Tuesday, July 23, 2013

The Funeral



Over the weekend I attended a gathering of my whole extended family. It was a funeral. At dinner after the funeral, one relative whom I had gotten heavily into gold back in the $7 & $800s of late 2008/early 2009 cornered me and asked me what I thought of the recent gold price decline. He doesn't know that I have a blog. Actually, no one in my extended family does.

I assured him that I am not concerned about the price action as evidenced by a recent gold purchase and no sales of any of my gold. He told me that he hasn't sold any either and he's not that worried because it's still much higher than when he purchased it. I told him that I had a theory about the decline and he asked what it was. I told him it was a little too complicated to explain while whispering at the corner of a crowded dinner table. Then he explained to me that he thinks someone is manipulating the price.

He relayed a story that he has already told me a couple other times about how he used to invest in or trade commodity contracts back in the 70s or 80s (I'm not sure exactly when it was). In particular, he liked to play in sugar back then. He explained how he would buy "sugar contracts" and how the big players had many ways to manipulate the crops, the reporting of the crops, the supply lines etc… (reminded me of Trading Places). He had actually been quite lucky in sugar as it went his way and he made a big profit, but since then he has decided that he was just lucky for being on the right side of a manipulation meant to screw someone much bigger than him on the other side.

Then he asked me about my theory again. I don't have many opportunities to practice a simple, short explanation, so I took the bait the second time using his story as a launchpad. Here's what I told him.

I explained that the fundamental purpose of what he was doing back when he was buying sugar contracts, whether he understood it or not, was to be kind of a "shock absorber" between the producers and the users of the actual physical commodity. Anyone who invests in, trades or speculates in the paper proxies for these commodities, contracts in particular, is ensuring relative price and supply stability for those who deal in the real item, both the hard working producers and the hungry consumers.

This can be a little confusing because he probably thought that, by buying sugar contracts for profit, he was actually competing against the users of sugar and putting additional pressure on the producers. He probably imagined himself as a player in amongst those who create and use the real physical item. But what he was actually doing was joining a pool of traders and speculators who will take upon themselves any price shocks that occur, leaving the real users to their mostly-pleasant existence. Among that pool of speculators there will of course be winners and losers. Meanwhile, the real users are all winners in that they weren't interested in sugar for its profit potential from price and supply volatility, but for its usefulness as a food product.

Using my hands I showed him how we have the sugar growers and producers on one side, and we have the sugar consumers on the other side. And then in the middle we have the traders and speculators like he was doing who absorb any shocks in the supply line by claiming the profits and losses from volatility for themselves. These speculators deliver price stability to the producers on one side (by giving them a financial market in which to hedge their production income) and supply stability to the consumers on the other side (by keeping the price to the end user commensurate with the current supply flow).

There is also the warehouseman who adjusts which commodity and how much of the real, physical commodity he stores in his warehouse according to the basis—the changing level of the contango (and occasional backwardation) created by the speculators. The warehouseman is on the same side as the producers supplying the market rather than being in the middle with the traders and speculators because, like the producers, he avoids the price volatility by simply acting upon the immediate income guaranteed by the difference between present and future prices offered by the speculators. Whenever there is slack in the supply line, he takes up that slack by expanding the inventory in his warehouse while earning an income from the speculators that resembles a fee for storing the product for a period of time.

Likewise, when there is no slack in the supply line signaling demand that is greater than new production and which is reflected by a low or nonexistent contango (fee for storing the product paid by the speculators), the warehouseman drains his inventory by selling into the tight flow and relatively high demand. I say relatively high demand because, in the case of commodities like sugar, rather than being a sudden spike in demand, it is actually a drop in new supply often caused by normal seasonal changes, but sometimes caused by unexpected things like bad weather which can destroy a whole season's crop. But to the consumer, the shock of a sudden reduction in supply is absorbed by the warehouseman who is able to provide this service because of the financial basis provided by the traders and speculators in the contract market.

Once my relative had this picture in his mind and understood where he fit into the picture back when he was "trading sugar contracts," I switched to gold. I explained that gold doesn't need this pool of traders and speculators acting as a shock absorber in between those who deal in the real metal for its primary useful purpose. Because gold isn't consumed like other commodities, there is always plenty of supply at the right price and therefore no essential need for either producers of new gold or warehousemen reacting to a basis derived from paper proxy trading.

But even though gold is different from all of the other commodities, I explained, we still have this same basic structure today (using my hands again) with the producers and warehousemen (the bullion banks) on one side, the end users of the real metal on the other side, and the traders and speculators in the middle. Then I explained to him that "my theory" was that the recent price decline was actually just the death throes of this basic structure. Because this structure is not necessary for gold, and because it still exists today, what we are seeing in the price decline is this whole middle area (using my hands again) of paper proxy trading going down. But this, I explained, has little to do with the real item on either side, which I told him is why he bought physical gold coins instead of any kind of paper gold substitutes back in 2008.

There are something like 5 ½ billion ounces of already-mined gold in the world, so after this basic commodity structure disappears in the case of gold, the owners of that tremendous and overwhelming stock of gold will become the suppliers replacing what is more of a one-way commodity-like supply flow today. So, unlike with sugar where you need a constant new supply on one side because the real product is consumed on the other side, with gold this one-way flow is unnecessary since the real "end-use" of gold is to hold it and then, at some point later, to sell it to someone else.

So the "end users" of gold actually appreciate the relative tightness in new supply that tends to increase the price over time and ultimately turns them into suppliers sometime later. It is a virtuous loop that is not in need of a shock-absorbing pool of traders and speculators like the one-way flow of commodities that get consumed either by industry or consumers. And that, I explained, is my explanation for the declining price of these tradable paper proxies. This basic commodity market structure is not needed for gold and I interpret the recent dramatic price decline as a sign that the "market-organism" is in the process of phasing it out.

I explained that the dramatic price drop was kind of like "bad weather" to the gold mining companies and that, as you'd expect in this commodity-style market structure, there are indications that the warehousemen are now draining their inventories so that we, the end-users, don't feel the tightness in the supply flow. But far from this plunge in the price indicating the funeral for gold-the-metal, the evidence says that it's merely the funeral for the commodity-like structure of the outdated gold market.

Whoever is sitting on those 5 ½ billion ounces of already-mined gold, including the central banks, is apparently not casting it into the streets in disgust. It's apparently mainly the holders of paper gold promises doing the casting, and that's why the price crashed. So what we appear to be watching is the failure of a general market structure that was misprescribed in the first place.

I explained that my view of this is not based solely on gold theory and a narrow view on only the gold market, but instead it comes from a comprehensive thesis that also reveals many other "stress fractures" appearing right now that support the idea that a major change is unfolding. And that, I told him, is why I'm still buying physical gold even as others are selling their paper gold and mining shares in disgust.

I told him that what I expect is an almost-overnight revaluation in physical gold. He asked how high I thought it could go. I said that he would laugh if I told him, but that it was quite high. Then he brought up $10 per gallon gasoline. So I had to explain that I wasn't talking about $5,000 gold with $10 per gallon gas. I said that right now an ounce of gold could buy 12 or 13 barrels of oil but that I expect it to buy MUCH more after the revaluation.

So, in conclusion, I told him that the counterintuitive conclusion that kept me buying physical gold even as the price declined dramatically was that the price action reveals the rejection or phasing out of the current commodity market structure of the gold market which, in my view, will lead to this revaluation in the actual physical item which will reform the physical gold supply line from a one-way flow into a virtuous circular loop where the "end users" are also the majority suppliers, but at a much higher value relative to everything else. I can't say that his head exploded all over the dinner table, because it didn't, but he did change the subject at that point. ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA

PS. It is tempting to think about the various indicators that we observe as the cause of what we expect to happen, but I don't think about them in that way. Instead, I think about them as being similar to the gravitational effects we can see that let us know that a black hole exists even though we can never see or fully understand the black hole itself. These things we watch are simply a few of the visible symptoms of a vastly more complex yet invisible black hole.

I came across a couple of paragraphs in a book last night that, to me, resonated with my view of the unknowable complexity that must underlie what we see happening today, and I wanted to share them with you:

"Not everything that happens during the day is an omen portending a good or evil development in the future, but everything has meaning to one degree or another, for the world is an ever-weaving tapestry from which no thread can be pulled without destroying the integrity of the cloth. The breadth of Creation makes it impossible for us to step back far enough to see the story that the tapestry tells; the intricacy of it, from the macro to the micro to the subatomic, makes it impossible for us to comprehend the megatrillions of connections between the threads in just one small fragment of the whole.

Yet there are uncanny moments when each of us recognizes that the surface of events is just what the word denotes, a
surface under which lie layers beyond counting, that what's really happening is always more than what appears to be happening, that the apparent meaning of an event is only the smallest part of its fullest meaning. In such moments, most people—wise or foolish, simple or smart—truly feel the wonder of the world and perceive poignantly but briefly that at the heart of our existence lie mysteries so supremely grand in character that we cannot comprehend them in this life. The tendency then is to treat this revelation as an aberration, to react with fear or pride, or both, and to attribute the experience to mere confusion, stress, one glass of wine too many, one glass of wine too few, or any of the innumerable unlikely causes."
–Dean Koontz

PPS. If the current commodity-like gold market structure is being "put down" by the market-organism as I think it is, would you view that as a natural death or as more of an execution?


657 comments:

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tEON said...

India may have an unwanted response to curbing Gold imports
HERE
500,000 workers lose jobs as jewellers curb gold imports
According to industry estimates, as many as 500,000 artisans, craftsmen and salesmen have lost their jobs since June. And if the trend continues, thousands more may join their ranks.
Big country, eh?

Edwardo said...

I saw that, enough.

This broadside could be revealing along the following lines listed here in no order of preference.

1.) Some cohort of the The Fed system actually believe their own bullshit and think that QE is designed to bolster the U.S. economy when the evidence strongly shows that it only benefits the U.S. Government and is therefore designed for that purpose.

2.) This embarrassing hit piece is being carried out by a regional member bank for the purpose of providing some thin veneer of cover
for the CB, though it's hard to imagine that the main branch wasn't well aware (and approving) of the message before it was delivered by a regional member bank that's just one hundred miles down the road.

In summary, The Federal Reserve System is trying to stir up trouble for a rival. Their tactic is to impugn the reputation of the ECB by calling into question the competence of its managers. From here, this has the whiff of a desperate act, and one wonders if the ECB will respond in any way, or, instead, realizing that this is nothing more than a wild hay maker being thrown by a figher who is losing on all the scorecards late in the fight, they will lower their head, letting the blow hit nothing but air, without bothering to counter.

Bright aurum said...

@ gary
Thank you for that article.
@ all
Was it not because of the attitude of fast-lane_ers such as spaul67 that we lost the presence of contributors such as Blondie and Costata who ran out of empathy and venom respectively, not to mention the callus on their scrolling fingers.
Am I the only one who gets the feeling that here always pop up folks as if being paid to sabotage the comment section of this blog?

Bright aurum said...

@ Michael dV
Nicely put summary of the ailments of the modern 'democratic' societies. Enough a reason to obtain gold and no silver, new dollars, stocks, houses, bonds or early issues of the playboy magazine, thank you very much spaul67. (though such worn out editions catch a nice price tag according to Discovery Channel`s latest show)

Bright aurum said...

Another examle of HprI - made possible by stupid governments elected by stupid people.

ein anderer said...

»… carried the significant burden of protecting the modern world against all forms of tyranny for the last 100 years …«

Like in Japan, Vietnam, Kambodscha, Irak, Afghanisthan?

Until now I’ve read most of your comments. From now on »spaul67« is identical with any possible adjective suitable for blinded, mentally blocked people. Sorry for that, but there are red line limits for ignorance too.

byiamBYoung said...

@Bright Aurum,

"Am I the only one who gets the feeling that here always pop up folks as if being paid to sabotage the comment section of this blog?"

It's tempting to think that way, but I have to believe that if there was a deliberate sabotage in action, the misinformation would be much better constructed, and echoed by multiple trolls simultaneously, to try and create the illusion of a groundswell.

I think our dissenters are not part of a larger coordinated plan, FWIW.

Cheers

byiamBYoung said...

@Bright Aurum,

But more on that topic, I just wonder if the NSA has compiled nice fat files on the regular posters/visitors to this site? It sure would be a convenient way to pinpoint a lot of small piles of shiny yellow metal, yes?

I, of course, have no gold whatsoever, and simply read this blog for entertainment purposes only. Nope. No gold.

Cheers

Woland said...

Via Robert L. Hetzel, Richmond red Chief Economist;
(from the paper critical of the ECB cited by Pritchard, ht Enough)
(I just read this sh*t so that YOU don't have to)

"Despite their popular appeal, credit cycle theories of economic
fluctuations possess no theoretical foundation."

