" and the old world Giants. With the BBs in the middle, there is always some flow coming in and some going out. And during whatever time the gold spends (or "eddies") in the possession of the BBs on its journey, it could be considered the BB's reserves (the slack in their rope). The rest of us trading paper gold look at that swirling "eddy" of BB gold and believe we have a valid bid ticket for our portion of it, even though 20 others believe the same thing. We think, "all I have to do is bid a little higher and take it! Insane, but that's what is going on! Somehow, the BIS and the major private gold holders know the total claims, as does Another. The Euro group is going to force those claims into real bids instead of just claims!" (FOA)

Over time (say, through the 80s and 90s), the size of the BBs' eddy of gold will stabilize, and then it will appear to just sit there. Everyone can look at it and say, "wow, look at all the gold those BBs have!" In fact, the very same pieces (bars) may lie very still in the same place for years and decades even, creating the illusion that they are no longer part of the subterranean flow. Once stabilized, the incoming gold is simply matched up with the outgoing and the eddy appears almost separate from the stream. But it is not.

Now picture this eddy bubbling up to a surface pool, visible to all. From the paper gold surface it appears to be a pool of still water (a hoard of physical gold lying still), but what is unseen is that the pool is actually connected to a subterranean stream deep below the surface. From time to time the level of the pool rises and falls, revealing that there's something going on under the surface, though few understand what is actually happening down there.

To most eyes, this is simply a large hoard of gold just sitting there. And there is a time value to such a hoard. Gold bars don't generate offspring, but dollars do. Enter the "coat check room idea" c.2004.

That gold "hoard" wasn't "sold to the public" as it wasn't actually owned by the BBs in the first place. It was simply their reserves, the slack in the flow, that portion of the flow of physical from one owner to its next owner that is in the temporary possession of the BBs at any given time. If enough of the global flow passes through the BBs, and if that flow is big enough, and if the portion in their possession can be stabilized, then it can appear to lie still and be "owned" by GLD investors even as it is really only an illusion of the management of the slack in the flow. This is the "coat check room" view.

I think the utility of a view or a perspective is in how it explains or clarifies what we see, and how it helps us understand events as they unfold. It is like a lens that we can look through, and it is possible to have multiple lenses in order to check the focus and field of view of one versus the other. Yet most people simply pick one lens, usually one that was handed to them or the one that everyone else seems to be using, and stick with it and it alone. It's like buying an SLR camera with an interchangeable lens and only ever using the lens that came in the box, never trying a wide angle or a really long lens.

FOA: "I (we) expect none of you to consider anything said here as credible. Everything is given as I understand it. If you came with a notion that I am someone who sees the future, grab the children and run far away. For these Thoughts, and my ongoing commentary, are meant to impact exactly as the "gentleman" said they would. People hear them, and whether believed or not, the words leave a mark. A mental mark on the trail, if you will. And later, after the world turns, our little "stacks of rocks" will be easier to understand next time you are passing this way. In fact, your ability to find your own way will forever be enhanced for having seen this path in a different light."

I just love that quote because it explains this concept of the lens in a way that disarms the critics. It's like, "here's a lens, stick it in your bag, and then maybe someday when you can't make sense of what you are seeing you'll try it on again and everything will suddenly come into focus." He's not saying, "here's the right lens for all situations, so you might as well throw away yours and superglue this one onto your camera." But like I said, it's tough to get some people to even understand that the lens that came with the camera is even removable/interchangeable.

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So back to our "coat check room" lens. When I put this lens on my camera, some funny-looking things come into focus. For example, if this view is correct, then one implication is that these pukes or redemptions could actually be happening in the exact opposite direction or chain of events than the standard explanation implies (e.g., physical delivery or allocation in excess of the incoming flow is promised to someone, then it is "removed" from the Trust through a technical basket redemption, then the BB's GLD share liabilities are bought back from the public). You see this. I can tell from your replies. And yet you are still looking for some arb mechanism or some link that maintains the parity between paper and physical. What I see is that none is necessary. What I see is all that is necessary to maintain parity on the surface is that the subterranean stream doesn't run dry.

Now there are two separate things here. There is what the view reveals, the picture I see, and then there are the unseen things going on behind the scene that I can only speculate about. For those things unseen, I try to come up with a plausible explanation that fits. That doesn't necessarily mean the unseen is happening exactly that way, but it lends its plausibility to the picture and to the lens. Above, I said that redemptions could be happening in the opposite direction. But that doesn't mean that ALL redemptions MUST be happening that way for the view to be correct. Some could be happening in the standard explanation direction as well. So with this view we could say that the lens that came with your camera is not necessarily lying to you, it just isn't showing you the whole picture [if the "coat check room" view is correct].

My blog is a tribute to A/FOA, so they are my primary lens for all things within their field of view. Unfortunately GLD didn't even exist when they were writing, so I can't claim that this "coat check room" lens is precisely the same lens. In fact, it would be a mistake to assume that I give the "coat check room" view equal weighting to the A/FOA view. I certainly try to avoid giving that impression. So if I seem a little hesitant to write more extensively about the GLD pukes, or if I seem to hold back a bit of my view when I do, that is why.

Ari is my closest proxy to A/FOA, and I know through email exchanges that he shares this view of GLD which gives me additional confidence in it. Plus, of all the competing GLD lenses (I can think of two or three others if I count the ones that say there's no actual physical in the ETF), I think this one fits best with the A/FOA view, and I think it explains what we are seeing better than the others.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to get to is that fitting this view with the A/FOA view and the big picture of what we see happening today leaves me with two primary mysteries. The first is why and how a trend developed such that Lance Lewis picked up on it and even gave it a name. And the second mystery is how and why the subterranean stream hasn't frozen up yet, seeing as it was essentially cornered by the East back in 1997.

The best, simplest and most fitting explanations that I have found for these two mysteries come from Ari and Another respectively. When I add them to the big picture, I have a full view (perspective) on what is happening today that suddenly makes more sense than anything else I've seen. Whether it is exactly what is happening today is uncertain, but I have yet to see another view that even comes close to explaining everything we see.

The first mystery is why and how the price of gold tends to rise for a period after large GLD redemptions. Lance labeled it as an indication of a "significant bottom" in gold. But I'm not sure that is correct. As you pointed out, we had some large redemptions (pukes) in August 2011 near the peak. So if it's not a bottom symptom, what is it? Could it be a stress symptom? Could it simply be the visible symptom that the outgoing flow of physical suddenly overwhelmed the incoming supply?

Now it generally happens after a drop in the price of gold, even though that's not what happened in 2011. So, with my view, that would indicate a lack of demand for paper gold. In Aug. 2011 there was plenty of demand for paper gold, and then it suddenly dropped off a cliff. One explanation for that could be that the tremendous build-up of XAU paper we saw in Q1 of 2011 on the survey had to be unwound when the demand suddenly fell. Perhaps too much paper was created in Q1, preventing the price from exploding during that quarter, then when paper demand suddenly fell, the price rise seen in July and August couldn't (and didn't need to be) maintained (levitated) artificially.

But, perhaps, when the price drops in the absence of a prior large paper expansion and a subsequent (almost parabolic) price run-up, a drop in XAU paper demand (like we saw in May 2012) is more threatening to the physical flow and some sort of official support is needed at that point to prevent it from spiraling out of control. I'm talking about the combination of overwhelming physical demand which stresses the cohesion of the overall gold market combined with low paper demand giving it no support. See my posts The Two-Legged Dog and Legs for more of my thoughts about "official support" for paper gold.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that the BBs can manage "too much paper demand" on their own. They can normally keep the price from rising too fast in the face of more buy orders than sell orders by simply expanding the paper supply and delta hedging their exposure in another part of the gold market or even in correlated markets. But I think they have less control when the bottom drops out of the demand for their paper (more sell orders and very few or no buy orders). When that happens, if "artificial support" is required (for whatever reason), I think it must come from an external source with a motivation other than profit from the trade, like a CB.

And this is where Ari's "Snapshot day" theory comes into play. If that view is correct, then why not on pukes too? Perhaps (and this is just a guess), ever since late 2008 there have been two main times when the CBs step in and buy up some paper XAU on the exchanges to fill in the lack of public demand: for Snapshot days (but only when needed) and for GLD Pukes (when needed). We could call this the "official support" explanation. And, if you can accept it as plausible, I think it explains the trend better, more simply and more completely than the other explanations.

Now back to that subterranean stream. Even with the pukes, there must be some explanation as to how and why it's still flowing. If the demand was as high as Another says it was in the late 90s, and now the mine supply is roughly the same while the mines are no longer hedging 10 years out and the CBs are no longer "primary suppliers" then where is all the gold coming from to keep it flowing? This is the second mystery, and I believe that Another gave us the answer. It may be just as hard to swallow as "official support", "coat check room" and "snapshot day" for mainstream analysts who can't afford to utilize these lens, but if you accept it as plausible then it becomes the final missing piece of the puzzle. And that answer is gold *IN SIZE* being traded at a huge premium to spot and a discount to the expected revaluation price.

When Another said that the flow of physical gold was cornered, the attribution of the corner went to the Giants, both Asian (Big Trader) and Middle Eastern oil (the Saudis). If you can just satisfy these two players then the flow from the mines must be enough, as evidenced by the fact that the LBMA continues functioning today.

Earlier I mentioned that I like to think of the banks as middlemen, pairing buyers with sellers (buyers and sellers who may never meet each other), rather than the banks being the direct counterparty to each of their clients. And this view extends to the BIS brokering these *IN SIZE* deals as far as I'm concerned.

So imagine that the CBs (aka the BIS), working through a "third party" who would be the broker, finds people with gold *IN SIZE* who would be willing to part with it at a HUGE premium to the LBMA price, and they match these sellers with the Giant buyers on the other side. Both sides are getting a deal in the present, but the Giant buy side would have to be given some assurance of an inevitable revaluation. That's the catch that I can see. There must be a credible promise given. The alternative is that the Eastern Giant simply buys paper gold, as much as he wants, but for a Giant that wants physical, there must be an assurance of some kind.

Or maybe they didn't need to find Giant sellers. Maybe the ~2,100 tonnes sold by the European CBs (including the BOE) since 1999 was enough at the right price. I don't know and I don't even pretend to know. But that only takes care of the supply side. The demand side, if Another was right about gold being cornered, must have received a credible promise of some kind. And this implies a plan which implies a target date for "assertively rolling forth the freegold paradigm" as Ari wrote in 2010.

When I put all of these pieces together, they fit together like a puzzle and present a clear picture even in the absence of A/FOA's guidance for the last 11 years. The fact that it all fits together while remaining logically consistent, as well as consistent with A/FOA and what we see happening, is the best evidence I have that it is the correct view. That, and also the fact that I have yet to see another lens that explains everything plausibly and comprehensively.

Everything fits, especially Ari's read of the central bank discussions around 2005 that seemed to be pointing to 2010 as the next window. And then pushing it back after the financial crisis in 2008. And assuming that no one wants to intentionally crash the current system, which I do assume, then they must be confident that the removal of support is all it will take. And they would know this because they would also know the level of support they had been providing. The more support necessary to prop something up, the more confidence you'd have that the mere removal of support would bring it down, enough confidence, perhaps, to make assurances that would be credible enough that they would actually work to prolong the system until your targeted window. Which brings us to today.

In addition to Ari's intuition and the January 4th snapshot day, we now also have a significant string of GLD redemptions without the timely (mysterious) levitation we've grown used to seeing in the past. As Victor has been pointing out, if this time was to follow the pattern of last time (March 2012), then we should have seen a $100 increase in the $PoG by March 4. That would have been at least $1,675, instead it went nowhere. I'm not making a prediction here, just pointing out the obvious signs.

Michael, you wrote:

"My gut feeling is that 60 tonnes/week is stressful but not at the limit, and that the limit would be more like 150 tonnes in a week, and that would about hold whether it occurs in a day or evenly distributed through 5 days. But another sign of stress would be if GLD gets drained at a slow but steady and continuous rate such that its inventory drops below the 1200-1300 range. Below 1070 would be my first level to watch, and below 700 would be trouble."

I view the pukes as a visible symptom of stress under the surface. I doubt that we can accurately judge the level of stress by what we see. I think we can only know that there is stress.

Unlike a well-made, good quality glass lens, a crystal ball provides only a highly distorted, bubbly-looking image. When I look through my crystal ball right now, what I see is that we won't get to see GLD whittled down even to those ranges you mentioned. As I said above, these redemptions could be happening in a chain of events that is the reverse of what you'd normally expect. First the gold is promised to someone, then it is taken out. And if this is the case, then I'd expect at some point it all gets "promised" at once and then the music stops, the "price" is frozen and the shareholders cashed out. From my old post, The Waterfall Effect:

"The Waterfall Effect describes the "overnight" collapse of a complex system, without even the forewarning of a run up (like gold in 1980 or the dot com run up). The following two graphs demonstrate this effect as seen in the collapse of Roman money in the 3rd century AD…"

"…Entropy is the amount of chaos, disorder or unknowable elements in any system. A system has low entropy when it is highly organized, ordered, controlled, contained, and all the elements are known. A system has high entropy when it is disordered, chaotic, out of control, and many elements cannot be known. Science teaches us that everything in the universe ultimately ends in absolute entropy (chaos) through the passage of time. In other words, ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

One thing that can affect the natural progression of entropy along the way is adding energy into a system. In certain closed systems with a high degree of order and control, adding energy can actually reduce entropy, increasing organization and order. This can be seen in the wonders of life and reproduction. In the closed system of a baby, we add energy (food) and watch it grow. Ultimately, though, entropy wins out and we return to dust.

But adding energy to a system usually has the opposite effect. It speeds up the journey to absolute entropy. This can be seen in an explosion. A bomb can take an entire building from low entropy to high entropy in a fraction of a second…"

The point of mentioning this concept from an old post is that I imagine the graph of GLD inventory will ultimately look more like a waterfall than a gently-sloping stream.

You also wrote:

"FOFOA, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that GLD will always track the XAU price, and only the XAU price. Thus, GLD would be entirely drained of gold before the gold-XAU parity is broken."

A few things here… First, why is there any discussion about GLD tracking the price of gold? It tracks the price of gold because it has an objective value that includes the price of gold in its calculation formula. It tracks the price of gold because an arbitrage opportunity arises when it doesn't. An arbitrage opportunity arises because arbitrageurs believe an arbitrage opportunity arises, simple as that. It is either an actively managed fund or it is not. I think it is not. And I think the arb that keeps it close to the Comex POG is an all-paper arb simply because people (arbitrageurs) believe the opportunity is real and therefore make it real.

Second, yes, I think GLD would be de facto drained and trading stopped before parity is broken. And I expect that would all happen while you are asleep. From Unambiguous Wealth 2:

"And this is a key difference between the average guy and the big money. Big money isn't used to being kept waiting. Big money owns the "bus company". They know the buses aren't going to run before the little guy. They panic early. There was an electronic bank run around the time of the Lehman collapse. That was one of the reasons why governments around the world stepped in with fresh deposit guarantees. But there were no lines outside the banks to alert the average guy to what the Giants were up to…

There's only one way to beat the Giants to the gold, and that is to run in front of them."

Lastly, keep in mind that the price you see is a derivative (the product) of sales that already happened in the past. To us shrimps it appears to be the price of the immediate future, that is, it is the price we'll pay right now if we choose to execute our purchase. But this is only a shrimp illusion. In reality the quoted price (bid and offer—it's actually a spread and not one price) is the result of sales that already transpired.

Imagine you are a hypothetical Giant with a few billion in your briefcase and you want a lot of gold. So you fly to London and somehow get yourself in to observe the daily fix. You are waiting, calculator in hand, to hear them quote you the price you will pay for your gold, since the fix is supposedly the cash price of physical. So they call out the AM fix and you immediately step up with your cash to take advantage of this awesome deal. What do you think happens next?

Or let's say you don't care to fly to London, so you just phone up the bullion desk at JP Morgan where you've got $5B cash sitting in your account after you just liquidated your APPL shares and BTC. Let's assume you get the bullion desk on the phone just based on your name without the guy actually looking at what's in your cash account. You ask him to quote you a price for gold. He asks, "are you buying or selling." You're a clever guy so you ask, "what does it matter?" He says, "OK" and proceeds to quote you two prices, one for buying and one for selling. You immediately say, "I'll take 100 tonnes, allocated." What do you think happens next?

