Monday, February 3, 2014

Seventeen



"Why do they view their debt in terms of yield
when it only returns more of the same paper?
The only way to convert the return on this
American debt is by buying something real with it.
Only then do we have a “yield”. The Westerners use
“paper to price paper” and “more paper to price more paper”
in an endless quest to add value where value only exists
in the minds of men. To this end they say we have lost value
holding gold, but our families and children cannot go broke.
No one owes us and we owe no one, and we do not “convert paper
to something real” to create “yield”. We already own
our “yield”, no conversion needed!

Now they have created the illusion of gold in
great supply to lower its value in currency terms,
and the Americans accept this. They do not question that this
illusion was done using paper contracts, that do not hold gold
but are priced in currencies that offer a yield valued only
in human emotion terms. It is in this fashion that the
greatest folly of Western thinking will bring an end
to an era of unvalued money. In the near future
a real value will be exchanged for gold and those
that hold paper gold will bid much higher to obtain
what they thought they already had!"

If you're just laying eyes on this Freegold thing for the first time, you are in luck! As of today, if you have, say, $55,000 in surplus currency reserves sitting around, you can still exchange it for 43 ounces of real physical gold! That's almost 3 lbs. of 24-karat gold! And did you know that there's less than 1 ounce per person in the world, so 43 ounces for one person, especially a Westerner, is actually pretty remarkable.

Salience: the state or quality of an item that stands out relative to neighboring items

"Gold is so old. Such a rich history. An educated western mind cannot begin to understand it! We live in a time of closed thought and controlled perception. How could we have known that two thirds of humanity would still think of gold as wealth. It’s not that they are right or wrong to think this way, it’s that we want them to work for us! That is the problem! And when they worked for us we paid them!

And who in the hell would have thought that they would have used so much of that pay to buy gold! Some bought in tiny amounts and some bought in large amounts. This started with the new world trading order that came into being about six years ago. By now that gold is so spread out it would take 20 years and 5 small armies to get it back, I think."
–Another


Someone recently proclaimed to one of my readers that "gold is not exceptional!" He was comparing gold to the charts and returns of other investments. My reader simply replied, "Gold doesn't need to be more exceptional than anything else in order to be more salient, just as Grand Central Station doesn't need to be more exceptional than anywhere else in order to be the most salient place of encounter in New York City."

I wrote about this three years ago in Focal Point – Gold:

In game theory, a focal point (also called Schelling point) is a solution that people will tend to use in the absence of communication, because it seems natural, special or relevant to them. The concept was introduced by the Nobel Prize winning American economist Thomas Schelling in his book The Strategy of Conflict (1960). In this book (at p. 57), Schelling describes "focal point[s] for each person’s expectation of what the other expects him to expect to be expected to do." This type of focal point later was named after Schelling.

Consider a simple example: two people unable to communicate with each other are each shown a panel of four squares and asked to select one; if and only if they both select the same one, they will each receive a prize. Three of the squares are blue and one is red. Assuming they each know nothing about the other player, but that they each do want to win the prize, then they will, reasonably, both choose the red square. Of course, the red square is not in a sense a better square; they could win by both choosing any square. And it is the "right" square to select only if a player can be sure that the other player has selected it; but by hypothesis neither can. It is the most salient, the most notable square, though, and lacking any other one most people will choose it, and this will in fact (often) work.

Schelling himself illustrated this concept with the following problem: Tomorrow you have to meet a stranger in NYC. Where and when do you meet them? This is a Coordination game, where any place in time in the city could be an equilibrium solution. Schelling asked a group of students this question, and found the most common answer was "noon at (the information booth at) Grand Central Station." There is nothing that makes "Grand Central Station" a location with a higher payoff (you could just as easily meet someone at a bar, or the public library reading room), but its tradition as a meeting place raises its salience, and therefore makes it a natural "focal point."

Gold's salience as the focal point store of value par excellence is not a prediction or future projection. It is a backward-looking observation. There are some 5½ billion ounces in this world of 7 billion people, and every last ounce is equitably owned by someone. During the last 17 years, 1.3 billion people were added to this planet, and also 1.3 billion ounces of gold were added to the above-ground supply. And again, every last ounce was purchased by someone.

This may seem like a silly point, but gold does not pile up on overstock.com shelves like last year's iPhone accessories waiting for frugal buyers. It sells out every year. Normally you'd think this means that supply and demand met, price was the result, and therefore the price of gold represents its fair value. But with gold, it's not quite that simple.

When I talk about gold's salience as the focal point wealth reserve, I'm not talking about gold mining shares, gold futures, gold certificates, gold-denominated trading accounts like XAUUSD, or even gold ETFs. I'm talking only about physical gold in hand, meaning discrete physical pieces of gold in the most unambiguous form of ownership you can arrange as a shrimp. I'm talking about this:


I'm sure my comment will, as always, kick off a discussion in the comments about whether this or that "gold and silver" custodial service is a viable alternative to possession, but that will be missing the point. I'm talking about gold's salience as the focal point object of wealth as it already exists among the Giants and "third world nobodies" who already own most of the gold in the world. Look at how they buy and hold gold.

Of course gold's shiny allure does reflect its salient glow upon other gold-ish investments in the mind of the Western investor. The Western mindset sees this focal point salience, is aware of it, but then uses these "alternatives to possession" to place bets on how its allure to Giants and "third world nobodies" will affect its price. As FOA wrote in Chapter 1, "This, my friends, is the very nature of western trading of gold." And Another:
Everyone knows that western minds don't like or want gold, but if they think you like it they will trade it up in price for the sake of "sticking it to you." Enter the world of "paper gold."



A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

Something happened 17 years ago last week. I would characterize it as "the opening of the door" for Another and FOA to explain publicly, albeit anonymously, what we today call Freegold. "A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma" was the way one writer at the time, The Red Baron, described the London gold market. That's because it had been one of the most opaque and secretive markets (for obvious reason) for hundreds of years.

Then, 17 years ago last Thursday, the LBMA released, for the first time ever, its average daily clearing volume, through an article in the London Financial Times titled "Extent of global gold market revealed". Today (and ever since that day) the LBMA releases this volume every month, so it may seem like no big deal. But in 1997, the sheer magnitude of the reported volume was a real head-scratcher for some who had been following the gold market for years. Before I explain, let's take a quick look at how the City of London grew into the world's central hub for trading gold.

According to the official Gold Fixing website, the emergence of London as a gold trading center can be traced back to around 1671, with the arrival of a young merchant named Moses Mocatta. Then, in the early 1800s, Nathan Mayer Rothschild arrived in London and soon became England's official gold broker.

Nathan moved from Germany to England in 1798, and by 1805 he was a successful banker in London. His bank, N.M. Rothschild & Sons Limited, was founded in 1811, and by 1815 he was buying gold on behalf of the British Treasury to fund the Battle of Waterloo. Ten years later, he helped the Bank of England out of a liquidity crisis by providing it with gold coins.

The British army, paid with gold acquired by N.M. Rothschild, narrowly defeated Napoleon's French army in 1815, which makes it a fun fact that the London-based global banking empire of N.M. Rothschild & Sons is now wholly owned by the French branch of the Rothschild family. That happened after Sir Evelyn de Rothschild retired in 2004, and N.M. Rothschild & Sons was then merged with France's Rothschild & Cie Banque through Paris Orléans SA, now headed by David de Rothschild, eldest son of Baron Guy de Rothschild, the head of the French branch who passed away in 2007.

If I've gotten anything wrong there, I apologize. I'm certainly not a Rothschild historian, but they did play a big role in the history of the London gold market. Following WWI, an agreement was struck between London and South Africa such that newly-mined South African gold would be shipped to London for refining, after which it would be sold to the world through N.M. Rothschild for the highest price that could possibly be attained on the market at that time. Thus began the London fix.

"On 12th September 1919 at 11.00 a.m., the first gold fixing took place… The bids were made by telephone for the first few days, but it was then decided to hold a formal meeting at the Rothschild offices… Although the London fix continued to be in sterling for almost another 50 years, what really counted was the dollar price of gold, as the dollar gradually replaced sterling as the world’s favourite reserve currency." goldfixing.com

London gold fixings ceased in 1939 with the outbreak of WWII, and then resumed 15 years later in 1954. The way the fix worked was that five members of the London gold market, the five fixers, would meet once a day in the Rothschild offices with a direct phone line to each of their trading rooms. The trading rooms would be talking to their clients on both the buy and sell sides, and each fixing member would report the net buy or sell orders from their clients. The five fixers would net out the orders from the five banks and if there were more purchase than sell orders, for example, the price would be raised and each bank's trading room would relay the new price to its clients and the orders would be adjusted and reported back to the fix.

Once the buy and sell orders were all matched, the price would be declared "fixed" and the orders would be filled. This happened once a day until 1968 when they added a second "PM" fix to coincide with the opening of the US markets. But as early as 1961, the Bank of England started noticing that it was having to sell from its own reserves to keep the price down to $35 per ounce. This led to the creation of the London Gold Pool, a pool of gold reserves from eight different countries that would be used to keep the fix fixed at $35 per ounce. Within the pool, the Bank of England only had to cover 9% of whatever was needed while the US ponied up the lion's share, 50% of the pool.

In 1968, the London Gold Pool collapsed as buy orders overwhelmed the reserves. According to goldfixing.com, the pool lost 3,000 tonnes trying to hold the price at $35 per ounce. On orders from the US, which was supplying 50% of the pool, the London gold market was closed for two weeks. When it reopened, the second fix was added and they no longer tried to control the price, which quickly rose to $44 per ounce.

But something else happened during those two weeks that the London gold market was closed. London lost its South African supply line to Switzerland, which was a big hit to the London gold market at the time, about 1,000 tonnes a year. And then in 1975, the COMEX futures market opened in the US, taking even more market share away from London. London responded by giving birth to the bullion bank (a term that, in the early 80s, referred only to mine finance) and opening its gold market up to foreign banks who wanted bullion trading rooms in London.

The first of the foreigners in were Morgan Guaranty, Credit Suisse and Nova Scotia, and by the mid-80s this new "open door policy" had attracted more than 50 new "associate members of the London Gold Market". Coordination, like in the good old days of the fix, was getting more complicated. Also in the mid-80s, London opened, and then closed three years later, its own version of the COMEX, the London Gold Futures Market (LGFM). And in 1984, the pioneer of modern bullion banking, Johnson Matthey Bankers, also one of the fixers, collapsed.

It was a mess that had to be cleaned up by the Bank of England itself, and in the aftermath, the BOE assumed the supervisory role over the London bullion market and demanded that the participants create a formal body to represent them as a group. A little more than a year later, in Dec. 1987, the LBMA was born.

The first chairman of the LBMA was also the chairman of the Fix from '74-'93, and a director of N.M. Rothschild & Sons named Robert Guy. Robert Guy was also the first to push for more transparency in the LBMA in the form of turnover volume statistics as early as 1992:

London Bullion Market
By Kenneth Gooding
FT June 22, 1992, Monday

There is a need for greater transparency in the gold market, suggests Mr Robert Guy, a director of N. M. Rothschild, the bullion house which hosts London's daily gold fixing session. 'I find it very difficult when people ask me the turnover of the market not to be able to tell them.'

Mr Guy was the first chairman of the London Bullion Market Association when it was set up in 1987 to represent the interests of participants in the wholesale bullion market. He has only just stepped down after four strenuous years. Freed from the necessity for diplomatic neutrality, Mr Guy is able to nail his colours firmly to the mast. He suggests that the association went one step in the right direction towards more transparency in July, 1990, when it started to publish details of gold lending rates.

'I believe this attracted more business to the market, not only from mining companies, but also from central banks,' he says. Now he has stimulated a debate about turnover transparency. He is very much in favour of the London gold market providing turnover details, not on a daily basis but regular historic statistics. Many other markets do this - Mr Guy points to the London stock exchange as an example of a market where turnover statistics apparently help to lift trade.

'Investors today demand more transparency than they used to. I believe gold market activity would be enhanced if we had greater transparency”

Mr Guy suggests that the management of those companies participating in the market would benefit from publication of turnover statistics. They would have some benchmark figures against which to measure their own statistics. Not every member of the association agrees with him. Mr Guy thinks that most of the LBMA's market making members are in favour but 'as we believe in consensus, unless everyone agrees, it won't happen'.

And that's my brief history of the "riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma" that was the London gold market for the last 300 years, bringing us up to the point in time I want to talk about, 17 years ago last week. On Jan. 22, 1997, the LBMA announced its intention to release its clearing volume in a Financial Times article titled "Dealers end gold trading secrets":

Dealers end gold trading secrets
By Kenneth Gooding
FT January 22, 1997, Wednesday

Bullion dealers, backed by the Bank of England, have agreed to overturn years of tradition and secrecy by publishing details about turnover on the London gold market.

But some analysts warned that the move, designed to increase transparency on international exchanges, might drive business away from London because of clients' desire for anonymity.

The London Bullion Market Association intends to make public international settlement and London market turnover figures every month, starting next week.

Mr Alan Baker, the association's chairman, said it hoped to "walk carefully along a narrow line between the calls for more transparency on one side and the secrecy demanded by our clients on the other".

But one analyst, who asked not to be named, said the move was "terrible". "When did a market need transparency to grow? People won't be attracted to a market showing its underwear in public."

Mr Tony Warwick-Ching, gold specialist at the CRU International consultancy, suggested the move might put London at a disadvantage to the Swiss who were unlikely to reveal any gold statistics.

"The gold market has always thrived on opacity and obscurity," he said.

Mr Baker said the data would reflect global gold dealing activity by revealing the figures for the "loco London" market, or those international deals settled in London.

Ms Rhona O'Connell, analyst at specialist mining stock-broker T. Hoare & Co, suggested the statistics would provide a clear indication of the depth of the gold market.

"It should bolster confidence if people see it is a deep market and not liable to manipulation," she said.

Then, on Jan. 30, 1997, they followed through with the article I mentioned earlier:

Extent of global gold market revealed:
London clears 930 tonnes of bullion each day

By Kenneth Gooding
FT January 30, 1997, Thursday USA EDITION 1

Deals involving about 30m troy ounces, or 930 tonnes, of gold valued at more than $ 10bn are cleared every working day in London, the international settlement centre for gold bullion.

This is the first authoritative indication of the size of the global gold market, and was revealed yesterday by the London Bullion Market Association.

With the blessing of the Bank of England, the association overturned years of tradition and secrecy to provide statistics illustrating the size and depth of the London market.

The volume of gold cleared every day in London represented nearly twice the production from South African mines in a year, Mr Alan Baker, chairman of the association, pointed out.

It was also equivalent to the amount of gold held in the reserves of European Union central banks.

The size of the gold market will surprise many observers, but traders insisted the association's statistics were only part of the picture because matched orders are cleared without appearing in the statistics. Mr Jeffrey Rhodes, of Standard Bank, London, said the 30m ounces should be "multiplied by three, and possibly five, to give the full scope of the global market".

Mr Baker said the association would produce average daily clearance figures every month. "They will provide a useful benchmark for comparison and analysis of trends in the volume of the global bullion business," he predicted.

He denied suggestions that the move might drive business away from London by upsetting clients who preferred secrecy. "These figures do not in any way affect the confidentiality of the market. While discretion and integrity will always be bywords in the London bullion market, the LBMA is nevertheless conscious of the general call for greater transparency in markets.