I'm speechless.

Woland said...

should read Richmond Fed. (doh!)

Anonymous said...

Woland,

I wonder if he has a shitty, mouse-like beard like Krugman's?


"Despite their popular appeal, certain beard-wearing economists' theories on economic reality possess no actual substance"



Anonymous said...

Guys,

The thought has crossed my mind on a number of occasions that some people could be paid to obfuscate online. I do believe it to be true in some cases. I tell ya, though...If some of these long-winded guests of ours are on someone's payroll... then their employer is failing and should be bankrupt any time now. Plus, these fellows must barely make enough to make an actual living. The quality is just not there.

Some people just like to be "heard" when they should be listening.


You are the Biggest Thing Since Powdered Milk



byiamBYoung said...

@sleepingvillage,

"Some people just like to be "heard" when they should be listening"

has been permanently pasted into my quotes to remember file. Artfully stated.

Cheers

Bright aurum said...

@ byiamBYoung
Somebody else had used this kind of arms twisting construction before...
'So for those of the “me Tarzan I like gold, you are fool who don’t just echo this to me Tarzan, me Tarzan put finger in ear” go ahead and ignore my posts, I can’t stop you anyway nor do I really care.'
..I just can not remember who?
...may be in combination with the religious cult meme.

Bright aurum said...

@ tyrannyofthepresent
I is very rude of you to wast our time twice.

Michael dV said...

Byb
I do not think that the NSA cares if we have gold so I doubt anyone is being paid to post here.
I could understand cheerleading to encourage purchases of some item but to discourage the purchase of physical????? That is the default position for 99% of the population to begin with. That is the issue we try to surmount ask we discuss with friend and family. My guess is that some people simply must get all the crazy 'out' when it reaches a critical level 'in'.
Maybe after the big event we can have a 'truth and reconciliation' session and all the trolls here can be forgiven if they just confess.

Anonymous said...

@ein anderer

Spaul67 "carried the significant burden of protecting the modern world against all forms of tyranny for the last 100 years"

http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries.php#

I’m sure there is an American cemetery within easy driving distance from you if you want to more deeply reflect on the profound truth of what I wrote above.

Let me tell you as an American; hearing the bells toll from the tower given to America by the Netherlands as thank you for the sacrifices American endured in liberating their nation; while being surround by the graves of fellow Americans that stretch to each horizon; is very moving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Carillon

Unfortunately the generation that didn’t need to be convinced that American, has on balance, been a force for good in the world is clearly passing away, replaced by lesser sons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Thousand_Year_Leap

Though America has also successively strayed further and further away from the principles above as well.

Anonymous said...

gary said...
“India may have an unwanted response to curbing Gold imports”

A good example of a government doing stupid things with regards to gold.

A question to someone in India, do you need to pay capital gains when you exchange gold for currency?

Franco said...

"needing to pay taxes" and "being required by law to pay taxes" are two very different things. I think you are inquiring about the latter.

byiamBYoung said...

Michael dV,

From anonymous trolls to Trolls Anonymous?

Cheers

Edwardo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Edwardo said...

The political will to engage in austerity is already gone.

-Kyle Bass

Indeed. So, when Mr. Bass says there is no real way out, it's more than a little interesting, given Mr. Bass' (non political) position and some of his well known proclivities, that he didn't respond to John Mauldin's question, "The average investor, what does he do?" with something like the following: Now is no time to be "investing" but, instead, saving, and doing so in the one asset that is best suited for that purpose, gold.

In fairness to Mr. Bass, I recall that it wasn't long ago that he advised folks to buy gold and (more or less) forget about it and look up in a decade. We also know he has been instrumental in the University of Texas acquiring physical. So, perhaps it is best to think of Kyle Bass' latest comments as something like a golden opportunity missed to reiterate a theme that has seemed on board with.

byiamBYoung said...

Speaking of John Mauldin, he is mentioned in this piece by Robert Lenzner, and the last paragraph of the essay has me puzzled:

"As dinner ends, Maudlin presses me to investigate what he calls “one of the great mysteries of the world, the rate at which gold bullion is disappearing from central banks store of wealth.” He tells me “no-one has the answer, but you can see it happening yourself.” "

What does he mean? Is he talking about GLD and other etfs? All the reports I have read lately describe central banks adding gold (yes, a few have sold tiny bits in the last month or so, but nothing to represent a trend).

Does anyone know what this is all about?

Cheers

Roacheforque said...

BIMBY.
I don't think Mauldin is quite aware of his surroundings. This is the same guy who tells Kyle Bass "The U.S. has a way out".

Though Kyle has an appreciation for gold which far trumps a John Paulson, he doesn't seem to understand that gold IS the way out.

It would be interesting to expose him fully to FOFOA, he's very sharp and I don't think he has been.

byiamBYoung said...

Wil (from that mysterious other account),

If a shrimp like me has found his way to FOFOA's blog, I can't imagine that all of these prognosticators haven't also discovered these essays.

My totally unqualified opinion is that many of these pundits must struggle between divulging what they do indeed understand, and mouthing what they know they can leverage to earn their living.

Life would be so much more interesting if noone had to pay bills.

Cheers

Roacheforque said...

Oh indeed I give you that sir, a profound observation indeed. And not one that never entered my mind either ... but Kyle issues a certain lack of serenity that betrays ambiguity in "how the end game plays out".
Perhaps that caution ius an element of his profession, which further obfuscates the inner workings of the Bass-Master.

Let us say he would make and interesting commentator here.

byiamBYoung said...

Wil (from the undisclosed account)

We can only hope that we begin to see missives from Bass-Master here, to add to the FOFOA melting pot.

(earnestly trolling with a tasty lure to entice the bass-master to strike!)

Cheers

Roacheforque said...

I have been thinking that today's global hyerinflation is different than past HI's.

It is a hyperinflation of notional wealth onto the asset side of the balance sheets of primary dealers, to protect and launder systemically fraudulent debt (as is necessary at this stage of expansion).

Dollars are still quite scarce for those who need them most, and most freely abundant to the chosen few who do not need them at all.

So this HI is marked by the increasing wealth gap that always separates systemic winners from systemic losers (the winners of course being those who crafted and molded the current system for that purpose).

Great bushels of dollars will never enter the middle class world of broad goods and services of the physical plane other than by (shrinking) earnings or entitlements (the new U.S. Middle class having a fair stake in entitlements already).

And the ruling class derives great advantage from "deflationary prices" in the physical plane while most new money serves to protect their assets.

It will not be a supply/demand resolution that creates a typical general godos and servces price hyperinflation of all dolllar denominated assets (debt).

Therefore, what will affect the credibility of the dollar's MoE utility?

Edwardo said...

Kyle Bass may not want to press too hard on the golden truth button because, let's face it, if he were really prepared to offer the unvarnished truth, he'd be out of a job.

As Upton Sinclair observed, It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

I strongly suspect that this condition defined the case of Paul Brodsky
and QBAMCO.

And then there's simply the dynamic of inculcating a world view that simply will not allow the analyst that is boxed in by it to A.) Home in on the source of the problem. And in the absence of a proper diagnoses this precludes said analyst from B.) imagining, let alone recognizing, the solution.

If you think the kind of procedures that include bleeding the patient as a curative measure are the way forward, germ theory isn't ever going to register.

Roacheforque said...

There Bimby, that was my jiggling floater for the Bass Master. May we reeeel him in with wisdom from the flower ...

Roacheforque said...

E,
Interesting you would mention Brodsky, both he and KB seem to me to be that quintessential type that deep down inside truly gets it, but must discipline themselves "not to" in order to play the role they have chosen.

Just another case of reading between the lines, eh Watson?

What's this? More clues over here ??

byiamBYoung said...

Well, Kudos on your jiggling floater. Quite impressive.

God I hope they all don't start calling me Bimby. I'll need to come up with a deer in the headlights icon.

Please, no.

Cheers

Roacheforque said...

Keeping in mind from above, that this systemically fraudulent dollar debt is something most US asset (i.e. HOME) owners have a stake in as far as higher valuations go.

That is just the beauty of a well designed system that creates stakeholders through interdepency, in many strands of the web.

I'm not sure if I "hate" this system, though I do admire it's design. I think that it's a hopeful sign in following Another's logic that I will admire the next even more.

Roacheforque said...

You know, I was just trying to shorten it, and BIMBY just sort of took over.

I love it actually, but can back away if the shoe doesn't fit.

byiamBYoung said...

Wil (from out there, somewhere)

Bells can't be unrung. We embrace the future together, yes?

Cheers

Unknown said...

A noble animal, the fine and stalwart buck.

By the eyes, he seems to be quite taken by the wisdom of the mind flower.

You are cleansed ...
Happy Trail!

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Edwardo said...

Speaking of bells being rung. h/tZH

ein anderer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ein anderer said...

spaul67,
there was a good reason why I’ve started my argument against your 100 years span of »protecting the modern world against all forms of tyranny« with the word »Japan« (= Hiroshima, Nagasaki) instead of «Germany«.
Having done good in the past is not a proof for doing good in the presence. But yes, what is going on in the presence must not determine the future either.
And these remarks, altogether, are not directed to the American people. Governments and people are not the same.

michael3c2000 said...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fallling-dollar-means-go-long-precious-metals-2013-08-05?siteid=rss&rss=1
Anthony M. provides five reasons to expect dollar weakness with gold reacting opposite. Some very interesting material, after the requisite BS about "growth" and alleged consumer confidence claims etc...

Motley Fool said...

Kyle Bass gets it imo, at least insofar as gold is the solution, though he may not understand the exact mechanics.

Thing is, he is a hedge fund manager and a very sharp guy. He can't talk openly about gold in the Keynesian dominated media and expect to keep appearing on shows to talk about other related aspects of the coming problems, as well as attract capital to Hayman.

Hence he shy's away from gold whenever asked, and simply smiles, so as to be able to keep speaking of other important things.

KnallGold said...

enough said: "Giants ready to finally get off their asses?"

So you think that uprising! has finally reached, well, a GIANT level? Cute :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJqWyFN0tkw

Good to have a safe seat on the sidelines while we're watching the game of musical chairs in London. A game which has one seat for nine players, ouch...

I'd say Gold medal for that small giant shouting that the bank has no Gold!

May the world have stability, prosperity and peace!

One Bad Adder said...

$PoG seems to have found its Currency footing at present - whereas $PoS is the decided laggard...
...hence the rising Ratio.
Watching with interest tomorrows 3-mo Auction result to see if the "dropping Dollar" is assisting to de-fuse (or otherwise) the short-end-of-the-curve.

One Bad Adder said...

Would probably have expected DX to be sub-80 by now (to effect a meaningful attempt to cool down the short end of the curve) ...and it still may! ...going forward.
This Chart represents where we're at ...and what might well happen if "the Market" is given it's head - IMHO.

Unknown said...

E,
Funny, I was just thinking this morning, "With today's controlled (and purposeful) inflation of nominal "hyper-wealth" to systemic debt holders, how can we ever have another meaningful (Bretton Woods)"

There would surely be one empty seat at the table, where at the last one sat the "hostest with the mostest".

It does seem that New York and London will be spun (and rightly so) as the epicenters of "what went wrong' with the last system, as we stand at the precipice of the next.

Will they foolishly attempt to peg their Yuan to some weight of redeemable gold?

Thinking back to Kyle, his explanation of the decision to "repatriate" U of T's physical was perfectly acceptable within the confines of mainstream cynicism.

When Brodsky uttered the words "Gold Standard" he lost many of us here. But in essence, when FREEGOLD does emerge it will be billed as such, details be damned.

That is the thought that minds trained to accept no more than 140 characters can wrap themselves around, and the devil be damned.

We do sometimes take a step backwads in order to take 2 steps forward.

Yet in this organically elegant system, we are attempting to preserve the value of our many foreign benefactors debt reserves are we not?

Even as they dump them for such a barbarous commodity as gold.

Many are the blessings of the flower of understanding ...

Edwardo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Edwardo said...

I find the invocation of the hoary Bretton Woods Conference interesting. Two of the more salient features of that gathering were that it took place after the greatest military conflict in human history
on U.S. (the last man standing's) turf.

I wonder if this overture to convene a "new" Bretton Woods isn't a gambit that has embedded within it a heads we win, tails you lose aspect. After all, to even hold such a conference would result in the formalizing of the end of, not just dollar hegemony, but, also, U.S. global political dominance. As such, I'm not going to hold my breath in anticipation of the U.S. getting on board with another Bretton Woods. After all, it wasn't all that long ago that a certain contingent of U.S. elites in groups with names like Project For The New American Century were authoring papers with phrases such as "full spectrum dominance." And these same folks were no doubt instrumental in erecting the greatest spying/ blackmail apparatus NSA the world has ever seen.