Let's say you're really clever and figure out how to get a lot of physical all at a good price, rather than buying over time as most Giants do. You're a little late to the big game and you need to play catch-up! Let's say you read FOFOA, you understand Freegold, and you believe my bellwether who says the technicals suggest the $PoG is heading to somewhere between $1,050 and $1,250 by the end of 2013 (he actually predicted that). Just to be safe, you figure that a price of $1,450 for all of it will make you happy!! So how would you do it?

Well, the way to do it is to lock in your price on the FOREX. If you can buy paper gold at $1,450, then you can take your time buying physical wherever you can get it, at any price, and then sell off your XAUUSD position in bits and pieces concurrent with your physical acquisitions. Even if the price skyrockets to $2K you'll still be getting it for $1,450 because the paper you'll sell will be $2K at the time you sell it. You've locked in your price!

The first problem you will encounter is that your "footprint" is too large, even for the FOREX. Your limit order of 100 tonnes at $1,450 will only be partially filled and then the price will skyrocket. You see, as the price hits $1,450 it is only a reflection of past sales. Sure, it is an offer price, but all you will get is whatever has already been offered by sellers on that exchange at $1,450. And that's just paper!

Anyway, enough hypotheticals. But I will note that it seems paper gold is used in this way to accumulate some physical. Once you own paper gold, even XAUUSD, you can either ask to have it allocated by the bullion bank and find out what they say, or you can simply use it as a locked-in price and sell it off as you buy your physical closer to home, on a slower timeline, without worrying about price changes.

I guess my point is that the price we see is always the price of the past, it is never the price of the future. And also that there are many ways the physical flow can be stressed even if the BIS has the biggest Giants in check. If enough "clever" small giants were doing this, I could imagine it would tug on the LBMA through the dealers' network. Then again, I'm sure that none of these "small giants" read FOFOA or understand Freegold, so it's probably just something else that's stressing the subterranean flow right now. Perhaps official support has been withdrawn.

Alright, I think that's enough of "my view" for today. ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA
_____________________________________

GOR – The Gold Oil Ratio



Two years ago I started thinking about the GOR (gold oil ratio) and how it has been relatively constant ever since an American oil company first struck oil in Saudi Arabia. (Read more here. See also US Mints ‘Gold Disks’ for Oil Payments to Saudi Arabia.) Then about a year ago, while I was working on Peak Exorbitant Privilege, I noticed a correlation between the GOR and "the privilege". (Important: Always keep in mind that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.)

I don't pretend to know if the USG "wants" oil prices higher or lower. There's an argument that high oil prices support the strong dollar and the perpetual US(G) deficit, but it's a double-edged sword. What I do know is that the dollar reserve system needs oil and gold to remain correlated commodities as they have been for the last 67 years. So I think the $PoG is kind of stuck where it is right now. If gold rises, oil needs to rise in tandem or else it's curtains for the dollar reserve system. But if oil rises too much, then it's probably curtains for the dollar anyway. And if paper gold falls, well, you know what I think about that. It's what I call a Catch-22. A no-win situation for the dollar at present. It can't afford a big movement of either in either direction, IMO.

The GOR ranged from 9 up to 29 for the last 67 years. What I noticed while writing Peak Exorbitant Privilege was that the extremes of that GOR range correlated with times when the US exorbitant privilege apparently retreated quite a bit. It seems that somewhere around 15 in the GOR is the sweet spot for the $IMFS, and dropping below 9 or up to almost 30 was somehow stressful on the $IMFS (or at least indicative of stress) and something had to give. Of course, if you understand ANOTHER (which I think I do), the GOR will gap up or phase shift from this range to around 1,000 when gold is revalued in real terms. But maybe we should call that the FGOR since comparing it to the GOR is like comparing apples to oranges. Anyway, I guess I am expecting the GOR to plunge from 16 down to around 9 in the final moments before revaluation. That could either be the paper gold price falling below $900 or the oil price rising to $200. Either way, I think it will portend imminent transition to the new Freegold paradigm.

Here's the GOR data going back to 1946, the very time the world's largest oil refinery first went into production as a joint operation between the Saudis and the American oil companies (Saudi Aramco):

Annual Average

Gold and Crude Price

1946-Present
# of bbl Oil 1 OZ Gold will buy
Year Average $/bbl Average $/oz Ave bbl / oz
1946 $1.63 $34.71 21.294
1947 $2.16 $34.71 16.069
1948 $2.77 $34.71 12.531
1949 $2.77 $31.69 11.440
1950 $2.77 $34.72 12.534
1951 $2.77 $34.72 12.534
1952 $2.77 $34.60 12.491
1953 $2.92 $34.84 11.932
1954 $2.99 $35.04 11.719
1955 $2.93 $35.03 11.956
1956 $2.94 $34.99 11.901
1957 $3.00 $34.95 11.650
1958 $3.01 $35.10 11.661
1959 $3.00 $35.10 11.700
1960 $2.91 $35.27 12.120
1961 $2.85 $35.25 12.368
1962 $2.85 $35.23 12.361
1963 $3.00 $35.09 11.697
1964 $2.88 $35.10 12.188
1965 $3.01 $35.12 11.668
1966 $3.10 $35.13 11.332
1967 $3.12 $34.95 11.202
1968 $3.18 $39.31 12.362
1969 $3.32 $41.28 12.434
1970 $3.39 $36.02 10.625
1971 $3.60 $40.62 11.283
1972 $3.60 $58.42 16.228
1973 $4.75 $97.39 20.503
1974 $9.35 $154.00 16.471
1975 $7.67 $160.86 20.973
1976 $13.10 $124.74 9.522
1977 $14.40 $147.84 10.267
1978 $14.95 $193.40 12.936
1979 $25.10 $306.00 12.191
1980 $37.42 $615.00 16.435
1981 $35.75 $460.00 12.867
1982 $31.83 $376.00 11.813
1983 $29.08 $424.00 14.580
1984 $28.75 $361.00 12.557
1985 $26.92 $317.00 11.776
1986 $14.64 $368.00 25.137
1987 $17.50 $447.00 25.543
1988 $14.87 $437.00 29.388
1989 $18.33 $381.00 20.786
1990 $23.19 $383.51 16.538
1991 $20.19 $362.11 17.935
1992 $19.25 $343.82 17.861
1993 $16.74 $359.77 21.492
1994 $15.66 $384.00 24.521
1995 $16.75 $383.79 22.913
1996 $20.46 $387.81 18.955
1997 $18.97 $331.02 17.450
1998 $11.91 $294.24 24.705
1999 $16.55 $278.98 16.857
2000 $27.40 $279.11 10.186
2001 $23.00 $271.04 11.784
2002 $22.81 $309.73 13.579
2003 $27.69 $363.38 13.123
2004 $37.41 $409.72 10.952
2005 $50.04 $444.74 8.888
2006 $58.30 $603.46 10.351
2007 $64.20 $695.39 10.832
2008 $91.48 $871.96 9.532
2009 $53.48 $972.35 18.180
2010 $71.21 $1,224.53 17.196
2011 $87.04 $1,571.52 18.055
Average 14.771

Consider that the GOR peaked at 29.388 in 1988. That peak correlates with a dramatic drop-off in the US trade deficit from more than 30% of total trade in 1987 down to only 5% by 1991:


Here's the data from that exorbitant privilege chart which was explained in Peak Exorbitant Privilege as the percentage of US imports paid for with paper promises rather than actual exports:

1970 -4.14%
19712.14%
19727.49%
1973-2.13%
19743.43%
1975 -10.32%
19764.09%
197715.17%
197814.30%
19799.88%
19806.66%
19815.21%
19828.07%
198317.84%

198427.26%
198529.66%
198630.88%
198730.31%
198820.99%
198916.05%
199013.13%
19915.11%
19925.98%
19939.86%
199412.28%
199510.82%
199610.89%
199710.38%

199815.11%
199921.39%
200025.99%
200126.42%
200229.85%
200332.42%
200434.23%
200535.50%
200634.04%
200729.63%
200827.48%
200919.49%
201021.39%
201120.97%

What drew this correlation to my attention was that there is also a dramatic drop-off in the US trade deficit that corresponds with the two times the GOR hit the bottom of its range as well. So I’m considering whether both extremes might be somehow tough on the $IMFS (or at least indicative of stress—an effect or a cause of the stress?). In 1976 the GOR hit 9.522, its lowest point in 30 years, and the US trade deficit subsequently fell from 15% in 1977 down to 5% in 1981. And then in 2005 the GOR hit its lowest point ever at 8.888 which preceded a drop in the trade deficit from 35% in 2005 to 19% in 2009:


Is it possible that the correlation may have something to do with the ability of our trading partners to save their surplus production revenue? If you think about the oil price as, in general, a representation of or proxy for the general price level of goods flowing to the West, and the (paper) gold price as the determinant of the eastward flow of physical relative to the westward flow of gold, it starts to make a little sense.

With a low GOR, general prices are relatively high providing a high income to the producers, but with a low paper price for gold, the underlying physical flow might be relatively tight. So while the net-producer can get more gold by weight with his relatively higher surpluses, the Superproducer finds it difficult to get the larger quantities of physical his currency profits are telling him that he should be able to get. Notice I'm not talking just about oil Superproducers. With a low GOR everyone will have higher profits in real (gold) terms.

Look at the prices of oil and gold in 1976 and 2005 above. Oil was very high relative to gold, so oil currency profits should have brought in massive amounts of gold (by weight). But if that massive tonnage of physical gold was not readily available, this would stress the system and something might have to give, like, say, the US exorbitant privilege.

With a high GOR, on the other hand, the general price level is relatively low and, presumably, paper profits are also relatively smaller (at least relative to gold by weight). So while the Superproducers face no problem getting all the physical their paper profits say they should be able to get, they are also concerned that they are getting relatively less gold (by weight) and that, *once the (paper) GOR reverts back down to its mean*, their foregone purchasing power during that high GOR period will have been cut in half. So, perhaps, they spend more of those overseas dollars in the present which then make their way back to the US, raising the general price level and decreasing the US trade deficit.

The bottom line is that our international monetary system has needed a revaluation in the real price of gold (not just the nominal price) ever since WWI (see Once Upon a Time for more on what happened in the 1920s). That’s a monetary revaluation of gold and a monetary devaluation of the dollar (as opposed to devaluing the dollar against everything else). In 1971 they opted instead to raise the price of oil and everything else for reasons we now know (thanks to ANOTHER). But today the problem is a bit more complicated. Today they really need a gold revaluation (only physical gold revalues and nothing else).

As I have said in the past, every ounce of physical gold in the world is owned by somebody. Even the gold in the ground is ultimately owned by the sovereign of that land (in extremis). So, in essence, every last bit of physical gold in the world represents a counterpartyless asset. What this means is that a revaluation of physical does not increase anyone's liabilities. Paper gold is another story.

If paper gold were to be revalued along with physical, the increase in the nominal (meaning in terms of dollars) liabilities of the bullion banks would break the system. But what about a gradual rise in paper gold to, say, $3,500 per ounce? At a GOR of 15 that means an oil price of $233 per barrel. At a GOR of 30, oil would still be almost $20 higher than it is today and then something would have to give.


This view fits with everything else that I expect to ultimately unfold. So it seems like today's (quote-unquote) "gold" can't go much higher or lower without ushering in the new financial architecture. Sometimes I wonder if that's why we've been stuck here at $1,600 for a year and a half now. If I was supporting the current system, that's where I'd want it to stay, since any big move in either direction will be very stressful.

FOA (08/09/01; 10:27:19MT - usagold.com msg#93)
"everything to do with a gold bull market"

This not only has "everything to do with a gold bull market", it has everything to do with a changing world financial architecture. And I have to admit: if you hated our last one, you will no doubt hate this new one, too. However, everyone that is positioned in physical gold will carry this storm in fantastic shape. This is because the ECB has no intentions of backing their currency with gold and every intention of using gold as a "free trading" financial reserve. None of the other metals will play a part in this.

Sincerely,
FOFOA

The first time I used this song was more than three years ago, and I still feel it, more now than ever! ;)

640 comments:

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Anonymous said...

poopyjim said..
“Why yes I do have around 8 mo. worth of food stored as well as firearms, a tent, first aid supplies, etc. etc.”

Okay so you have MadMax covered, ditto + 14 mo. But what about scenarios in between happy times and MadMax. I mean I’ll choose a warm house, electricity, running water etc. over a tent in the woods any day of the week. The problem is how do you ‘pay’ for the gas, electricity and water while hyper-inflation is raging ‘without’ selling your gold?

I’m pretty sure 'any' form of paper will not survive the reset. Why own Euro/Paper when you can own gold? Why sell gold for paper when you can sell silver for paper?

Dante_Eu said...

spaul67,

Well, someone will always be screwed. Sometimes less sometimes more. There is no perfect system and will never be. Freegold is a pragmatic compromise.

For example, there is millions, if not billions people suffering because of US$ supremacy. And yet, the world goes on...

Anonymous said...

@M

Interesting observations indeed! My dealer is a little shrimpy place; I doubt if they have more than 10-15 oz. of gold in stock at any given time. I think the supply problems, when they begin, will start with the larger dealers and trickle down to smaller ones like my guy. So I'd be the last to notice probably.

Also, my opinion is that a run on the BB's reserves presently constitutes the greatest threat to $IMFS, but who knows?

@spaul

Okay so you have MadMax covered, ditto + 14 mo. But what about scenarios in between happy times and MadMax. I mean I’ll choose a warm house, electricity, running water etc. over a tent in the woods any day of the week. The problem is how do you ‘pay’ for the gas, electricity and water while hyper-inflation is raging ‘without’ selling your gold?

If my current supplies are insufficient, I do have a job (with USG). I also have family and friends. The point is that silver does not solve this problem anyway!

I’m pretty sure 'any' form of paper will not survive the reset. Why own Euro/Paper when you can own gold? Why sell gold for paper when you can sell silver for paper?

Why hold euro instead of silver? Because the euro may actually hold its value through the crisis, unlike silver!

My prediction is that silver will be worth so little people will practically be throwing it out on the streets. That roll of eagles might get you about as much food as a $20 bill gets you now if you're lucky. This idea that silver is somehow a hedge against a monetary crisis is just snake oil sold to gullible plebs by by borderline con-artists like Sprott & KWN who have been propagandizing about "delivery problems" and "the cartel" for years.

I've said all this before, but silver has no monetary future. It is held by weak hands i.e. consumer plebs like you and me. These are the folks who will be hurt most by the crisis and will be the first to liquidate their belongings when it hits. I'll place my bet with the world's CB's and super-producers, thanks.

Anonymous said...

Disclaimer:

I do not advocate holding euro through the crisis. They may well lose 99+% of their value for all I know. Saying the euro is a better bet than silver ain't saying much. I currently have zero euros. I might acquire a paltry amount eventually.

Motley Fool said...

If one had to diversify for income stream during the collapse, I would go with staple food stocks and the like that pay dividends.

My 2c.

milamber said...

FOFOA:

"Of course you should also make other preparations to ensure that your bare necessities of food, clothing and shelter are taken care of. Some silver and even some dollar currency makes sense in this regard. This whole "gold thing" is really just for those people that have more money than they will need to live on for about a year. And it is for those that would like to store that excess wealth in the most universally liquid vehicle since they don't know exactly what they will be needing a year from now."

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/02/greece-is-word.html?


Milamber

milamber said...

Spaul67,

I am not sure I am following you...

You write,

"I’m pretty sure 'any' form of paper will not survive the reset."

By "any", do you mean all? And so you are saying that during & after transition, there will be no fiat currency? And Silver will be the MoE during & after transition?

Milamber

Anonymous said...

spaul,


You may want to ask yourself this question:

How long can you go without making a full utility payment before they shut you off? A few months if you have a solid payment history and good credit? I guess it depends on where you live;)


You won't be the only person having trouble paying your bills, I'm guessing many people will during HI. I'd rather destroy my credit rating/piss off the gas company/ etc, instead of selling gold at the worst possible time... or worse, buy a shit load of silver only to find it is almost impossible to sell when you need it most.

Maybe if you were really wise and had great timing you would see all of this coming and prepay a good bit on certain "bills" so you could then sleep well and comfortably? Why let your short-term savings, meant for living expenses, HI away?

Edwardo said...

What is more troubling is how Freegold disrupts the ponzi schemes used by all nations of the Earth to fleece their local net producers. That in my mind is the bigger issue

The word disrupt doesn't capture the evolution that will occur when the wealth reserve function of money is severed from the medium of exchange function of same. The abuse will be resolutely terminated ,and that's what happens when you abuse producers, especially vital producers for too long. Remember this fatally flawed and now terminally ill system has had a number of near death experiences before our present time.