"The statistics demonstrate the prominence of London in the world of bullion, something we have long been aware of but which until now has been difficult to demonstrate with statistics."

LBMA members were divided over the move. One said he was puzzled. "What will people make of it?" Another said the exercise was "futile" because it did not give a complete picture of bullion market activity.

But Standard Bank's Mr Rhodes suggested the statistics would "become the key indicator in the world of gold, providing the numbers by which the market can be monitored".

Mr Martin Stokes, vice-chairman of the association, said: "This shows we have a serious market with a lot of depth and deserving of more attention." The statistics showed, for example, that the 300 tonnes of gold sold recently by the Dutch central bank - a disposal that badly affected bullion market sentiment - was not a large amount by the market's standards. The association was "making a bid to attract investors' interest".

The association also gave details yesterday about the silver market. Roughly 250m ounces of silver valued at more than $ 1bn are cleared daily in London.

It also published the results of a Bank of England survey of turnover that the 14 market-making members of the LBMA in the London bullion market conducted in May last year. This showed about 7m ounces of gold, worth nearly $ 3bn, was traded daily by these market-makers.


VOLUME

I want to draw your attention to that last paragraph. It says that the BOE's survey of 14 LMBA market makers in May of 1996 showed a "daily turnover" of 7M ounces worth $3B. Doesn't that seem low compared to the 30M ounces worth over $10B reported as "daily clearing volume" in a survey of the 8 LBMA clearing members just seven months later? Just on the face of it, that's a 4 to 1 jump in daily volume. Did something change between May and December in 1996? Did the gold trading volume explode, or is there some difference in the reporting standards of the two surveys? After all, the BOE's survey called it "daily turnover" and the LBMA survey was the "daily clearing volume".

In fact, the LBMA surveyed its 8 clearing members starting in October '96, and that month the average daily clearing volume was 27.5M ounces. So if there was a dramatic jump in the volume, it must have occurred during June through September. Or was the BOE's May '96 result a fluke, i.e., an abnormally low month? Well, as it turns out, it was not a fluke. The BOE conducted the same survey four times since 1990, with similar results since at least 1991. About 6½ million ounces in '91, 7½ in '94, and 7 in '96.

So, apparently, roughly 7M ounces in "daily turnover" was the status quo from '91 through '96, and then, in the summer of '96, something happened and the volume exploded, like punctuated equilibria, to a new status quo level which, generally, continues to this day. Or is there another explanation for the discrepancy between the BOE and the LBMA surveys? As I already mentioned, the BOE surveyed the LBMA "market makers" (14 of them) for their "daily turnover", and the LBMA surveyed its "clearing members" (which, at that time, were 8 of the 14 market makers surveyed by the BOE) for the "daily clearing volume".

What's the difference between "daily clearing" and "daily turnover", and how should we expect them to relate to one another? In other words, is there an expected ratio, like 4 to 1 or something? Actually there is! But there are many opinions on what it is, generally ranging from 3:1 to 10:1.

In 1997, from the article above, Jeffrey Rhodes of Standard Bank, an LBMA member, said the clearing volume should be "multiplied by three, and possibly five, to give the full scope of the global market."

In 2007, Stewart Murray, the recently-retired head of the LBMA, wrote that "Previous estimates of the daily volumes traded in the London market have suggested that the quantities are a positive multiple of the clearing volumes with a multiplier of between 5 and 9."

In 2009, Peter L. Smith of JP Morgan Chase, writing in the LBMA's own Alchemist, said that "the numbers are probably understated by as much as a factor of three times, or possibly even more during busy market periods."

And in 2011, in Liquidity in the Global Gold Market – Trading volume and turnover, the World Gold Council reported that "Many dealers estimate that actual daily turnover is an absolute minimum of three times the amount of transfers reported by the LBMA and could be upwards of ten times higher."

So there you have it, 3 to 5, 5 to 9, 3+ and 3 to 10. But the best indicator of the expected ratio of turnover to clearing comes from the LBMA's own 2011Q1 turnover survey, published just four months after the WGC report. In it, for the first time ever, they report both "daily turnover" and "daily clearing" side by side. These were statistics taken over three months, 63 trading days, and they revealed a ratio for turnover to clearing of 9.2 to 1. Definitely the higher end of the 3 to 10 spectrum! ;D

But perhaps you've already noticed something. Perhaps you already caught the catch. This empirical ratio of 9.2:1 does not reconcile or resolve the discrepancy between the May '96 BOE survey and the Oct. '96 LBMA one, it widens it. It makes it worse!

On the surface, that 7M to 27.5M ounce discrepancy looks like a 400% explosion in gold trading volume, over only five months. But if we apply the 9.2:1 ratio discovered in the LBMA's 2011 survey, then it looks more like a nuclear explosion of 3,600%. So, to avoid the impression of sensationalism, let's create a range with 3,600% at the high end. What should be the low, most conservative end of the spectrum, given what we know?

Well, in 2011, the LBMA surveyed 36 members, including all 11 of its "market-making members". In 1996, the BOE only surveyed the market making members, but there were 14 of them at that time. So we're comparing a survey of 14 trading rooms with one that surveyed 36, however the "market making members" should probably be given more weight. But let's not. To be sure we hit the conservative end of the spectrum, let's not discriminate between bullion banks. There is, after all, at least one analysis that concluded 23 or so bullion banks that were not surveyed in 1996 were at least as active as the 14 that were, which brings the total up to 37 bullion banks, pretty close to the 36 that were surveyed in 2011.

I'll keep this part to one paragraph so as not to bore those of you who are still with me. It is a fair assumption that the more banks polled, the higher the reported turnover would be, and therefore the higher the multiple compared to the clearing stats. 36 (members polled in 2011) divided by 14 (members polled in 1996) is 2.57. If we divide the multiple of 9.2 that came out of the 2011 survey by 2.57, we get an expected multiple of 3.6 for the 1996 survey. That is, we could expect the "turnover" to be 3.6 times larger than the "clearing volume", or said another way (because we don't know the clearing volume in May of 1996), we would expect the "clearing volume" to be the reported "turnover" divided by 3.6.

The implied increase in trading volume is about 1,400% in five months. And that gives us our range. Rather than a 400% jump in trading volume as it appears on the surface, it was probably somewhere between 1,400% and 3,600%, and I'm going to roll with the low end because it's more than dramatic enough for my purposes. Here's what it looks like putting the implied clearing volume for May '96 with the reported volumes for October through January. I converted millions of ounces into tonnes, because tonnes are the terms in which I generally think:


Now before you get lost in the details, there's a main point. And that point is that it looks like something changed in the gold market around the middle of 1996. That change, apparently, precipitated the appearance of Big Trader on the Kitco forum in December '96, the LBMA transparency decision in January, and the subsequent appearance of Another and FOA which, to me, seems to be more of an evolution of pseudonyms, from Big Trader to Another, than a string of different posters.

I just want to touch on this for a moment, because it's confusing. And I'm not suggesting that Big Trader and Another were the same person. I don't think they were. I just think that the same person (FOA) probably posted all or most of the comments on both of their behalfs, and that, between Dec. '96 and Oct. '97, the handle he used evolved from Big Trader to ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ). The evolution went something like this:

Big Trader
Big Trader ( the writer! )
The Writer
The Writer ( thoughts! )
BIG TRADER (THOUGHTS!)
BIG TRADER (LAST THOUGHTS!)
ANOTHER (thoughts not written anymore)
ANOTHER
ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! )
Friend of Another
FOA

This only came to my attention less than two years ago, when Nick Laird published the old Kitco forum archives. It is my opinion, and it's only an opinion, that these early "thoughts" (the authentic ones, because there were also a few copycats) were all posted from FOA's computer, even though the thoughts originated with at least two other people, Another and Big Trader. Therefore I view them as coming from a "group" as it were. I realize it's a little ambiguous, but I think it's the best we can do with what we have to work with from those earliest comments. And with that out of the way, let's get back to the volume in 1996.

There appears to have been a dramatic jump in gold trading volume of at least 1,400% sometime in mid-1996. We could even call it a phase transition of sorts, because it appears that volume was stable at one level from '91-'96, and then it has been roughly stable at its new level for the last 17 years. Have you seen it discussed quite this way before? I haven't, and I think that's probably because the sheer magnitude of the jump only became deducible with the advent of the LBMA turnover survey in 2011.

Here it is again. This time I added the implied clearing volumes for '91 and '94 based on the turnover chart on page 40 of this BOE publication, as well as the latest volume released by the LBMA, to show where it is today. Does this make any sense?


What are we to make of this apparent jump in volume of more than a full order of magnitude? Did it really happen, or is there some other explanation for the discrepancy between the two surveys mentioned in Kenneth Gooding's article from Jan. 30, 1997? Most of the gold market followers on Kitco at the time seem to have taken the news as simply the revelation of previously-undisclosed volume, as opposed to the revelation of a sudden increase in volume. And the mainstream media that reported the two survey results seemed to ignore or not even notice the difference.

Here's another article from Gooding in May of '97. Notice the highlighted portion:

LBMA clears less gold during April
By Kenneth Gooding
Financial Times May 13, 1997, Tuesday LONDON EDITION 1

Another fall in the average daily clearing turnover for gold was reported by the London Bullion Market Association yesterday. Daily turnover was 32.1m troy ounces worth $ 11.1bn, well down on the 36.3m troy ounces worth $ 12.8bn cleared in March and the record 40.3m ounces worth $ 14bn reported in February.

The association also pointed out that April's volume total was 15 per cent below the average for the first quarter and 16.5 per cent down in value terms. "Underlying these trends was the levelling out of both gold and silver prices in April and consequently lower volatility which was naturally reflected in a generally declining level of activity and clearing turnover," said Mr Chris Elston, chief executive. Gold averaged $ 344.47 an ounce in April, compared with $ 351.80 in March.

The LBMA started reporting daily clearance statistics for London, the international settlement centre for gold bullion, only from October last year, so there are no comparative figures for April 1996.

The picture for silver in April was similar to that for gold, with 253m ounces worth $ 1.2bn cleared on average every day, down from 284m ounces worth $ 1.5bn in March. The average silver price in April fell to $ 4.77 an ounce from $ 5.20 in March.

That was his standard practice each month, to compare the monthly volume report to the prior year, and, therefore, to note that there was nothing to compare it to until October '97. But he never mentioned the May '96 BOE survey again for comparison. If he had, any comparison between the two would have raised some obvious questions, which is why I said he seemed to either ignore or not even notice the difference. To me, in hindsight, now with the advantage of the 2011 survey which gave us a concrete relationship between turnover and clearing, this seems to be the elephant in the room that nobody noticed.

Another and Big Trader on the other hand, and meanwhile, were going on and on about an explosion in the gold trading volume. Did they know something that no one else knew? Look at this comment from "Big Trader ( the writer! )" on February 27, 1997:

"Let me clear up a few things. I am not the “Big Trader”! He cannot speak or write english and does not/would not post here. He has a need to get “thoughts” to other people. I do not do well with english either. My relations with him are private and restrict me from posting my own thoughts… Those of you who are rich and “on the inside” of gold companies and gold traders, ask if anyone alive had ever seen gold trade in the present volumes that have not been seen in history. The shocking truth is that more gold has just been traded than is held in most of the central banks. So much so that even the 100+ year old london gold pool was forced to admit to trading it’s share! I should think that the big investors on comex would have known this was going to happen! No? It could only have been the people who were about to do this buying that would know ahead of time. Yes, only they would know that a “once in a lifetime” buying spree was about to take hold.

Will gold go back down in price? They don’t realy care! Only on kitco can a trader find such good info. I advise every gold trader in the world to access this site every day! There is only one person who knows me at this site. That person is the soul of discretion and integrity. Someday I will contact him again and he will learn my real name. May the force be with you, and keep your eye on london! thank you"

Notice the highlighted portion. The above was posted at the end of February '97, just about one month after the LBMA released its clearing volume for the first time on Jan. 30th. But Big Trader first showed up on Kitco on December 7, 1996, with this:

"Myself and a group are indeed placing open orders for Feb/97 gold on any breaks below $370.00 and will continue to buy each day under that price ( for weeks if allowed ). We can and will call most or all of these contracts if the market doesn’t rise enough for a rollover. Our cost and fees is such that it’s easier to buy paper here than physicals in asia…"

Again, that was Dec. 7, 1996 when Big Trader first showed up talking about himself and his "group", "in asia", buying paper gold for the purpose of converting it into physical. Then less than two months later, on Jan. 30, 1997, the LBMA released its clearing volume. Then one month later, either FOA or Another wrote "It could only have been the people who were about to do this buying that would know ahead of time. Yes, only they would know that a “once in a lifetime” buying spree was about to take hold."

In hindsight, February '97 had the highest volume, by a fair margin, during the entire first year of reporting. From the LBMA website:


About one year later, on February 4, 1998, Another wrote this:

"Most of the very large buyers completed much of their conversion all of last year. When we speak of these entities one must know that they purchase much larger amounts than Berkshire. Most cannot understand that it is difficult to take five or ten million oz./gold in physical in a month or less. Note that Mr. Buffett has taken six months and only purchased about half of his silver! Even here we speak of only $300m for the amount taken. At this time the market is very, very tight for large money to go into physical. Paper, yes! I could move five billion US into paper metal very fast, but not physical."

Most of this I'm giving you is to simply show that the narrative being explained by Big Trader, Another and FOA in those early days is, in fact, corroborated by data from official (BOE and LBMA) as well as mainstream (FT) sources at the same time, even if it was never explored in quite this same way before. And again, the magnitude of the apparently huge increase in volume only became less speculative and more concrete after August of 2011 when the LBMA released its survey.

To recap, Big Trader shows up in December talking about buying lots of February paper gold and converting it to physical. In January the LBMA starts releasing its clearing volume. In hindsight, February turns out to be a big month. And also in hindsight, 1997 turned out to be a big year for physical gold flowing out of London. Here's a chart of gold imports/exports for the UK that Victor the Cleaner put together. The data he used came from an old article by James Turk:


Notice almost 2,500 tonnes of physical gold in net exports for 1997. If we divide that amount by 12 months, it works out to about 6.7 million ounces per month. Pretty close to what Another said on Feb. 4, 1998: "Most cannot understand that it is difficult to take five or ten million oz./gold in physical in a month or less."

Remember also that Another was fond of saying "Time will prove all things." So was it just a coincidence that, time and again, Another said remarkable things that could only be corroborated years later in hindsight? Or could it be possible that he not only had access to insider intel, but also the "old money/Giant" perspective necessary to put it all together in a way that even most insiders couldn't have done with intel alone? It is this rare combination that, in my opinion, makes Another so unique, and probably also what drove him to share his insights.

This is the way I've always viewed Another, and over the years I have even developed a "profile" for him that I find most fitting. Some think he must have been a central banker, perhaps even one of the euro architects. But I have come to like the idea that he was European old money aristocracy, also having some connection to the various areas that he seemed to know so well.

Michael Kosares wrote in his intro to (THOUGHTS!): "ANOTHER demonstrates a feel for and understanding of the gold and oil markets that indicates connections at the highest echelons of international finance." I would add that he also probably had some connections making him privy to top level intel in central banking, the LBMA, Hong Kong, South Africa and Middle East oil.