However, U.S. resistance to participating in such a conference, let alone attempts to scupper one, will give China some cover to do what they feel necessary do to activate a new monetary paradigm. They can plausibly say, "We tried. We proposed a new Bretton Woods to allow us all to solve (dollar driven) monetary problems and move forward together, but we were rebuffed. We then had no choice but to make other arrangements.

I would like to think that the Chinese have learned the lessons of monetary history and will work to see gold employed as a wealth reserve asset not tied to a unit of credit, but I am far from confident that China has that perspective. Having said that, I can imagine how any plans to employ gold in a regressive way will be preempted. In any case, any recrudescence of the gold standard won't last long.

enough said...

Bond Losses at Federal Reserve Top $192 Billion

"Granted, the Bernanke & Co. does not value its massive bond portfolio on a mark-to-market basis. But the surge in interest rates has already erased almost $200 billion in the Federal Reserve’s capital. But that’s not all.

If interest rates continue to head higher, the value of the Fed’s liquid assets that it could sell would decline and further undermine its capital cushion. And if the velocity of rate increases intensifies, the Fed, with only $62 billion in capital, could see its entire capital base completely wiped out.

This could have a serious domino effect. It could paralyze the Fed’s ability to defend the dollar’s purchasing power, causing Treasury prices (NYSEARCA:TLT) to fall further and thereby push interest rates even higher. Just imagine the unimaginable; a weakened and impotent Fed."

http://www.etfguide.com/commentary/1095/Bond-Losses-at-Federal-Reserve-Top-$192-Billion/

Edwardo said...

This could have a serious domino effect. It could paralyze the Fed’s ability to defend the dollar’s purchasing power

And therein is the fault in that analysis. The Fed isn't interesting in protecting the dollar's purchasing power, far from it.

DP said...

Quite!

The USG are hopping mad when anyone else attempts to out-devalue them!

They'll respond to that so quick it makes your head spin!

enough said...

Agreed, that "observation" by the author does not capture the FED's intentions....

But the loses do point to the FED's catch 22....

Taper and the FED's portfolio loses value and unwinding purchases at extensive loss creates FED insolvency....

The only way to maintain the value of FED's portfolio is to never taper....

which of course they will not, au contraire, I expect even larger purchases after a good equity mkt scare

said...

Enough,

I saw that article as well. Wonder why it is not getting more mainstream attention. Actually, I don't. But it previews how the end game will happen or rather a big part of it. As the fed is powerless to halt inflation by selling bonds because they(and the treasury) can not afford the losses. So they will have no other choice but to buy to keep prices up.

Unknown said...

Quite interesting these somewhat uncharted waters we've entered sailing aboard the good ship 'Nanke-pop.

Careful Nank, too much sugary debt candy and you'll awake with a tummy ache.

The realization that interest (i.e. risk) rates have such a profound impact on "paper wealth" (was that an instantaneious 200 billion dollar vanishing act?) is really just another lesson that paper wealth is not just a short position on gold, but an inverse derivative of it.

Someone down the comment line of that article only mentioned derivatives - what a mouthful!

When there is no risk, debt derivatives are a wonderful ASSET, but when risk rises ...

Well, let's just say that we would all be much more amazed if a rise in interest rates could somehow instantaneously cause 200 billion "dollars worth of gold" to vanish (without military intervention).

Not so surprising will come a time when DEBT is just as instantaneously PERCEIVED as "liability" and the "wealth" which vanishes in THAT magic show will amaze the masses like no other.

But what manner of "betrayal of the senses" will cause that sudden shift in perception?

Michael dV said...

I get several newsletters. One of Porter Stansberry's guys, Steve Sjuggerud PhD has advised getting into miners. HIS gold guru, John Doody (a known gold guy) has declared:" We Have Seen the Bottom".
We shall see shant we?
We here are treated to a rare point of view. It is different than one (pays for and) gets anywhere else. Of course we do not know who will be seen as right in the long run but in my opinion we are getting better advice based on better data based on better reasoning that anywhere else.
None of these guys suggested a downturn in gold last Fall and none can coherently explain what is happening at GLD. The best most of them can do is to declare an illegal market manipulation and conspiracy at high levels.
I like getting ideas here. I continue to subscribe to other letters for amusement at least.

Bright aurum said...

@Luke, Enough,
The FED(,if it chooses to,) can take imaginary concepts like unrealized gains or horse s_it for example and call it assets to balance its even smellier liabilities.
If you have a bunch of dollars try and compare their smell with the shiny stuff.

said...

Bright

I don't think there will be any balance sheet problems like that because they won't mark to makret.

Franco said...

enough:

That's a dilemma, not a "catch 22". Two completely different things. Also, the Fed can never be insolvent.

Bright aurum said...

@Luke
'..because they won't mark to market..'
Yeah. And we all know the FED has a loooong tradition of not marking to market. Upscaling sh*t and downscaling gold - pathetic.

Edwardo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Edwardo said...

The Fed via the state of their bond portfolio is goIng to bring on the condition of Shrodinger's Cat. I predict the rest of the world will resolve the matter in no uncertain terms.

One Bad Adder said...

Curiously, with each passing month, the Feds ability to get itself "back in the Game" of Credit-side management ...becomes easier.
Take the benchmark T-10 ...over the last several years, we've seen a reduction in "Coupon" ... and thusly it has fallen out-of-favour with all and sundry, forcing Fed acquisition (their ONLY option) ...
...simply to keep the systemic wheels on.
Looking forward, IF this "new paradigm" holds together, we well may see a return (in say 2 years) of Fed Credit-side M'gt via FFR adjustments ...in the mean time it's still very much a "work-in-progress" ...albeit much easier this month than last.
Todays 3 Mo auction - FYI

One Bad Adder said...

...and "hopefully" the Light they currently see at the End of the Tunnel, will in fact turn out to be the FreeGold Express!

enough said...

Franco,

it’s impossible for a central bank to become formally insolvent. Nonetheless, it can become functionally insolvent, void of any ability to command resources or influence markets.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/01/terry-coxon/the-long-swim-how-the-fed-could-becomeinsolvent/

vizeet srivastava said...

spaul67,

Yes, we need to pay capital gain tax on profits made by selling gold but most people find ways to avoid it. Govt hasn't tried to make things very difficult for consumers.
Whatever govt is doing now is only increasing import through non-legal channels.
Currently there is a shortage is bullion but not in jewelry. And premiums are rising rapidly.

Anonymous said...

I think most of us can agree that there are significantly more paper claims on hard assets than exist at ‘present’ hard asset prices. The primary debate is how this difference is reconciled in the future.

The first scenario described by Daniel Amerman……..

http://danielamerman.com/articles/2011/LdeficitC.html

…….is a process in which the rate of return on these paper claims is suppressed below the real rate of inflation thereby reducing the difference over time. Thus the excess paper claim liability will be gradually dissolved away with each successive generation redefining down what normal is in terms of taxes, benefits and forward purchasing power.

The second scenario is described by Ellen Brown……

https://webofdebt.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/the-detroit-bail-in-template-fleecing-pensioners-to-save-the-banks/

………and represents a rapid transfer of paper shrimps claims on wealth to the kleptocracy via laws recently passed by the kleptocracy that gives them priority in the systemic collapse ironically caused by their fraudulent behavior in the first place, heads they win tails we lose. Now some of us are well aware of this but lack the numbers to make a change in the law ‘before’ the event. In order to make such a sweeping change most of Congress would need to be removed from office and replaced with like minded representatives. Good try, but magical thinking at its best. My guess is that if some form of Glass-Steagall is put in place it will come well ‘after’ the damage is done. Just like the last time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOJLWtSfKks

The third scenario is best supported by this blog in which ‘debt will be saved at all cost’ resulting in flurry of paper being unleashed into the economy. The government increases this feedback loop by attempting to sustain its lifestyle by being the first to spend the new currency. Monetary velocity increase geometrically amplifying the effects of the large supply already in place.

Now in scenarios one and two there won’t be a geometric increase in the ‘liquid’ cash in the economy. Thus no driving force to bid up prices of anything, including gold. In fact I could easily see a mix of scenarios 1 and 2 in which a combination of direct and stealth theft of the purchasing power is done.

Only scenario 3 produces the geometric increase in cash flow but as I wrote in an earlier post this doesn’t’ necessarily mean all this excess cash will just pile into gold. Yet FOFOA makes a compelling case as to why the government would prefer that this flood of excess currency stays away from social disruptive (food, energy) and sovereignty supporting (land, equities) assets types. The key policy change that would give gold (or any asset deemed in the interest of the state to promote) the upper hand over ‘all’ other assets would be the elimination of all forms of tax on it.

Thus two things are critical at the policy level that enables freegold. First it must be the policy of the government to save debt at all cost, second all form of tax must be eliminated from gold.

Now it’s easy to see how the second policy naturally flows from the first. What I don’t think is well supported is why scenarios 1 and 2 aren’t also viable? Scenario 1 has the support of past history (70s') and scenario 2 has the support of exiting law (Dodd Frank).

Now in general someone holding physical gold will come out ahead of the paper shrimps in all scenarios but the big gain is in scenario 3 in which gold’s ‘relative’ value to all other assets shifts and shifts in a big way.

Edwardo said...

Spaul67 wrote,

Only scenario 3 produces the geometric increase in cash flow but as I wrote in an earlier post this doesn’t’ necessarily mean all this excess cash will just pile into gold.

No, it won't. The revaluation of physical gold will not be the result of "excess cash"
piling into gold.


DP said...

The revaluation of physical gold will not be the result of "excess cash" piling into gold.

Quite.

Anyone looking for mainstream-goldbug views that disagree with our good friend Edwardo will probably enjoy themselves a lot more at other blogs?

The door is over there.

MatrixSentry said...

Right on Edwardo! More like it will be brought on by cash fleeing from the paper gold market. Spaul's scenario suggests holders of gold will part with it for dollars. Not likely. More likely gold goes into hiding until the dust settles. Too little of it and way too many dollars.

Gold will be a hated and despised asset before its new value is known. No mad rush of dollars into gold.

Anonymous said...

Edwardo said...
“The revaluation of physical gold will not be the result of "excess cash" piling into gold.”

Please explain?

burningfiat said...

spaul67,

May I have a go?

Theoretically imagine only $100 was bidding for gold worldwide on any given day. What would the price be? Well, that would depend on how much offered, wouldn't it?
So if gold wasn't offered at all that day? Would it matter if the bid was $100 or $10 trillion?
No! the most recently quoted price is arbitrary! It only depends on what some buyer and seller could agree upon in that exact trade. See, no piles of cash necessary (that's is only related to volume). Only the sudden realization or shift in perception regarding real value in market participants brains (mainly those sitting on the physical gold already) are required for a revalued price.
Methinks a nuked paper gold market would precipitate such a change in thinking in said individuals brains...

Anonymous said...

MatrixSentry said...
“Spaul's scenario suggests holders of gold will part with it for dollars.”

If I can have clear title to my house for a few oz, why not?

MatrixSentry said...
“More likely gold goes into hiding until the dust settles. Too little of it and way too many dollars.”

So gold comes out of hiding at say $50K/oz and starts to flow once again. If that price were sustained all the excess currency could be absorbed but why wouldn’t some of that excess currency still flow into other assets? This also assumes that gold holders will have a use for those dollars. If not then even less gold will be up for auction on a given day driving gold prices higher and excess currency to other things. Name your price $10K, $100K, $1,000K/oz excess currency will increasingly go to some other asset.

About the only reason I can come up with is that the government believes it’s in its own best interests to make gold capital gains tax free. Thus it alone exists outside of the cycle of theft enabled by the current system that bases taxes on a change in the paper dollar value of an asset which currently includes gold the world over.

http://danielamerman.com/articles/GoldTaxes1.htm

Now since FOFOA isn’t about clever ways to cheat on our taxes via gold we must conclude that freegold predicts a change will occur in existing tax law. The theory being that gold must flow or trade will stop. This makes perfect sense to me. But then again laws are made to be changed, thus what is given can also be taken away.

The more important point though is without waves of liquidity looking for a store of value none of this happens. The world remains pretty much like it is now; net producers getting fleece at every turn or bend in the road. How do you know when it’s time to fleece them again? Why when they grow their coats back, that’s how.

DP said...

#RRingTFB: Red Alert: Gold Backwardation!!!

Dollars Bidding for Gold? Or Gold Bidding for Dollars?

When you think about the message that the lease rate sends, it is directly tied to the liquidity the dollar desperately needs. On Sept. 29, 1999 the message was "lease us your gold, PLEASE, and we'll pay you handsomely for it." Today the message is "we don't need to borrow your gold, and if you insist on lending it to us, it'll cost you."