In short, we aren't, at least in my view, simply looking at a state change where the global monetary architecture is concerned, but are faced with a profound transformation in societal relations writ large. Because when you change the monetary system fundamentally the ripples travel all across the pond of humanity. Such is the nature of money, and that is why I think even the HMS crowd will acknowledge, in time, and almost certainly begrudgingly, a marked improvement brought on by the new system.

Anonymous said...

poopyjim said..
“That roll of eagles might get you about as much food as a $20 bill gets you now if you're lucky. This idea that silver is somehow a hedge against a monetary crisis is just snake oil sold to gullible plebs by borderline con-artists like Sprott & KWN who have been propagandizing about "delivery problems" and "the cartel" for years.”

Right ‘now’ the delivery date for Silver Eagles is out 1 month, Gold Eagles two weeks, the premium over the ‘paper’ spot price for physical silver is twice as high percentage wise as gold on top of this. So you seriously think that something like a $20 dollar bill will hold its purchase power better than 20 oz of Silver? Seriously? Heck a $20 dollar bill hasn’t even held its value vs. silver even during the comparatively mild inflation of the last forty years let alone a hyper-inflationary event, gasoline still cost only a dime, that provided you use a silver dime. So your primary liquid SHTF go to asset for the upcoming paper crises is paper? Seriously? What part of “all paper will burn” warning from Another don’t you understand?

Here is what will happen, first your paper will burn taking away your financial fig leaf, at which point when/if push comes to shove and you need something you don’t have, you’ll be forced to sell your gold for paper at price ‘well’ below Freegold (so close and yet so far, better luck next time for that oz), I’ll take the other side of that trade and sell my silver for paper and give you that paper for your gold at a GSR < 20. Thank you very much come again.

Freegold will be a sudden event not a gradually increase in gold price from planet ponzi to Freegold over a number of years. We were clearly on that track up and until Sept 2011 at which point an all out assault on the part of the paper pushers began on both gold ‘&’ silver; the most recent attack occurring just three days ago.

I fully expect based on the track record above that the paper pushers will attempt to save the system and along the way try every trick in the book until the whole system breaks down and physical gold no longer flows for paper, shrimp or giant. Cyprus should also be a big wake up call for all those attempting to SoV ‘within’ the system regardless of form.

Anyway I fully expect that at some point my GSR side play will also shut down because gold will be forced one way or the other to leave the field of play. But burning paper will still bid for silver as the last PM standing unless the TPTB shut that down as well hence all the other lesser SoV I hold that aren’t gold or silver. Important safety tip, if you don’t have the basics covered you have no business buying a lot of gold or silver. Again my silver is to cover for things not ‘easily’ stored or self-produced but available at ever increasing paper prices even during hyper-inflation.

I guess what I’m trying to warn you and other 100% gold guys about is that the transition from planet ponzi to Freegold will not necessarily be as easy as warm summer breeze. One day you’ll have your pretty yellow rocks and the next day you wake up kings. I would welcome that since I also hold gold and would rather skip all the nastiness I feel is coming. My guess though is that the current cabal running the show won’t go down without a fight, a fight that I believe will be epic with any number of twists and turns some of which will require an asset you can sell and yet floats above the hyper-inflation but ‘isn’t’ gold.

Gold is much ‘too’ valuable to sell prior to Freegold and yet paper will burn, that just leaves………….fill in the blank_______________.

Hint it has been used as SoV and MoE by mankind throughout history and isn’t gold but looks like it just belongs right by its side as its protector.

Gold’s ability to stay still is in fact enabled by silver, thus perhaps the GSR is related to the ratio of poopyjim/spaul67? Its the spaul67 of the world that buys poopyjim’s are forced to sell?

The sale of gold for paper is the act of desperate man. Use silver instead.

One Bad Adder said...

Hmmm! The $US:$IRX juxtaposed with altDX:$PoG (when they update) show an odd divergence which will "somehow" need to correct over the coming days.

spaul67: - good lines Sire. Thinking like a true Goldheart IMHO.

One Bad Adder said...

...and then there's BitCoin!! The currency sans CB management aka (in Forum vernacular) FreeCurrency ...seems to be catching a Bid today at around $80 / BC.

Hill C said...

The drain continues - 20 tonnes in 2 days! Now at 1134.

Anonymous said...

milamber said...

“By "any", do you mean all? And so you are saying that during & after transition, there will be no fiat currency? And Silver will be the MoE during & after transition?”

Paper will survive but its purchasing power will diminish, perhaps very rapidly. But don’t worry, they’ll just print up a fresh batch you can spend after first giving it to their cyrony capitalist enablers. So no, in generally you won’t be going down to the corner store and buying food with silver let alone gold, you’ll be using paper. In fact the open display of either gold or silver could draw unwanted attention. Its best to look just as down and out as the next guy.

That is the paper that manages to get outside the system, ie Cyprus. What Cyrus made clear to me is that the cabal can also ‘destroy’ existing paper at the same rate it creates new paper it then spends back into the economy. Thus the much predicted hyper-inflation can be cut off if they steal or otherwise lock up other forms of paper wealth within the system. Hello SS, 401K, pensions, UST etc. In fact post stock market crash would be great time just to roll all these various retirement systems into one ‘fair’ pension ‘lockbox uber safe double pinky swear its yours’ fund. Pennies for everyone.

At which point even paper millionaires and most individuals we’ll be starved for cash and counting the days until their ‘universal’ pension check comes and their EBT card is reset. The remaining net producers (those with excess paper at end of the month) will now be on the hunt for any SoV outside the system, once burned twice shy. So they are the ones taking the other side of the PM for cash trade.

They’ll prefer gold obviously but will take silver since it has all of gold’s SoV abilities only to a lesser extent as the King of Commodities though not gold’s monetary role which will emerge in Freegold. So silver is a good pre-ponzi collapse but pre-freegold SoV.

Now the 100% gold club thinks the Freegold transition period will be brief, likely measured in days at most a month. I on the other hand, not so inclined to discount the TPTB, think it could take months to years if ever frankly. Hence the higher portion of silver and essentials relative to gold.

Now it’s anyone’s guess what the GSR will be but having plotted the GSR vs. silver price you can clearly see a compression of the GSR as the silver price goes higher. Not sure what to make of this but the data is clear none the less to anyone that wants to take their gold only blinders off and look. After all this will be the world’s first global monetary melt down, so data is shall we say a little sparse one way or the other.

Now it’s entirely possible that in my attempt to protect for a more protracted transition to Freegold that I’ll miss out on the full effect of the Freegold pop? Sure, you got me good poopyjim what a goof I was. But then I have to ask how much wealth does one really need? I for one just want to get my family through this transition alive and in one piece frankly. Now if in addition to achieving that objective the date on my tombstone and my retirement date aren’t the same then that’s even better. Life is good.

burningfiat said...

OBA :)

More like a Silverheart IMHO.

Did you get a chance to buy BTFD this time in BTC?

Polly Metallic said...

For the transition, hold whatever items you feel comfortable with, just realize silver is a gamble. You're probably better off with barterable goods like produce from your vegetable garden or extra rolls of toilet paper. That said, silver isn't going to zero, so it can't hurt to have some if it makes you feel better. We have some and will keep some because we like and have collected silver Eagles and silver dollars for years. We have silver we bought when it was $4.00 - $5.00/oz and I rather doubt the price will crash to that level thanks to silver's industrial use. Sure, it may or may not be used for barter, but it can be sold for cash unless the entire global economy completely shuts down. If there are no wholesale dealers buying,we can take silver to the refinery we work with.

I don't think a hyperinflation would last so long that people will need to sell either gold or silver to survive. Utility bills aren't likely to go up in a few months so fast that you can't pay for them out of your regular income or your savings. Ditto for groceries and other essentials. Assuming you are not living hand to mouth now, and you have savings set aside, you may have to pare back your standard of living, but you won't starve. I just finished reading When Money Dies, and even in Weimar Germany most people carried on with their daily lives. People on fixed incomes fared the worst and sold off pianos and furniture, but people with jobs typically got frequent raises and the government subsidized staples so poor people could afford very basic food.

Governments fear civil unrest. A hyperinflation lasting a year or two is unlikely, IMO.

milamber said...

Spaul67, in less than an hour you wrote in two separate posts, the following words:

" Freegold will be a sudden event not a gradually increase in gold price from planet ponzi to Freegold over a number of years."

"Now the 100% gold club thinks the Freegold transition period will be brief, likely measured in days at most a month. I on the other hand, not so inclined to discount the TPTB, think it could take months to years if ever frankly."

I am trying to understand your argument here, but I am not sure what it is exactly you are arguing.

Milamber

Roacheforque said...

Yes, it does Hill C. Yes, it does.

This is beginning to look more and more like the run on bullion that Another foretold of, including the giant who cries "foul" when LBMA says,"we will cash you out, now go to the physical market and buy."

There is simply too much anecdotal evidence when I read between the lines.

Something has happened and the status quo has been upset.

One Bad Adder said...

burning: - spaul67 is a kindred spirit it seems - keen to hold HIS Gold through thin and thinner ...aka a TRUE G-Heart ;-)
BTFD? I'm thinking sub 40 before wading in ...and may (on "current" activity) miss the boat completely ...Ag > BTC might then be a future swap possibility.

burningfiat said...

Good point OBA, in the grand scheme of things all of us commenting here will most likely do comparably well (compared to all the other zombies in society) whether we have 10%-50% play money/defense money in silver, bitcoins or euros. As long as we acknowledge the real trophy.

Even if silver becomes almost worthless at the worst possible time (I tend to agree with Jim on that), you'll still have the gold right!

MatrixSentry said...

It's the end of an era. I officially cancelled my Stockcharts account!. I have followed the technicals of the gold, the dollar, treasuries, SP500 and the Dow daily for the last 10 years. The usefulness of TA is marginal now that we are in the home stretch. It just isn't that interesting anymore.

Never thought I would ever do it.

Anonymous said...

MatrixSentry,

Is there an indicator that would demonstrate to you that this is not the home stretch, and is rather just a period of capitulation? Such as spending several months at depressed levels, or popping back up to $1600?

byiamBYoung said...

For us visual learners, the GLD drain:

GLD drain

said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
said...

Is SLV being drained?

One Bad Adder said...

burning etal: - Yes Sir Physical Au IS the end ...and Ag, BTC etc. are but MY current "means".
I think (THINK) it's great to see the various end-game scenarios fleshed out here ...but agree entirely with the premise that no-one "knows" what the future holds.
That said, thinking trumps believing EVERY TIME ...IMHO!

Roacheforque said...

MatrixSentry,

I too feel that the current dollar price "discovery" of gold has completely separated from any sort of physical supply/demand dynamic.

The paper gold market is now feeding upon itself. This smashdown was clearly a result of LBMA / ABN Amro, these are significant events and the "price reaction" to these events is no longer credible.

This lack in credibility in turn facilitates further massive puking , the response to which shall be even less credible, and so on, and so on.

This paper is not what it says it is, or was, and it is becoming clear in the thoughts and minds of those compelled to act upon it.

This is indeed the event "in our time" upon us.

said...

Matrix

You believe GTU will make it through the transition? You think your broker will make it?

Anonymous said...

Alright you ol' silverados.

The main thing is this: silver's present valuation relies on ongoing investment demand (i.e. stackers backin' up da truck!). To keep silver where it is (or increasing) you guys have to KEEP STACKING. This is because there is significantly more silver produced than is consumed by industry, and unless you guys keep bidding up all that excess silver, we get a glut of supply and a substantially lower prices. (see here and here)

Here's what I think will happen during hyperinflation. I think you guys will stop stackin' and you'll start sellin' because you will HAVE to. Now maybe YOU won't have to but there are PLENTY of silver stackers who will. And that's a problem, because not only have you guys stopped stacking (creating a supply overhang) but all that silver you were stackin' before is coming to market all at once exacerbating the problem! And there won't be any giants waiting in the wings to scoop it up either (unlike with gold). All you'll have is a weak bid from industry into an overwhelming sea of silver.

So yeah that's why I think you may well see silver hit $1 or less (in REAL terms) during hyperinflation. It won't be permanent, but it will be enough to make you silverbugs curse the day you ever heard of Eric Sprott.

Also, re: the premiums you're seeing on silver coins. This is not necessarily indicative of a shortage of silver the element, just (perhaps) a temporary shortage of coinage. As evidence: SLV is gaining inventory despite the price of silver having crashed.

Dr. Octagon said...

Polly Metallic said:
I just finished reading When Money Dies, and even in Weimar Germany most people carried on with their daily lives. People on fixed incomes fared the worst and sold off pianos and furniture, but people with jobs typically got frequent raises and the government subsidized staples so poor people could afford very basic food. Governments fear civil unrest. A hyperinflation lasting a year or two is unlikely, IMO.

For what it's worth, I am in complete agreement with the above. I don't see us getting reduced to barter for necessities. With rising prices I expect the majority of people to continue to work, to continue to produce goods, etc. Things will get tighter, but I expect rising wages to mostly offset rising prices.

If I owned a gas station full of fuel, I would sell the fuel for cash, which I know I can use to buy more fuel from my suppliers, all the way up the chain. The same would be true if I owned a grocery store. What the heck would I do with silver?

So I think it's best to have some physical cash available, for immediate transactions in a form that everyone is already comfortable with. Sure, it'll loose value quickly, but it will still be accepted, and I'll continue to work, and continue to receive income, so there's no need for it to hold value for long. The same is true all the way up the supply chain.

Silver isn't a better alternative to cash - it's a worse one.

Biju said...

Multiple media reporting people in India rushing to buy Gold. I think this is the same in other Asian countries as well.

http://m.thehindu.com/news/cities/Kochi/dip-dip-hurray-price-slide-spurs-gold-rush/article4624265.ece/

Michael dV said...

Biju
and meanwhile the POG tanks...Physical purchases do not offset paper sales..and GLD inventory continues to fall...the pieces on the board are in play...Spasky looks intent..

Michael dV said...

Wil
love it when you talk dirty...throwing in a few A/FOA isms.
Yes...we watch together...

M said...

Wil's wit bank is not low on reserves lolz.

Anyway ZeroHedge just posted this.

US Mint Sells Record 63,500 Ounces Of Gold In One Day

Punchline number one, as the chart below shows, is that the more the price of gold fell, the more aggressive the purchases of physical gold through the Mint became, rising to 96,500 oz in the last two days alone. Buying more of something you want when the price drops: what a stunning concept - explain that to the algos who nearly crashed the German stock market overnight.

^This isn't India, this is the USA were talkin..

said...

Would you say gold is a Veblen good?

Anand Srivastava said...

@spaul67 and DM

Even when I bought the little silver I had, margins were higher on silver. The reason is simple to produce a silver coin and gold coin you have the same process and the costs are same. Even storage and transport costs are same. But the cost is vastly different. Why would you expect similar premium on silver? It should logically be much higher. Another point silver also varies a lot more than gold owing to the much smaller capitalization. This means that the dealers have to take a larger hedge.

BTW I have sold out the silver I had in with me. Some is stored too far. I will probably sell it when I get it. No point in waiting for it to become worthless.

Regarding the energy theory. Understand that the silver has a higher value than its extraction cost because it has some monetary value at the present times. After transition it will have none. So expect the price to come down a lot.

Monetary value means, value in excess of its extraction or fabrication costs. Note Currency has a monetary value, because its fabrication cost is negligible compared to its monetary value. Same thing applies to gold and silver in the present times. But to a much smaller extent because of the existence of paper gold and silver. After revaluation gold will achieve its full monetary value, while silver will lose its monetary value. During the crisis, silver will be too cheap because nobody will want it.

You guys are also thinking of selling it during the crisis. Try to find a person who is planning to buy it during the crisis :-).

Motley Fool said...

Luke

What is GTU? Brokers tend to make a lot of money during such chaos. If you pick a smallish brokerage that has no other obligations then yes they should survive I think.

TF

One Bad Adder said...

Ahh! ...the good old TA (ref previous links) is indicating the systemic wheels are still on ...albeit wobbly.
DX:$IRX is implying a four to six odd week lag with the US Dollar ...and as such we "might" see an uptick in $PoG over the next week or so.
Gold-price watchers needn't get too excited tho - there's plenty more (downside) from where that last rout came from!
These incessant $PoG take-downs are (it would seem) being very well conducted within the scheme of things.

Motley Fool said...

Luke

I looked up GTU. Who knows, personally I wouldn't take the chance if I had a choice.

TF

Motley Fool said...

Polly

"Utility bills aren't likely to go up in a few months so fast that you can't pay for them out of your regular income or your savings. Ditto for groceries and other essentials."