In 2001, FOA wrote, paraphrasing Another, "we are not here to prove things, my friend, time will do that for us. It will also expose our standing in world of Thoughts." Please take note of how this posture differs from virtually everything else we read from other gold analysts and so-called "experts", be it reasoned speculation or statements of (supposed) fact. And it wasn't just their posture, but their entire view on the gold market that differed (and still does to this day) from virtually everyone else.

There is certainly nothing wrong with well-reasoned speculation by experts and discussions about apparent facts. But I propose to you that the logical consistency of what A/FOA shared, combined with everything else about it (their posturing, their exposing of what could only be insider intel if true, and the obvious old-money, old-world wisdom they exuded) warrants very serious consideration, especially because their view is so completely different from both the mainstream "expert" view and the majority gold bug view of the market.

So, with that in mind, let's take a quick look at some of the other things they wrote about this explosion in volume:

6/8/97: "So many off market forward gold deals were done without any gold changing hands! Big buyers got on the paper side of these things and thought that the CB’s were backing the dealer banks by written contract. If the mines couldn’t perform the banks would …….! But what if in some deals the mines were not involved at all ? Just off market option trades as backing? … And now whatever gold that was to back these deals is found to be “not there”? And everybody was looking at all this paper being sold and thought there must be one hell of a lot of gold being sold!"

Some of you may recognize the bolded part as an issue that was under debate here a while back. But how else can you explain such a huge expansion, over a short time frame, in the LBMA trading volume? If the expansion/explosion described above really happened, then it was either "one hell of a lot of [physical] gold being sold," i.e., dumped on the market, or it was a hell of a lot of paper gold being written to meet demand. And while the price of gold did decline during the summer of '96, it only dropped by about 2.5%, which, I think, obviously argues against the idea of a physical dump.

1/10/98: "What quantity of GOLD, paper or physical, has OIL traditionally purchased on an annual basis?

From 1991, appx. 20m/oz./yr., now it is more.

How much paper GOLD is out there ready to be squeezed?

Over 14,000 tons."


2/9/01: "Yes, they did introduce the gold carry trade then and the timing was no accident. I also have to point out that Another was the very first to mention a gold lending number anywhere near that level. He said it was around 14,000 many years ago or would soon approach that level. Everyone, except those that knew the game, said it was NUTS! Now, the 10,000 figure is on every desk in the world."

Trading volume, be it turnover or clearing, only tells us something about the flow. It tells us little about the stock. Here Another appears to know the stock of uncovered paper gold that was "written" (lent, borrowed and sold short) during the inflation. In currency terms, that would have been around $160B. At one point FOA infers, in no uncertain terms, that Another is, in fact, privy to this very secret information:

5/3/98 "Somehow, the BIS and the major private gold holders know the total claims, as does Another."

Many in the gold community believe that this high volume must have represented real gold changing hands. Some of it did, but most of it did not according to Another. Many believe that this much real gold could have only come out of the central bank vaults. To be sure, some did, but most of it did not according to Another.

10/12/97: "How DO they do it?

It's more complicated than this but here is a close explanation. In the beginning the CBs didn't sell their own gold. They ( thru third party ) found someone else who had bullion. That "party" sold to a broker who sold forward for a mine or speculator or government ) . In the end the 3rd party had the backing from the broker that he had backing from the CB to supply physical if needed to put out a fire. The CB held a very private note from the broker as insurance and was paid a small fee. This process mobilized free standing bullion outside the government stockpiles. The world currency gold price was kept down as large existing physical stockpiles were replaced by notes of future delivery from the merchant banks ( and anyone else who wanted to play ) .

This whole game was not lost on some very large buyers WHO WANTED GOLD BUT DIDN'T WANT IT'S MOVEMENT TO BE SEEN! Why not move a little closer to the action by offering cash directly to the broker/bank ( to be lent out ) in return for a future gold note that was indirectly backed by the CBs. That "paper gold" was just like gold in the bank. The CBs liked it because no one had to move gold and it took BIG buying power off the market that would have gunned the price! It also worked well as a vehicle to cycle oil wealth for gold as a complete paper deal.

Are you with me?

Well a funny thing happened right after the Gulf war ended. What looked like big money before turned out to be little money as some HK people, I'll call them "Big Trader" for short, moved in and started buying all the notes and physical the market offered. The rub was that they only bought low, and lower and cheaper. They never ran the price and they never ran out of money. Seeing this, some people ( middle east ) started to exchange their existing paper gold for the real stuff. From that time, early 1997 LBMA was running full speed just to stay in one spot! In other words paper volume had to increase to the physical volume on a worldwide scale, and that was going to be one hell of a jump. It could not be hidden from the news any longer.

This was not far from the time that "Big Trader" said that "if gold drops below $370 the world would see trading volume like never before seen". The rest is history. Now the CBs will have to sell 1/3 to 1/2 of their gold just to cover whats out there. To use the Queens English "it ain't gona happen dude"!"


11/16/97: "In todays time the CBs do not sell physical gold with a purpose to drive the price down. They sell to cover open orders to buy what cannot be filled from existing stocks. Look to the US treasury sales in the late 70s. They sold 1 million a month using open bid proposals with much fanfare. If the CBs wanted physical sales to drive the price they would sell in the same way.

The sales today are done quietly with purpose. The gold must go to the correct location. That is why these sales do not impact price as they occur, there is a waiting buyer on the other side. As all of these transactions are done thru certain merchant banks, not direct CB contact, the buy side does hold hedges.

When actual delivery takes place, months later ( and usually at the same time as the CB sale statement ) these hedges come off and affect the market price.

It is important to understand that none of these CB sales of physical need to go to the open market at all! The BIS could take it all. …

Banks do lend gold with a reason to control price. If gold rises above its commodity price it loses value in discount trade. They admit now to lending much where they would admit nothing before! They do this now because of the trouble ahead. Does a CB have collateral to lend its gold? Understand, they only lend their good name on paper, not the gold itself. The gold that is put on the market in these deals belongs to someone else! The question is not "Are the CBs worried for the return of gold?" but, "Has our paper been lent to the wrong people?".

The BIS will not allow the distribution of all gold to settle claims."


Confused? Let me briefly explain it as I understand it. In the first of the two comments, he said, "In the beginning…" That relates to the period from roughly 1990 through 1996, prior to the arrival of "Big Trader" and the jump in volume. Up at the top of the post, in another quote, he said, "And who in the hell would have thought that they would have used so much of that pay to buy gold! Some bought in tiny amounts and some bought in large amounts. This started with the new world trading order that came into being about six years ago." That quote was from April '97, so "about six years ago" probably meant around late 1990 to early 1991.

So "in the beginning", the CBs (not directly mind you, but through the LBMA gold dealers) found others with gold who would be willing to sell—to go short—their gold, with the implied promise that it could be repurchased at any time because the broker—the LBMA gold dealer—assured the seller that he had an assurance from the CBs that the CBs would supply physical "if needed to put out a fire." What's a fire? A fire is what the seller of the gold (the short) doesn't want—an explosion in the price while he doesn't have his gold.

"The CB held a very private note from the broker as insurance and was paid a small fee." The private note was a loan note, a promissory note, and the small fee was the gold interest rate, which the LBMA dealer paid the CB even though no real gold changed hands. This was a gold loan from the CB to the bullion bank, but the gold never left the CB vault. It was actually a cash loan at a very low interest rate, ~1%, but the promissory note held by the CB was denominated in gold ounces. It could be retired in cash at the price of gold which was expected to decline since the CBs promised to step in to put out a fire, or with actual ounces of physical received from the mines who hedged, if the price ever rose. Plus the CBs promised to roll the loan (not call it in upon maturity) if the price of gold rose. So, to the bullion banks, the cash was essentially free money that could be used to churn an income.

[5/15/99: "In addition, the CBs said they could roll it forward for ten years +/-, if the price of gold rose!"]

The borrowed cash was used to purchase the real gold from the party who was willing to sell his gold with the assurance that he'd be able to buy it back cheaper in the future. Then the purchased gold was sold to those who wanted only real physical gold, which was, in those days, the swing producer in the oil market, The House of Saud. It was then, and still is today, all about managing the subterranean flow of physical gold which is much tighter than the paper gold market makes it appear.

Those of you who are sharp gold market historians may remember the 90s as "the decade of gold sales". Throughout the decade, the price consistently declined, from $400 down to $250. And every time there was a big drop, there was a news story about another big sale. First it was the Saudis in 1990 who were reportedly selling their gold, driving down the price. Then it was Duisenberg and the DNB in 1993. Then the Belgians, and finally the BOE.

That was the mainstream narrative explaining the gold market in the '90s, but it is very different from what Another explained. And for those of you that remember the story, I wanted to mention the mysteriously large (~90 tonne) Saudi gold sale that was blamed for a sudden $23 drop in the price, and was also denied by the Saudis even though London bullion dealers (LBMA members) insisted it was them.

If it was not a short sale, which no one claimed it was, then it was the sale of a "gold" position that had been previously purchased. In other words, it was the unwinding of a long position. Now think about something Another said: "As all of these transactions are done thru certain merchant banks, not direct CB contact, the buy side does hold hedges…" That would be a long position hedge, to lock in the purchase price until an actual physical order could be filled. "…When actual delivery takes place, months later… these hedges come off and affect the market price."

Could the Saudi sale have been a long position hedge (to lock in a purchase price while waiting for physical to become available) that was unwound (sold) at the moment they received (actually purchased) the physical? This not only makes really good sense, it also explains both the dealer insistence that it was a Saudi "sale", and the Saudi denial, because the Saudis would have actually been buying physical and selling paper, which caused the market price to fall. Elegant solution to the mystery, right? This is kind of like what A/FOA's insights do for the whole macro "riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." They solve it… elegantly.


Okay, back to my "brief" explanation. Enter Big Trader: "This whole game was not lost on some very large buyers WHO WANTED GOLD BUT DIDN'T WANT IT'S MOVEMENT TO BE SEEN! Why not move a little closer to the action by offering cash directly to the broker/bank ( to be lent out ) in return for a future gold note that was indirectly backed by the CBs. That "paper gold" was just like gold in the bank. The CBs liked it because … it took BIG buying power off the market that would have gunned the price!"

…What looked like big money before turned out to be little money as some HK people, I'll call them "Big Trader" for short, moved in and started buying all the notes and physical the market offered. The rub was that they only bought low, and lower and cheaper. They never ran the price and they never ran out of money. Seeing this, some people ( middle east ) started to exchange their existing paper gold for the real stuff. From that time, early 1997 LBMA was running full speed just to stay in one spot! In other words paper volume had to increase to the physical volume on a worldwide scale, and that was going to be one hell of a jump. It could not be hidden from the news any longer."


So the Asians (in Hong Kong) found out that this cheap paper gold was implicitly backed by the CBs, therefore it was as good as the real thing because it could eventually be converted into physical, or so they thought. So they gave the LBMA gold dealers cash, and lots of it (as I said above, the paper gold "inflation" worked out to about $160B at the time), in exchange for a future gold note (a gold mine forward hedge note) that they thought would be backed by CB gold if the mines couldn't produce enough.

The LBMA gold dealers took this Asian cash and lent it to the miners in exchange for the gold-ounce-denominated promissory note. The bullion bank held the note on the miner and the Asians had a note from the bullion bank. But global mining output was only about 2,290 tonnes per year at that time, and $160B could have hedged 14,000 tonnes of future production, so not all of that money was lent to gold mines.

Enter the hedge funds and the gold carry trade. Gold loans (which were actually dollar loans with the promissory note denominated in ounces) were really cheap at the time, plus the price of gold was declining, making them even better than cheap! They were virtually free money that could be invested almost anywhere to churn an income. Everyone who was anyone wanted in on the deal. And the LBMA gold dealers were the middlemen, taking a percentage from every transaction.

The LBMA could get virtually free money, first from the CBs and later from the Asians, and lend it to, as Another put it, "mines, speculator or governments." Mines were the actual forward hedges, and the speculators and governments were the hedge funds and anyone else who wanted to short the barbarous relic that was seemingly in perpetual decline, and borrow virtually free money at the same time. Money was flowing, in large amounts, and the only catch was that the promissory notes were all denominated in ounces rather than dollars.

There's no problem with this setup for the borrowers (the gold shorts, primarily hedge funds and miners) as long as the price of gold is reliably declining and the gold interest rate is low. There's no problem for the CBs as long as the LBMA can manage the subterranean flow of physical to those buyers who only care about getting the real thing. There's no problem for the paper longs that don't care about physical as long as those that do can convert their paper to physical. There's no problem for the longs that eventually want to convert their paper to physical as long as they confidently can. And there's no problem for the LBMA bullion banks as long as they have the central banks' tacit agreement "to supply physical if needed to put out a fire."

There is, however, a big problem with this setup. But it only becomes apparent to someone who can see it as a unified whole. Another was apparently in a position to see the big picture early, as was Big Trader. The CBs eventually saw it, and were forced to sell a little gold while also retracting their tacit agreement "to supply physical if needed to put out a fire" on Sept. 26, 1999, which spiked the gold lease rate up to 10% and sent the price up 20% over seven days. The hedge funds and mines got out of the carry trade after the gold price started rising, but the paper gold longs are still oblivious to even the slightest problem with this setup. Even after 17 years.

I want to mention something now. I really don't want to make a big deal out of it because it's only speculation, but I think it goes well with this post. It was an afterthought, something that came out of my efforts while writing this post. And I think it may give a few people pause, or at least something to think about and consider its implications. I know a lot of people have their own idea about who Another is, was, or might have been. And I want to state for the record that I don't know who Another was, nor do I think it matters much because his words speak for themselves. But, while working on this post, I came across the best candidate for Another that I have ever laid eyes on.

Those earliest comments by Big Trader, Another and FOA, the ones prior to the USAGOLD archive, only became available to me less than two years ago. Before that, the earliest post from Another was this one which appeared in the Red Baron's LBMA series (my emphasis):

Date: Sun Sep 14 1997 21:12
ANOTHER (an answer?)

This could be an answer directed to the "Red Baron"?

The CBs are becoming "primary suppliers" to
the gold market. Understand that they are not
doing this because they want to, they have to.
The words are spoken to show a need to raise
capital but we knew that was a screen from
long ago. You will find the answer to the LBMA
problem if you follow a route that connects
South Africa, The middle east, India and then
into Asia!


Remember this; the western world uses paper
as a real value, but oil and gold will never
flow in the same direction.
Big Trader

Another referenced that comment two months later:

Date: Sat Nov 22 1997 23:13
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

This was written: "To find the answer to the LBMA , "Follow the connection from London, to South Africa, to the Middle East, and on to Asia"

Mr. Markus Angelicus,
I read the gold-eagle write. You have made the link between London ( LBMA ) and South Africa.

I read that comment while preparing this post, and I realized that now, with the old Kitco archives available, I could look up the Markus Angelicus comment to find out what it was that Another was confirming. It turns out that "Markus Angelicus" had written an article for Vronsky's Gold-Eagle site titled The Rothschilds, LBMA, and Gold, and Vronsky had posted a link to it on Kitco. That was what Another (or FOA) was responding to.

The only relevant reference to South Africa in the article was this: "Rothschild Freres, run by cousin Baron Guy Eduoard, was the largest private bank in France. The French House also controlled mining companies ( De Beers and gold mines in South Africa )…"

So, apparently, Another was confirming that the connection from the LBMA "to South Africa, to the Middle East, and on to Asia" was the House of Rothschild, or at least the link to South Africa.