Now, if I am a liquidity creator for the dying $IMFS - a bullion bank - how do I create dollar liquidity? I take a piece of unencumbered physical gold (owned or borrowed) and I fractionalize it. I sell it off to the extent that the probability of a delivery demand is lower than my physical reserves. And in the process, I am creating DEMAND FOR DOLLARS because my "golden tickets" are bidding on dollars. Remember what ANOTHER said...

Date: Fri Jan 23 1998 19:01
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

All modern digital currencies do not go into an investment, they move THRU it... There is an alternative. Gold! It is the only medium that currencies do not "move thru". It is the only Money that cannot be valued by currencies. It is gold that denominates currency. It is to say "gold moves thru paper currencies".

This is the key to EVERYTHING!!! It is not "gold liquidity" that the bullion banks create... it is DOLLAR LIQUIDITY. Dollars bidding on MSFT stock set the value of that stock. If dollars are frantically bidding on MSFT (high velocity), the stock skyrockets. If dollars stop bidding for MSFT all at once (low velocity), the price falls to zero. This is true for everything in the world except gold.

Gold bids for dollars. If gold stops bidding for dollars (low gold velocity), the price (in gold) of a dollar falls to zero. This is backwardation!


It's good to RRTFB.

Anonymous said...

burningfiat said...
“Only the sudden realization or shift in perception regarding real value in market participants brains (mainly those sitting on the physical gold already) are required for a revalued price.”

I agree, hence why if I could hold a clear title to my home for a few oz I’ll do it. I value the title more than the gold and someone else values the gold more than the currency I use to pay off the debt.

The same dynamic occurs between citizens and the CB and nation to nation. In order for gold to function in this manner though it must be free of capital gains just like paper currency is. If the currency I have today buys less or more in terms of other items in the future I can’t claim a loss or a gain. This then explains why all other assets don’t participate in this reevaluation because they are still under the paper ponzi scheme taxation system ‘by’ law.

For example say that for whatever reason silver is not allowed to play in the monetary realm. Thus any gain or loss in paper value is taxed just like any other asset. Thus gold’s gain in relative value to lesser SoV is merely a product of the law is it not?

Also consider this; a paper currency constrained by gold will be different animal than it is today. Would this not stabilize the value of all assets relative to paper thus gold helps prevent inflation taxes on those that choose to hold lesser SoV as well?

In short I don’t think capitalism works with any form of capital gains or wealth taxes regardless of the asset. Transaction taxes facilitated by fiat is another thing but the excess value that remains needs to remain free.

DP said...

Now, if I am a liquidity creator for the dying $IMFS - a bullion bank - how do I create dollar liquidity? I take a piece of unencumbered physical gold (owned or borrowed) and I fractionalize it. I sell it off to the extent that the probability of a delivery demand is lower than my physical reserves. And in the process, I am creating DEMAND FOR DOLLARS because my "golden tickets" are bidding on dollars.

http://www.mining.com/analysts-expects-several-banks-to-follow-jpmorgan-commodities-exit-98273


OMG FOFOA! WHEREZ TEH MEGA DOLLAR LIQUIDITY BID FROM "GOLD"?!

(Methinks not "commodities-trading firms such as Glencore Xstrata"?)

It's almost like these banks know something we don't? (Perhaps "OMG nobody wants 'gold'!"…?)

Next thing we know, they'll start to clear out their inventories of any commodities they run a mega fractional scheme on - as a consequence of running down that book and getting out of Dodge. Oh, wait…

Anonymous said...

DP said...
“This is the key to EVERYTHING!!! It is not "gold liquidity" that the bullion banks create... it is DOLLAR LIQUIDITY. Dollars bidding on MSFT stock set the value of that stock. If dollars are frantically bidding on MSFT (high velocity), the stock skyrockets. If dollars stop bidding for MSFT all at once (low velocity), the price falls to zero. This is true for everything in the world except gold.”

…………And yet the price in currency terms of gold can and does go up and down? I’ll grant you it will ‘never’ go anywhere near zero unlike paper but it sure seems to go up and down in terms of paper based on supply and demand? I remember dealers couldn’t get stock when it was nearing $2000/oz now not much of a problem.

Now I could see given that it’s a physical commodity that logistically a certain amount gold would be put up for auction on a given day (similar to a bond auction) with bid to cover etc. Basically on one side you have all the physical gold that’s going to be exchanged for cash that day and on the other those who want gold. Thus you could say that gold bids for dollars since only a very small fraction of the total physical stock is up for physical delivery on a given day. I get that, but still how is this fundamentally different than any other physical auction like setting?

Abandoned Storage Units bidding for cash anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAW_WySVhSM

Think of all the storage units with stuff but on a given day only a few are up for auction. Heck some even contain gold.

I tell you when the price in paper terms of gold goes down from $2000/oz to $1300/oz it sure feels like other paper assets right now.

Unknown said...

Spaul,
What you are referring to IS a paper asset. It is PAPER GOLD, not gold in currency terms, but paper gold in currency terms. 99% paper, 1% (maybe) physical.

Therefore the Ups and Downs are based on the UNLIMITED supply of paper, and demand for something most participants do not even understand.

So the price dynamic is irrelevant to physical gold, other than the fact that the price "discovered" on the paper gold exchange is what strong hands will pay to anyone foolish enough to give up physical at this stage of the game.

Anonymous said...

DP said...
“I take a piece of unencumbered physical gold (owned or borrowed) and I fractionalize it. I sell it off to the extent that the probability of a delivery demand is lower than my physical reserves. And in the process, I am creating DEMAND FOR DOLLARS because my "golden tickets" are bidding on dollars.”

So if the majority of those purchasing these contracts are only after ‘exposure’ to the gold price it works does it not? Just like taking bets on horse you don’t own nor do you want to. If you want physical gold you go to your coin shop or dealer the networks of which ultimately go all the way to the LBMA or similar for physical flow.

Perhaps the exit of these paper players is a sign that they don’t want the paper risk associated with a leverage short that goes bad when the physical market drys up?

I agree there is disturbance in the force.

Unknown said...

I do believe the dollar faction WILL attempt to save the paper gold market (in it's ferver to protect the dollar system) and our former "bullion" market we will become a pure paper betting arena, as FOA described "... like the OEX".

And as in the 3 hypotheticals, door number 3 conceals the "prize package" - they will save SYSTEMIC debt at any cost until the credibility of this "salvation" and especially the choices of systemic winners and losers comes into question.

It could be credibility that tips the scales, but the event that will change our UNBRIDLED TERROR from "I don't think I will have enough dollars" to "I don't think my dollars will be worth anything" will be painful.

Wait for it ... it's coming.

Thus spake the flower.

Unknown said...

Meanwhile, back at the farm ...
"Moscow has two goals in the railway expansion. First, it hopes to boost its exports of raw commodities. Russia has become among the top oil producers and exporters in the world, and around 250,000 barrels of Russian oil is transported to Asia by rail each day -- an amount that could increase with the Trans-Siberian expansion. The coal industry too would rely on an expanded Trans-Siberian Railway for exports to Asia."

And the EU (Eurasion Union) BEAT goes on ...


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-06/next-stop-vladivostok-russia-bets-big-trans-siberian-railway

JoyOfLearning said...

I wanted to ask you guys if anybody here has read "Tower of Basel - Adam LeBor". It just surfaced on my radar but i'm afraid it might be more of the usual socialist/conspiracist "oo, they're rich" literature, and I was wondering if anybody here read it if I can dare hope for deeper insights into the workings of the BIS from the book. I'm also wondering if the content fits with Another's viewpoints and FG theory. Thank you in advance for your opinion! I couldn't think of a more trustworthy place to ask this. So much respect for all the people here!

Delusional Investing said...

Hi Joy, I think a few here have read it. I recall DP making a "Le Boring" tweet. :-) I'm part way through and enjoying it. It does go through the history of the BIS chronologically, and I'm only up to the mid 40s. It includes lots of names and people which perhaps overloads at times. But I'll be back for more tonight...

JoyOfLearning said...

Delusional Investing: Thank you!

Anand Srivastava said...

spaul67:

I agree, hence why if I could hold a clear title to my home for a few oz I’ll do it. I value the title more than the gold and someone else values the gold more than the currency I use to pay off the debt.

The problem is that the system is not too much concerned about Shrimps Dis-hoarding. The amount will be good in the beginning but it will not sustain.

Understand that there will be dis-hoarding during the crisis, even before revaluation. Then there will be further dis-hoarding after revaluation. The Revaluation price will not be final. It will start out at very high, but the final price will be even higher. It would probably be a good idea to dis-hoard some to buy RE and stocks at that time. But to sell all would IMO be the wrong move.

The gold dis-hoarded during this time will go to the (small) giants. And will be buried by them. Eventually the trickle from the shrimps will stop, and then the real price of gold will be achieved.

The revaluation will be complete only when we achieve a price where giants may think of selling to other giants directly at market price. Currently almost all sale is done by shrimps and miners. Miners will close down soon. The only sellers will be then shrimps. And they will not be selling much either, unless they are in distress. That is what will trigger revaluation, as flow stops. But that is not the final event as Giants will not participate in the flow at that moment as well. It will take some time, till the price of gold stabilizes.

DP said...

And yet the price in currency terms of "gold" can and does go up and down? — #FYP?

I’ll grant you it will ‘never’ go anywhere near zero unlike paper but it sure seems to go up and down in terms of paper based on supply and demand? — Never say never.

"unlike paper" … ;->

given that it’s a physical commodity — But is it?

Basically on one side you have all the "gold" that’s going to be exchanged for cash that day and on the other those who want"gold". […] Thus you could say that "gold" bids for dollars

YES! "Gold" bids for "dumb dollars"? No, wait — I mean "sophisticated dollars"! ;D



how is this fundamentally different than any other physical auction like setting?

Did you ever try eating "pork"? I don't think its very satisfying.

Or making a solar panel out of "silver"?

Every other commodity is consumed. That's why gold is not really a commodity and is not traded quite like any other commodity. Most "gold" trading is just done on paper. More like a currency?



I tell you when the price in paper terms of gold goes down from $2000/oz to $1300/oz it sure feels like other paper assets right now.

YES! Absolutely! Not very satisfying. Unless you don't opt for the "healthy options" menu, but instead a full-fat delivery.

Oh, Kyle, that never happens! ;-)



So if the majority of those purchasing these contracts are only after ‘exposure’ to the gold price it works does it not?

Yes!

Perhaps the exit of these paper players is a sign that they don’t want the "gold"? — Yes, the bull market in "gold" (and commodities) is clearly over.

But some less-sophisticated players still just keep on demanding their stupid physical from the market. Guess those stupid goldbugs just will never learn.



I agree there is disturbance in the force. — GREAT! So now you can stop beating the drum for a silver, and other commodities, bull run and we can all finally get back to just being nice to each other here again. #YAAaay!

Edwardo said...

Gold, at this hour, is in backwardation out to April.

DP said...

Make that June-going-on-August?

(But the data for Apr and Aug are a little stale, so who really knows.)

ein anderer said...

Joy: Thanks for the tip. Have overlooked DP’s remark (sorry, DP ;) ).
All: Interview with LeBor.

Edwardo said...

L'affaire Snowden is looking more and more like the sort of thing some folks refer to as an inflection point.

Anonymous said...

DP said...
“GREAT! So now you can stop beating the drum for a silver, and other commodities, bull run and we can all finally get back to just being nice to each other here again.”

I have a hard time call something a commodity when it has 4x the mass above ground as gold and represent a 50 year supply overhang at current consumption rates; and yet mining and above ground accumulation continues for some crazy reason. Doesn’t sound like any ‘commodity’ I know of? Perhaps you can name a commodity that has a similar stock to flow? I would also add that it would be impossible to write a monetary history of mankind without using the S-word frequently.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/world/silver/silver.html

The same paper traders are ‘also’ getting out of silver along with gold. The fact the CB hold about 15% of the gold and may use say 20% of that or ‘only’ 3% of the supply to make a market illustrates the power that gold already has in forming a monetary system right now. So the fact that CBs have a 3% sway over one stockpile and 0% sway over another doesn’t impress me and in fact is focused on the wrong issue altogether frankly.

As I have said I don’t know what the future holds for silver or gold. What I do know is that for either one of them to act as money again all form of tax ‘must’ be removed. Since taxation is a sovereign power this means that for some reason TPTB must see it in their best interest to do so. Merely having a bunch of shrimp buy this metal or that metal isn’t sufficient.