I think you may be in for a rude awakening.

Jeff said...

Comparing the weimar paper currency HI to the USD digital global reserve currency HI is comparing a horse-drawn cart to a sports car. This one is of a totally different scale. IMO it should be over in a matter of weeks, at most.

Edwardo said...

+1 Jeff.

Polly Metallic said...

Jeff, that's along the lines of my thinking. Central bankers would be on planes overnight to convene and roll out Freegold or other interim measures to help stabilize the situation. It seems if people had reserves of food and necessities to last a few months, they'd survive. Yes, I definitely may be wrong due to the extra complexity of the dollar being the world reserve currency and all currencies being, in an indirect sense, linked to the dollar.

We heat with coal which is easily stored indefinitely. We have a surplus of food and daily necessities, have a garden, acres of woods, and live in an area with lots of farms. I hope we will be able to hole up and wait out the worst of the turmoil while being a help to family and friends.

byiamBYoung said...

PM/Jeff,

One would hope that at least on some level, there is a conversation already ongoing amongst the central banksters on this very topic.

Let's hope so... I can only stomach just so much Spam.

Cheers




Polly Metallic said...

Maybe you can barter your Spam for some eggs and cheese :-D.

said...

MF sorry I meant that for Matrix. He has stated before that is what he has his 401k invested in.

tEON said...

@Biju "Multiple media reporting people in India rushing to buy Gold. I think this is the same in other Asian countries as well."

The US should introduce India to our advanced financial engineering.

Dante_Eu said...

Watching the $PoG, after monday's big fall, is an eerie experience. It seems too calm, like calm before "the storm" or...:

"Sandstorm" (with lyrics!)

byiamBYoung said...

Dante_Eu,

I agree. When it was plunging, I felt confidence. Now watching it bobble around, there's some (irrational?) creeping doubt...

Knotty Pine said...

Here are some investment ideas from a recent presentation by Jim Rickards. He is long Euro/short USD.

Here

DP said...

If the world wants to deleverage/deflate in real terms, but the ECB has a #SingleMandate for #PriceStability

Doncha think following long EUR short USD advise could be pretty wrong, before it is eventually spectacularly right [but probably they're already stopped out long before]?

M said...

Peter Schiff made another simple point this morning. But this could actually breathe new life into the paper price of gold via physical.

He says that the physical buying spree while the price is falling has caused dealer inventory to dry up. (I couldn't buy yesterday for the first time ever, the ZH story about the US mint, India and Thailand stories, he also said that the Perth Mint was the busiest ever)

So now the dealers are going to go to the COMEX to replenish their inventory. What is going to happen when all these dealers go to the COMEX for the specific reason of taking delivery ? Short squeeze ?

Will this breathe new life into the paper markets ?

Edwardo said...

ByiamBYoung,

I can only stomach just so much Spam

Stomach pains are monstrous.

said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Knotty Pine said...

@DP

I think Timing is Everything and whatever the Pussycat Dolls say!

Victory said...

Luke, a few day old hehe - check the date again ace

said...

Do dealers normally use the comex for inventory?

said...

Oh wow. Sorry. On my phone and a friend just sent that to me.

Roacheforque said...

Looking at the $PoG is like looking at the direct, diametrical opposite of physical gold.
It reflects the "western minds" reaction to the paper game, even while the physical markets are screaming "shortages, shortages".

Never has there been such a dichotomy of worth as paper vs. gold, one being of infinite value, the other of no value at all ... one representing reality, one representing fantasy.

Reality has not yet come to the West, but it will.

Oil wants its gold, and Giants are beginning to question whether the status quo is worth supporting.

Anonymous said...

Am I the only one who has no interest in discussing which item would be the best for barter? I don't remember Another ever discussing that subject, except for a single line where he said the whole point of his writings was to help get you *through* the transition, to the other side.

How about discussing the Gold market?

Like the fact that it just had a historical plunge and as far as I can see, there are no issues buying physical at this low price. As a datapoint, I bought at $1350 with a 4.5% premium and it was shipped the next day. As Dante_Eu says, the market appears as calm as can be.

At what point should one look for alternative explanations?

Tommy2Tone said...

"byiamBYoung said...
PM/Jeff,

One would hope that at least on some level, there is a conversation already ongoing amongst the central banksters on this very topic.

Let's hope so... I can only stomach just so much Spam.

Cheers"



LMAO..funniest comment lately! Was it intentional?

Roacheforque said...

Athrone:
Another said that silver will do well through the transition, but not nearly as well as gold. I take that as: all necessities, commodoties and "real things" of "use value" will hold up better than paper. Gold will have a totally different purpose, it's revaluation will be used to clear debt of truly epic proportions.
Thus ends any discussion of silver vs. gold for me.
As far as the ease with which you bought physical at $1350 plus 4.5%, BRAVO, if I had the cash I'd be right there with you, as weak hands are always shaken out here and there, and will be for a time.
I do not expect a Lehman times 100 catastrophe tommorrow, though it is certainly possible, but in the span of more than a decade's gradual managed rise, we now see a much more chaotic world in which gold has come to the forefront.

Perhaps the better question is, at what point should one NOT look for alternative explanations ... to which I would say, "AFTER".

Edwardo said...

Wil wrote,

Oil wants its gold, and Giants are beginning to question whether the status quo is worth supporting.

You may be precisely correct. I wonder, however, if they haven't felt for quite some time that the status quo wasn't worth supporting, but determined that it wasn't in their interest to do anything covert, let alone overt, to hasten its demise.

Warning: The recognition of a fast approaching new Nash Equilibrium may cause important but passive members of a (dying) system to cease being passive.

Anonymous said...

milamber said...
{Spaul67, in less than an hour you wrote in two separate posts, the following words:

" Freegold will be a sudden event not a gradually increase in gold price from planet ponzi to Freegold over a number of years."

"Now the 100% gold club thinks the Freegold transition period will be brief, likely measured in days at most a month. I on the other hand, not so inclined to discount the TPTB, think it could take months to years if ever frankly."

I am trying to understand your argument here, but I am not sure what it is exactly you are arguing.}

I need to clarify; I think we’ll have a protracted battle between fiat and gold (with silver in tow) up and until fiat collapses (Phase 1), which then opens up Freegold as a method of ‘rapidly’ (ie months) rebooting global trade monetary system via physical gold ‘should’ the world wisely choose this path (Phase 2). Basically the second coming for gold bugs whether they know it or not.

My rough guess is that there will be a pitched up and down battle up to about $5,000/oz gold and GSR less than 20 that will characterize Phase 1. Phase 2 will be characterized by +$50K/oz gold and a GSR of 100 or more (ie silver fails to achieve monetary orbit). Per chance to dream it goes all the way down to 10,000/1 as some gold only people believe.

So ironically the best way to own gold is to own silver in Phase 1 (which history has already proven for us 100/1 (2001) buyers 30/1 (2008) flippers). Something I was ‘forced’ to do in attempting to keep a 50/50 ratio BTW, poor me. I didn’t come up with this approach it just came about via my overall strategy of being ‘diversified’ outside the system as much as possible. I couldn’t decide between silver or gold so I just purchased both, problem solved. Diversification that ‘also’ includes holding some physical cash, an ability I’ll be utilizing at these fire sale prices.

The fact is I’m already ahead of where I would have been in terms of physical gold if I was 100% gold from the start, thanks to silver. In Phase 2 the tables will turn in that the best way to own silver is to first own gold. I’m all primed and ready eagerly awaiting for poopyjim’s pop of ‘worthless’ silver. Backup the truck boys. Please Please poopyjim tell me it will be million/1.

Meanwhile you can fully expect that even after Freegold the TPTB will be desperately attempt to restart the paper ponzi scheme proven so effective at liberating the wealth of net producers anew the world over. BTW this is the main reason I believe $IMF is so entrenched; it enables this type of theft in all nations. Think of it as one big mob family with the head mobster staying in power because it grants territory to the lesser mobsters provided they send him a cut (ie exorbitant privilege)

Freegold then goes back into hiding awaiting another generation of FOFOAians not yet born to re-discover, like the fire or the wheel. Hence why diversification post Freegold may be ‘just’ as important as Freegold itself. Exceedingly cheap silver relative to gold fits the bill nicely as an exit. Silver after all ‘must’ flow.

In short don’t fight city hall or the mob, the best you can do is front run them. The best us little shrimps and do is to follow in the footsteps of giants or mobsters, take your pick.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Octagon said...
“Silver isn't a better alternative to cash - it's a worse one.”

Cash? Seriously? what part of Trillion dollar notes buying a couple eggs don’t you understand?

This has ‘never’ been true in all of human history, especially during a hyper-inflation.

I’m pretty sure I could have exchanged some silver for a wheel barrow of Marks during Germany’s hyper-inflationary event. That is not because silver was necessarily more valuable relative to say essentials like food but that cash was worthless vs. everything real like silver. Then what is the use for this worthless cash, you ask then? Why to pay off debts counted in that same worthless cash I would answer. I’ll be more than happy to pay off my mortgage a couple decades ahead of schedule all while my gold sits very very still. My guess is that stillest gold of all is surrounded by silver and ‘not’ cash.

Look you don’t need to trash silver in order to understand or promote the value of gold. They are different tools that find their true utility in different situations. Say for example if/when your government does something really stupid and criminalizes the possession or sale of gold for example. This happened to gold in the good’ol “Land of the Free” USA but not for silver, food for thought, in fact less than a generation ago. Governments are notorious for doing counterproductive and stupid things in a crisis.

Gold’s greatest advantage is ‘also’ its greatest weakness, it is everywhere a creature of the central banks and thus a tool/weapon of the state used to advance its ends. Ends that my not align with hopes and dreams of mere shrimps, golden or otherwise. Especially those evil speculating shrimp that don’t want to take a hit for the team and give up their ill gotten wealth to save the country.

Now could silver come under the thumb of the state as well? It sure could especially if it starts to act as money outside the system in the presence or absence of gold. Unfortunately for the state though silver and not gold ‘must’ flow or else all things electronic can’t happen. So the state can be stupid about gold ‘longer’ than it can be stupid about silver.

Anonymous said...

anand srivastava said...

“After revaluation gold will achieve its full monetary value, while silver will lose its monetary value. During the crisis, silver will be too cheap because nobody will want it.”

I can’t disagree with your prediction regarding gold (which is why I have gold, in fact maybe more than some the 100% gold only clubbers on this board), and relative to silver there may very well be a significant expansion in the GSR post Freegold. In fact I’m actually counting on this. But to suggest that ‘all’ gold holders won’t diversify into silver when they can exchange 1 oz of gold for 10,000 oz of silver is foolish. I’m getting all excited just thinking about it. And to be fair I’ll probably need to get some platinum as well, I mean after all where am I going to put all this stuff. Then there will also be all that cheap (relative to gold) farmland, stocks and real-estate etc. out there as well, so many choices so much gold.

The fact is that silver in the long run is running out and yet is critical for the modern world. The market solution to these conflicting trends is that the price of silver will rise faster than the general inflation level. For someone planning to retire that is exactly what you are looking for. So gold attains monetary orbit and stays relatively constant in terms of purchasing power score 1 for the gold only club, meanwhile silver continues its steady climb from the depths of worthlessness to something the world can’t function without. Own both and you don’t need to be 100% right. Being 50% right is just fine by me, rather than being 100% wrong.

The three most important things in investing are diversity, diversity and diversity.

milamber said...

@ Luke,

something else also happened in 2004 that is gold related

GLD was born...

Hmmmm........I'm sure there is no relationship between GLD entering the GOLD trading picture and the Rothschild dynasty exiting it the same year :)

Milamber

milamber said...

spaul67,

Thanks for clarifying. I wish you well in your strategy.

Milamber

M said...

Luke said...

"Do dealers normally use the comex for inventory?"

Well yeah, I would think so. And even if they use bullion banks or other avenues to get inventory, what happens when the bullion banks have none ? I just got off the phone with ScotiaBank and they still have no gold.(she specifically said gold, meaning they probably have silver) Toronto has none either. Not that I expected them to have any but I was just checking.

There clearly is a demand for physical and dealers will try and fill that demand.

Polly Metallic said...

spaul67,

I don't know why anyone would necessarily want to trade an ounce of gold for 10,000 oz of silver any more than they would trade for 100,000 oz of copper or 500,000 oz of tin.

I can foresee when silver is not included in the new financial architecture that people will lose most of their interest in silver since 60% of current use is said to be investment demand rather than industrial use. Consequently if the various funds like SLV are liquidated and small investors also cash in their Eagles, Maples, rounds, bars, etc. there should be enough silver for several years, maybe decades, of industrial use.

KindofBlue said...

From Sinclair this morning:

"The FreeGold camp has it nailed when they say the trend is away from paper gold to physical. Once gold is free of paper then its price will exceed all expectations in cash physical. On this point they will get no argument from me and I believe even Trader Dan will agree."

We watch this gold market together, yes?

(smile) Sorry, can't help myself.

M said...

@ athrone

"How about discussing the Gold market?

Like the fact that it just had a historical plunge and as far as I can see, there are no issues buying physical"

Yes I agree on the first point. Who cares about barter and silver and all that. But I'm not having as good of luck getting physical. Not even 10 oz bars.

But this is just entertainment for me. I don't actually care about any gold market, any price, physical , paper, GLD, COMEX, you name it, until we see trouble in the US and Japanese 33 and 28 year long bond bombs. I expect to get physical in the next week or so and I expect everything to muddle along until there is trouble in the aforementioned bond markets. You know, the current premier store of value for shrimps and giants, long and short term.

Indenture said...

spaul: "The three most important things in investing are diversity, diversity and diversity." I personally do not enjoy investing. If that is your thing, cool. I wish you luck in your attempt to time the market.

Dante_Eu said...

KindofBlue,

Oh boy, oh boy, I never saw that coming... :-)

"Well I played with fire, I burned it all down
I've made more mistakes than you can count

Well I played with fire, I burned it all down
I've made more mistakes than you can count"

Anand Srivastava said...

I actually think gold will be easier to sell than silver during the crisis. I am expecting that Gold will be revalued at the time of the crisis. So if you have some food stores and a little bit of cash in a harder currency like Euros or bitcoins you can tide over that small duration of crisis. I don't think it will be more than a month.

I expect that the following events will happen.

1) COMEX loses its gold and paper gold becomes worthless. Gold goes into hiding.

2) Financial system undergoes a meltdown because it uses paper gold as collateral. Collateral fails so the derivative market loses all value.
All Major Banks become insolvent, and close down to prevent depositors accessing the cash. This is the worst phase, but will not linger on for more than a month or two.

3) US/UK/Japan will print away to recapitalize banks, creating a few 100 Trillions of base money.
ECB solicits open bids for buying gold in the open market to determine the real price of gold. The new price recapitalizes ECB to many times the amount of existing Euro supply. Using the extra Euros it recapitalizes the European banks.

4) Banks reopen. Due to the excessive printing in US/UK/Japan, these currencies go into hyperinflation. Euro emerges as the winner, along with other currencies that peg themselves with the Euro. Possibly China will do the same.

5) After a few months US, in which the USD becomes worthless, and thereby the debt is evaporated, introduces a new currency pegged to the Euro, with Gold as the Reserve.

6) International transactions happen in individual currencies many of them pegged to Euro, with Gold as reserves. Probably Quarterly/Annual balancing of BOP using gold.

I would think Euro and Bitcoins will be the best currencies during the crisis. Bitcoins might be even better.

KindofBlue said...

Dante Eu

Here's one back at ya:

"I saw a real fine girl at the market place
She had a nice way of walkin'
and a real fine face
A voice like a MAN!
I don't understand!
I'm sorry Jake, but it's my mistake!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hySZSpBHgsY

Anonymous said...

Polly Metallic said...
“I don't know why anyone would necessarily want to trade an ounce of gold for 10,000 oz of silver any more than they would trade for 100,000 oz of copper or 500,000 oz of tin.”

Maybe because silver is 50x easier to transport and store under the scenario above? You know the same asymmetrically advantage in terms of portability that $50K/oz freegold has over >100 GSR ‘just a commodity’ silver has. On one hand I need a pick-up truck on the other hand I need a fleet of big rigs.

I think your facts regarding how much silver is still around based on current consumption rates/prices is shall we say , a wee bit out of date. In fact it’s hard to find any critical element that has anything close to this life span at ‘current’ consumption rates and prices.

Add to this fact that mankind’s Energy Return On Investment is getting worse and worse. The very same energy being used to mine ever lower grades ore for simply must have elements.