I have had many people propose many candidates for Another to me over the years. But credit where credit is due, Mortymer proposed Guy de Rothschild as a candidate three years ago. And then FoNoah asked me to take a look at him as a candidate after I sent him the Markus Angelicus article while working on this post. I did, and, surprisingly, he fit my profile far better than anyone I've ever considered in the past. Admittedly, I didn't give Mortymer's proposal enough consideration at the time, but I also didn't have the additional information of Another's inference that Rothschild was a key connection.

I did look at other Rothschilds upon FoNoah's urging, but only Guy fit. And in case you're thinking that the French and English Houses of Rothschild are independent entities, as I mentioned earlier, today they are merged. In fact, the English side (N.M. Rothschild & Sons) is now wholly owned by the French side, and the whole shebang is controlled by Guy de Rothschild's eldest son David. Could he be SOA?

I always wondered if Another might have been directly (or indirectly) involved in the LBMA's decision to release its clearing volume 17 years ago. The Rothschilds certainly were! The Rothschilds not only headed the Fix for 85 years, but Mr. Robert Guy (I know, there's that name "Guy" again), a director at N.M. Rothschild, not only personally headed it from '74-'93, but he was also the first chairman of the LBMA, from '87-'91. And remember, from above, while still chairing the Fix and representing N. M. Rothschild's gold interests, but after retiring from the chairmanship of the LBMA, he was the first person pushing for transparency in the LBMA's turnover volume as early as 1992.

Here's a great article about the history of the LBMA, written by Robert Guy in 2012. And if you're thinking that you might now agree with me that Rothschild led the charge for more transparency in the LBMA, how about the charge to get the ECB to openly declare its intentions regarding gold, which it eventually did on Sept. 26, 1999? Well, check out the highlighted portion of this FT article, by none other than our old friend Kenneth Gooding, two years earlier in 1997:

Call for more gold reserve details
By Kenneth Gooding in Prague
Financial Times June 17, 1997, Tuesday LONDON EDITION 2

Central banks were yesterday urged to end the "fear factor" haunting the gold market by providing more information about what they intend to do with the gold in their official reserves.
Worries about central bank sales have helped to drive down the gold price this year, and there is particular concern about the policies of European banks ahead of the formation of a European Central Bank.

Mr Robert Guy, a director of N. M. Rothschild and Sons, told the Financial Times Gold Conference in Prague that there was a lack of information on sales.

"I hope those involved in the creation of the ECB will break their Trappist vows and share their views with the rest of us," he said. "In these days of transparency and accountability, I find it truly remarkable that we can still be given no clear picture about the role of gold in the event that European monetary union proceeds."

As I said at the top of this post, "if you're just laying eyes on this Freegold thing for the first time, you are in luck! As of today, if you have, say, $55,000 in surplus currency reserves sitting around, you can still exchange it for 43 ounces of real physical gold!" You can, if you want to, feel sorry for the poor souls that bought gold 17 years ago on Another's advice, but I know a few of them, and they don't feel sorry for themselves. They got 160 ounces or more for that same amount of money, and that's some serious wealth! I know a couple of them who got more like 200 ounces for that much currency, and they still have it today.

I'm not wrapping this up for lack of material. I could go on and on with A/FOA quotes explaining the big picture, thanks to the LBMA's revelation of its volume 17 year ago, which really opened the door for Another to speak out. I'm actually holding back a whole bunch of quotes that I pulled for this post, simply because it's already 22 pages long. They aren't really needed anyway, and I've already done it so many times in the past. Look at my blog. I do tend to go on and on, and it's all there—the big picture Freegold view as I learned it from Another—in the archives.

You might also be thinking, "gosh, 17 years. That's a long time. They must have been wrong… or something." Well, that's not how I see it. Again, it's all here in the archives, but it seems to me that what they explained actually makes more sense today, seems more inevitable and possibly even imminent, with the benefit of hindsight, than it did 17 years ago when it was written. At least it does to a shrimp like me. It takes a while to learn to think like a Rothschild. ;D

And if you're truly just seeing this for the first time, you are probably wondering, "What's the bottom line?" Well, again, it's all here in the archives on my blog. But sure, I'll cut to the chase, just for you. It's a necessary and inevitable revaluation of gold. That's not like a bull market run-up in the price. It's an overnight gap-up in the price, something the paper traders will have no say in, and something that won't happen to other "gold-ish" alternatives. Only the real stuff. And when it's done, in my opinion, you'll still be able to get a full ounce of real 24-karat gold for the same amount of austerity that it took you to save up that $55K you have today. That doesn't mean the money you have right now will still buy you a full ounce after revaluation, but if you saved it once, hey, you can do it again. Right?

17 years is indeed a long time. But with Another's very different perspective, we can see what happened during that time, and how things are looking right now. Over the last 17 years, every ounce of new gold was purchased, and the "old gold" worked its way into stronger and stronger hands. The LBMA volume today is almost the same as it was when they started collecting data in October of '96, at least in ounce-denominated terms. In currency terms, and number of transfers, it has tripled.

Hedge funds and mines got out of the gold carry trade, for the most part, once the price started rising. The CBs stopped selling and started buying gold in aggregate around 2010, with one of the largest single purchases by a CB being Saudi Arabia, who purchased 180 tonnes.

It has always been, and still is today, all about the flow of physical which underlies the paper gold market but has very little to do with its price. This is evident today, just as it was 17 years ago in 1997, but the conditions, players and incentives are very different today. The weak hands are empty, the CBs are no longer suppliers, scrap is down, mines are under pricing pressure, and "Big Trader" is apparently back in the hunt. My best advice is to get some insurance on the present value of your savings ASAP. 5% of your savings in physical gold should be a no-brainer. And then take a closer look at the big picture Another painted. You might decide, like me, to buy a little more. ;D

"Who am I? As I will not be around for long so I am noone. But, follow with me as all of this takes place in your time!" -Another

Sincerely,
FOFOA





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FOA (06/12/01; 11:23:21MT - usagold.com msg#77)

This was "part" of the price we paid for oil to flow in dollars this last decade as the Euro was born. This was the price we paid for an extension of dollar use in oil settlement. It will be moved when gold trades at a much,,,,, much higher price. It backs Another's point of long ago that oil was traded for gold in the thousands at that time,,,, we just had to wait for the real price to be shown. It will! This is the decades long game we are playing for, my friend. This is the big one we own gold for. This will be the defining moment in our time that changes perceptions about the value, reserve currencies and the wealth of ages. Watch with me now, as events prove all things!


545 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 545   Newer›   Newest»
Phat Repat said...

Phil_O_Dendron
"Indeed the US has a great deal of gold still in the ground. The difficulty is getting it out because you can't get by all of the other alphabet soup regulatory agencies of Federal and State gov."

Yes, and that's a good thing, at the moment. Wouldn't that change under FG?

Jonas narrowly states...
"In the west a word is just a word, yet another tool to get the job done!"

That is not just a western phenom; that is everywhere. And as a result, there should be no compunction to deliver on agreements that, quite often, were not properly executed by all involved. Any reset will include the language to absolve all prior agreements lest we move towards the obvious and undesirable conclusion; WWIII.

RevolutionOfNations said...

Phat Repat, but is it a middle east phenomenon?? China, Russia, US, EU, Africa.. Yes everywhere! But if you read about Bedouins and Arab culture and how families and tribes have kept their promises for centuries in order to keep peace with each other, you will understand.

RevolutionOfNations said...

Phat Repat, this dynamic is the key to Afghanistan, something no "nation" will ever figure out. It's all about people eventually...

Phat Repat said...

Jonas
Unfortunately it crosses all groups; because that's part of the human condition. Right, wrong, doesn't matter; it is what it is. I would be happy to be proven wrong, in time.

I do like your YouTube link, however. Especially when it gets to the part about the Banker. That did get a chuckle out of me.

Anonymous said...

Jonas, I'm sorry but... you just went there.

RevolutionOfNations said...

The Saudi family is one with a lot of promises, to so many tribes, and so many families.... They don't stand a chance of maintaining power in Arabia(the proper name). After the fiasco of Syria, they lost all credibility.

RevolutionOfNations said...

poopyjim, Ha ha!!! Awesome!! -Full Retard ahead!!

RevolutionOfNations said...

Phat Repat:
"because that's part of the human condition"
-At least you know.. That will be of huge advantage in the coming years.

Biju said...

Anand,

I read recently about some bitcoin Robbery from Silk Road 2. I don't know anything about bitcoin, but this "internet absolute anonymity" will kill whatever credibility that bitcoin has. Correct me if wrong.

http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/02/13/silk-road-2-hacked-bitcoins-stolen-unknown-amount/

Let us compare a fraudulent fiat transactions to bitcoin hacking, we do

- individual transaction writing bad check. both sides are known by a neutral party(Bank). No one can write or present a bad check forever.

- credit card transaction : both merchant and buyer(credit card swiper) are known. For a fraud transaction, both parties may be unknown only for a few days, but not forever like bitcoin.

- Ebay transaction : Here also the seller's and buyer's financial end of identity is known by paypal/Ebay. Repeated scamming will be prevented.

The only place where a person can repeatedly steal is when a person has like Million Dollar's of counterfeit notes in a foreign country. The person can transact using total anonymity without any repercussions. Here again there is some check in that, the counterfeiter has to use multiple agents to distribute cash fast(before they are identified) and it is not totally anonymous because faces are remembered and the counterfeiter has to move fast.

Bitcoin hacking or spoofing is totally anonymous without any repercussions. I don't know if even law enforcement will help you to track any malicious transaction.


I read some news that bitcoin is trading now at $500. Without credibility, it loses value fast. I was speculating a bitcoin price of 1B=$20 and I am sticking to that.

M said...

FOFOA and all

Has anyone seen the documentary " The Prize. Epic Quest for Oil, Money and Power" ?

At 31:22, part 5 of 8 on Youtube, http://youtu.be/IIJxBrHcSUo?t=33m27s They have a short clip of a guy by the name of Gwin Follis, He was a former chairman of Standard Oil of California.

In it he says :

"We made an agreement with Saud that we would give him gold for every ton of oil we took out of his country, we would give him gold. And we did at first. Then we got producing more and more and more.. And try to find gold schillings to meet the requirements so we could ship another ton. And finally we had to tell him that we couldn't find that much gold. There wasn't that much gold. We had now, such an enormous business that we cleaned the world of gold schilling."

Im still at part 5. Its a great doc but that's the only reference to freegold so far..

Anonymous said...

How brainwashed am I if I'm "all in" and at the same time getting pissed with the recent up-trend in price? :-)
And what's up with GLD?? I want those holdings to go down goddamn it!!
Is support coming back from somewhere?
Oh well, I guess I could use a couple more years to increase the stack.

Anand Srivastava said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
KnallGold said...

I propose Kaku and Jonas for the Nobel price in Alchemy!

Joe, I'd say its "inflation lifts all boats". Didn't consider this much before though it could be quite transitional.

Motley Fool said...

Joe Vanderbult

You sound like a properly brainwashed gold hoarding cult member to me. :P

TF

KnallGold said...

"SINGAPORE, Feb 13 (Reuters) - The Chinese Gold & Silver Exchange Society (CGSE), based in Hong Kong, aims to launch a physical bullion trading exchange and a 1,500-tonne depository in mainland China within the next year, its president said on Thursday. ..

CGSE's Cheung said if tax exemptions were granted in Qianhai, the exchange could attract international players and gold refiners.

"We are trying to develop a free-trade platform to attract U.S. dollar and other foreign currencies into Qianhai," he said. "

Physical. 1500t depository. Smokes da Comix...
And where is the West? Still smoking Gold rendered papers???

http://www.sharenet.co.za/news/Hong_Kong_gold_exchange_eyes_1500T_warehouse_in_mainland_China/6be62859c59241d316dc9402838d053d

Phat Repat said...

Yes, rather interesting situation in China now. As I have been told, there is no paper trading of Au on the mainland but they DO allow the paper trading of Ag. That just might lead to some rather wild swings in the paper price of Ag; for those so inclined. ;-)

Tommy2Tone said...


Like these KG?

;)

KnallGold said...

jojo: lol, although I got seriously distracted by the "landscapes" first ;-)

What I found most interesting is the tax exemptions thing. Actively attracting foreign capital. How's this right now with taxes on Gold in China, as foreigners?

Building the Gold based, Old School Economy. Guess at some point Europe and mid east will also chime in, like Dubai, Frankfurt and Zurich, the locations FOA projected many years ago. He called it EBES, the euro bullion exchange system.

Go Qianhai Go!

PS: more of a crazy thought, did the flow of Gold come closer to a halt late 2013 than we thought? What would you do to keep the transition smooth until the trading facilities become operational? Nothing meets the eye anymore, just guessing...

Anonymous said...

Paper GLD up, +9.4%
GDX Miners up, +25.04%
GLD inventory increasing, +15 tonnes added

I thought paper gold was crashing and the tonnes of GLD were moving east? Is this just a temporary setback, or does the narrative of the blog/commentators need to be revised?

Will be interesting to see VtC explain this one.

Woland said...

Hi M;
as you may know, it's also a book - ("The Prize" by Daniel Yergin), and is widely recognized as the best general work
on the subject of international oil history. enjoy!

Archer said...

You can always count on assholes like porcelain god to show up and heckle when they think the wind is at their back. Yeah, there's a bounce in paper derivatives. News flash: pulling support doesn't equate to lobbing hand grenades at the paper market. It's going to go tits but not because anyone is actively trying to do it in. In the meantime western paper pushers will fool dipsticks like you into mistaking technical moves- which will occur right up until the last moments of paper gold's existence-for evidence that nothing has changed, is changing and will change.

Archer said...

It's going to go tits up...

KnallGold said...

A tribute to the Porcelain God - Mephisto Walz

Lay down and drive
Lay down and die
Drive this bed into the sky
With your love of god
With your love of god

Down on our knees
Pray to your gods
..

Happy Weekend to the Cult! Time to think about how they will fill that 1500t vault, besides the 2000t one which was also mentioned. With 800t left in GLD they'll surely have to make Another couple of orders. And westerners bet on it, think paper will do :-(

Anonymous said...

athrone said...

"Paper GLD up, +9.4%
GDX Miners up, +25.04%
GLD inventory increasing, +15 tonnes added

I thought paper gold was crashing and the tonnes of GLD were moving east? Is this just a temporary setback, or does the narrative of the blog/commentators need to be revised?

Will be interesting to see VtC explain this one. "

Perhaps Germany still had some physical gold left that was just begging for rehyopthecation? Then again, I wonder were Saudi Arabia stores some of their physical gold? Hey Saudi Arabia, its 12 o-clock, do you know where ‘all’ your physical gold is? My guess is that 500 tons of GLD doesn’t actually exist in physical form within the vault as well. It was ‘leased’ out to the generated cash flow needed to run the fund. Thus DEFCON 1 is actually closer than the Freegold chart shows. Who knows maybe I’m off by 200 tons. They could be close to hitting bottom right now. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least given the general level of lawlessness rampant in the financial world.

http://www.freegoldclock.org/

Regardless, when the tide goes out those with real gold in their physical possession and those with worthless IOUs will finally be revealed. It will take at least a generation before anyone attempts to store net production within a paper ponzi scheme every again. Paper will serve only two very useful purposes, a medium of exchange and process that even athrone is well aware of.