The part that I have a hard time with is that by ‘allowing’ any asset to exist outside of the cycle of theft enabled currently by pricing hard assets in terms of infinitely expanding paper removes the ram that overtime extracts what wealth we net producers manage to store away in whatever form. If not in our life than at our death.

That is the simple fact. It is also entirely possible that we will have two sets of rules, one for giants that can trade gold back and forth tax free and shrimps that get fleeced every time they trade.

In fact I strongly suspect that when sovereign nations and the kleptocracy move physical gold they don’t pay any tax what so ever.

In earlier posts I mentioned the current trailer from the next Hobbit Movie the Desolation of Smaug. Towards the end of trailer is the image of the dragon guarding a pile of gold while it searches for Bilbo. The dragon doesn’t represent the CB, it represents the tax levied on gold. It’s this tax that ultimate prevents gold or any other similar assets from operating as money. A monetary system that would be far superior to what we have now and one that significantly reduces governments’ ability to grow to cancer like proportions within their nations because the formation of private capital is once again restored.

Now a window may open up in the near future in which a collapse of this global paper ponzi scheme opens the door for gold. TPTB open the door for gold not because they want to because the have too in order to reestablish global trade. My guess is that TPTB won’t be too picky about the excess above ground metals used to achieve that end. Thus the same tax deal the kleptocracy has will also be extended to us lowly shrimp in order to free up enough flow from the trade deficit nations. How long this lasts before we arrive back at the corrupt system we have now is anyone’s guess but if the past is any guide a reversion will be done in gradual steps over a generation or more.

Motley Fool said...

Spaul

"yet mining and above ground accumulation continues for some crazy reason."

It's not so crazy. The bulk(say 19 billion ounces) of that stockpile is in sterling, which is uneconomical at present to refine into industrial use purity.

As for the rest, tradition and sentiment from the goldandsilver crowd.

"As I have said I don’t know what the future holds for silver or gold. What I do know is that for either one of them to act as money again all form of tax ‘must’ be removed."

I do ( within a fair margin of certainty). Talking of gold as money( and the volumes of ages along ago debunked drivel) clearly illustrates you like the sound of your own voice, and have not spent much time trying to shut up and learn.

"The part that I have a hard time with is that by ‘allowing’ any asset to exist outside of the cycle of theft enabled currently by pricing hard assets in terms of infinitely expanding paper removes the ram that overtime extracts what wealth we net producers manage to store away in whatever form."

The part you have a hard time with is letting go of your ant-like view. Read some history and get some perspective.

Meh.

TF

Kid Salami said...

Motley Fool says

"Kyle Bass gets it imo, at least insofar as gold is the solution, though he may not understand the exact mechanics."

Seriously, this place has become comedy gold. Everyone here theorises endlessly and in circles about when - not if, but when (as obviously as night follows day) - gold is going to "come out of hiding" at $50K, this resurrection like future event.

Kyle Bass is a billionaire due to his calls in the last crisis, has his own research teams, is telling Joe Bloggs not to invest/trade but to buy and hold gold (and do so in yen ideally was his long term advice to the ) and just generally being smart and sensible in the real world. Yet blog commenters sitting in their underwear casually assert that he may not "understand the mechanics". You really have to laugh.

DP said...

I think I need to get out more.

Anonymous said...

Kid Salami said...
“Kyle Bass is a (paper) billionaire due to his calls in the last crisis.”

I’m sure he is also a multi-millionaire in directly held hard assets as well; but assuming he doesn’t have any inside deal with the Kleptocracy, his paper will burn in the end and he will be left with only the hard assets he directly holds.

I do agree though there isn’t a shrimp alive that wouldn’t want to have such problems of being bumped down from a paper billionaire to mere hard assets multi-millionaire. To be so blessed.

In any ponzi scheme though there are winners and losers; Kyle is just really good at front running the ponzi scheme. But what a ponzi scheme gives it can just as easily take away. Thus even if you play in these waters its good every once in a while to cash out some of your winnings from the casino.

AT said...

@Kid Salami: Kyle Bass has an estimated net worth of $165 million. Warren Buffett has an estimated net worth of $85 billion. Warren Buffett disagrees with Kyle Bass on just about everything. Therefore Kyle Bass is a clueless ignoramus who has no idea what he's talking about. QED.

Anonymous said...

Motley Fool said...
“It's not so crazy. The bulk(say 19 billion ounces) of that stockpile is in sterling, which is uneconomical at present to refine into industrial use purity.”

So let me understand this; you think that mining for silver still occurs because it’s easier to process a dump truck load of mostly dirt into a few ozs of silver than refine 92% silver into 99.99% silver? Seriously? Taking something from 0.001% silver to 99.99% silver is ‘easier’ than from 92% to 99.99%. Now that is crazy.

Actually the real reason is that the value added to the silver in crafting it into various forms is a significant if not a dominate portion of the items total value at present raw metal prices. So in melting it down you destroy value regardless of the silver purity.

This is why silver in monetary form is actually significantly rarer than gold in a monetary form. A very recent and thus unprecedented reversal in human history I might add. Ever heard of the pound sterling? Was something of a going concern at one time, if I recall, sun never setting on its vast trade empire and all that. How about the monetary metal used for centuries by the most populated nation on Earth? Still doesn’t ring a bell? How about ancient Rome? Surely, you must have read about those guys at some point in your life? Big empire, lasted for hundreds of years?

See the key is not the metal but whether it can act as money; which begins with first having the metal of choice in a ‘form’ that can behave as money (ie coins). Of course we already have that in place for both gold and silver right now. What is missing is that the tax code needs to be changed to eliminate taxes on it. Now in the future it could just be gold, gold and silver, gold and moon dust, but then again maybe not. Row well and live you net producing shrimp (que the sound of whip cracking).

So don’t you worry your little head about silver now, at a sufficient price and tax policy these tea sets will be turned right back into a monetary form so fast that it will make your head spin. But even then we will still only have 4 oz of silver for every 1 oz of gold nowhere close to the historic 15/1. So I agree re-achieving this historic monetary ratio will be a bit of problem.

I know, we can just mine more? Oh wait I forgot what is still in the ground is needed for industrial uses and will require increasing amounts of increasingly expensive energy to extract, so I think the odds of mankind ever re-achieving a 15/1 above ground monetary ratio will never happen going forward.

Looks like silver will never again be significantly more plentifully in above ground monetary form than it is now in non-monetary form. Yep, looks like you’re right again, even in the best case scenario we may get back to a 4/1 ratio of monetary silver to monetary gold. The future sure looks grim for poor old silver. Not anything like the good old days when its above ground ratio was 15/1 and its price was 1/15 relative to gold.

Hey quick math quiz, What does 15/1 x 1/15 equal?

Here is a hint, it’s the same as 4/1 x 1/4

Anonymous said...

Edwardo,

Not so good that Obama is snubbing Putin at the September G20 meeting, where one of the topics will be the future of the world's currency regime.

Puerile. This country is so done.

said...

Spaul

Many things can act as a medium of exchange and many things can store value. That isn't the point, but you and nearly every silverbug always focus on it. Don't look at where we have been but where we are going.

Edwardo said...

Sir Tagio,

Obama's comment chiding The Russians for their Cold War thinking/behavior was rich. The U.S. has been bested, and it would be better if they just accepted that and moved on. From that standpoint, I agree that this response is childish.

Polly Metallic said...

I usually have my finger on the delete button as I skim through the I Love Silver scenarios. I caught the part about monetary silver at 4:1 with gold. I have no idea where that came from, but from being in the buying end of the business we see one gold coin to about a hundred pounds of silver dollars and 90% junk. Very few people own gold now, or ever have owned gold coins. A great number of people own coffee cans and shoe boxes full of silver coins. We've bought three collections of silver coins in the last two weeks. And we flip them the same day or the next day in most cases, make our 10% and move on.

Sam said...

@Spaul

What is the gold to copper ratio? What about the gold to platinum ratio? How about the gold to oil ratio? How many ounces of gold to buy a good men’s suit? How about gold vs. the median value of a home? Here: have a ball at this website: http://pricedingold.com/us-home-prices/

Now. After all of your charts and historical data are properly pinned on the walls of your home Beautiful mind style you will see a number of trends, forecasts, and arbitrage opportunities for the future. Some may take a little activism and PR on your part so I suggest joining some groups to get out the word. I mean if people only knew that “insert commodity” was historically at a “insert ratio” and now is at a “insert higher ratio” they would see the great opportunity in buying “insert commodity” that exists today. You of course are at the cutting edge because you discovered this trend early so you will get in real cheap and then as the others see you and your activist group’s brilliant logic they will follow closely behind making a smaller but still decent profit.

Unfortunately you will struggle to get anywhere with the regulars of this blog. You see this place is about a planned political instantaneous revaluation of a single commodity in isolation. This isn’t a game of highlander where there “can only be one,” its real life where cost-benefit analysis forces planners to ask and answer the question, “should there be two.” That question has been asked and answered and if you really read and comprehended this blog you wouldn’t still have questions on it.

So the way I see it you either:

1) Don’t understand the freegold thesis.

2) Understand it but think silver will also experience an instantaneous revaluation alongside gold. Some would say that means you don’t understand it but maybe you have some evidence to share

3) Disagree with the thesis and think there will not be an instantaneous revaluation in which case I assume you think we will have a strong to the moon bull run in gold and silver.

The trouble with the third option is those ratios and historical charts on your walls are nothing more than really heavy weights for gold but also for each other. It’s why no one here is predicting the continuation of a gold bull run because it is really an economy crushing commodity run. Try picking up your precious silver by itself. Heavy isn’t it? Stifling really. 5,000 other ratio watchers must lifted by you as well. I hope you have been working out. Because unfortunately for you they would all see the rise in silver as a drop in the silver “insert commodity” ratio. A signal that it’s time to sell silver and buy “insert commodity.”

Anonymous said...

Polly Metallic said...
“I caught the part about monetary silver at 4:1 with gold. I have no idea where that came from….”

Below is the same link you ‘skimmed’ across the last time.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/world/silver/silver.html

Its 4/1 based on above ground mass. If you switch to just the portion of the metal that is in monetary form right now, than silver is actually more rare than gold. Again at a sufficiently high enough price, those tea sets will be monetized as well, no doubt. But as I said silver must receive the same tax treatment as gold for that to happen. Right now the Kleptocracy hates and taxes the daylights out of both equally hard for us little shrimp. Now if for whatever reason the Kleptocrats decide that gold and gold alone will be given that treatment, than silver will not achieve monetary orbit. Amen, this is why I ‘also’ own a lot of gold.

Polly Metallic said...
“, but from being in the buying end of the business we see one gold coin to about a hundred pounds of silver dollars and 90% junk. Very few people own gold now, or ever have owned gold coins. A great number of people own coffee cans and shoe boxes full of silver coins. We've bought three collections of silver coins in the last two weeks. And we flip them the same day or the next day in most cases, make our 10% and move on.”

And I thank for that because I have 8x the gold I would have had if I was a gold only buyer. The high GSR is giving me yet another chance to improve on even that number right now. What I have observed is that when gold climbs silver climbs faster and it’s the same in the down direction. The other thing I have noticed is that in the upswing the dealers can’t keep silver in stock. Even now it takes twice as long to get silver as gold delivered. Funny how you can’t seem to keep in stock even now at such a higher GSR.

See that is where this gold bug that holds a lot of silver comes in to save the day and do an exchange of silver for gold at the low GSR typical of price spikes. Dealers don’t care they are just happy to have the flow in order to make the 10% spread.

It’s just so funny to be called a silver bug by some of you when I have so much gold. For some people on this board the mere mention of silver is like a dog whistle. So by all means if you want less gold for your hard earned currency ignore silver.

Now I have no idea how long this type of trade will work, could end tomorrow as I wake up to watch the G20 announce that Freegold has arrived and what silver I have is now trash. It could be next year, it could be never.

All I know is that I like gold so much that I’m willing to buy silver in order to get more of it.

Polly Metallic said...

The better plan to get more gold using silver is not to buy silver it's to short silver. The GSR continues to widen as silver increasingly underperforms. Your plan is working in reverse and has been working in reverse since the GSR was about 34:1 in 2011.

Bright aurum said...

Sam said
'..It’s why no one here is predicting the continuation of a gold bull run because it is really an economy crushing commodity run...'
Could you please elaborate.
Is this not the only way to crush the $IMS once and for all. Does the US` waning support not come from the US$ being strong in oil? And as a consequence of that is it not that the US` agricultural production comes reasonably 'priced'; giving the US a continuously good standing with the oil exporting and food importing countries in the Middle East.

Bright aurum said...