Could there be a ‘crash’ in silver relative to gold post Freegold? I sure hope so, in fact I’m counting on it. Which is why I also own gold.

Dante_Eu said...

@KindofBlue:

Nice one! :-)

Anonymous said...

Indenture said...
spaul: "The three most important things in investing are diversity, diversity and diversity." I personally do not enjoy investing. If that is your thing, cool. I wish you luck in your attempt to time the market.

I’m just playing ratios among a diverse balance of physical assets. The key right now is being outside the system (ie Cyprus). Can you perfectly time tops and bottoms in these ratios? Heck no, anyone that says they can is liar. But if you run the math you will do better over the long haul than remaining 100% in one asset type alone come hell or high water. In fact if you look back that ‘never’ works ‘ever’.

Basically you look at the past and run various ratio strategies from past positions forward to get general sense of when various assets are out of whack relative for others. Important safety tip poopjim, million/1 silver is out of whack, just saying.

The fact that this works tells me that I’m not the only one attempting to rebalance thus acting as a brake and spur for all assets types. This is why gold can’t go to moon because it’s not the only dog in town that can hunt. After all people need to eat and you can’t eat gold. That’s why God also created farmland in addition to gold.

Flore said...

The text on Jsmineset.."blatant falsifications".. has been written by..BELGIAN

Roacheforque said...

Anand,
Good synopsis above, and ...

"After a few months US, in which the USD becomes worthless, and thereby the debt is evaporated, introduces a new currency pegged to the Euro, with Gold as the Reserve."

This will be the "Amero" (if not in name, certainly by design) as you have just described Mundell's architecture of the Amero.

I know. It's funny, and it's been disparaged here befoe, but don't you find the "TROIKA" to represent strange bedfellows in a political world where the Euro supposedly hates the dollar??

Old Europe and New Amerika's gold will be pooled to match the reserve status of the massively gaining emerging colonies (oh sorry, I meant "economies") reserves, such that a "balance" of power can be struck.

Remember, when we look at the "price" of gold we should consider the "cost" of change. Not all costs and prices are monetary, such as the price of freedom or the cost of Democracy. Some debts are paid in blood.

The object is to prevent war, and the freegold outcome SHOULD work as planned to do so, though again, we can never see behind the curtain until it is pulled back for all to see.

Such is the future. Only time will "tell".

This we grasp from the flower of understanding.

Roacheforque said...

From Another ...
I think, many persons never gained the understanding that the American gold is kept by the "Treasury", not the maker of your money, "The Federal Reserve". It is there for good reason, as the present world currency system is not a function of American law! If the US were to place gold in the hands of the US/CB as reserves for the dollar, the BIS could claim it! It is, as a point of contention and of no real use. I think not a war would come of this claim, if it should happen! As the world currencies are now, a "new dollar" would be needed if gold were used as reserves!

**Who does BIS really represent?

"old world, gold economy, as viewed thru modern eyes" or " way to move from US$ without war".

MnMark said...

On JSinclair's site, CIGA Patrick writes: The entire financial industry doesn’t represent the economy and its over productive debt load any more. That’s why the Fed has to falsify financial industry paper gold to hide the evolving drama.

I keep seeing these gold-friendly financial writers asserting that the Fed or the government is intervening in the paper gold market. Just once I'd like to see some evidence of that instead of bald assertions. It strikes me as flimsy and the kind of thing hucksters and tin-foil types talk about. If you have evidence of it, let's see it. Otherwise you're just pulling this stuff out of your ass. Anybody can "blame it on the Fed." That's loser talk.

M said...

@ spaul

"That’s why God also created farmland in addition to gold."

^Farmland is the favorite asset of the "anything but gold" crew. What do random investors know about farming ? Nothing. Does the "anything but gold" crew not realize that farmers have had access to the same easy money as everyone else over the last 30 years, especially the last 10 ? Farmers have been bidding out eachother on land and expansion through debt just as bad if not worse then anyone else. I should know, my family is in the business. Last time I checked, 80 acres of land sold for $75,000 an acre in my families area. An acre of land in the area rents for about $450 a year. Do the math, the return is below the rate of inflation without even accounting for property taxes. An "investment" that costs you money. Go figure..

Polly Metallic said...

spaul67

"I think your facts regarding how much silver is still around based on current consumption rates/prices is shall we say , a wee bit out of date. In fact it’s hard to find any critical element that has anything close to this life span at ‘current’ consumption rates and prices."

I used to lean more toward the current "facts" (propaganda?) about silver but it doesn't appear to hold up. Many more mines have opened in the last few years and silver is a byproduct of other metals. I presented this case to a friend who was undecided about silver and after a great deal of study he got back to me and said, "You know, you were right. Silver is relatively common and plentiful." He bought gold instead.

KindofBlue said...

MnMark

They rig LIBOR, but would never consider manipulating the gold price? And didn't Greenspan say that "CBs are prepared to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise"?

I don't mean to speak for FOFOA, but I think his point is that in the end it's irrelevant to the future price of gold and freegold.

Every corporate board room is a conspiracy of sorts (some legal, some not) and to think that where billion dollar cash flows are concerned that no one might be trying to manipulate the outcome in a favorable manner is what I'd find unbelievable.

Peace.

Dante_Eu said...

@Wil:

Looking at the $PoG is like looking at the direct, diametrical opposite of physical gold.
It reflects the "western minds" reaction to the paper game, even while the physical markets are screaming "shortages, shortages".


Yes, I agree completely. However, the public $PoG is the only price we mere mortals have access to. No doubt there are shenanigans behind it, but how much, we can only speculate.

This is how I see it:

The boxer has been knocked out and is down for the count. He is on his knees and is preparing to stand up and fight. Will he stand up and fight? Or will he fall back to the ground followed by the judge waving with his hands and declaring game over?

All the while the judge goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,.....

Also the boxer is bleeding. At any given time, the team of physicians could declare game over.

Something like this: Down for the count

Anonymous said...

M,
Re: farmland as investment, well said! From the perspective of a saver rather than an investor, you might want to own (and live on) productive land simply as a means of providing some degree of self-sustenance and independence from having to have all your needs met via the money system, though you will always have to have some way to generate enough money to pay the tax man. Depending on land quality and the amount of time and work you are willing to put into it, you can accomplish a lot on a single acre. Eliot Coleman claims that a well-run small farm of 5 acres can produce enough to make a livelihood. ("The New Organic Grower.") Of course, that's a full-time job.

Also, people's images of quality farmland are dominated by the types of land suitable for industrial scale farming. The new permaculture design ideas of "food forests" open up other possibliities, with the result that, instead of paying premiums for good "farmland," you can buy cheaper land (with a lower tax burden). However, you have to know what you are doing (or pay someone who does). In any event, I agree that people should think through the reflexive view of farmland as an "investment." Just because it's tangible property doesn't mean it's going to really be an asset and help you.

Roacheforque said...

MinMark,
Your point is well taken. There have been so many incidental puzzle pieces that seem to fit together into this "manipulation puzzle" that we sometimes take it for granted.

But since the FED is factually buyng fraudulent mortgage paper at bubble asset valuations to preserve the balance sheet debt of it's member banks, the TBTFs, it's not much of a stretch to deduce that they are part of a gold price control mechanism to further that end, that being the current flow of $debt satisfaction even at today's margins. It seems to me the last play in the FIAT handbook.

That could all be upset if gold dethrones the dollar, and then US goods price hyperinflation "evaporates" (credit Anand) US dollar debt. Since that is the only exit the FED really has (why no one can determine, nor hear them admit it) it is acceptable to the ROW vs. USA, and for the BIS.

But I'm all ears for any other plausible explanation of the sudden, massive and spontaneous dumping of paper gold.

Roacheforque said...

And to coninue from that final play, physical is needed to replenish these paper warehouse pukes and prevent the "screaming Giant" scenario (which may have already just been "heard" by Giants).

To the extent that investors truly believe their physical gold is "losing value" IT IS in dollar paper terms (that is, your need for dollars in the USA still governs its immediate redemption value in the here and now).

There is a stated "strong dollar" policy for Treasury and ESF. If this isn't part of it, along with interest rates, direct bond monitization, you name it, what is?

Weaker hands will cough up physical over fear of further "immediate redemption loss" (some of FOFOAs earlier posts explored the time element brilliantly by the way).

And this allows for continuation of the subject status quo.

But look at all those US buyers of gold in a record day. They hold up the paper illusion now only to further the ends of Freegold.

It eats itself, this paper market. Nothing it can do now, no way it turns, is sustainable.

Roacheforque said...

... in in summation, at risk of belaboring the obvious, it is certainly not JUST the Fed that manintains the systemic dollar reserve status quo. In global corporatism there is great cooperation amongst entities that must cooperate for Fascism to correctly function.

It is after all, a polite marriage between the private and public, corporate and government, regulators, and the selectively regulated, raters and the selectively rated, judicial and selectively judged--a grand spectacle indeed, fit for the finest of virtual collouseums.

Life is a Caberet my friends.

Such we learn from the flower of understanding. Long Live FREEGOLD and it's inherent, and natural, "strong gold policy".

Michael dV said...

Sir T
I have started a permaculture 'farm' on my 3/4 acre in Las Vegas. I have water but the soil' have sand , rock and no nutrients. We shall see if I am able to make that work over the next few years. I planted nitrogen fixing trees and sunflowers to break up the soil.
I'd love to get a few truck loads of mulched wood for a start.
also am doing raised beds for tomatoes and a few other quick crops.

Anonymous said...

@ M

I think your numbers regarding farmland are off by a decimal point?

$75,000/80 = $938/Acre is low but I don’t know how productive the land is or what it will grow where you live?

But if this land gets you $450/Acre then how can you go wrong. You basically get your capital back in two years? I think you mean $45/Acre which is a PE of about 20 which is about right. PE of 2 is no brainer no matter what you are buying.

Our farmland is now 4x the price it was just fifteen years ago with corresponding increases in rent checks, all driven in lock step with food prices. Almost as good as gold only it 'also' produces cash flow. Extra credit for where I have been putting that cash flow?

Now could food prices collapse and take the value of farmland with it? My guess is that hyper-inflation hits and some form of nationalization happens or price controls. It happened during in the led up to the French Revolution. A perfect example of governments doing counterproductive things in crises.

Franco said...

spaul67:

I also thought "$75,000/80 = too cheap". After re-reading, it's $75k PER ACRE, which is absurd. In Argentina you can actually buy land for $1000/acre.

byiamBYoung said...

We recently bought arable land in eastern NC for about $1700.00 an acre. Location, location, location.

Michael H said...

ForLiberty,

Does anyone else know of a great californian gold dealer? I don't live in cali, but those prices were unmatched. Again, help will be much appreciated

Not sure if this has been answered, but have you tried CNI?

http://www.golddealer.com/

M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fnord88 said...

Just wondering what freegolds interpretation of Europe's carbon policy is? Europe is pushing especially hard on low emission and electric vehicles, do not want to have to spend gold for oil maybe?

Nick said...

Spaul,

Good Thoughts

Just my take, but it seems that one can be part of the '100% All Inn' and own/hold silver, dollars, euro as well, as part of a short term expenditures strategy. As FO/FO/A have written before, gold is specifically for 'savings' which wouldn't include anything set aside for what might indeed be quite a nasty reset period of unknown length.

M said...

@ Spaul

Its 75,000 per acre for 80 acres. 6 million dollars.

Here is a link for 79 acres asking 6.8 million dollars in the same area.

http://www.bcfarmandranch.com/index.cfm?method=property.propertydrilldown&propertyid=57b3be33-be9c-b0f2-a81c-7f58518af332

^And I didn't just say that in my other post. 80 acres in the area did sell for that price. I just did a search for a comparison and the comparo happened to be 79 acres. Don't put too much worth on the dairy facility in that link. Its not worth much.

Anonymous said...

Fed's balance sheet up 66B this week to 3.337T

But that's not what's interesting. The balance sheet now has a separate entry for unamortized premiums on securities held outright and foreign currency denominated assets. They used to be lumped in together with other flotsam under Other Fed Assets.

Unamortized DISCOUNTS on securities held outright used to be lumped in with Other liabilities and capital. As of now it's a paltry 1.6B. Why give it it's own line? Why now all of a sudden?

Ben said in his 2002 speech he would buy foreign securities. Methinks we might get a surprise this Fed meeting.

Reality Show said...

Hey Milamber, glad you liked my chart. Update

Yes I'd like to see the series from the inception of GLD but unfortunately I have to input the data by hand and I don't have the time.
Today was the 19th PINK trading day of 2013, where GLD inventory falls but the PM Fix rises, unbeknownst to the mainstream financial media it would appear.

Tommy2Tone said...

"http://www.bcfarmandranch.com/index.cfm?method=property.propertydrilldown&propertyid=57b3be33-be9c-b0f2-a81c-7f58518af332"

THAT is nuckin futs!

MatrixSentry said...

Luke,

I have no idea whether GTU will survive the transition. I certainly would not count it or invest in it if I had a chance to obtain physical in hand. I think it definitely has a better chance of survival than PHYS. Gold can leave PHYS as a redemption and cannot leave GTU unless the trust is dissolved.

Anonymous said...

@Polly Metallic said...

“Many more mines have opened in the last few years and silver is a byproduct of other metals.”

http://periodictable.com/Properties/A/CrustAbundance.an.log.html

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/world/silver/silver.html

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/09-2/Cube%20of%20Gold_1.jpg

So combining all these sources plus a few more minor ones I calculate the GSR to be;

Earth Start 25
Earth Remaining 18
Mining Rate 11
Above Ground Stock 5


I can’t seem to find the 100/1 you are talking about? Remember you also need to reconcile this with increasingly lower EROI facing mankind in the near future. The silver ore grades are getting lower and lower and thus will require increasing expensive energy to bring out of the ground; and yet the above ground stock is not very high and often times in forms that have double or triple the value added of the base metal. Thus by some estimates the ‘monetary’ silver to gold ratio is closer to 1/1 at present prices. Gold on the other hand as has different value added relationship to the base metal and thus as prices go up jewelry gets melted. Do you notice the amount of gold in the form of jewelry out there? Now at $100/oz a few more of those silver tea sets may be melted down into a monetary form of silver but that may only bring the ratio to say 2/1 at best.

As a result monetary forms of silver will large be from a mined source going forward. A source that must use increasingly expensive energy in order to refine lower and lower grade ores. So yes there is still a lot of silver in them thar hills relative to gold but it’s going to be increasingly expensive to get thanks to mankind vaporizing most of the high EROI energy over the last hundred years. The more likely situation is that silver price will experience higher than inflation growth rates over the long haul.

Could there be silver dumps if we hit Freegold. I sure hope so because people like me will ready and willing to buy every ounce in order to reestablish a 50/50 ratio on a fiat basis thereby locking in the Freegold pop. Just in case the TPTB want to go to back stealing wealth from net producers again. Something that can’t happen in Freegold world.

Perhaps you could post links to the data you used to convinced your friend that silver is ‘significantly’ more abundant than gold?

Anonymous said...

@M

No way I would buy farmland at that acre/gold ratio, the ratio is all wrong historically. Best to sell it for gold :)


Anand Srivastava said...

Spaul67
You don't want to look at the absolute volume of gold to silver, then you will not get the correct idea. You want to look at the amount of gold in the market versus the demand and the amount of silver in the market versus the demand.

JR said...

What’s up with Basel?

And no, I am not just referring to the pre-retirement, free kick goalazo of Swiss international footballing star and hometown born, talismatic record scorer for perennial Swiss Super League table topper FC Basel.

Yes, folks, Alexander Frei, the captain of Switzerland’s 2008 Euro cup team and its all time leader in international goals, whose towering image on the huge advertisements hanging from the rafters of Switzerland’s train stations was a perpetual reminder to the host fans in June/July 2008 of the lost promise of their EURO 2008 campaign
after Frei tore his ACL in the first half of the co-host nation's opening match, is retiring.

But even Frei’s retirement will not dull the excitement in this northern town on the border of Germany and France as FC Basel prepares for its Europa league semifinal pairing with reigning Champions League holders Chelsea in its bid to be the first Swiss club to reach a major European final. You can be sure St. Jakob-Park will host a boisterous and ebullient atmosphere as the bebbi hope for a good result next Thursday ahead of the daunting return leg in London at the ‘Bridge a week later!