Tommy2Tone said...

"Is this just a temporary setback, or does the narrative of the blog/commentators need to be revised?"

Yes! Inquiring (simple)minds want to know. The rest of the world is black and white. Surely the gold market and the superorganism is black and white.

Tommy2Tone said...

For the record Archer, I love tits. Can't get or see enough.
Bring em!

Sam said...

When a slight breeze can blow your thoughts this way and that you may be lacking in foundation. Freegold is nothing but foundation. I wouldn't worry about the words of people that have always proven to be all sail and no boat.

Archer said...

I like tits too, jojo, but not boobs.

M said...

@ Athrone

Not all freegolders share the same opinion as to how freegold will be ushered in. Some think it will be through a paper price breakdown and some believe it will be when paper gold is shooting up. Another himself said, it will be when paper gold slices through $10,000 an once.

I think/hope it will be on the upside to revive some of my jr. mining plays.

Archer said...

Include me out of the group, a small one I imagine, that thinks you'll ever see a paper price in real terms of, for example, $10,000. The only way such a price will cross the screen is precisely because paper can't source physical except, perhaps, in the most paltry amounts. The market would be in a no offer environment necessitating such a print.

As for mining shares, consider that in this scenario they would be, in essence, dead in the water. Perhaps you might be able to unload them, but, once such a number appeared on the screen, the time frame for doing so would be over. I would be surprised if trading was not halted in mining shares as part of this occurrence.

In nominal terms, as a result of a currency collapse, I can see how such a print could easily arise, but it would be meaningless since it would just be nominal.

whatever-fits said...

I have been following this blog for a few years and agree with much of the premise that gold will at some point find a much higher value against the dollar and likely all fiat. The point with which I am having some trouble is accepting the notion that somehow the EU will be the catalyst for freeing gold to find it's true unmanipulated price. That premise is conditional on the Eurozone being a functioning entity which in my opinion is looking less and less viable. So with the EU in a state of chaos how will the scenario play out?

Tommy2Tone said...

no time right now but Whatever fits, look for the post called euro gold to get started. Your concern has been brought up dozens of times and there are several posts dealing with it.
Read read read this blog.

Edwardo said...

whatever fits,

The EU and The Euro are not synonymous, and however distressed some areas of the EU are, the Euro isn't going to disappear. It is infinitely more capable of facing an existential threat- see their balance sheet, line item one on the asset side of the ledger- than its coeval, the dollar. That said, few, if here are claiming that, as you put it, the EU will be the catalyst for freeing gold. The ECB may or may not be the entity that breaks the glass and pushes the button, but the catalyst for taking such an action, such as the physical gold flow dwindling to a trickle, will lie elsewhere. In any event, the key takeaway is that the Euro/ECB is prepared.

Knotty Pine said...

@ whatever fits,

As jojo said the topic of the Euro and it's relevance to freegold has been discussed here. I would suggest Synthesis from 2010 as a great place to start. Here is an excerpt:

"Freegold is our destination with or without the euro. Even on the outside chance that an SDR or a similar super-sovereign currency is accepted as the new global reserve currency, it would have to contain gold at Freegold valuations in order to be viable, accepted and trusted, in the same vein as Randy's comment about an EMF. So any way you cut it, the future comes to us with really high value gold by today's standards.

Be sure to get your share while we are still living on Fantasy Island."

Knotty Pine said...

@freegoldtube,

I really enjoyed the "Dust in The Wind" video. Thank you.

M said...

@ Archer

"perhaps, in the most paltry amounts. The market would be in a no offer environment necessitating such a print. "

Big money could play the market up to a price like that. Maybe the big money will be happy to trade paper at those prices while physical in weight is out of reach for the rest of the world.

Lots of unimaginable things have happened in the markets since 2007. Nothing makes any logical sense.


Anonymous said...

Edwardo said...

“It (Euro) is infinitely more capable of facing an existential threat- see their balance sheet, line item one on the asset side of the ledger- than its coeval, the dollar.”

Sorry, I think every currency on the Earth is capable of following in the footsteps to Euro. The only question is how much physical gold each nation has and thus by extension the exchange rate necessary to soak up all the excess currency in existence with physical gold. The amount of gold the citizens have is also a key variable along with the gold mining rates of each nation.

In short Freegold is all about trade imbalances being settled from time to time with the flow of physical gold. The feature that Euro has may be unique now but will absolutely need to become common amongst all nations in order for freegold to work effectively.

I would also suggest that Euros held as one and zeros in a 100/1 leveraged insolvent European bank are fundamentally different than physical currency notes or worse Euro bonds. I figure why mess with any of this, just hold physical gold while you can still buy it at shrimp prices. It is still to be seen what the ECB will do with the rioting in the streets when a deflationary depression hits because they won’t give into demands to paper over the credit collapse with paper. They may very well keep on marking the Euro to gold, but that won’t change the fact that each new Euro will buy less and less physical gold.

In my mind the whole concept of freegold is get away from a central bank backing of the fiat via gold held in vault. The whole point is to let the net producucers within a nation determine the direction of flow amongst other net producers in other nations based on the relative value of the goods and services the need and produce.

In short imagine a world without central planning, crony capitalism and kleptocratic accumulation of wealth, just free markets and free people making and trade with each other what makes economic sense.

“They say that I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one”

Edwardo said...

Spaul writes:

Sorry, I think every currency on the Earth is capable of following in the footsteps to Euro

I wasn't talking about every currency, just the one that matters most presently.

Freegoldtube said...

KP,

Thank You Very Much

Archer said...

M wrote,

Big money could play the market up to a price like that. Maybe the big money will be happy to trade paper at those prices while physical in weight is out of reach for the rest of the world.

After all the time you've spent out here I can hardly believe you are suggesting anything so silly. Do you really not understand that without the necessary physical in size that the paper market goes poof. Paper needs physical, but it's not even remotely a reciprocal arrangement. Even if some big money were so daft that they would choose to deploy funds into such a condition, the market won't exist to allow them to do it.

said...

Paper doesn't need physical. Unallocated bullion can be created much like the usd.

whatever-fits said...

Thanks, I appreciate your comments and will follow up on these references. I am well situated as far preparation. Having discerned an interesting inverse correlation between real estate saleability and gold valuation since I first invested in physical in the mid 1970's. Amazingly and totally coincidentally, I made substantial investments after selling my company in 1999. So no worries there. Now at my age I am thinking how to adjust for the consequences of the next crisis in terms of supporting my community and family.

Archer said...

Luke, at the level that matters, paper needs physical or it's lights out. Don't think like a shrimp.

said...

At the level that matters, does paper exist?

Indenture said...

Luke: Why do Giants accept paper as payment?

M said...

@ Archer

"After all the time you've spent out here I can hardly believe you are suggesting anything so silly. "

The machinations of the paper gold vs physical gold topic is not my area of expertise to say the least.

Things are happening in markets that literally make no logical or mathematical sense. So how can you count any scenario out ?


Sam said...

How many dollars do you have in your bank account? The answer is zero. You have digital dollar credits, a promise from your bank to deliver physical dollars on demand. You even get paid interest on your “investment” with the bank. The government even offers insurance up to a certain amount to make this a “risk free” investment, but we all know (after seeing AIG) that insurance can also go belly up. But I wouldn’t worry. These digital credits work just fine as long as there are some physical dollars circulating around at *the same price* and nobody has trouble getting any physical dollars on demand from their bank. If physical dollars demanded a premium there would be a problem, if they went into hiding it would end the game. The digital credits need the dollars to function but the dollars don’t really need digital credits, in fact if digital credits didn’t exist (the world would be less convenient) but dollars wouldn’t really care. The risk of a bank run resulting from everyone realizing there are way more digital credits for dollars than physical dollars is virtually zero, because dollars can, if needed, be printed up on demand.
Now lets take a look at gold and paper gold. Gold credits, futures, ect. can circulate around just like the digital dollar credits do but there must be some physical gold getting bought and sold for *the same price*. Also just like the physical dollars, people that want to exchange their paper gold for physical gold must be able to get the physical on demand. Just like digital dollar credit and dollars paper gold needs physical gold in order to function but physical gold would be just fine without the paper. Here in lies the problem. Physical gold can’t be printed. So if there is in fact more paper gold than physical gold, and less and less physical gold is selling for the synchronized paper/physical gold price, the paper gold market will no longer be able to function.

Michael Martin said...

spaul said:

Sorry, I think every currency on the Earth is capable of following in the footsteps to Euro. The only question is how much physical gold each nation has and thus by extension the exchange rate necessary to soak up all the excess currency in existence with physical gold. The amount of gold the citizens have is also a key variable along with the gold mining rates of each nation.

I know I will have to read, re-read and re-read the blog but still one thing is nagging me. If we are not returning to a gold-backed currency system for freegold, why am I still reading in the comments that "gold has to soak-up all the currency in existence" as part of its revaluation?
It is not like gold is the only thing you can exchange for currency so why would gold "soak-up" currency and why not some other product? (e.g. silver, houses, ipads, etc.)

Sam said...

You shouldn't read that very often Michael because it isn't correct. Gold (unencumbered by derivatives) will become a proper a store of value, rather than what is currently used, namely debt. The higher value for gold won't match the amount of currency (credit) in the world. It's value will be a derivative of wealth/savings.

Archer said...

I just told you why your scenario won't occur. Perhaps the most valuable feature of this blog is that the narrative offered by FOFOA has provided an understanding of phenomenon of the sort that you feel defies logic or the laws of mathematics. The rest of the financial blogosphere, particularly the gold analysis part of it, are, in the main, clueless where they aren't incoherent, but here, at least for a goodly number, the bizarre twist and turns, the singularity-which is the area around the black hole where the laws of physics no longer seem to apply, which coincides with your view of where things now stand in the markets - isn't such a head scratching, not to say thoroughly confounding mystery. The steps the monetary authorities have taken in response to the black hole of debt are certainly warping markets in interesting ways, but when it comes to the gold market, the physical gold market, which is obscured by the illusory (and slated for the dust bin of history) paper market, well, the buck stops there, literally and figuratively.

When the above ground physical in size stops flowing, which will probably happen in conjunction with the dimming of the horizon of mining production, the laws of mathematics will show themselves to have been alive and well despite having been temporarily obscured by a great but ultimately fleeting financial phantasmagoria.
Sent from my iPad

Jeff said...

'It is not like gold is the only thing you can exchange for currency so why would gold "soak-up" currency and why not some other product? (e.g. silver, houses, ipads, etc.)'

FOFOA: Buying a physical item transfers that purchasing power to the physical plane by exerting upward pressure on physical things and downward pressure on the currency. Buying gold isolates, contains and focuses that pressure on one point for the benefit of all.

(...)

Gold is the only super-tank. It can absorb any flow the world throws at it without popping. It is stronger than all the pressure that is possible because of its uniquely large stock to flow ratio. And also the fact that the large stock is held in extremely strong hands that I like to call Giants and CBs. These Giants are the real-world producers and titans of today and yesterday, including a lot of real old-money Giants.

(...)

Lastly, understand that currency flows through assets, not into them. In fact, a limited amount of dollars can flow through the same gold many times, over and over, driving it higher and higher with each pass, as long as new gold stock is not coaxed out of hiding. And the interesting thing in this process is that, as I said above, it actually causes the opposite of the expected supply/demand reaction. With each pass-through of the dollar more "flow gold" is moved into "stock gold", not the other way around like commodities and paper.

This is the feedback loop. It is confirmation to the gold investor that his gold is a good investment. And it also says something very distinct about the alternatives. Namely that they are failing. And with this confirmation, it is from existing gold holders that less supply comes. This is not true of any other investment class because they all have objective metrics for valuation or economically limiting forces. All except gold.

Brady said...

Michael, here's another good read:

http://fofoa.blogspot.ca/2010/03/synthesis.html

A few quotes:

"Here is an important question: Is it theoretically possible for a fiat currency to devalue, or more precisely, to hyper-depreciate against only one single asset without affecting the price of a can of peas?

Of course it is! Just look at any number of investments that have appreciated quickly by an order of magnitude or two. Look at GOOG! Or how about AAPL? When an asset appreciates against a currency can we not also view it as the currency depreciating against that one asset? Or more precisely, can we not say that the asset was awaiting massive revaluation based on market recognition of its value?

Now, what if the revalued asset is gold, a monetary asset held by Central Banks? What could such a revaluation do to today's dynamics of national debt?"

and

"The US dollar MUST devalue (one way or another) against the entire physical world. Think about this. The euro, on the other hand, might just hyper-depreciate against only one specific asset. An asset that happens to also be a MONETARY asset held by its member debtors."

and

"The hyperinflation of the dollar is already a done deal. It has been since the 90's at least. Massive quantities of perceived dollars already exist stored in debt held globally and inside the US. Europe knows this. They have known this was inevitable since at least the mid-90's when they changed plans and went with higher gold reserves for the new ECB. They have always been willing to wait for it to happen naturally, unless the EU itself faces an existential threat from debt brought on by the $IMFS. And in this case, I believe their only option is a targeted hyper-depreciation of the euro.

By "targeted", I mean that the euro devaluation would be targeted to go only into gold. Gold can absorb a devaluation if you do it carefully, and in turn devalue the debt without causing inflationary havoc.

Of course this would cause the hyper-depreciation of the dollar as well. Only the dollar's collapse would be against all of creation, not just one asset."

and

"The European plan was to support the $IMFS at least until a new fiat "reserve" currency could be established, one large enough to absorb the shock of a failing reserve currency, to avoid being forced back 100 years into a physical gold-based economy which would have been very traumatic. This effort took 20 years from 1980."

Archer said...

Jeff writes:

Gold is the only super-tank. It can absorb any flow the world throws at it without popping. It is stronger than all the pressure that is possible because of its uniquely large stock to flow ratio. And also the fact that the large stock is held in extremely strong hands that I like to call Giants and CBs. These Giants are the real-world producers and titans of today and yesterday, including a lot of real old-money Giants.

Indeed, and there is massive degree of confusion amongst the vast majority of commentators on this point.

Here's an example of some unhelpful bloviation:

For all the rantings about hyperinflation and the demise of the dollar as the reserve currency, the fallacy of this constant preaching is quite plain and straight forward. WHERE DOES MONEY GO IN THE ALTERNATIVE? While the gold promoters tell you it is only gold, after the German Hyperinflation the new currency was backed by tangible assets – real estate.

Do you spot the confusion? Sam offers a corrective:

You shouldn't read that very often Michael because it isn't correct. Gold (unencumbered by derivatives) will become a proper a store of value, rather than what is currently used, namely debt. The higher value for gold won't match the amount of currency (credit) in the world. It's value will be a derivative of wealth/savings.

It's not currency, a MOE, that one should juxtapose against gold, a SOV, but, rather, debt (the slated to be) deposed SOV.

KnallGold said...

Houses? We've seen how this ended Michael :-(

As they say, there is matter, dark matter and it doesn't matter. Gold belongs to the latter so it serves as the best sponge to soak up liquidity.

Gold, get you some. Because it doesn't matter.

said...

Indenture-

Do they accept paper(unallocated) gold?

said...

Paper gold requires physical gold to a point. But to expand paper gold supply, it doesn't require more physical to be added.