@ all
Ever wondered why did the POOil faired so good when the bull commodity market 'ended'.
1). It kept the USD in demand.
2). It meant that the oil producing nations were first in line to get food.
Which countries expanded their gold reserves (officially)?
Those able to feed themselves and/or producing gold/oil/things others needed. Do they needed dollars to recycle into UST? Obviously not. Others not so lucky have got to trade extensively their resources just to stay afloat keeping the reserve currency issuer happy as well as their oil buddies.

One Bad Adder said...

spaul67:- All I know is that I like gold so much that I’m willing to buy silver in order to get more of it.

Amen to that Bro!

The "transition" to FreeGold WON'T be via "decree" as most here seem to favour IMHO (imagine THAT! - Fiat FreeGold ;-)...and during the course of said transition, it's totally feasable ...nay inevitable, that the GSR will revert to the mean ...and some!

Unknown said...

Yes E,
I think the current exyent of backwardation may indeed inspire another great post like this one:
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/07/red-alert-gold-backwardation.html

Unknown said...

(an exyent of course being the antecedent of the formeryent)

Anonymous said...

@Sam

Option 1;
I think I do, just not in cult like way that is all. Thus I’m able to challenge various assumptions and arrive at different paths to the same end in most cases. Many times how you get somewhere is more important than where you are going.

Option 2:
Too hard to tell at this point; what I have observed though is that the higher the price of gold goes up the faster silver goes up (ie GSR compression). But the key question is not that but how will it be treated relative to capital gains in the future. The very same issue for gold BTW. Now the fact that CBs hold about 15% of the gold and may use 20% of that stock to help make the market for currency is an important advantage for gold. But most of the gold that will form the foundation of the next monetary system will ‘not’ be from the CB stocks. In fact the CB float is barely above the annually mining supply. At the right price and under the right tax treatment gold will flow and the vast majority of that flow will not be from the CB stocks. Silver is no different in this regard. It will flow at the right price and under the right tax conditions as well.

Option 3:
Too hard to tell at this point as well; my guess is that first we will have a collapse in the existing monetary order. In order to enable trade to flow once again (less than a month) a substance that has significant above ground stock, that can’t be printed by any nation, at a sufficiently high enough price will fill the gap in order to perform the role that the petro-dollar does now. Gold is clearly the first jet on deck at this point. At the same time I don’t think you can rule out silver or any other substance that net producers may want to be paid in. Especially if the relative value of gold gets out of hand. Remember it’s the net producer that sets the terms not the net consumer. For example for a time Libya had an oil for wheat trade agreement with the Ukrainian.

Expanding upon this, I could very easily see a type of barter arbitrage forming for about the top 200 traded commodities with the double coincident of wants being resolved via super computers. Everything would be priced in terms of everything else with gold as a unit of account.

See I don’t think the world will be as cult like as some of those on this board are. There objective is to make the trade while also not been stuck with a lot of another nations paper IOUs at the end of the year. Just like the medieval fair example that FOFOA used so well. Only a little gold is needed to lubricate the system, which is the elegance of it all. The very same system with silver flowing all over the place. This means that sometimes, dare I say it; someone will even exchange gold for silver as payment in full. Especially in nations that don’t tax silver. In short order a nation that still taxes silver because, after all only gold should be ‘granted’ this treatment, will pay increasingly higher prices in terms of gold or the won’t have any at all. This is always the problem with any attempts at imposing artificial barriers or ratios to trade. Doesn’t’ matter what it is.

I guess I’m just more a free market type. Forgive me if I just a little under impressed by handing the keys to the very say Kleptocracy that got us into this mess in the first place. Here ye Here ye your benevolent overlords have declared gold and only gold tax free. There isn’t a person or committee on Earth that can come close to the collective wisdom of six billion people.

Here is a good primer on Elitism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0MESB6VZM4

So the elite may attempt to drive a price of gold that is 100x higher in terms of all other lesser stores of value than it is now but the super organism may have other plans in the terms of acceptable payment in full for net production.

said...

Spaul

You have no keys to turn over. Neither you or your silver stacking YouTube friends. You will get no vote, neither will they. Focal point is gold, if it changes my views will change.

Anonymous said...

Polly Metallic said...
"The better plan to get more gold using silver is not to buy silver it's to short silver. The GSR continues to widen as silver increasingly underperforms. Your plan is working in reverse and has been working in reverse since the GSR was about 34:1 in 2011."

It’s actually a very simple set of rules I use.
I only exchange silver for gold when its GSR is half what it was when I bought the silver. Likewise I only trade gold for silver when its GSR is double of what it was when I bought it. On top of that at no time do I allow the ratio of what I hold to go beyond 30/70 or 70/30 in terms of currency price. While this is going on I continue to convert excess paper into gold or silver depending on all the above giving my stock any number of GSR at the time of purchase. So the silver I purchased last week will be exchanged for gold at a GSR of about 32. That gold in turn will be exchange for silver if the GSR ever goes back down to 64. So basically this doubles the amount of gold I could have bought last week with the same currency. One more up and down and its 4x and so on. Do I miss the tops and miss the bottoms? You bet. Does it matter? Not really I’m still doubling the gold that I float at each upswing and doubling the amount of silver I hold at each downswing. Just like a pump only its used to pump gold my direction rather than water. A gold pump with a silver piston you might say.

Anonymous said...

Luke said...
“Focal point is gold”

My focal point is gold as well that’s why I’m trying to get more of it for the currency I have available and any silver left over will be used to protect it.

DP said...

Thanks much, spaul, for making your position crystal clear to all who shall pass as they RTFB. I believe the position of us zealots is also clear to all who have eyes to see.

Good luck with the ratio arb. I hope that silver leverage works out well for you. :-)

Dante_Eu said...

Look here, I remember when BitCoin discussion went here, July 2011, I laughed. What was the Gold:BitCoin ratio then? Maybe 150 (Gold=$1.500, BitCoin=$10)

Todays ratio? 13 (Gold=$1.300, BitCoin=$100).

So BitCoins, Silver, particular Shares, Baseball cards...anything can be converted (ratio wise) to gold.

So what I am trying to say: nothing is written in the stars. Except the stars themselves. No news there. :-)

Dante_Eu said...

Make that June 2011. :D

One Bad Adder said...

THIS is todays T-10 Auction result.
It's worth noting a few salient points - a fairly benign 2.5 Bid-to-cover ...comparatively speaking - the B-t-C on 3-month T's is currently hovering around 4.8 ...and considering this $24B Auction is a "Monthly" event compared to the "Weekly" $30B 3-Mo Auctions, one gets the distinct impression Mr Market is "hell-bent" ..Fed acquisitions / involvement notwithstanding. FWIW.

tintin said...

Anybody still watching GLD?

It lost another 4.5tons of gold today: gold holding dropped to 910.53tons

Roacheforque said...

"Breakdown" in 2008, 2010, 2013 (did he mean backwardation?) convexity, indirect exchange, interest rate swaps, TNX.

#breakdowns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3putiJp-Eug

byiamBYoung said...

Tintin,

I'm watching. It's like watching an ocean liner lumbering toward an iceburg. That, the GOFO, the India/Pakistan gold story, and the Central banks digging in their heels for the most part with their gold holdings.

This sure isn't the way the world looked a year ago.

Cheers

Motley Fool said...

spaul

On the surface of it your critique, specifically : "So let me understand this; you think that mining for silver still occurs because it’s easier to process a dump truck load of mostly dirt into a few ozs of silver than refine 92% silver into 99.99% silver?" , makes me look quite the fool eh.

Pity you didn't bother thinking a bit more.

What is the cost per ounce of silver per dirt heap mining versus having to buy sterling silver off the market and refining it further?

Oh that's right, sterling silver isn't lying around in heaps in people's trashcans for easy pickup and refinement. How sad.

As to history. It is not only important to understand what happened, but also why it happened. Full marks to you for quoting historical 'what happened' uses of silver. No marks for why.

Here's a hint, 'why' determines the future, not 'what'.

As to historical ratios. They have no predictive value.

What is the ratio of silver to copper above ground? What is the price ratio? What abut lead to tungsten? Etc.

Oh, that's right. The GSR, in the sense you use it, is simply the marxist labour theory of value in disguise.

Here's a hint. In the real world, the function and demand of an item is what determines it's price.

The reason gold and silver had a small GSR ratio range historically is because they shared the same function. Even today this is not true, with silver at 50% industrial use and gold at 10% at most. In future this will be even less true, making the whole of the GSR idiocy irrelevant.

TF

Wil (from a derivative of that other account) said...

OH WISE BIMBY! All roads now do converge, do they not?

It better end soon, my friend.

Sam said...

@ Bright


“Could you please elaborate. 

Is this not the only way to crush the $IMS once and for all.”

No. Not only is it not the only way but it is certainly not the preferred way to transition to a new monetary system.

"Does the US` waning support not come from the US$ being strong in oil?"

The US $ is the world reserve currency. Reserve currencies will always have backing or the system won’t work. When the $ broke from gold backing it found strength in the fact that it functioned in the purchase of oil. But this didn’t just magically happen. In fact there was a bit of a “crisis” at first as oil rejected the dollar and bid directly for gold. Nobody was happy with the dark destination that path was quickly leading to. So a deal was made. Even after the deal understand that dollars didn’t price oil, oil's asking price gave value to dollars. Productivity from oil outpaced inflation and things stabilized so you could say we had a de facto oil backed dollar.

For more on the deal read Gold, Oil, and Money in the Free Market by Aristotle. http://www.fofoa.blogspot.com/2009/07/gold-oil-and-money-in-free-market.html

byiamBYoung said...

Wil (from what surely is a fully allocated account),

The headlights...they're... they're...so beautiful....

Jeff said...

Freegold will certainly be by decree; just not the decree of a government or millions of clueless everymen hoarding commodities. That diktat will come from the people who actually matter. Call the Giants.

BLONDIE: You see, my friend, in this world there are two types of people: those who PRODUCE, and those who consume. YOU consume.

Those who PRODUCE, and there is perfectly good reason why it is written in caps, are giants. Everyone else, including YOU, is a shrimp.

You may appreciate that we need gold to fix our monetary system, but that does not mean you actually understand how gold really functions.

Gold functions as the ultimate store of value. Nice words, nice idea, but you are a shrimp. You’ve never had value in a quantity that needed storing. Sure you may have “savings”, but you’ve never personally experienced diminishing marginal utility to the degree that gold’s function becomes apparent, so it remains a theory. There is a monumental difference between mere theory and theory corroborated by experience. The latter has graduated from theory to fact.


One Bad Adder said...

@Jeff ...and by proxy, Blondie: - There is an evolving definitive path to FreeGold whereby all-and-sundry (Giants AND Shrimp alike) will become reacquainted with the structural monetary necessity of riskless (aka Free) GOLD (as opposed to $PoG) - No "decree" by Gov, Giants or otherwise required IMHO.

...but we're not there yet ...ITMT we produce, consume ...and accumulate - each to their own understanding.

Sam said...

+1 Jeff

One Bad Adder said...

...and HERE'S a good site to come to grips with Global Bonds and whatnot. NB: the CHF-denominated T's ...which IMHO speaks volumes re: GOFO and $PoG futures backwardation FWIW.

Bright aurum said...

Yes Sam
I pretty much like the way you have summarized 'the path to glory' for the USD after 1971.
Now put that into reverse and you will see how the dollar gets undone. You can start with the POOil moving in lock step with the EURO then you can continue with it loosing its 'reserve' function as less and less CBs want to have it as a reserve on the asset side of their balance sheets, then 'the deal' is over since gold stops flowing .... basically you`ve got the idea.

Bright aurum said...

Oh Sam,
Almost forgot. And when you reach the crisis part of the reverse story of the dollar, make it a food crisis because of the inner competition/rationing of oil within the USA, the HprI of the $ and the social unrest that comes with it.

Sam said...

@Spaul


I disagree that you have challenged any freegold assumptions, at least not successfully. Of course you continue to claim your endless efforts have lead you to the same end as the rest of us. So in that case congrats. I suppose if you own and hold physical gold, and you think it is because you pray to the sun God Apollo each morning, by all means keep praying and stacking and you will be just fine.

“what I have observed though is that the higher the price of gold goes up the faster silver goes up (ie GSR compression)”

This is paper gold and paper silver chart tracking trader nonsense. I’m not sure why you can’t see that it has nothing to do with the physical metal called silver. You claim you are trading/gambling to make a profit and then supposedly buying gold with your profits. Good for you. If you were trading the Gold “X” Ratio it wouldn’t be an argument for the benevolence of “X”

“At the right price and under the right tax treatment gold will flow and the vast majority of that flow will not be from the CB stocks. Silver is no different in this regard. It will flow at the right price and under the right tax conditions as well.”