But this third largest city in Switzerland is not just home to class football, Switzerland’s only port (the Rhine is the lifeblood of the city) and a major situs for the pharmaceutical and chemical industries, indeed, it is also an international monetary hotbed! Why? Well the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) is there. Wikipedia describes the BIS as an international organization of central banks which fosters international monetary and financial cooperation and serves as a bank for central banks. Or as FOFOA has explained, “The BIS…coordinates central bank transfers to facilitate international trade balance. If the BIS stopped functioning, so would international trade.”

Anyway, the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision (BCBS) , is an “independent” organization of “bankers” which "happens" to be located in the BIS whose goal is to encourage convergence toward common approaches and standards by formulating broad supervisory standards and guidelines and recommends statements of best practice in banking supervision.” Surprisingly, despite the fact this is just an independent group of “bankers,” the Central Banks of the world largely follow this “independent” group's recommendations, like 1988’s Basel I and 1994’s Basel II . I wonder if the fact the BCBS apparently leases space in the BIS’s offices has anything to do with the fact that all the Central Banks listen pretty good to what they recommend?

cont.

JR said...

Anyway, enough musing. The BCBS is working on Basel III, their new banking regulations. Last year you may have heard a lot of chatter about banking regulations, gold and Tier One Capital, (ala these proposed US banking regulatory capital rules from last summer), which was in followup to the Basel III capital standards the BCBS issued in 2011. Basel III standards. And then in January of 2013, the BCBS issued the Basel III liquidity standards. Basel III standards

I’m not real big on this stuff because I’m no banker and I watch too much footy either way, but the FT wrote in January:

UBS and Credit Suisse, which dominate the powerful Zurich-based physical gold market, have hiked their charges for holding the metal, according to clients and people familiar with the banks.

The move is an attempt to persuade their biggest clients – including other banks, hedge funds and institutional investors – to take direct ownership of their gold in so-called “allocated” accounts, with the bank simply acting as a custodian.

Under more common “unallocated” gold accounts, depositors’ gold appears on banks’ balance sheets, forcing them to increase their capital reserves. Like their global peers, UBS and Credit Suisse are under regulatory pressure to reduce capital-intensive activities ahead of the introduction of Basel III global banking rules.
People familiar with the banks’ thinking said that the move to raise fees was part of a broader attempt to reduce the size of balance sheets. “When it’s on balance sheet it does create costs,” a person with knowledge of the banks’ strategy said.


Here is a similar take:

Just as with any loan the bank takes in – including household and business deposits – it has to match at least some of that debt with ready cash. Or rather, with reserves held at the central bank. This was always the way, but 2013 sees new regulations – aka Basel III – raise the requirements to try and avoid a repeat of 2007 and all that. Before now, offering unallocated gold at least put bullion onto the bank's balance sheet. But with these new regulatory hassles and thus costs (money unlent is dead money to banks, remember) unallocated gold has suddenly become lose-lose to the banks.

Indeed, as HQLA identified in the Basel III liquidity standards released on January 6, 2013:

Fact is, gold has acted strangely since the January 2013 release of the proposed Basel 3 liquidity regulations. These outlined assets that banks could count as liquid should world markets experience a repeat of 2008. Gold was conspicuously missing from the Basel 3 liquidity list, despite its stellar 2008 performance.

So, as we all know, Freegold is about gold being freed from the fractional reserve banking practice:

The Free in Freegold

Okay, here it is. What you've been waiting for patiently, I presume. This is what gold will be freed from: The fractional reserve banking practice, which is a carryover from the gold standard.

This is the free in Freegold.


So is the BIS trying to drive gold out of the banking system? FRB is what banks do, right? Banks are in effect middlemen who engage in maturity transformation, aka FRB or borrowing short and lending long. So ending the gold lending practice is to in effect “get the gold out of the banking system” – what do you think?

cont.

JR said...

Let us look at what FOFOA wrote above about the banking system’s primary job:

I think it's best to think of the banks' primary job as being that of a middleman, bringing buyers and sellers together, more so than to think of the banks as the direct counterparty their customers. And like banks do maturity transformation in traditional banking, these banks can also do "other kinds of" transformation in their "ongoing counterparty-squaring exercise" which, if you could see it all laid bare, would look like "a vast amorphous mass as only a network of cooperating banks can do best."

So I wonder if anyone can see any connection between the apparent effect of the Basel III regulations described in the above articles – which is seemingly to incentive banks to not want to hold unallocated gold- and what FOFOA described in his above post as a historical second job of the banks:

Underneath this "amorphous mass" the BBs have a second job—managing the flow of physical gold. This flow has incoming and outgoing. Incoming includes supply from refineries, mints, mines and scrap supply as well as any physical gold deposits. Physical deposits are what Ari referred to as "a physical deposit by a silly person or by another corporate entity." ANOTHER put it like this: "In the beginning the CBs didn't sell their own gold. They ( thru third party ) found someone else who had bullion." So physical deposits are essentially someone giving up their allocated in exchange for unallocated (tradable) credits. That's the incoming.

We know a final piece of the A/FOA/FOFOA tale is about the winding up of the gold lending/forward sales, as notably marked by the Washington Agreement in 1999 and gold lease rates have been at best odd ever since.

Is Basel III in effect a continuation of this process? What’s going on here?

So now that I have a headache and must get up from the computer, I'll leave this up to you - what do YOU think of all this?

Nickelsaver said...

Thats very interesting JR

So what you're are saying is that unallocated is being transformed into allocated for the banks at the expensive of paper longs?

Nickelsaver said...

Oh, here's a novel idea. Not just at the expensive of the longs, but also the shorts - when the market switches direction or is made to.

tintin said...

Hi JR,
I think you are about to unlock a big mystery, but this rusty mind is too rusty now, so I will be checking back here to see your ne. I can't wait.

By the way great to see you back.
I was wondering about you.

tintin said...

Hi Nicklesaver,
You mean the unallocated longs instead of converting to allocated just dumped causing the slump?

Or, the banks with big unallocated "gold" dumped their "coat checking room ticket" not backed by their "coats"?

tintin said...

local dealer reported significant jump in gold sales in the last few days. Delivery is 4 weeks.

Bjorn said...

WB JR! Thats what I like to see when I come to the blog in the morning; JR back in stellar form! :-)

ein anderer said...

Local dealer reported that wholesome dealers in Germany are not able anymore to sell silver coins.

ampmfix said...

Thanks for the great comment JR, I was missing your inputs. If the path to Freegold is composed of many little steps, this certainly looks like one to me.
I imagine you will not miss the Bayern-Barça and Borussia-R. Madrid next week !!! I will be in Germany but not at a stadium... Hotel room + some beers...

ein anderer said...

@JR
HQLA link is broken.
Interesting in this regard.
Also.

sean said...

It sounds like Basel III would have the effect of speeding up the game of "musical chairs"... by removing some of the chairs from the game.
Except that implementation of Basel III is now delayed until 2019...

Unknown said...

Great info, JR, way to go!

In my initial read of the latest revisions, I am missing where (FT?) "Gold was conspicuously missing from the Basel 3 liquidity list, despite its stellar 2008 performance."

In fact, The definition of high quality liquid assets (HQLA) from the Basel PDF, Summary Description of the LCR are defined thus::
HQLA are comprised of Level 1 and Level 2 assets. Level 1 assets generally include cash, central bank reserves, and certain marketable securities backed by sovereigns and central banks, among others.

I read/take "central bank reserves" as a line item to include physical gold. Allocated vs. unallocated may be a distinction already treated here, but this is the definition of high quality liquid assets as regards the liquidity coverage ratio (LCR).

So I simply do not see where gold has gone missing from the definition. The recent CHANGES to the LCR do not specifically omit or negate gold, however with reference to "central bank reserves" (wherein gold resides) the interesting change is:
"Central bank reserves
- Clarify language to confirm that supervisors have national discretion to include or exclude required central bank reserves (as well as overnight and certain term deposits) as HQLA as they consider appropriate."

Unknown said...

Now this is interesting. But my read is that CBs may withhold gold from the satisfaction of liquidity coverage ratios at their discretion.

I do find this in keeping with the transition from a dollar reserve system to freegold.

In essence, Dasel expects the next derivatives crisis to obviously call into question the value of dollar denominated assets, i.e. a "dollar crisis" of credibility vs. volume.

In 2008 the FED pumped massive liquidity into global markets to satisfy the devaluation of a dollar denominated global credit bubble to offset this massive debt contraction.

What they are trying to do is manage liquidity as dollar denominated debt contracts again, due to exchange value support being withdrawn internationally. Thus the FED will not be senselessly pumping worthless paper into it's own paper's hyper-devaluation.

I also read this as CB discretion to WITHHOLD gold (i.e. certain reserves) in the satisfaction of liquidity requirements, i.e. no gold will be used to support the death of the dollar.

Now for the US dollar faction to respond to this negatively, and have the faction short sell the piss out of paper gold makes perfect sense to me.

But for the rest of the world, they can breathe a sigh of relief that their gold is not being "claimed by the BIS" to satisfy LCR as a HQLA.

Do you not see how this is oerfectly in keeping with my most recent sequence of comments?

Or am I blinded by my own theoretical bias?

I leave it to the wisdom of this venerable council to divine further or otherwise add to / refute my initial take on these recent intelligences, while I remove to convene / consult further the wisdom of the flower of understanding.

ein anderer said...

Table: Transition phase 2013-2019 to Basel III.
O gosh, and that’s high end science too. But it shows that Basel III does not destroy all risks (last paragraph).

ein anderer said...

Nice (german) table of the Federal Ministry of Finance.

Edwardo said...

I like where you seem to be headed, JR. As an adjunct to the general thrust of this discussion, or at least what I take it to be, I think we are seeing unallocated become allocated via the GLD ETF. We do not know where the gold that is leaving GLD has gone or is going, but it is reasonable to speculate that some portion, perhaps most or all of the 200+ tons of physical that has left the fund over the last four months, has, by any reasonable account, become allocated gold and is now not functioning as part of what remains of the fractional (paper) gold system.

The move toward a physical only market is a process to be sure, and while the very end may occur in what seems like no time, the terminal stage of the fractional gold game has been tediously attenuated.

Anonymous said...

@ anand srivastava said...

“You don't want to look at the absolute volume of gold to silver, then you will not get the correct idea. You want to look at the amount of gold in the market versus the demand and the amount of silver in the market versus the demand.”

I agree, that is why the price is at 50 to 1 right now, supply vs. demand. Silver is also unique in that it has a significant industrial demand along with a significant portion of the new supply which is booked as just a by-product of other industrial metals like lead and zinc.

So if industrial demand goes down so does the need to refine the primary metals associated with silver as well, lowering silver production in lock step.

The reason more gold is listed as the primary product of most gold mining is entirely due to its price. If silver where at $1500/oz you can bet that all those primary lead and zinc mines would just be relabeled as primary silver mines with lead and zinc being the by-product. Same mine different profit structure.

What I think will be interesting will be how surplus oil priced in surplus gold works out? It is this ratio that is key to the international trade flows of both. It takes a lot of oil to extract both gold ‘&’ silver.

So let’s say that we go from 15 Barrels/oz of Gold to 200 Barrels/oz of Gold and yet due to lower and lower ore grades it takes more than 200 Barrels to mine that ‘next’ ounce of gold? Or at a 50/1 ratio for silver it takes more than 4 Barrels per oz of silver?

I wonder if anyone has done a calculation on how much energy it takes to produce various commodities? In I believe last month’s National Geographic they looked at the EROI of various energy sources, it would be interesting to see this for key materials as well.

If gold prices oil and oil/energy prices everything else then this relationship could be key in determining gold’s relative value to all lesser SoV like silver. Regardless something along these lines sounds like a better way to price the worlds remaining resources than what we have going on right now based on various ponzi schemes revolving around fiat as a SoV.

Knotty Pine said...

@Sean

Looks like implementation of Basel 111 will be an ongoing process.

Anonymous said...

@JR

Okay so we have the BIS operating as the Central Bank of Central Banks that clears both paper and gold for world trade. This is likely where the price for physical gold delivery among giants is discovered. Maybe it takes 20 oz of paper gold to get 1 oz of giant gold sent to your doorstep? Anyway, world trade itself is composed of all kinds of goods and services that in turn having varying degrees of ‘monetary’ like MoE and SoV functions though far below that of gold (ie the focal point). For example oil, silver, copper, steel, wheat, etc.

I seem to recall that the Ukraine and Libya entered into a batter arrangement of wheat for oil a few years ago? So apparently oil and wheat can’t flow in the same direction either jus t like gold.

I agree with JR, the two most important parts of Freegold is Free and Gold. I keep envisioning a trade clearing system in which the ‘price’ of any commodity is expressed in oz of gold. From that relationship, the relative trade of wheat for oil can also be determined. The free flow of physical gold then balances the relative cost of production of particular goods and services within a currency zone will also incorporating any ponzi like games various countries may attempt with their fiat (MoE).
Some nations have more wheat, others more oil, still other surplus silver, airplanes, cars, etc. the balance is settled in gold or some other commodity directly (ie oil for wheat) but always at a floating gold referenced price. This will also be true for fiat but only as a ‘short’ term SoV and not at ridiculous levels accumulation levels vs. the overall trade flow.

It just seems too elegant ‘not’ to be the solution for the global monetary system?
Perhaps the BIS forces the gold to physically move between currency zones when a currency zones account gets beyond the reserve it holds at the BIS? At which point the currency zone is also ‘required’ to exchange the gold at market rates for fiat, thus lowering the price of gold in one currency zone in raising it in the other. The key as JR said is freeing gold as a ‘reserve’ asset of the banking system and allowing it to become a fertile component of trade clearing. One big continuous global Medieval Fair with the BIS as the ones running the Fair?

The key issue in my mind is that allowing gold to exist as a SoV ‘outside’ the wealth stealing effects of the State doesn’t seem to be in the States’ immediate best interest? Especially given the level of crony-capitalism and government dependence the world over. How do we get from point A to point B under the present situation?

Great overview of Crony Capitalism BTW;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOWnnEphjI&feature=player_embedded

My hope is that in order to restore world trade they won’t have a choice because the serious imbalances associated within the existing monetary system only seem to be getting worse with no end in sight but a full on collapse. A collapse brought about by a complete breakdown of the true price discovery mechanism within and between nations for all things, gold or otherwise. I short, even though Freegold may be an obvious solution getting to Freegold may not be all that fun.

In addition if the level/rate of social disruption gets to high it may cause the world to go into all kinds of bad ends in its attempt to get to Freegold (ie the lead up to WW2) with the rise of demagogues that feed off of the suffering and fear of the masses.

Clearly the world needs to get together and start talking more honestly about these issues and come up with a coordinated plan of getting mankind from point A to point B as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Sam said...

@Spaul67

Regarding the energy cost of commodities there is a school of thought that after a freegold transition there will be little need for most nations to continue to pull gold out of the ground at all. In the future poker game of global monetary policy the chips can be worth whatever they need to be worth to balance trade. Adding more chips isn't necessary.

Anonymous said...

OMG, I just saw you know what.

Anonymous said...

You guys are just going to be impossible now.

One Bad Adder said...

Nice lines (again!) spaul67 ...and a hearty welcome back JR.
The previously alluded to contrived "wriggle-room" in $IRX is diminishing, and this current grinding south MAY WELL be the Systemic "last hurrah" I've been patiently awaiting.

We watch!

One Bad Adder said...

...meanwhile, the digital "FreeCurrency" BitCoin is consolidating @ $100 odd.
I'm thinking a Bitcoin-esque plaform might well be an appropriate method of trading FreeGold in the future. How? ...I'm not sure but it certainly has all those "here-n-now" hallmarks IMHO (albeit a bit ricketty at present)

Anonymous said...

Called my LCS to get the premiums just out of curiosity. They are completely sold out of Silver and Gold. I asked him what the premiums were prior to selling out, and he said they wre the same as usual (few dollars for Silver and about 5% for Gold).

As for APMEX, I bought Gold on Monday, it shipped on Tuesday, and arrived on Friday. Probably the fastest delivery I've ever had from them.

KindofBlue said...

Sinclair interview at KWN today:

"The truth is that when we take out these futures markets on a failure, gold is going to $50,000. Not $3,500. $50,000. We are in the midst of a failure right here, right now. That’s what this is all about. This takedown has been the ultimate can-kick."

One Bad Adder said...

When viewing $PoG as the "currency" it really is, the recent rout can be seen as simply re-establishing it's true alignment.
Curiously, the requirement to do so bodes well for we FreeGolders sooner rather than later provided the "gameplan" is to love 'ol Buck to death.

Dante_Eu said...

Well, don't want to brag or something like that but a week ago I wrote:

"Events in front of us will make Freegold selfexplanatory. In fact, people will try to explain it to you! Now, that is going to be some weird stuff... :-)"

It seems to me that goldbugs have capitulated. That's a good thing.