Victory said...

glimpsing the hereafter:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?s[1][id]=FGMGSSQ027S#

this is the trajectory of a post revaluation graph, courtesy of the st. louis fed

Victory said...

flat-line - you can really see when gold died in this graph...the flow must be resuscitated who's got the defibrillator!?

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=saG

Victory said...

last one...

Gold has been leaving the US in increasing large amounts. This was last updated Dec 2012 (annual stats), will be interesting to see 2013 numbers

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=saI

Indenture said...

Luke: My question was, ’Why do Giants accept paper as payment? Do you consider Dollars "paper(unallocated) gold"?

Michael dV said...

Victory
I don't think that the graph is unexpected. When gold was taken out of the system by Nixon 'monetary gold' (ie between central banks) would stop flowing. After all they had the dollar 'even better than gold'™ to move around. Who needed all that heavy stuff?

said...

Yes, but I feel they serve different functions. Giants aren't holding "paper" dollars so they can ultimately obtain physical dollars.

One Bad Adder said...

The transition to a FreeGold environment can be likened to a Horse-race ...and we are AGAIN in the home-straight and but a furlong from the Winning-post.
The problem is that this may NOT be the last lap and we may well need to complete yet Another go-round.
This weeks source of irrational exhuberation is (as per usual) $IRX which is "again" threatening to go negative yield.
All the Ducks are lined up this week ...and it'll take some really quick-footedness by TPTB to deflect a rush into the here n' now, the likes of which will be talked about for eons.

We watch!

Victory said...

Hi Michael dv, no not unexpected I just wanted to use the word 'defibrillator' in a sentence :-)

Anonymous said...

Archer,

If you've been following this blog for several years, you will recall a time when Gold was rapidly climbing and everyone here thought Gold was about to "slice through $10,000", in the words of another. Then the price started dropping like a rock and everyone thought that paper Gold would drop to $0 as "all forms of paper gold will burn" again in the words of Another.

Now it seems the price of Gold is pausing, and possibly resuming its upward climb. So what happens now, after the Freegold followers have been split into two groups, or more? Maybe everything we've seen over the last decade is actually the result of a different market dynamic and the ghost of Another is just that, a ghost? Or maybe not.

"We watch this new gold market, together, yes?"

S P said...

athrone:
There were many things Another did not anticipate. 9/11 and the wars in the M.E., the financial crisis brought on by spiking oil prices and the subsequent mopping up of government bonds by central banks by fiat money creation, all of these are very messy things intended to expand the dollar timeline at all costs.

The system managers don't want freegold. Freegold limits them. It's not a solution that leads to infinitely expanding wealth and asset bubbles and mansions and yachts and endless coke and sex parties. It, in fact, puts an end to them.

This is one of the misunderstandings of this blog and many have pointed it out. Freegold cannot happen without serious chaos and reform in the world! It's not a "way out" for anybody, and it isn't going to preserve the industrial system as we know it.

It might be an inevitable natural development, but it's still going to be fought tooth and nail. Think of an individual organism, whether human or otherwise. They are going to lose the battle against death but nevertheless they will struggle until the very end. It's the same for any organization, businesses, countries, empires.

They don't change willingly for the good of all. They only change by the sheer force of historical events, which ultimately involves collateral damage.

Was everybody in Germany or Russia a bad guy, complicit in totalitarianism, evil systems? Obviously not, but they were swept up in events that were beyond their control. We live in similar times now.

We can hoard all the gold we want, and we could still meet with a horrible end. Personally, I don't think this will happen for most who have gold. Most who have gold will do better.

Michael dV said...

Victory
for your next arrythmia vocab challenge, work 'Wolff Parkinson White' into a sentence.

Sam said...

@athrone

You certainly are a dangerous detractor to the casual reader. You're careful to always sound reasonable and level headed while simultaneously misinterpreting freegold in the most subtle of ways. It would be a lot of work to be as close as you are but wrong every time so I assume you do it on purpose You have no chance of confusing archer, as he is well read and extremely bright, but I feel for the casual lurker. If I hadn't read this entire blog (most posts 2-3 times) I would think that you had valid points. I hope most possess the curiosity to read the trail and FOFOA's posts and make up their own mind.

Predictions of when and how freegold will phase in to our world are just that. They are logical timing guesses. Even Another @ FOA said "I don't know" and "grab the children and run" if you thought they could predict the future (short term). If you want to challenge the foundations of freegold (I doubt you know what they are) feel free to start lobbing boulders at the correct wall.

Sam said...

@SP

I would just say the system with $IMFS in your comment above. We are all part of the global monetary system and this battle does in fact have two sides on the highest levels. It's not a case of the people vs world governments. Secondly, the $IMFS don't have the power to hold things together, it has been held together by the very people that would benefit from freegold. I do think a decision has been made to let freegold happen on its own naturally, rather than by force, but I think the precise reason for this is to avoid or at least minimize chaos, war, ect.

Indenture said...

If we are going to use one of Another's quotes to prove a point please use the entire quote.

"How much further can they take this? The world private stockpiles that could be sold have been. The CBs are heavy into their own stuff now and are over their heads if they had to make good on all the private deals ( read my other posts ) . The economic game is ending now and has been from the start of 1997! Watch closely as the world currencies and markets fall one by one. Watch in absolute wonder as the demand for oil plunges and it's price goes thru the roof. Yes, oil stocks will crash with the markets. And gold? You will never know it's price. It will stop all trading as it slices thru $10,000+."

Now that we have the quote in context shall we read it together for a full interpretation?

M said...

@ S P

"There were many things Another did not anticipate. 9/11 and the wars in the M.E., the financial crisis brought on by spiking oil prices and the subsequent mopping up of government bonds by central banks by fiat money creation, all of these are very messy things intended to expand the dollar timeline at all costs."

None of which has managed to put the brakes on Expriv.

You have to wonder if anything will. As Peter Schiff says, the US might be able to find aliens from another planet to come in and buy US bonds.

Anonymous said...

Sam,

Have you read the comments on all those posts as well?

What I am referring to is not only the content of FOFOA's posts, but the general sentiment of the posters who have been commenting both as Gold was rising (remember FOFOA used to update his list of "Gold above $13xx, Gold above 14xx"?) but then switched to posting about Gold falling (pasting snippets from dozens of Twitter followers "cheering" the April drop to below $1400) -- as if it was a sign of paper diverging from physical.

So the sentiment here changes along with price. It seems when it is going up that is good for Freegold, and when it is going down, that is good as well.

So it seems it doesn't matter what the price does because the interpretation of Another covers it either way, hmm?

Dante_Eu said...

Finally you got it Athrone. ;-)

Yes, if you understand Freegold, the price doesn't matter.

And you can sleep well, knowing Giants and CBs have your back.

Motley Fool said...

Yes!

Since Another obviously wasn't clairvoyant he is obviously a fraud!

The old bastard didn't even tell me this week's lotto numbers.

Ken_C said...

As Yogi says "Making predictions is very difficult - especially about the furure."

Indenture said...

M: A cessation of the flow of gold will put an end to Expriv.

Sam said...

@athrone

FOFOA never said, "buy gold today its going to go up 40%!" If you believe in a reval you would never say "sell now its going to go down 30%!" That's not the message. He also isn't responsible for individual commenters (or heaven forbid he would be responsible for you). During the gold bull market we observed how the Euro zone treated gold. They welcomed a rising price as it strengthened their balance sheet. This is unprecedented, as all other currency zones in history are designed to fight a rising gold price. Very important people observed this.

Now some of us are speculating that support has been withdrawn for paper gold and the gold price fell back to the production price. But this has little to do with the freegold message. I repeat, the current spot price of gold is not really an important part of the freegold message. The message is that you need to buy and hold physical gold at anywhere between $200-$3000 ASAP. Not because it's going to go up or down a few bucks, but because it's going to one day revalue at a MUCH higher price. Until that day there aren't really any price predictions of note.

M said...

@ Indenture

Speaking of Exprive, funny how everything that happened in 2008 slowed down the trade deficit for the polar opposite reasons logic would dictate it should have.

Rather then the dollar falling, which would have decreased the dollars ability to import (putting the brakes on as FOFOA says) it rose. And gold fell, and borrowing costs for the US fell, and exporter currencies fell ect.

So when you look at the trade deficit chart for the US in 2008, you would have thought the dollar was falling. But instead, the only reason the trade deficit fell was because the rest of the world temporarily lost its ability in the physical plane, to feed the US's trade deficit.

The financial plane of the US, over powered the physical plane of the rest of the world.

byiamBYoung said...

Athrone,

If you read enough to understand (history and facts, not rhetoric), you can see that the price of gold is not driven by the physical metal, but by the giant paperish gold market. So, if the price goes up, it means nothing. If the price goes down, it means nothing (except a buying opportunity).

And I am waving my freegold foam finger in the air as I type this. High price=Yay Freeegold! Low price= Yaaay Freeeegold!

KnallGold said...

Dante_Eu: "Finally you got it Athrone. ;-) Yes, if you understand Freegold, the price doesn't matter.."

The "zero yield and it doesn't matter cult" :-)

Spot is on the $ exchange rate, what does it say? Together with OBA's charts, hmmm...

While CB's bought less Gold:
"..Central banks added 61 tons to gold reserves in the fourth quarter, the least since the end of 2010, and full-year purchases declined 32 percent to 368.6 tons, according to the council. .."

Or should we say "were not able to buy more Gold"?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-18/gold-demand-dropped-15-as-etp-sales-outpaced-record-purchases.html?cmpid=yhoo

Beer Holiday said...

To all those who are panicking about the POG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFd7hrUKjqQ

Here is what true panic looks like :-) (a three litre turbo monster)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81aWGepjVvk

The above car was originally called "Panic" :-)

Beer Holiday said...

Just out of interest - the cars referenced above were originally called " Chasers", that is, they were police cars down under!

They're obviously kind of lame, but I always had the plan to buy one on the cheap after 25+ years later.

Forget it! Everyone else had the same idea, they cost more than a brand new Mazda 2. And they cost a fortune to maintain. I chalk it up to the wealth savings effect (of even the middle class) that FOFOA describes which hasn't even really kicked in IMHO.

Aquilus said...

On Twitter we had some BTC conversations about BTC as a store of value. I had promised I would post about it there. I just did, but maybe someone here might also find it helpful (or not, it's entirely up to you):

If I'm not mistaken, the issue at hand is : will Bitcoin be a good store of value in a monetary crisis? I argue for NO.

First let me just say that anything can be a temporary store of value. It really depends on the buyers of that something. (cont)


But not anything can hold value & even fewer things hold value in a crisis because of the very nature of the holders of that something(cont)

My observation is that the holders of BTC hold it as a speculation that more people will want to hold it later (cont)

But WHO are the holders?Are these holders mostly producers for which BTC is an asset to be stored away like fine art or rare antiques?(cont)

And what money do these holders deploy in holding BTC? Is it 10-20-30-intergenerational savings, or is it hot, fast money? (cont)

And more to the point: will the holders need that money in a monetary crisis, or will they be content to let it "sleep" through it? (cont)

The point of my argument does not lie in the currency price that BTC can achieve pre-crisis. Like gold, BTC has no valuation metrics (cont)

Which means indeed that PRE-CRISIS it is free to go between 0 and any number depending on the currency buying pressure at that time.(cont)

But IN a monetary crisis, the actions of the holders of BTC DO matter greatly! (cont)

If, as I perceive, because of their nature, the holders will need the BTC money during the crisis, what is to happen to the price? (cont)

A reserve currency crisis is not a localized, storm in a teacup, US only affair. It's global. All assets re-price... (cont)

Perhaps a better question would be: in a monetary crisis in which currency is hard to come by for most people, (cont)

who will have the surpluss to channel into assets?And from that small subset of population, who will choose BTC? In a monetary crisis?(cont)

Because looking at the world as it is, not how I'd like it to be shows me that those with surpluses do NOT choose BTC (cont)

So my point is that the flow of currency INTO BTC will fail to materialize at the very point you need it most to exist! (cont)

The fact that BTC has a limited supply will be dwarved by the lack of demand and the abundance of supply from those exiting. (cont)

One tangent and then I'll end my rant #LOL. You mentioned that gold is just like BTC. (cont)

Yes, it is, in the sense of not having valuation metrics and an arbitrary price once the commodity contract gold market closes. (cont)

But the ESSENTIAL difference comes from the quality and purpose of the holders of both assets. (cont)

BTC is held by fast hot money, gold is held for intergenerational savings by entities that have no need to sell it in a crisis.(cont)

Yes, they are both a "Ponzi" to some extent, but gold has 6000 years credibility that makes it be HELD TIGHT in a crisis. (cont)

BTC on the other hand is just a speculator's toy, regardless of its "cool" crypto features. And crisis kills speculation. (cont)

That's it for my rant. Agree or disagree, at least give it some thought. End Rant.


Aquilus

Dante_Eu said...

@Aquilus:

Here's some pictures to go along with your twitter post:

Show me the money!

Bitcoin Protester Confronts Mt.Gox Executive

That's pre-crisis mind you.

PS Earlier I forget to mention someone standing along with Giants and CBs. Last but not least..."third world nobodies". Those guys and girls are not as easily fooled as first world hot monies.

Mother nature is a biatch. :-)

Franco said...

Update: Treasury TIC data for December 2013 was released today. The downtrend resumed as foreign central banks sold $12 billion of US Treasury bonds and notes, and also sold $5 billion of US long-term agency bonds. 2013 marks the first year since 2000 in which foreign central banks were net sellers of US treasury bonds. The withdrawal of official support to the US dollar system continues...

Victory said...

Franco, yea but what is up with Belgium/BIS stepping up to support the system?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-18/china-sells-second-largest-amount-us-treasurys-december-and-guess-who-comes-rescue

Blake said...

@ Franco -

You neglect to mention, however, that this month had the highest foreign CB Treasury data ever recorded at just under $5.8T, up from $5.57 in December '12. Not exactly withdrawal of official support; in fact, just the opposite.

Unknown said...

Isn't the CB treasury data For. Official not the Grand Total?

Unknown said...

Where is the money coming from that Belgium provided. What I have read is they had a budget deficit and 12billion net trade surplus with the US. There GDP is roughly 480billion and roughly 120 billion net increase in US treasuries purchases YOY. This doesn't make any sense at all? Back door QE?



michael3c2000 said...

JR- Well noted.
Isn't Brussels, Belgium, BIS HQ, Bank of International Settlements Headquarters?.

Lisa said...

BIS headquarters Basel, Switzerland

www.bis.org

Michael dV said...

Brussels is the headquarters of the EU. Could be political money (favors returned?)

michael3c2000 said...

Prospect of Easing Pushing Euro Higher Instead of Lower
http://www.fxstreet.com/analysis/strategic-currency-briefing/2014/02/18/
Excerpt- "But from out of left field comes the idea, expressed in the FT, that the ECB is about to embrace OMT as a form of QE to boost growth and inflation. This is the standard central bank action already followed in Japan, the UK and the US. Analysts fret that QE would undo all the gains in peripheral yields seen since Draghi said “whatever it takes” in summer 2012. Spreads could widen right back out again.
Analysts are going so far as to guess which sovereign bonds would be bought...."

Anand Srivastava said...

My view has been evolving.
I only started to think about BTCs in April last year.

I still think that BTCs will go up a lot, possibly as much as gold will go up.

I agree with Aquilus that BTCs will not be useful for the crisis.