Flow to who? Only the big guys matter. A super producer does not care about the price of the wealth asset they choose to save in. Just that it flows. This is important to understand because the rest of us do care and it is really hard to imagine not caring. To literally have everything you could ever want to buy or own from your daily production and still have so much left over that you must sit and contemplate what to do with it all without having to slow production or hurt society in anyway. That is why A/FOA said follow in the footsteps of Giants or FOFOA said think like a Giant. Because we believe we have discovered the solution some at the top levels have put into motion and therefore have an opportunity. Since Giants don’t want to damage industry and global economies as a whole they chose an asset that has all the qualities a wealth asset should INCLUDING the most uselessness in any other role other than wealth preservation. Picking one is bad enough, to pick two or more would be counter-productive to the goal. They aren’t looking to arb or even make a profit with their savings. In fact they would happily take a small loss in exchange for keeping a low profile.

One Bad Adder said...

Sam: - You might say spaul67 (and myself to a large degree) are somewhat guilty of Talking the Chalk ...and Walking the Cheese eh?

One Bad Adder said...

...meanwhile, back in the Asylum - Our $hort-end convergence is coming along swimmingly, albeit flirting with Danger.
ANY little global monetary hiccup nowadays will send these scurrying in the opposite direction - big-time methinks.

JoyOfLearning said...

ein anderer: thanks for the interview link. I've gotten the book and got a bit through it. To be honest I'm a bit dissapointed, as indeed I felt like the author was a journalist type, (confirmed indeed by the interview link). For those here I'd call the book a view of the BIS from the outside with an anglo-american view of the world, combined with that typical journalist semi-socialist envy/moralist perspective.

I was hoping for more bigger picture world and historical view but instead the author focuses a lot on individuals and low level stories, while a bit pushing his moralistic viewpoint, for exemple by constantly underlining how the BIS helped sell stolen gold by not actively taking political sides. Still, it's nice to know the story, even the dirty laundry. I know every institution/state once formed will do almost anything for it's survival, though overall the BIS as presented in the book so far seems to stand for values which I believe are good for humanity (trade even during changes and less govt powers). Looking forward to go further into the book to find out more.

Bright aurum said...

OBA
I don`t want to be adding to your bad any further but you are a bit Mortymering at the moment. If you ADD to the explanatory side of your conclusions and BAD a little on your observations you just might fare a bit better ;-)

michael3c2000 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
KnallGold said...

"Seriously, this place has become comedy gold. Everyone here theorizes endlessly and in circles about when - not if, but when (as obviously as night follows day) - gold is going to "come out of hiding" at $50K, this resurrection like future event. "-- Kid Salami

Resurrection day? Sorry but now I can't resist to reference to The Cults "Resurrection Joe" : "This is the resurrection, Yea, of the good times ..." . Hey, and its just a damned good song!

I hope spaul will now also see that the Cult thingy has some irony attached... So, Ressurrection Elixir, get you some!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRae2dRbc-0


And while at irony, CNBC says "Why Gold may be dead money" - unintentionally, they really might be onto something! Usually, such an article marked a major turning point.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/talking-numbers/why-gold-may-dead-money-095721496.html

It surely was interesting to read a couple of weeks ago that Hungary wants to throw out the IMF, and EU's Viviane Reding wants the IMF out of the Troika. "No more necessary".

One Bad Adder said...

B a: - will endeavour to be a little less obtuse in future ;-)

Wil (from a derivative of that other account) said...

I hereby nominate BIMBY for next FED Chairman. At least we will have wit, and humor, and finally someone who "understands the price of gold".

Then, once firmly ensconced, BIMBY will announce that "After having fully surveyed the situation, FREEGOLD is the only way forward."

And upon that announcement, he will sit back in the Barcalounger, buttered popcorn in bowl, and simply watch it happen.

The system is so vulnerable to even the whisper of the manipulator in cheif, that it will thus transpire, finally and forever.

GO BIMBY!

Happy Trail!

Edwardo said...

I think the word you're looking for, OBA, is abstruse
not obtuse.

Edwardo said...

Not obtuse.

Indenture said...

Gold, Oil and Money in the Free Market
GOLD & MONEY: More Than Meets the Eye
By Aristotle
Written in 1999

byiamBYoung said...

Wil,

A solid proposal, indeed. I'd also proclaim silver to be the new barbarous relic.

Bimbnanke

Anonymous said...

Sam said...
“Since Giants don’t want to damage industry and global economies”

Yes I understand that but consider this; first gold does have few important niche roles in industry. In fact because of this loss we ‘only’ have an 80 year supply above ground or so. Not a long time in the context of the written human history of over 5,000 years.

Second, somehow the same industry that uses silver has gotten along just fine with all those tea sets just gathering dust in the corner, about a 60 year supply overhang. I’m also sure that just like gold a higher silver price would drive industry to become more efficient with its use.

In this regard I’m with Bill Still, it doesn’t matter what money is only that its quantity is somehow regulated. Now forcing people to spend time and energy in order to increase the supply of money is just a means of achieving that objective (i.e. mining). The fundamental problem with paper money is its all too easy create and thus abuse thereby transferring the wealth of society to those with the money power.

This is the fundamental battle we have with the Giants as you call them. As long as they can place a tax on gold it cannot operate as money. The simple fact is that they don’t want a competitor to the existing paper money system that they use to their benefit. See using gold or silver as the foundation of the monetary system ultimately gives the money power back to the net producers.

Many of these so called super producers or giants are actually parasites. The real producers are the 9.99% not the 90% or the 0.01%. The 0.01% give the 90% a portion of the net production they steal from the 9.99% to keep them in power via mob rule (i.e. majority rules democracy).

So we have a number of villagers protecting the dragon that sits on the pile of gold.

Michael dV said...

Spaul
I'm sure you realize that every aspect of your comment has been covered by fofoa. At least go back and show us where he is wrong rather than just repeating his observations (that led to his comments).
If you do not realize that he has covered them...why do you post here? Why not on some silver blog?
Respect yourself man, show some intellect.

H. M. Socialist said...

@spaul

Many of these so called super producers or giants are actually parasites. The real producers are the 9.99% not the 90% or the 0.01%.

Yessss!! Silver comrades, take up your silver swords, shields and sharts! We are teh 9.99%!!! Together we shall slay the parasitic class enemy, the .01%, who is responsible for all of our problems!! Let us also slay anyone who does not display sufficient silver revolutionary fervor! Together we can make silver the focal point!

Vive la revolution! Death to bourgeois freegolder class enemies!

GREETZ

tEON said...

Unrelated newish Silver Futurist video
Motley Fool predicted $18 silver in 2011!
A lot about the hatred of Silverites against those who make predictions that the price will fall.

Sam said...

Michael dV is of course right....and as my venom and empathy is running low (and days off from work) I'll shorten my response to you Spaul. I only request that you place those large bags you snuck onto the trail over by the edge and (re)read think like a Giant 1 and 2. The definitions you are applying to Giant, producer, parasites, ect. are common misconceptions usually found coming from a precious metals bug new to the blog.

For instance try digesting these lines and you will see what I mean: 1) Warren buffet is not a Giant.
2) The guy that makes 150k per year, pays 50k in taxes and doesn't take a single government handout isn't necessarily a producer.
3) The US government is not a Giant
4) zero Giants are parasites

Motley Fool said...

Just to be clear, gary. I am not that Motley Fool. :)

As regards silver predictions, I made none on price. I did however predict a GSR of 20,000 or so briefly, shortly after transition. ^^

tEON said...

@Motley Fool

Ohh yeah - I realize - Motley - should have stated as much - thought it was obvious to any who listen to the Futurist piece. I thought his observations were mildly appropriate to the current discussion. Yes - you are 20,000:1 Jim is 50,000:1 (beer to the closest? :)

BTW, I will have a martini tonight on the return of the HMS!! Made my day!

burningfiat said...

Gary,

I'm with you in pouring an extra cup tonight! H. M. Socialist is the best! Commies FTW! :D

Bright aurum said...

Oh come on H. M. Socialist
You`ll need something much more up-to-date weaponry like this , silver bullets and the like if we are going to purge this blog out of the FG counter-revolutionaries.

Phat Repat said...

Unless FG shall be upon us soon, and I really haven't seen anyone here with reliable predictive skills, the GSR looks to have topped and will break the 50 day SMA should things hold.

Many here sound more like religious fanatics unable to entertain another viewpoint allowing for the accumulation of MORE gold prior to reset (though I probably wouldn't play the ratio the other way by trading out of gold; given my conservative nature).

This blog now consists of a few posters all nodding in agreement kinda like this...

Bright aurum said...

burningfiat
This epic call to arms is much more appropriate and it is showing the Silver Army at its best fighting the evil J.P. Morgan, Goldman Sacks and so on, you name it, or could it have.

Bright aurum said...

@ all
I feel so much relief (tears of gratitude coming out and so on) that commenters such as spaul and Phat Repat are showing us freegolders that everything we anticipate is fools` game because we do not have hands yet to touch this much more just world we believe in and we do not have feet yet to walk the earth of the worthy, but ,oh boy, haven`t we grown hearts to feel it and put our minds to see how it works.

Phat Repat said...

And as Exhibit A, I give you Bright aurum

UFO Believers vs. Religious Believers

Sam said...

Who: 2+2 = 4

What: nah it’s 5

Where: I think it’s 3

Who: trust me, it’s 4

What: It may be 4 but I think it’s also 5

Who: No it’s only 4, all the time, no exceptions

Where: historically, before people could add, it was sometimes 3!

What: I know it is 4, but 5 is close to 4, and if it isn’t 4 right away it could be 5 for while as well. I switch back and forth between 5 and 4 with the goal of ending up at 4….but sometimes 5.

Where: Good point. 3 anyone?

Who: WTF…its 4.

Where: you gotta entertain other points of view bra!

What: yeah what is this come kind of cult!

Where/What: hahahahahahahahahahaaaa

DP said...

How about When and Why: They said 4 too … go figure!

Bright aurum said...

O.K. Phat Expat / Repat (I lost track) why don`t you tell us who are you and where are you heading, what is your purpose in life. Or drift into the 'meaningful' nothingness or somethingness you came from and be satisfied with it.

Knotty Pine said...

Nice to see you back H.M. Socialist! Someone needs to stand up to these evil freebanksters! Now if only we could get Tranny back!

Edwardo said...

Sam wrote:

The US government is not a Giant.

They are a paper tiger.

Nickelsaver said...

Don't forget How!

M said...

Central bankers make it seem like they are doing the average debtor a favor by inflating away their debt. But these morons have to realize that the longer this goes on at this speed, the more equity they will end up wiping out too. In places like Canada and Australia and some parts of the US, debtors have made 5 more years of payments on over-valued real estate since 2008. At least if it blew up better in 2008, way more people would have forclosed and we would have had a real recession. Now what do people do ? Walk away after making 5 years of payments ?

M said...

I keep bringing this up but I would really like a quick answer or two on it.

When a Chinese exporter sells something to an American, the Americans money goes to the CB of China and the Chinese CB prints the equivalent amount of Yuan and gives it to the exporter.(Because the Chinese dont use the $ as an MOE) Then the Chinese CB is still stuck with these dollars. So the CB takes the US dollars and buys treasuries with it.

If the Chinese CB did not exist, and the Chinese exporter took the dollars in exchanging himself, then only one version of the purchasing power would exist. All the exporter would do is go on a holiday to the US or something to spend the dollars that he made.

This is beyond a ponzi scheme. It is a ponzi squared.

Am I wrong ? Is there really 2 versions of the same purchasing power out there ?

FOFOA said...

Hello M,

This is what "exporting our inflation" means. If, as you say, the PBoC didn't exist and the Chinese exporter simply spent the dollars, the inflation would come back home to the US. But because the PBoC creates a local currency unit for every dollar received, that inflation stays there in China rather than coming back to the US. They exported goods, and we exported inflation. Seen from the other direction, we imported goods and they imported inflation.

It is very simply a "monetary operation" choice of the PBoC that has the effect of supporting the dollar and suppressing (weakening) the yuan. It is not creating two versions of the same purchasing power, it is simply a transfer of purchasing power from the yuan to the dollar. More specifically, it is a transfer of purchasing power from every Chinese person sitting on a yuan balance to the USG. Back when they were also buying MBS, it was a transfer from the Chinese people holding yuan to the USG and the American homebuyers.

The Chinese exporter could, theoretically, preempt this CB operation by simply spending those dollars as you say, either on something from the US or on, say, importing some gold. But, for the most part, it seems that they'd rather have a yuan balance so they pass the option off to their CB.

Sincerely,
FOFOA

Unknown said...

FOFOA:
A solid answer on dollars, and yet, "the US unit is only an exchange medium to acquire assets valued in dollars. US government bonds are the usual holding. No CB holds any currency! They hold the bonds of that currency."