Now, if only silverbugs would do the same thing...

Also, great to see comments JR-style again! ;-)

tintin said...

GLD lost 9 tons, inventory now at 1123tons.

Sam said...

@Dante Eu

It will be a little tough after the transition to bite our lips and listen to zero hedgers explain freegold to everyone and how they knew it all along. My favorite part about this blog is that our theory comes from the analysis of the writings of an obvious insider from over a decade ago. Very few claim to know something others don't based on their personal brilliance or intuition. Anyone can dream up possible scenarios or conspiracies. To find the truth takes a lot more work and a lot less dreaming.

byiamBYoung said...

Can anything stop the drain on GLD at this point?

At what point do we stop looking for pukes, and start witnessing dry heaves?

Edwardo said...

GLD lost 9 tons, inventory now at 1123tons.

9.93 tons to be precise. To put recent activity in better perspective, in the last seven trading days the GLD drainage system has had 60.5 tons removed from the "fund."

Dante_Eu said...

@Sam:

Agree. Not only do our theory stands on the ground of those 2 insiders who wrote over a decade ago but on a framework laid out by our gracious host. Without whom most of us would not have a clue what a heck FOA, and specially ANOTHER, wrote about.

At last but not least, all the commenters that have helped (big time) along the Trail.

Totara said...

@spaul67

The energy required for producing any item of value is an aspect of economics that, in my opinion, is too often neglected. Almost every commodity requires a certain amount of fossil fuel to produce; so in a sense, these commodities can be thought of as representing an equivalent amount of 'virtual oil'.

One of the people who discusses EROEI in the context of silver is Steve St Angelo. You might enjoy some of his articles.

M said...

@ Sam

ZeroHedge has run FOFOA before and it was quite a spectacle. I bet there is some ZH insiders that are Freegolders.

MatrixSentry said...

Today:

(9.93)(2000) = 19,860 lbs

(19,860)(16) = 317,760 oz.

317,760/400 = 794.4 (400 oz bars) gone from GLD


Last 7 days:

4840 (400 oz bars) gone from GLD and delivered to _______?


Since Jan 1, 2013:

19,280 (400 oz bars) gone from GLD and flowing into a river of physical heading ________?

That is one Helluva a coat closet!


From VTC Tweet:

Compared with January 1, 2013, gold is down 17.7% and GLD inventory down 16.9%. Silver down 23.8% and SLV inventory *up* 3.6%

It's just the usual arbitrage. Nothing to see here. Move on, folks. VtC is just an idiot who has no clue about the markets.


No idiot there. Lets see: the believers in arbitrage as the explanation are at a loss to explain SLV gaining bullion. When I asked Joe Yasinski to explain he responded with this:

@JoeYasinski: @matrixsentry Who knows, fewer people liquidating SLV relative to spot? You shouldnt use circumstantial evidence as defining proof

So this man's support for arbitrage is "who knows" and I shouldn't use circumstantial evidence as defining proof. I don't want proof, I want a functioning theory. So I wonder where Joe thinks the gold is? Back into the vaults of the bullion banks where it simply sits? Sorry Joe, "who knows" support of your theory flunks. I'll stick with the coat closet theory.

Unknown said...

It eats itself, this paper market, no?

Oh well ... off to the CABERET !!

M said...

@ MatrixSentry

"19,280 (400 oz bars) gone from GLD and flowing into a river of physical heading...."

Diehard 3, Bruce Willis has this under control.

Sam said...

@M

Freegold bitchez!!!

Motley Fool said...

grumps

Since my view is based on my own understanding, and not guidance from some authority figure, this changes nothing.

In other words we will be at the same level of impossibility as before. :P

TF

ein anderer said...

@Dante:
3:58 PM +1 !

@all FG critics:
Ponzi is Ponzi. There was never a Ponzi Scheme which survived. They all collapsed. Now: What can be more Ponzi than this? And what, do you think, will the wealthy do as soon this biggest Ponzi scheme the world has ever seen has collapsed? Frightened to death and yet invent the next Ponzi scheme? Oh boy. You don’t count on the human psychology.
So let’s enjoy our popcorn. And take care of our families.

ein anderer said...

And don’t forget if you’r on your bike, put on your light -- of Gold! There are some few coins out here and there, they say :D

ampmfix said...

It seems to me that many of the interesting physical gold advocates (Sinclair, Rickards, Fekete and others) are slowly converging on the same point.
http://thedailybell.com/29007/Antal-Fekete-Who-Said-the-Hydra-Would-Take-It-Lying-Down

Beer Holiday said...

It's as if gold is a focal point :-)

tintin said...

Jim Sinclair said this: For a great deal of what the Free-Golders think, they are right.

Bjorn said...

@Dante

You´ve been on a roll lately. :-) Brag away by all means. I have half of my roots in Tornedalen so I did sputter some coffe at your "för lite procent" comment. Brilliant!

Dante_Eu said...

The thing gold- and silver bugs now need to understand is that US$ have already hyperinflated.

US only needs to declare force majeure. And then check what's left in Fort Knox.

I'm 100% sure there's no silver there. :-)

Anonymous said...

He agrees with the massive revaluation due to paper gold default, but I'm sure he sees the standing model of FG after the event as a nonstarter. A new fractional system will eventually evolve after much pain, a rebooted system under the guidance of the BRICS.

I've been reading about this "single entry point" approach to resolution of a SIFI by the FDIC. These academics don't realize that these SIFI's can't be ringfenced from the system. If one goes down they all go down. That's why BoA stock was stick-saved from going under $5 last year.

MatrixSentry said...

Sinclair is going to give his CIGAs whiplash. That is a pretty big jump from 3500 to 50,000. Martin Armstrong is quick to respond that the gold whackos are doing what they do best with that prediction. Funny, MA is likely going to be proven right for a time and then he will be be proven spectacularly wrong all at once. He somehow thinks that the USG is going to destroy the global economy and the USD will maintain value the whole time.

Of course MA will claim he was correct as Freegold emerges. He will remind everyone how he was bullish on gold long term as he was heckling the gold bugs and calling for a crash in prices. Then he will roll out his computer that of course will have predicted the onset of Freegold, to the day naturally.

Martin puts out enough solid material, especially the historical stuff, to mask the utter bullshit of the computer and its predictions. I fell for it for some time. He has taken a solid foundation in cycle theory and has made a marketing machine to serve Martin Armstrong.

He is a gloom and doom deflationist when you strip away everything. Government is going to rape, pillage, and steal all the wealth. In doing so they will crash the entire global economy. There you go, no hyperinflation. Government will not hyperinflate when they can steal it from you, and in doing so preserve the value of the currency unit.

farmersteveg said...

I believe that FOFOA recently suggested that as the paper price of gold began its collapse, us shrimps might be able to still buy physical as low as $1,200/oz. Based on what we have witnessed in the last week or so, anyone have an opinion now ? (I'm skeptical there would be any available at that price.)

MatrixSentry said...

Since we are getting used to to thinking in terms of tonnage of gold on the move, thought I would pass along the Rule of 32,150, courtesy of FOFOA.

Tonnes quoted are metric. To convert, just multiply by 32,150 to get troy ounces. Then divide by 400 to get number of LGD bars.

(9.93)(32,150)/400 = 798 LGD bars.

I tonne is usually 1 wooden pallet or bars.

All of my gold would comprise a single LGD bar. It certainly isn't difficult for me to imagine some other ants out there with 2 LGD bars, all in unallocated gold. So 400 or so of these ants get a clue and request allocation. That really isn't that big of deal right? That would be a trickle of flow really. Very big deal when you add the trickle to the existing flow demand and minimum reserves to allocated to support it.

KindofBlue said...

MatrixSentry

Well put, simular story.

I like Sinclair -- some are hard on him -- but he comes from a trading background which is just another way up the mountain. Most here, myself included, could hardly tie his shoes in that regard.

FOFOA's contribution was to come across A/FOA's writings and realize (pardon me) that he was holding solid gold. Then FOFOA carried the thinking, refining the insights to powerful, logical conclusions. FOFOA's musings are what allowed me to turn key corners to get a handle on the money concept.

Oddly enough, I feel I was already most of the way there, but only in an intuitive sense as most all of my concentration was on acquiring physical (I made stock profits '05-'07 and converted to physical during the '08 drop). I think the intuition was fed by a general understanding that the big theme is the erosion of law, contract and trust that has been ongoing during this period.

Well, that's my 2 cents, anyway.

Edwardo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Edwardo said...

+1 MatrixSentry re: MA.

Dante_Eu said...

Open letter to Silverfuturist
----------------------------------------

Dear Joe AKA Silverfuturist,

I have been watching your YouTube channel for over 3 years now. It's been really educational and I am very gratefull for all the hard work you have put in it. In fact, it was your video FOFOA gives a dire silver scenario that pointed me to FOFOA's blog in the first place. For that, I'm eternally gratefull.

Now I thought to give you something back. And in extension your subscribers. It's a simple advice: "Spend currency and save in physical gold". Now, I understand perfectly well that generally, advice is a:

"form of nostalgia;
dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal--
wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts,
and recycling it for more than it's worth."


Nevertheless, that advice stands on solid ground and proven facts, and many here would agree with me on that. I'm pretty sure you know all the arguments why gold and not silver. Like that is no good to hoard stuff one need in ones daily life (high industrial value), that CB's have only physical gold in their vaults, that physical gold highest use ought to be "Store of value par excellence" for the benefit of us all, that the price of physical gold is truly arbitrary and therefore can never be overvalued, that physical gold is in the strongest possible hands, unlike physical silver, Marginal Utility Theory of Value and so on. That what really matters is not under- or above ground stock, extraction cost or some historical, present or future ratio, but the flow. Flow of free floating physical gold. Not free floating physical silver. I think that you know that and I am pretty confident that you could explain that much better than me.

Now, I know that you don't like to talk about your gold vs silver ratio. Like you said, it's like Fight Club:
"You dont talk about your gold vs silver holdings."
With all due respect, I think you are wrong. Why? Simple. Karma.
"Do good things and good things happen to you."

And this would be a good thing. The time is now. Tomorrow it may be too late. And I know that you know this. It's worthwhile, even if it would mean that only 1 out of 10.000 of yours subscribers find this advice usefull.

Take care now and I hope you bring this open letter in one of your upcoming YouTube videos\ Dante_Eu

Anonymous said...

Dante_Eu said...

“that the price of physical gold is truly arbitrary”

But gold’s ‘price’ relative to what?

If gold’s price is relative to say oil and oil is utilized in making various commodities then the commodities will ‘also’ have relationship to gold by definition. Thus silver cannot stay at say a 1,000 GSR ratio for long based on this fact alone, nor can any other substance of value that utilizes whatever gold is ‘priced’ in. Why would one part with gold to buy and oil and then promptly destroy this SoV producing something of a lesser value relative to gold in terms of oil? The answer is they won’t or at least not for long and thus ‘physical’ gold will have a counterbalance and interrelationship with all other ‘physical’ things of value independent of their durability and portability. Something like silver obviously has to a greater degree than say wheat or copper and thus might have a slight premium over other commodities for the same reasons that gold does; thus why silver tends to track gold to an extent within a 10-100 GSR.

So I fully understand the arbitrary value concept especially with digital fiat which has absolutely zero ‘physical’ value that connects it to the real world of stuff and thus energy. That’s the whole problem with using a fiat MoE as a SoV. Yes gold can and likely will attain a value above that of commodities beyond its incremental cost in terms of energy but not at a ridiculous disparity to other lesser SoV. The premium value it attains above its energy cost will be directly related to its ability to facility trade (a neutral global MoE) and as a focal point above all other SoV for the reasons well articulated on this board.

This is not the basic problem with freegold though. The basic problem with freegold is that it effectively neutralizes the theft of wealth enabled by forcing net producers to store their wealth in various fiat ponzi schemes. There is no question in my mind that freegold is the key that will let’s us net producers outside of the jail we all find ourselves in. The question in my mind is what forces our jailers to allow us to go free?

Some Freegold Moses perhaps; “let my people go”.

http://www.wingclips.com/movie-clips/the-ten-commandments/let-my-people-go

Tommy2Tone said...

Spaul67-
I seem to recall you posting for quite a while here and yet, it seems you've read nothing that's been posted. ("The question in my mind is what forces our jailers to allow us to go free?)

So you've found freegold's flaw. Thanks.
Leave us a link to your blog on your way out.

Mark said...

Like many others, I have read this blog for years without commenting. The latest exchange between Dante and spaul67 has prompted me to do so.

I agree with spaul that once Freegold is achieved that other commodities must be priced relative to gold THROUGH oil and energy. Put another way, if the GSR were suddenly 1,000 why would anybody mine for anything BUT gold? Copper, iron, silver, coal, everything else would be abandoned in favour of gold mining, causing severe shortages of utilitarian metals, no? I look forward to other commentators ideas.

Anand Srivastava said...

Why would one part with gold to buy and oil and then promptly destroy this SoV producing something of a lesser value relative to gold in terms of oil?

1) Gold does not get destroyed.
2) Oil is not SoV
3) Gold or Oil cannot be used for making reflective lenses, or photography, or any of the myriad things that silver does.

But gold’s ‘price’ relative to what?
Gold's price is relative to savings, not anything else. More the world saves the higher the value of gold.

If gold’s price is relative to say oil and oil is utilized in making various commodities then the commodities will ‘also’ have relationship to gold by definition.
1) Gold's price is only relative to oil in the present system.
2) Gold is not a commodity.
3) Gold does not have any utility, other than saving value. Hence it's value is based on how much the world saves.

You don't really understand saving and hence gold.

Anand Srivastava said...

Mark
Put another way, if the GSR were suddenly 1,000 why would anybody mine for anything BUT gold?

So you mean to say that people building photocells, or photographic materials, or mirrors, will close shop, and the world will not need those articles.

Yeah that makes sense.

BTW we believe that gold will be so precious that it will not be mined only rarely, because it is safer under the ground.

Anand Srivastava said...

remove the "not" in the last sentence. :-(.

Mark said...

anand - of course the world will still need industrial metals, that is my point precisely. Thus the price of those metals will be bid upward to make mining them profitable.

My question was (and I'm sorry that you seem so offended), why would a mining outfit waste their time extracting silver at $1/oz when they can pull gold out of the ground at $50,000/oz? This is where you lose me.

tEON said...

I suspect mining, which suffers the most from the huge paper PM dislocations, will be the most radically changed - post Freegold.

"why would a mining outfit waste their time extracting silver at $1/oz when they can pull gold out of the ground at $50,000/oz? This is where you lose me. "

Key word 'they'. Who are 'they'?... because I DON'T believe miners will be given keys to the new printing press. They will be Nationalized - probably making private mining for gold the same as shooting the Snowy Owl.

If this paper PM collapse does one thing - it will destroy 90% of mining companies - conveniently less to have to Nationalize... (and the biggies left will welcome it!)

PS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dante_Eu said...

@spaul67:

Short answer: International settlement

You said it your self (with minor difference):

"Yes gold can and likely will attain a value above that of commodities beyond its incremental cost in terms of energy but (not) at a ridiculous disparity to other lesser SoV. The premium value it attains above its energy cost will be directly related to its ability to facility trade (a neutral global MoE) and as a focal point above all other SoV for the reasons well articulated on this board."

Whats the difference between Medium of Exchange (MoE) and Store of value (SoV)? Time. Or time preference. Everything is at some point in time MoE or SoV. Thus, we could argue circular, ad infinitum.

"This is not the basic problem with freegold though. The basic problem with freegold is that it effectively neutralizes the theft of wealth enabled by forcing net producers to store their wealth in various fiat ponzi schemes."

Only if you assume that saving in physical gold is a ponzi scheme. Which brings us at fractal nature of Freegold. It works same at all level (personal, corporate, state, inter-state, planetary, interplanetary etc.) and as far out in time as possible (no time limit). Infinite resolution.

"There is no question in my mind that freegold is the key that will let’s us net producers outside of the jail we all find ourselves in. The question in my mind is what forces our jailers to allow us to go free?"

I think you don't give you self enough credit. You see, "our jailers" can force what we get paid in. But they can't force us what we save in! It is entirely up to us. And, at the end of day, what we save in is what really matters, not what token we exchange in. And there lies the dilemma. :-)

Hope that helps\Dante

Dante_Eu said...

@Mark:

"My question was (and I'm sorry that you seem so offended), why would a mining outfit waste their time extracting silver at $1/oz when they can pull gold out of the ground at $50,000/oz? This is where you lose me."