Basically if you are in a deficit region, it will be banned, and it will be tough to find a buyer for your BTCs.

If you are in a surplus region, you would not need it, because the currency will work. Yes there will be a deflation, and jobs will be hard to come by. But if you have money, you should be ok.

So the only people who need it, will not be able to use it during the crisis.

There will be two phases to the crisis, the one before reval, and the one after. It could be that the phase before is very short. If it happens to be substantial, people in surplus regions, will be looking to get out of their investments and banks. They will need to move their money somewhere, it will not be gold as it will not be available. The Govts in these regions will not be stopping people from moving their money in BTCs. It will be the only game in town. It should rise during that time. That period could be very short though. You could have a head start on us with gold, in buying real estate and stocks.

I have a difference of opinion with Aquilus, on long term viability. I think BTCs are here to stay. The Bitcoin Network is very useful, and its use will grow with time.

I think that BTCs might be used by speculators, the way XAUUSD is being used now. The speculators have to speculate, and the hard money speculators (or should I call them hedgers) are going to move there as Gold will no longer be used for that purpose.

Another thing is that I believe that most of the BTCs are held by Miners. The Miners are not into it for the short time. They have been investing into BTCs for a very long time. They are all techies, and did not get into Bitcoin to make a quick buck. They are not speculators. They will not get out of BTCs just because they believe there is a top.

So thinking that BTCs will go away when speculators are gone, is not valid. In fact I think AG there will be more speculators in BTCs than now. But then it will be more or less stable.

I used to think that BTC value needs to be stable to be used for transactions, payments, micro-payments. But that is not true. What you do need is exchanges that are fast and stable. That allow painless conversion of BTCs to local currency. That still has to happen.

For this you need proper legal framework. I would think that will happen in the next few years, and then buying online would be possible via BTCs.

Another point. I have not invested much in BTCs, maybe 1% of my investment in Gold. So I maybe an evangelist, but I am not a speculator. I do own a miner though. Which is not giving much now :-). I have got my money back, but that's it.

If I knew what I know now, I would have hedged with Bitcoins. I have done my saving, and am not as much interested in stacking now. But if I do anything more, it will be in Bitcoins, as a hedge. Its easier to lose gold in the physical world :-). Keeping BTCs safe should be easier for me I think.

Anand Srivastava said...

Dante_Eu:

Thats a good reminder not to keep bitcoins on public servers. You can and should keep bitcoins in your own (multiple) wallets at your own PC, and make backups.

You don't keep your gold with your friendly neighborhood Gold Storage facility right :-). You shouldn't even keep it in one place in your home.

MatrixSentry said...

I don't think cypto-currency will be with us post-transition. The reason and logic is straight forward and elegant. The very reason for Bitcoin's rise will be its downfall. The believers want to distance themselves from fiat currencies in order to protect themselves from debasement. The specs wants to front run that movement. Others want anonymity from government. The believers believe in the long term credibility and sustainability of Bitcoin as something that will either supplant fiat or will co-exist with it, as an alternative to fiat. The specs want a play thing in order to "stick it to someone" in an effort to grow wealth. The law breakers want to break the law and not get caught.

I think the focal point we often talk about regarding a wealth reserve also applies to money. Money needs a focal point as well. Post-transition, the wealth reserve focal point will be gold. The money focal point will remain what it is today, and what it's been for a very long time, fiat. The reason will be that fiat will once again do what it does best, it will be a unit of exchange and unit of account. It will not be seen as a wealth reserve and will not be burdened with that task. There will not be the deep seated skepticism and out pessimism regarding the ability of fiat to maintain value over the long haul. It will be a given that fiat cannot hope to challenge gold in this application.

The reason we now look for alternatives to fiat is because we see it as a failure. Fiat could not be easier than it is today as a unit of account and unit of exchange. When I get paid, my money is digitally credited to my checking account. I rarely use cash and simply swipe a plastic card whenever I want to spend. When I want to borrow, I swipe a card when not in a wifi environment. When I am online, a few keystrokes later and my credit is on the way. When I want to pay debt, a few keystrokes and my money is on the way to my payee. Super simple, and best of all established and widely assimilated (focal point) in society.

There are some who want total anonymity from government oversight and see Bitcoin as a way to accomplish that. The government will never allow that because it would allow people to avoid the taxman. That ain't going to ever happen, nor would we ever want it to happen. We need government and government cannot produce on its own. We need to fund government.

Government will be a shadow of its prior self when its money is redefined post-transition. This will happen by necessity and will not be a choice that government makes. Wealth will no longer be attacked to the degree it is today by necessity.

Those running from fiat as a wealth reserve will find gold to best suited for that function because it has been the focal point for a very long time and because it can physically possessed. Those speculating will find something with volatility to invest in. Crypto-currency should never be volatile if it hopes to be a good form of money. Those trying to avoid the taxman or to use money in illegal pursuits will do what they do today, they will either use cash or utilize some workaround (like Bitcoin). Government will be on the watch for these people and will seek to forcefully intrude upon them and their activities. Those wanting to spend, borrow, and lend will find fiat and fiat denominated credit to be quite convenient and widely accepted in society (focal point).

Bitcoin is neat idea this side of Freegold. It is redundant at best on the other side. If it ever comes to being as money, it will be state sanctioned.

Franco said...

Blake:

I think your numbers refer to official+private foreign ownership of treasuries. I'm just talking about official (central banks), which provide what our host calls "structural" support. Also, keep in mind that the withdrawal of support doesn't mean that everybody dumps every last bond they have. Any reduction in the rate of accumulation is a step in the withdrawal process. For example, if you look at "official+private" foreign ownership of treasuries, this is what you see in the past few years:

2008: +315 (billion)
2009: +538
2010: +704
2011: +433
2012: +416
2013: +53

So, yes, in 2013 foreigners (CBs plus private) were net buyers, but look at the amount of bonds that Uncle Sugar was used to not having to deal with, and how it was reduced to a trickle in 2013. Ergo, QE3. Unless this trend reverses and accumulation by foreigners picks up substantially, I'm gonna have to stick to the view that the Fed will not reduce QE any more.

Anonymous said...

I’d like to blend three concepts together and into what the next monetary system ecosystem could be like, or even what it needs to be like in order to endure past one generation.

The first concept is described by Matrix Security above in that fiat and its electronic equlavents are a superior medium of exchange in the modern age while gold is the premiere SoV. Fiat also operates as the primary unit of account for consumables while gold is a primary unit of account for all other timeless though lesser SoV. Basically the world of immediate needs meets the world of the timeless value at the golden nexus; freegold 101.

The second concept is that if the money supply fails to keep pace with the population and productivity growth rates we get a self-reinforcing depression, just as problematic to a stable monetary system as its polar opposite. Basically in a self reinforcing monetary depression those with money in either fiat or golden form benefit by sitting tight on that money in the near certain anticipation that it will purchase more stuff in the future which only increases the behavior. Those without money gradually become the slaves of those with money. The pressure builds until the easy the money camp comes to burn and pillage the hard money camp; i.e. French revolution. A new monetary cycle after much destruction and bloodshed is reborn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIjUgjndKFo&list=PLRruihFm5Xp_df_NUZ_0Cfrd1vG52DwqS&feature=c4-overview-vl

Now on the fiat end of the monetary spectrum the lack of currency is solved easily enough, but it’s not so easily solved on the gold end due to the limited amount of gold remaining (gold’s future growth rate). I think the next video below makes a good case as to why a monetary system needs to be in ‘balance’ with the economy it facilitates; not too hot or too cold. Now because gold will act as a refuge for the savers it will help stabilize the fiat system but what will stabilize gold? In short what if the gold mining rate can’t keep up with the expansion of lesser SoV it will act as a primary focal point for? The answer could be contained in this next video; third concept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaV8xjjBg58&feature=c4-overview&list=UU6WVWDoJOKsHR_fKM30a8lA

By increasing the investment and/or mining rate of silver and/or lower GSR ratios over time, we could effective produce a blended (Gold/Silver) SoV focal point growth rate that could closely match whatever the growth of lesser SoV happens to be thus preventing a deflationary feedback loop of a low growth rate gold only SoV monetary system. If ‘investment’ silver comes onto the market too fast then the GSR would just increase, too slow then it declines. Either way the blended SoV value of Gold and Silver will always be in equilibrium with the cumulative value of lesser SoV. This stable SoV system then acts to stabilize the MoE fiat system.

In some ways it reminds me of how the Moon has kept the Earth’s tilt stable over billions of years. Perhaps this is the deeper reason of why gold and silver have been partners throughout monetary history? They are both different and yet complementary.

Now if this theory is correct, it won’t change gold become the focal point post petro-dollar collapse, but silver’s importance as key stabilizing partner to gold will grow increasingly apparent over a generation and will be visible in a steadily decreasing GSR ratio and a growing percentage of the blend SoV value pool going to silver. How rapidly this occurs will be driven by the rate of accumulation of lesser SoV.

Motley Fool said...

How quaint.

A solution to a non-problem born of misunderstanding, that involves government force to artificially change market preference to attempt delay in growth-rate of gold price, by substituting silver, ignoring that this 'solution' means nothing in the long run, as 'solving' for a shortage of one element by adding another with also limited stocks is no 'solution' at all.



Blake said...

Lately, it seems more likely that the "gold" bull run will resume as the general price level of commodities (real things) starts to accelerate.

Anand Srivastava said...

MatrixSentry:
You ought to read this article and understand what it says.
Bitcoin seems to be about Coins. But there is more to Bitcoin than just the Coins part of it. Coins are just one application of Bitcoin network. It is not the only one.

It is easy to dismiss something when you don't know anything about it. Same as all the Goldbugs dismissing FreeGold.

http://blog.pmarca.com/2014/01/22/why-bitcoin-matters/

Woland said...

some day I will buy a bit coin……..

it will be the day the oil states accept if for payment,
and when Indians accumulate them for their daughters'
wedding day ceremony

until then, I will just watch…….

Anand Srivastava said...

Woland:
Someday you may use it without ever buying it.

Tommy2Tone said...

Haha...perfect MF. Exactly right on.

Spaul when are you going to read this blog? Oh, wait, you aren't here for that, are you?

You and Athorn do the same thing as Sam said the other day:

"You certainly are a dangerous detractor to the casual reader. You're careful to always sound reasonable and level headed while simultaneously misinterpreting freegold in the most subtle of ways. It would be a lot of work to be as close as you are but wrong every time so I assume you do it on purpose"

You ain't foolin those who have read but your attempts to derail the quiet lurkers and new ones to the trail are annoying.

Anonymous said...

All the technological aspects of bitcoin are irrelevant to its valuation because the technology can be duplicated. Maybe the technology will be replicated in a currency people actually use in the future?

Bitcoin itself though is just an anarcho-geek-libertard fantasy. I will enjoy watching it crumble and burn.

Michael dV said...

Bitcoin seems to attract enthusiasts. Gold attracts those who really don't have much to say about it or don't wish to say much about it. rather than a quiet 'time will tell' attitude we hear a rousing call to action from the bitcoin crowd.
I understand that the mechanism by which BC works is interesting and may lead to further products in the area of encrypted information. As far as storing wealth in bitcoin however I too will wait. I'll probably wait for Woland to start cheering.

Michael Martin said...

Just wanted to chime in and thank those that answered my "soak up" question post a few days ago. Thanks!
Was away from the computer for the past few days so I was only able to check the comments section again just now.

Michael Martin said...

I've had my fill of people predicting the possible currency values of gold post-freegold reval and predicting a hard-date or time-frame of when the freegold reval would occur so I'm thinking about other things.

In particular, would the pedestrian you meet on the street "get freegold" when freegold arrives? Or would it seem to be just another stock or commodity that shoots up in price but would not affect his day-to-day life?

"Oh, AAPL/Bitcoin just shot up in terms of USD." Then he just goes about his day.

I imagined that it might be harder to convince the regular person of saving in gold post-freegold because of the higher currency price of gold. Not unlike most people not buying AAPL or Bitcoin after it has shot up in price.
(Well, there are those that BTFATH. But I haven't met one of those on the streets or among my circle of friends.)

I imaging that most would still not understand SOV and MOE even after freegold reval and will continue to save in currency (or stocks or houses or baseball cards, etc).

Maybe only after a few years/decades of linear increases of currency price of gold will the pedestrian start to catch on? But then again, even with the "regular" (year-over-year) price increases of current USD price of gold during this pre-freegold period, most still have not converted their currency into gold.

Dante_Eu said...

Anand, you mean offline cold storage just like J. Turks new service? :-)

This is the picture in my head in unlikely event of a currency crisis:

I am aware one can print BC on a piece of paper (a paper wallet, no joke here) . So, you show your piece of paper or paper wallet to whoever is on the other side of the trade (he or she who has the thing you want or need).

And it looks something like this

Mind you, paper is not the most popular word right now, after all we are talking fiat paper currency crisis. So you think for yourself, wait a minute, I know, I will store my BCs on USB memory stick!

And it looks something like this

Now compare those 2 cases with showing off some yellow rocks:

Something like this

In what case do you get the thing you desire? Forget currency crisis, I encourage you to do the test today and see what happens.

RevolutionOfNations said...

I believe Another wrote his words to those who would outlive him. It seems, he felt he would not be around to capitalize from the knowledge himself, so he gave his knowledge back to humanity to use as humanity sees fit.

RevolutionOfNations said...

I really don't understand how someone who buys Bitcoin end up on this blog. It's been a 5000+ year struggle and there are even now still people coming up with "Bitcoin", after all those years, did we learn nothing at all?

RevolutionOfNations said...

Another crypto-currency is the "Kerry Flip Flops", or the KFF coins. These are mined from the flip flops of president candidate John Kerry. Of course we realize most of his flip-flops may have already been mined(by undisclosed source), but he's still around, and Flip-Flopping all the time!!
The one who catches him with a new flip-flop gets a reward of 10 KFFs, right there, in your own wallet! Imagine if all the dollars in the world where converted to KFFs... You know KFFs are limited, because there are only so many flip-flops John Kerry can do in his lifetime, before mother nature puts an end to it.. It's a limited resource, encrypted and finite. All you ever wanted in a currency.. Buy them now before they run out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Woland said...

Hi Michael Martin;

I use and rely on thousands of things I don't understand
every day. As some here know, this dang computer is
just one of them. I do know how to type, (if you call the
index finger method typing) but as to how it gets from
my house to you, I'm lost. People will observe what seems
to work for others over time, and imitate it. No convincing
needed. Take a look at Danny Kahnemann's "Thinking, fast
and slow" some day if you have the time, to see how
people rely on "heuristics" in decision making. It's a bit of
an eye opener. Cheers, {;<)>>

Michael Martin said...

@Woland

I actually bought the book from Amazon last month on a recommendation from another site. Will probably have a go at it tonight now that you mentioned it.

Woland said...

our old friend JR has a very nice tweet up today. he's at:
@JacquesRueffFan Too bad he doesn't come around
much anymore, but at least we know where to find him.
( & THX 4 D RT, YKW )

Anonymous said...

As usual MF & JoJo you missed my point entirely. It’s like yelling squirrel in front of dog, the subsequent reaction of which is both entirely predictable and comical at the same time.

The good news, even for the blog zealots, is this monetary theory won’t affect the immediate or even mid-term role for gold post petro-dollar as correctly postulated by FOFOA. I’m talking long term and specifically attempting to address past problems with hard monetary systems, especially ones that can’t grow as fast as their economies.