And so today, we have indirect transfer of bonds into gold and equities in the most wonderfully creative ways.

Water always flows, seeking its own level.

Unknown said...

"According to media reports of early July, the People's Bank of China is mulling the possibility of phasing out the dollar as the reference currency for the yuan exchange rate, and to start using gold as the reference point."

Isn't it interesting how the term "reference point" is used in a Russian news story about China, instead of the universally accepted term "backing" or "pegged"? It may creep back into the conversation, but the changes ... they are a coming.

These discussions have been under way for some time behind the curtain of "public view" and we the "public" of a cult forum are merely the candle of thought that lights this side of the curtain.

Happy Trail!

byiamBYoung said...

To continue torturing the metaphor...

And the winds of change are blowing that curtain, and it billows ever closer to said candle of thought.

Someone hand me a marshmallow!

Cheers

Knotty Pine said...

The empire strikes back!

Maybe this would be a good business to consider. :<)

Woland said...

meanwhile, over at Jaime Town, an interesting BIS paper:

Aug. 8,2013
"Sovereign Risk: a world without risk free assets?"
Read the opening remarks by Jaime Caruna, and also the short

"Think the Unthinkable on U.S. debt" (all at BIS.org)

{;<)>>

Bright aurum said...

Woland, still nothing about the 2 guys?

MatrixSentry said...

Jesse is talking GLD quite a bit lately. He referenced VtC's fine article GLD - The Central Bank of the Bullion Banks, but he apparently didn't absorb what I absorbed by reading it. He hasn't argued the plausibility of the arbitrage only argument with any vigor, but apparently has an open mind if not bias toward the coat check theory. He just posted today an anonymous source that says GLD is being folded down in order to ship gold to the East.

I just re-read Who is Draining GLD, GLD - The Central Bank of the Bullion Banks, and GLD Talk Continued to freshen up my understanding.

Conclusion: a lot of time is being wasted here talking about gold to silver ratios. Tectonic plates are on the move. Better get ready people.

Woland said...

Sorry, Bright arum, I never understood your question.

Bright aurum said...

Woland
Didn`t you research the two significant ones, the originators of the ideas inspiring this very blog.

Unknown said...

Woland,
Can you paste that link please? It sounds important.

Matrix,
My thoughts exactly. We've seen FREEGOLD false flags before, but things are really getting in the face lately.

As noted above, the winds of change are blowing that curtain again behind which stands the Great and Powerful oz.

That candle of thought may be transforming into a million candle-power Fresnel lens.

Enough perhaps to start a paper blaze?

Woland said...

Bright arum;

I only "researched" FOA, and that was ONLY to the extent of reading
relevant quotes from the old USA Gold forum archives, stored here
courtesy of Solitary Monk. The only thing I "know for sure" about
Another, (if FOA's statement is credible), is that he was English. We
know a lot more "about" FOA, such as his long standing friendship
with the late George P. Mitchell, (courtesy of Jeff) just not who he is,
(or was).

Wil: I don't do paste. Just google BIS, the website is BIS.org. It's the
first item you see, August 8. I don't say it's important, just (to me)
rather interesting.

Anonymous said...

Risk-free assets in financial markets
Alberto Giovannini

http://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap72m.pdf

Page 5, last paragraph
“Hence the sovereign crisis in Europe has stirred a process of disintegration of
the financial system. More narrowly, it has demonstrated that a truly integrated
system needs one single reference asset.”

Sounds familiar.

Unknown said...

Thanks Woland, didn't realize it was right there on the home page. In case it gets pushed further down, here is the destination:

http://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap72.htm

This is actually a series of panel discussions held in January 2013 (a lot has happened since, obviously) broken down into short PDFs.

VERY interesting indeed, especially the last 2 from Panel III, which I thought were quite important.

When the BIS publishes items like this, it's king of like Bernanke's Father talking.

When 'Nanke speaks the markets move a little, but when his Father interrupts ... Giants have spoken.

db said...

Hi Spaul, we ALL know that you buy silver in order to get more gold, so that's it ...

You've shared your thoughts enough times, so please STOP. I'm pretty sure that IF (and that's a big IF) somebody wants to learn more about your theories he/she will ask you.

If you have questions regarding FG that do not involve silver, I'm sure the regulars will gladly answer them, otherwise STFU, there are lots of silverite blogs around.

It's annoying to always have a trollish commenter; as soon as we get rid of the current one, another one pops up.

Bright aurum said...

Thank you Woland.
So may be I should ask the people close to Mr. George P. Mitchell, heirs and such for the FOA`s identity.

DP said...

spaul,

Just wanted to say thanks for that BIS link.

Cheers! ;-)

Franco said...

FOFOA said:

"But because the PBoC creates a local currency unit for every dollar received, that inflation stays there in China rather than coming back to the US."

But how exactly do the dollars get to the PBoC? The exporter ships a container full of crap and receives dollars...then what?

ein anderer said...

spaul,

»a truly integrated system needs ONE [= 1, eins, uno, un] single reference asset«

M said...

@ Franco

"But how exactly do the dollars get to the PBoC? The exporter ships a container full of crap and receives dollars...then what?"

The exporter just does a currency exchange. He cant pay his Chinese employees with dollars so he exchanges them for Yuan.

In response to FOFOA. Thanks for the answer.

I am still unsure with a couple things...

"But because the PBoC creates a local currency unit for every dollar received, that inflation stays there in China rather than coming back to the US."

This is where I see a big problem with this system. (Jim Grant calls it the PHD standard.) Central banks can play with the value of their citizens labor and trade it around amongst each other. A one currency transactional system would be a hell of a lot more sensible. With one currency like the Euro, there is no way of passing around purchasing power via double entry accounting/open market ops and BS.



Woland said...

I thought I would copy out a small snippet from Robert jenkins
short contribution toPanel III, in part because of the dry humor
of his final sentence:

"The seventh factor concerns the "ugly sister syndrome". Ever
wonder why the Euro has been so resilient against the dollar?
That the euro has not tanked may say more about the global
search for an alternative to the dollar than it does about
confidence in Europe's determination to save the single
currency. So it is worth considering the degree to which
progress on the euro might trigger a crisis in the greenback".

"When the spotlight shifts from Europe, where will it light?"

{;<)>

LZ said...

One central bank cannot cause inflation in another central bank's money supply because it cannot create their money. The exceptions are nations that use foreign currency: dollarized economies such as Panama or unofficially "dollarized" economies because people do not trust the native currency (Zimbabwe). Another set of nations use a foreign currency as a peg. If the peg is set too high or too low, the pegged currency will experience inflation or deflation (and if the peg value is too low, foreign currency will flow in. If the peg is too high, native currency will flow out).

China set their peg low saw hot money inflows, so they were getting it at both ends. Inflation was not exported by the U.S., it was a direct policy decision of the PBOC. You can see this in the fact that Chinese money supply grew much, much faster than foreign exchange reserves. Even if the U.S. was on a gold standard, China would have had high rates of inflation. Recently the forex reserves have ground to a halt in some months and even declined slightly, but money supply still grows at double digits. China is inflating via the banking and credit system (shadow banking), irrespective of how many dollars it imports.

When China buys Treasuries from the U.S. government, the dollars recirculate back into the U.S. economy. What Chinese policy does is distort how the currency flows through the economy, where the inflation shows up.

Chinese yuan inflation has had global effects. It created an inflationary bubble in China and companies used inflated currency to buy natural resources. (Essentially they were swapping underpriced manufactured goods for commodity imports.) As China's inflation slows, natural resource prices will collapse because Chinese demand will fall. But the price drop will occur in dollars because dollars haven't been inflated as quickly as yuan. The yuan itself will depreciate, and the drop in resource prices will be smaller.

Anonymous said...

Does China tax gold?

Michael dV said...

Spaul
I bought small (gram bars) in China and I was not aware of any taxes. I suppose it could have been included in the price but I paid exactly what the price tag said.

Anonymous said...

What tax liability happens though if you sell it?

Michael dV said...

It would be a loss at this point so if I sell it I can use that loss to offset any capital gains I might have from other investments. If I sell at a gain there is a special rate (I think it is 28% for gold and silver) that has to be paid. Gold and silver are treated much like any other investment by the IRS.

Ken_C said...

Michael dV - I think the question was how do the chinese treat gains or loss on gold purchase/sale for its citizens.

A better questions would be: "Are there any countries that do not have capital gains taxes on gold?'

ein anderer said...

Phil_O_Dendron,
yes, that’s a good question! Because, for example, Germany does NOT tax capital gains on gold—provided you do not sell in the first 12 months after you have bought. IN these 12 months the gains is regarded as every other income you have. (Same is true for this other shiny stuff—what was it’s name again … Don’t know anymore!)

Ken_C said...

ein_anderer

that is good to know. I wonder if there are any other countries that do not tax gold.

Maybe USA will do the right thing and remove tax from gold (and perhaps that other metal also)

M said...

@ 罗臻

I think you have a couple things wrong there..

You said
"One central bank cannot cause inflation in another central bank's money supply because it cannot create their money."

They can if they are the construct that enables the other central bank to continue inflating without seeing the negative consequences.

You said
"Inflation was not exported by the U.S., it was a direct policy decision of the PBOC. You can see this in the fact that Chinese money supply grew much, much faster than foreign exchange reserves. "

It is still technically true that the US exports inflation. They print money to pay for imports. Inflation is the expansion of the money supply. The Chinese pegged their currency to the USD, Its the US that is inflating its currency which forces the Chinese to print more to retain the peg. The US is the manipulators. The peg is just the peg. Its been like that for a long time.

You said

"When China buys Treasuries from the U.S. government, the dollars recirculate back into the U.S. economy. What Chinese policy does is distort how the currency flows through the economy, where the inflation shows up. "

Well, sort of. Chinese policy basically saves the face of the US govt debt ponzi scheme. A ponzi only falls apart when the investors find out and flee. In China's case, they found out, but they are not fleeing. Instead, they continue to feed money into the pozi for some reason. Lets not kid ourselves. This is a text book ponzi scheme. This is why Tim Giethner said that the US would default if they did not raise the debt ceiling. Because the only reason the US would default without raising the ceiling is because they would lose the ability to print new bonds to pay off maturing bonds.

You said
"It created an inflationary bubble in China and companies used inflated currency to buy natural resources. "

Companies used an undervalued currency to buy over valued natural resources. In the case of China, the debt buying it does, over values the US dollar and under values the Yuan.

You said
"As China's inflation slows, natural resource prices will collapse because Chinese demand will fall. But the price drop will occur in dollars because dollars haven't been inflated as quickly as yuan. "

That is a fallacy. If China's inflation slows, that would mean they are adjusting the peg higher to make the Yuan more valuable which in turn makes the dollar less valuable.

If China's economy slows down, it will make them reconsider their dollar positions. This will flood the forex markets with excess dollars which will drive the value of them down. China is the creditor. If they decided to sell dollars and buy Euro's (Eurozone is their biggest trading partner, not the US) then commodities priced in dollars would sky rocket.

M said...

@ Phil O

Sigapore has 0% cap gains tax on everything I believe...

Anonymous said...

Can anyone confirm that Germany doesn’t tax gold if held for longer than 12 months?

If so, why would anyone in Germany save in anything but gold? All other assets will be dissolved away via the combined effects of inflation and capital gains.

Seems too good to be true. Even better in Singapore, capital flows to where its treated best.

Ken_C said...

Spaul67

the fact that Germany and Singapore don't tax gold is only good for citizens of those countries. It does not help Americans because the IRS will still want its pound of flesh from Americans with assets in those countries.

DASK said...

Spaul: Germany classed gold transactions as a private sale transaction under Section 23 paragraph 1 sentence 2 of the Income Tax Act, which (according to section 2, paragraph 1, sentence 1, No. 7 Income Tax Act) of the income tax has no tax ramifications unless the holding time is less than one year.

The same designation holds for other assets such as art, collectibles, and now Bitcoins.

I have no idea why all Germans do not save in gold, although (I cannot remember the report), there was a credible estimate that the German privately held gold hoard was between 5000-8000 tons.. so call it 2.5 Toz / capita private holdings, plus 1 Toz /capita CB holdings. As a nation, they most certainly do save in gold.

ampmfix said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ampmfix said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ein anderer said...


»Der Anteil der Selbstständigen, die aktuell davon ausgehen, dass sie Goldmünzen oder Goldbarren vererben werden, liegt bei 14 Prozent. Im Vergleich zum Vorjahr hat sich dieser Anteil verdoppelt.«

14 percent of the self-employed think that they will entail gold coins and gold bars. This number doubled compared with the year before.«

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