They would probably not be paid $50k/oz, but much less. The Collective (state) probably will be paid close to $50k/oz.

Today, there are "state of the art" color printers, affordable to almost everyone. Why would anybody do anything BUT print paper currency? Today.

I'm pretty sure there are people, all over the world, who do it and get away with it. :-)

Freegold will be no different in that respect.

PS I'm not easily offended so just shoot. ;-)

milamber said...

@ Mark,

To paraphrase Ender & directly quote Another:

your mines are not what you think they are.

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2008/09/freegold.html?showComment=1222199820000#c844702083774076760

"We watch this new gold market together, yes?"

http://www.usagold.com/goldtrail/archives/another3.html


Milamber

Flore said...

A big hello from Belgian

Gold @ $ 50,000/oz and more !



The one and only reason why the ridiculous low goldprice must remain frozen is to avoid gold's * demonetization * proces. There is not enough fysical gold available at these obscene low prices for the $ trillions of floating debt digits to hide in. The astronomical digit mass must therefore stick to the gold contract market (papergold) for ever. You are forced to trade financial industry gold !



But,...the floating digit masses start to lose their trust in the financial industry's store of wealth function. Because Debt / GDP rockets higher and the entire West is maneuvered into a total catch-22 position. The present London Gold Pool efforts will fail. The old monetary gold dynamic is passé and irreversable.



The main reason why the goldprice rise was stopped @ $ 1920/oz is to set back the evolving demonetization proces of gold. To stop the mistrust in the debt-driven political economy now increasingly dominated by an disproportional financial industry that doesn't represent the Western debt-driven economy anymore.



That's why free-floating-goldprices (freegold) are on their way. The Freegold Value Standard in competion with everything that pretends to be a store of wealth and isn't. The old economic & financial system is failing because of becoming dysfunctional.

No London Gold Pool-bis is going to stop this proces.



The financial industry goldmarket will fail because the evolving 2-tier goldmarket will shift crescendo to physical gold. Plenty of evidence at present.

Anonymous said...

MatrixSentry said...

“He is a gloom and doom deflationist when you strip away everything. Government is going to rape, pillage, and steal all the wealth. In doing so they will crash the entire global economy. There you go, no hyperinflation. Government will not hyperinflate when they can steal it from you, and in doing so preserve the value of the currency unit.”

So you don’t believe the news reports regarding Cyprus? Heck in FED members have said the same thing is on the way for the USA banking system in open now.

How about the idea of consolidating all sources of retirement wealth into one big pension plan now being actively promoted in the USA?

Then we have California saying it needs to increase the ‘mandatory’ pension plan deductions from everyone’s paychecks? Sounds an awful lot like the pay as you SS system only at the state level doesn’t. I don’t remember having the option to elect to not participate in that ponzi scheme either?

Still not convinced? , then how about the increase in medical premiums of generally health young workers with average medical needs 1/20th the cost they are being charged; also soon to be mandatory for all in the USA or pay a tax.

I’m sorry; to this little shrimp net producer anyway, all the above looks like one big tax increase in order to feed an ever expanding ponzi scheme. Thus starving us of the net wealth we need to store away in order be self-sufficient in our own retirement buy gold or any other SoV. The government is clearly going to lock up what wealth we have, dissolve it via inflation, and starve net producers so that we only have enough to survive in order to net produce again the next day arriving at twilight years 100% dependant on stealing from our children and grandchildren.

Of course if you read Daniel Amerman, even buying gold is fools errand given the combined effects of inflation and capital gains taxes.

http://danielamerman.com/articles/GoldTaxes1.htm

In summation, I think it’s foolish to underestimate the governments ability to transfer wealth, however generated or however stored, from net producers to the crony-capitalist that fund them and the parasites (some of which are just as victimized as we may one day be) that keep them in power.

Again what is the opposing force strong enough to overcome this?

My only hope (though I use this word loosely because the pain and danger involved even if successful in the end) is that a collapse of the ponzi scheme above will force a reset because what remains of the net producers, won’t be sufficient, to feed the beast that is ever expanding Statism. Thus out a sense of living to steal another day TPTB will go back to some form of hard money in order to reset net production that their cycle absolutely depends upon anew. The challenge before us is that even once something like Freegold is in place how will we keeping it? This reminds me of what Ben Franklin said to a lady upon exiting the Constitutional Convention on what form of government we were to have, “a republic madam, if you can keep it” – Ben Franklin

Reminds me of another famous quote from the same.
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."- Ben Franklin

I would say we have now well passed this point in all nations, some worse than others.

I fear that this time won’t be any different than the past, other than with more people, less resources, and greater interdependency at global level on our current lifestyle than in any past monetary resets.

It’s much more interesting to read about significant historical events than to be apart of them I would guess.

Dante_Eu said...

@spaul67:

Welcome to the REAL world. What you describe as "unfair" is already reality to big chunk of world population. Including EU.

It reminds me of what FOA said once:
"Americans will learn how much above their means they have been living."

As everyone else you too will learn to live with it.

Knotty Pine said...

@Spaul67

"My only hope (though I use this word loosely because the pain and danger involved even if successful in the end) is that a collapse of the ponzi scheme above will force a reset because what remains of the net producers, won’t be sufficient, to feed the beast that is ever expanding Statism"
I think you underestimate the paradigm shift that this "ponzi collapse" will cause. The key is what the members of the superorganism decide to save in.
Try reading Glimpsing the Hereafter and cheer up!

Archer said...

Spaul67 wrote:

So you don’t believe the news reports regarding Cyprus? Heck in FED members have said the same thing is on the way for the USA banking system in open now.

Which reports? If I believed most of the reports that have been made on financial matters, I would have a most interesting (mis)understanding of what has transpired to date and what I should expect in future.

Let's take the Cypriot gold "story" where many reports, perhaps even a majority of them, seem to assume a gold grab by the Troika is a foregone conclusion. Even when the raw quotes from folks like Draghi are there for all to see and indicate without qualification that the fate of Cypriot gold is in the hands of the Cypriot CB, well, it just can't be accepted as anything but disingenuous where it isn't declaimed as a bald faced lie. In that regard a gold tout outfit like King World News isn't much better than other news outlets that have no vested interest in promoting a given narrative.

Archer said...

The last sentence in my prior post should have read:

In that regard a gold tout outfit like King World News isn't much worse than other news outlets that have no vested interest in promoting a skewed narrative.

Anonymous said...

I think the GSR comes way down before freegold. Silver will be the canary in the coal mine. It will have to run free before gold due to its industrial necessity.

MatrixSentry said...

spaul67,

I can say one thing, I have read this blog and in doing so I have come to see the world quite different than you. Suffice to say the following quote means something to me:

"...hyperinflation is the process of saving debt at all costs, even buying it outright for cash. Deflation is impossible in today's dollar terms because policy will allow the printing of cash, if necessary, to cover every last bit of debt and dumping it on your front lawn! (smile) Worthless dollars, of course, but no deflation in dollar terms!"

I for one see the wisdom and truth there. You as well as Martin Armstrong feel different. That quote is how it ends. Worthless dollars and a total confiscation of wealth for those who choose their store of wealth unwisely. What twists and turns we follow is up for speculation, how it ends is already determined.

Martin sees an end where government somehow allows or imposes deflation in order to save our money. He somehow thinks the government will survive this process and retain the confidence of the people. Our wealth will be confiscated, the economy will collapse, and the people will still see value in the government and its currency? Not likely.

So no, I find little of what you wrote to be compelling. I can find plenty of that over at Martin's blog or any number of other blogs. That stuff makes little sense to me and hasn't for a few years now, sorry.

tEON said...

@Jack Tarragon
I think the GSR comes way down before freegold.

That's an interesting gamble.
If it does... and gold is even more scarce than it is now - what will you trade your Silver for?
Since the upside to Gold in a revaluation is so extreme - you might also wish to consider 'what if you are wrong' and the quantify the 'risk' involved in each decision.
Best of luck with that!

S P said...

I think there's an upper limit to the purchasing power of gold and silver that is based upon how much people value them vis-a-vis currency which is of course vis-a-vis the goods and services that currency can purchase.

Obviously gold and silver aren't as rare as a piece of art that wealthy people pay millions for at an auction. On the other hand, they are rare enough that they are probably undervalued at today's purchasing power.

Still, it's difficult to conceive of a world in which an ounce of gold can buy you the equivalent of a nice home or X large amount of food or gas. It doesn't quite make sense.

Can gold go to 5000 and silver to 500? Easily, in my opinion. But those are just round numbers and it's difficult to see beyond that.

There's no cure for the debt/derivatives bubble, this has been going on since the early 80s at least and 2008 was when oil called all of them out. They can easily default without hyperinflation, the outcome is likely to be similar.

For "shrimps", 99% of the population, there's nothing you can do but hoard hard assets. If you have a house and land you can hoard large stuff and grow food, if you are forced to be nomadic you can hoard portable stuff. Spend the fiat, the system is designed so that you get nowhere saving it. The current world is not going to last, you do have to enjoy whatever you can.

Anonymous said...

MatrixSentry said...

“…..hyperinflation is the process of saving debt at all costs, even buying it outright for cash.”

I agree, but what if debt is saved by using the cash of others, and not by just printing more? That is what Cyprus is screaming at me. At which point institutional debt is saved at the same rate that the shrimp cash is stolen; thus ‘no’ hyper-inflation. The system reduces the money supply via the theft of the common man and prints up more to keep the total supply constant. Now your average Joe is broke and uses what little cash he has to keep food on the table, forget about biding up the price of gold and/or silver. Don’t worry Joe; the government will give you some freshly printed cash so you won’t starve. Change in the overall money supply….. zero…..transfer of wealth from savers to non-savers 100%. Row well and live you net producers.

In addition, a tremendous amount of ‘wealth’ is locked up in all kinds of various pension funds and government IOUs which are all ponzi schemes completely disconnected from the limits of the real world. This wealth can also be locked up, dissolved way and then dribbled out. Having ten million dollars in an account doesn’t mean much if you can only take out $10/day. Don’t spend it all in one place Joe.

….And you know I think they can get away with because if even exceedingly engaged and thoughtful people on this board don’t get the scam above then what hope is there from the average suffering Joe? He’ll probable thank the government the entire way for saving him with wealth they stole from him.

J said...

Spaul67, I have been interested to read your comments here and look forward to hearing more from you. I don't appreciate all of the nuances of what most people here believe, but it's good to hear opinions from people with a broadly compatible view of the way things are and might be.

None of us can KNOW what's going to happen.

said...

S P,

"Still, it's difficult to conceive of a world in which an ounce of gold can buy you the equivalent of a nice home or X large amount of food or gas. It doesn't quite make sense."

At our level it seems crazy to think I could buy a car for 1oz of gold, but I don't see or comprehend the production which the super producers of the world do. They have the opposite problem as us shrimps. To them, they produce so much, that there is nothing the world could ever return to them in terms of real goods which would ever match their production. So that production must flow into gold. So the value of gold will be dictated by how much the world produces. Your problem is your viewpoint.

tEON said...

@S P
"Still, it's difficult to conceive of a world in which an ounce of gold can buy you the equivalent of a nice home or X large amount of food or gas. It doesn't quite make sense."

Why doesn't it quite make sense?
Did it make sense in Wiemar Germany for the Bellboy who bought the Hotel he worked in for an ounce of Gold?

I think there's an upper limit to the purchasing power of gold and silver that is based upon how much people value them vis-a-vis currency which is of course vis-a-vis the goods and services that currency can purchase.

Freegold has less to do with individual people's perception of value (people like yourself) and more to do with International trade. Since we are rapidly reaching the stage where countries are increasingly reluctant to trust each others paper currency (quite logically - why would they trust the USD as a store of value?) So this system must, almost organically, be replaced. Are you suggesting they should use something other than Gold? Let's hear it.

The rise in value of Gold that you are having trouble conceiving is based on a price suppressed by a gargantuan bloated paper market built over the past couple of decades. Once it is 'free' from that constraint - it will 'float' to its true value - one far beyond the capabilities of western thought. My guess is not simply 'north of 55K', but dramatically north...

Anand Srivastava said...

Spaul67

I agree, but what if debt is saved by using the cash of others, and not by just printing more?

So the Base money in US increasing dramatically must be my imagination.

Yes the money in banks can be confiscated, and it will be in Europe. But not the money in US. Why?

Because it is simply easier and more politically correct to print than to confiscate directly. Not that TPB have any qualms about that. They just use the easiest possible solution.

The only solution is to not have money where it can be confiscated. ie in gold.

Anonymous said...

Milamber,
Sorry for the delay in answering you, meatspace requirements prevented me from devoting the cyberspace time to addressing you. The hostility of your post is exactly what I mean by heresy (as is pictures of children crazy glued to walls, or videos of blowing smoke). I have not offered a challenge to Freegold because I have not a particular one to offer. If you are curious about my position it is that despite not being an active participant, I have devoted a material amount of time and effort to try to understand freegold. Phisiologically and psychologically, I am a skeptic, an empiricist and at least attempt to be a rationalist. I believe I am somewhere around or moderately above the median understanding of most commenters here. And that took material time and effort to attain. In answer to your question, "what am I getting at?" is to try to make it further down the trail. Specifically the area I myself want to work on is less the mechanics of freegold, than the inevitability that so many, including our host, have in it. My understanding is more along the lines of it could work, but I am not as convinced it will happen, that it is inevitable. I was convinced the $IMFs system will fail before I ever heard of FG, found this blog looking for what might replace the 'existing system' is what I would have called it, essentially the $IMFs, and I rather hope that FG is the replacement, but I am not as convinced of the inevitability of it.

When I fist came across FOFOA's blog several years ago, I read it to determine if it was true and a useful framework within which to view the monetary and financial world. I was initially (years ago) highly skeptical, and consciously (within my own mind, not in comments) tried to find a false premise or argument. The more I was unable to, the more effort I put into understanding it better. I am rather convinced in the theory, and its ability to function. I am less convinced it is inevitable, or at a minimum it will be the next system attempted. You will find most of my questions around looking for 'evidence' of freegold in current practice (such as the hypothesis giants pay materially above paper price for bulk, thus my thought experiment) or evidence of or mechanics of transition (the disappearance of retail silver question).

FG transition will clearly break the USD, likely the yen and pound, and I appreciate that the Euro is resilient to FG. However, I fear for as well as the designers of the Euro built it for freegold, I am concerned they may have compromised on making it compatible with political reality of europe. More specifically, the divergence between the supranational monetary policy and national fiscal policy. The Euro was designed for an ever closer union, with every challenge and every crisis the answer being closer unification. If the people of europe ever say enough, no more, the fiscal/monetary divergence threatens to blow up the Euro or the EU, even if FG does not. Given my lack of faith in the Euro, I have thought about other MoEs (plural, there will be many IMNSHO, thus the diversion into silver have an ancillary monetary role I would rather stay away from debating at this point...irrelevant to the more important question of 'will FG happen?'

Daedalus Mugged

Woland said...

Fresh from the odds 'n ends dept, via Bloomberg: April 21-

"Bernanke to miss Jackson Hole Symposium on scheduling conflict."
Hmm. Something pretty important must have come up, with the
event 4 plus months, away that couldn't be re-scheduled. A shave?
A haircut?


Dante_Eu said...

@Woland:

How about both? :-)

Dante_Eu said...

Also, how hard can it be? Really? He only needs to say, like 3 sentences:

1. "We print more!"

2. "We CRUSH gold!"

3. "We victorious, see you same time next year...tradition...YEAH!"

Everyone applauds frenetically.

simpleminded said...

New Chairman for the FED:
Stanley Fischer

Sam said...

This blog has done wonders for me in explaining a much more plausible version of history before, during and after the oil crisis 35 years ago. My understanding of these events is what makes me believe that freegold is inevitable. The system we have now is functioning on a life-line and shouldn’t be viewed by anyone as sustainable. Obviously a gold standard is not sustainable either. When the dollar systems lifeline expires if a freegold system is not adopted to replace it I feel like we have already been given a glimpse of the consequences. I suppose my confidence in its inevitability is I cannot see any alternatives.

Woland said...

Fischer was Bernanke's Doctoral Dissertation adviser. And as Chairman
of Israel's Central Bank, he has proposed buying U.S. equities as part of
the CB's reserves. Can you say "front lawn dump"? (I knew that you could)
Cheers.

simpleminded said...









Woland, do you see him staging a last battle for the dollar or is he to be the first choosen after the reset?






said...

Didn't Israel already make a big purchase into AAPL on it's move to 700?

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