A key point is there is no need for governments to force a GSR. First of all it won’t work and second of all it’s actually counterproductive to the ability of silver to stabilize the value of gold relative to other lesser non-monetary like SoV. Only the free market can determine if gold is becoming too hard or flowing too little. The observed decrease in the GSR ratio when gold grows significantly in relative value to other SoV may in fact be evidence of this theory in action. The same is true on downside in which gold begins to flow with a corresponding increase in the GSR. It’s all part of the same market equilibrium mechanism. In short, the freegold flow rate will be highly correlated to the GSR.

Anyway, under this monetary theory, in a freegold world, the GSR will act as pressure relief valve on the SoV function of the monetary system, the focal point of which remains gold. Now if the growth rate of lesser SoV is lower than the growth rate of gold, then the GSR ratio will increase, the reverse will also be true.

Motley Fool said...

"I’m talking long term and specifically attempting to address past problems with hard monetary systems, especially ones that can’t grow as fast as their economies."

Uhuh. Hard at work solving non-problems.

Just in case it is unclear...fg is not similar to a hard money system of the past. There is No Need for gold volume to grow as fast as underlying economy, and since peak gold will be fact at some point or another, perhaps already in the past, at some point it will be simply impossible regardless.

Don't know why I am wasting my breath.

Aaron said...

Spaul, that is some of the best bullshit I've read all day. How long did it take you to build that strawman? As Sam pointed out, If you want to challenge the foundations of freegold...feel free to start lobbing boulders at the correct wall.

Motley Fool said...

spaul

If I can share some advice, it would be this : don't try to adapt ideas based on preconceived preferences.

Sure, I know, you like silver, but don't let this trip you up all the time.

You seem to be desperate to change reality just so as not to let go of your predisposition.

“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

-Tolstoy

Indenture said...

"Thinking, fast
and slow" Danny Kahnemann
.pdf

Indenture said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Indenture said...

"the ability of silver to stabilize the value of gold"
"Focal Point: Gold

Nickelsaver said...

You can lead a horse to water, but an ass won't follow.

MatrixSentry said...

Wisdom can be inherited if one will only allow it. Anything Woland has read and recommends is a step in the right direction. I cherish the gift he gave me and I've read it three times now. Will be reading it again.

M said...

@ Blake

Yep. All commodities have a bid. Both jr miners and oil companies are seeing money come in. But that is the whole problem. None of these commodity markets are real markets. They are betting parlous for the price movement of these commodities. This way, fed balance sheet expansion doesn't seem to make it down to the price of the raw product. It just sloshes around in the betting parlous in the form of derivatives.

Right now feels like 2007 all over again. Guys like Peter Schiff see the rotation into commodities and think its classic price inflation. When really, it is a sentiment change in the betting parlors.


Anand Srivastava said...

Poopyjim:

Have you heard of the concept of Prime Mover advantage? The first thing to get popular has to be just good enough. Another thing will only be able to replace the incumbent by being substantially better. And even that may not be good enough if the incumbent is really good enough.

Anand Srivastava said...

Jonas: Just like I put in effort to understand Freegold, I have been investing time understanding Bitcoin. Yeah should have done it a year back :-).

Sam said...

@Matrix

Did Woland recommend this blog to you or was it something else.

@anand

I still don't know how Facebook was much different than MySpace

Anonymous said...

Anand,
A question about Bitcoin if I may. I did not invest much time researching it so maybe I suffer from grave misconceptions. Anyway here it goes:

There is a hard limit on the amount of bitcoins that can be created and the closer we get to that limit the harder it is to mine them, meaning that after some point, in order for the miners to remain profitable, the price must be always going up (or not go down for a significant amount of time) to compensate for the less amount of bitcoins coming in.

I can clearly see why bitcoins are a great MOE, if the transaction can be done quickly enough so that you don't have to hold them for a long time. If I understand it correctly the time it takes for a transaction to be validated depends on how much computational power the miners are putting in.

Now, the way I see it, to assume that the price of bitcoins will never go down for a significant amount of time is a bit of a stretch. So will not this lead to the following feedback loop:

1- Price does not go up forever
2- Miners start going out of business and since they don't have any more bitcoins coming in it is fair to assumer they will start draining their stash, putting more downward pressure on the price.
3- Less miners leads to less computational power available to validate transactions, leading to longer waiting times per transaction, decreasing its utility as a MOE, less businesses will accept it, therefore putting further downward pressure on the price.
4- Go back to 1.

What am I missing here? Thanks! :)

Edwardo said...

Bitcoin lacks a key feature of highly functional MOEs; it can not be arbitraged. More accurately, those who would otherwise engage in effortless arbitrage between the various exchanges don't even attempt it because they rightly doubt the reliance of payments. Bitcoin's proponents, many of whom appear to me to be more than a little starstruck, conveniently ignore this.

Blake wrote:

Lately, it seems more likely that the "gold" bull run will resume as the general price level of commodities (real things) starts to accelerate.

Seems is the operative word here. If commodities, particularly energy, which is the chief input to gold mining, continue to elevate, that will not be remotely bullish paper gold.

In the meantime, the GLD inventory has barely budged off its multi-year lows which is just one sign that nothing has changed since its inventory collapse began in earnest over a year ago.

Woland said...

Hi Matrix;

You're the second person ( on the blog ) who has expressed
his enjoyment of M & M. That means a lot to me. Thanks!

DP said...

M&Ms — mmmmmm…

I prefer R&R, but put me down for a bag?

Tommy2Tone said...

Spaul- The least you could do is include the proper video reference, but nooooo Spaul can't do that or read the blog:(

KnallGold said...

Confirmed: Greece posts first annual account surplus since 1948 ! Despite a strong currency...

http://zeenews.india.com/business/news/international/greece-posts-first-annual-account-surplus-since-1948_94782.html

Biju said...

Ignoring the intrinsic properties of Bitcoin vs Gold,

I think FOFOA should compare action of Bitcoin in Mt Gox to possible future action of paper Gold in paper markets and make a study comparison. We are seeing a precipitous decline in Mt Gox, where folks are neither able to convert their bitcoin to USD or even withdraw bitcoin.

Woland said...

hmmm…..
thinking of DP, getting his R&R ( at Gleneagles, no less!! )
got me thinking of Scotland….and that got me thinking about
sheep……Baa, baa, baa……..and that got me thinking about
The McGurk Effect - "Hearing Lips and Seeing Voices"

so, if you've nothing better to do, hop on over to YouTube,
and punch in The McGurk Effect…you may learn something
new about yourself. {;<)>>

Anonymous said...

Indenture said...
"the ability of silver to stabilize the value of gold"
"Focal Point: Gold

“For this reason, the money used as a store of value must be something completely separate and different from the medium of exchange. It must be so, so that the store of value unit can expand in value while the medium of exchange unit expands in quantity and/or velocity. You may be starting to encounter my thrust. Expand… and expand. Unrestricted by artificial constraints.” - FOFOA

Yes, I understand this, but there is a deeper problem with the whole “expanded value” concept. A monetary system growing at 1% and an economy growing at 4% results in deflation just as certainly as the opposite is inflationary. Further this fact is just as true for the SoV focal point (focused on wealth) as it is for the MoE focal point (focused on consumables). The primary difference is that a fiat MoE can adjust its hardness or softness on demand. This is not true for a SoV that is limited by a very real physical constraint, even as the pool of lesser SoV grows faster around it. Gold’s greatest attribute is also simeltanosly its greatest problem. Gold can indeed become too hard under some scenarios, which in turn has ‘always’ resulted in the collapse of the monetary system by social forces if taken too far, just as surely as a MoE becoming too easy will collapse the system from that direction as well.

Saying that the value of gold can float only solves the MoE vs SoV problem. An important problem and good solution for sure, but not the only one that needs to be solved for a truly stable monetary system. Hence why I think bi-metallic SoV system has an inherent flexibility that gold only system can never attain. Silver basically acts a shock absorber via the GSR that adjusts the level of hardness/softness of the blended SoV pool.

Now if the growth rate of human civilization is lower than the gold growth rate this is a non-issue; silver will remain largely a commodity. Silver as money only comes increasingly into play the higher the human civilization growth rate is above than gold mining rate. The greater the disparity the more silver starts to act as money along the side of the gold.

This in my mind could be the primary force behind the GSR fluctuations and hoarding/dishoarding cycles of silver in general. The more gold becomes the SoV focal point the harder it gets which then naturally draws silver in like proportion into the SoV mix in order to keep the blend SoV flowing at a steady rate demanded by the efficient exchange with the MoE and among lesser SoV. This fundamental force can be seen in real time in the form of higher accumulation rates, prices and lower GSR. It is also seen at work in the down stroke as well when gold falls from being the SoV focal point.

I suspect this is also the force behind why I have 5x the gold per dollar of JoJo and MF. Which will become 10x if we get another GSR move from 60 to 30 before freegold. So JoJo and MF your zealot like attitude has a price to be paid, a price paid in physical gold, physical gold that you’ll never own. So say what you want, I’d rather have the gold than whatever praise I could possibly receive if I just closed my mind and went about reciting the freegold purist dogma as we worship and blow smoke at the altar.

Evolutionary forces, in all things, are alive and well.

Motley Fool said...

"A monetary system growing at 1% and an economy growing at 4% results in deflation just as certainly as the opposite is inflationary."

This is 'incorrect'. But you would know this if you actually bothered reading the blog. It depends on what type of 'monetary system' it is. In the current one, sure, in a gold standard sure. In fg you have to delineate. If the economy is expanding at 4% and currency at a lesser pace, then sure. But the impact on the price of gold change less irrelevant, as gold is divorced from the productive economy ito its own utility.

The last stated another way means that changes in the price of gold will not impact the productive economy ie. the bread you eat (in almost any scenario and in all sustainable scenario's- though there may be short term effects due to moves in productive capital).

TF

Motley Fool said...

edit : is less relevant
or : is more or less irrelevant

Ps. Dogma aside, you are confusing investment with saving. Why aren't you harping about the BGR ( bitcoin gold ratio)? You could have had a lot more gold by now if you had made the speculative bet of gold and been able to buy gold afterwards since the system hasn't collapsed yet.

Motley Fool said...

edit : 1st gold -> btc

Pps. There seems to be some serious issues with hindsight.

Hindsight being 20-20 it is easy to criticize investment capital allocation decisions made in the past. Just as it is easy to criticize Another for nor predicting 9/11( lmao wtf).

But one has to realize that that criticism doesn't have much merit, since it is based on information gained after the fact.

Edwardo said...

Regarding the McGurk effect, what can one say except fa out.

Unknown said...

Bitcoin .... My thoughts, which are most profound only to me (LOL) !!!

Bitcoin - effortlessly transfer and exchange, crossing borders, etc. Wait a minute !!! Isn't this what we call EFT (Electronic Fund Transfer)? We can even change USD to GBP to EUR or JPY at the stroke of a finger ... Paypal anyone? We can write checks against our bank accounts, use ATMs, use Debit Cards, etc.... Hmmm.

Bitcoin - Not the COIN Part. The non-coin part is called THE CON. For example: Total Bitcoins = 100 million coins. Original developers already mined/own 50 million BCs. New miners need to buy Mining Equipment (Hardware/Software) from BC Developers .... Hahaha .... Got your hard cash, already.

Original BC value = $0. Then someone start trading or exchanging them for $1. Let's just say Owner1 has 1 million BC and sells to Buyer2 for $1/BC, a quantity of 1,000 BC. The BCs are now priced at $1/BC. There is $1,000 at the BC Bank. Owner1 buys back the 1,000 BCs at $10 and $10,000 is now added to The BC Bank. Buyer2 cashes out $10,000 while Owner1 deposits $10,000 to buy.

Owner5 who has 20 million BCs sees the 10x price increase, and decides to cash out 1 million of his BCs. He goes to the BC Exchanges and does so.

Squeal, Crunch, Fizzz, Puffs, Shit !!! Technical problems !!! Mt. Gox has been DDSO'ed, or Hacked, or Blah/Blah/Blah. The question is - Where is the bank account containing the $10 million to fund the cashing out by Owner5 of 1 million BCs ? The BC Bank Account has only $1,000. Hmmmm, makes one think of SCAM/ScumBugs who started the BC exchange?

Bitcoin, anyone? Who are the parties who stand behind Bitcoin? Do you know? Does anyone know? Who is SATOSHI ? Sounds like ZATOICHI, The Japanese Blind Swordsman in the movies !!! A fcitional character !

Franco said...

Joe Vanderbilt:

BTC miners make money in two ways: 1) by being awarded new BTC in exchange for lending their computational power, and 2) when you send BTC to somebody, you can include a voluntary extra payment that goes to the miner and gets you farther up in the line to get your transaction confirmed faster. I suspect that when there are no more BTC to mine, these fees will become sort of obligatory, or else who would keep their computer running for no reward?

Biju said...

One info about these bitcoin exchanges sound untrustworthy. I saw this from a blogger.

Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, and such like places where the now effectively frozen bitcoin exchanges operate from should have been a big signal for SCAM ALERT! Even the big exchange at Tokyo remains frozen as hackers, crackers, and cyber attackers dictate the real value (if any) of the craptocurrency.

Bitcoin exchanges from WIKI:
=====================

Bitstamp:

Bitstamp's headquarters are in London, England whereas the bank they use to process deposits and withdrawals is Slovenian

BTC-E:
=====
According to CoinDesk, the service is based in Bulgaria.
one of the banks it uses is located in the Czech Republic.
According to CoinDesk, its founders, who have said their first names are Aleksey and Alexander, are Russian, but not Russian citizens

Mt Gox:
======
Location : Shibuya, Tokyo, Japan

Anonymous said...

Motley Fool said...

“as gold is divorced from the productive economy.”

Gold is not ‘divorced’ from the productive economy it’s the focal point. In simple terms a house that may cost 10 oz of gold today will cost only 5 oz a decade later if there is mismatch in the growth rate of gold to the overall economy x population. Thus without some softening force those with gold will tend to hold on to that the gold even tighter in order to be paid in the form of more stuff later, further reinforcing the feedback loop. This is deflationary. In a bi-metallic system if gold holders attempt this silver comes increasingly into the mix to relieve the pressure.

It does this because people like me will in fact swap gold for silver and silver for gold at what we see as opportunistic GSR ratios. Thus silver prevents gold from become too hard even as it remains the focal point +90% of the SoV value pool, oz x price. Think of it as control rods in nuclear reactor that help to keep gold flowing.

Nickelsaver said...

Hey SpaulSY,

I think bi-metallic SoV system has an inherent flexibility that gold only system can never attain. Silver basically acts a shock absorber via the GSR that adjusts the level of hardness/softness of the blended SoV pool.

Absolutely brilliant! You are a genuis!!

Let's put your plan into action shall we?

First we'll notify all of the Central banks of the plan, give them plenty of time to acquire enough silver to get the job done. Check

Then we'll notify all of the silver industrial users that they will soon need to find another material to use, or reconfigure their cost basis using higher priced silver. Check

Then we should do something really fun. We should start posting to a metals forum using anonymous pseudonyms. You can be "Needless" and I will be "FUN" Friend uv Needless. That we can secretly get the news out to all of the giants so they can follow in our footsteps.

Sound good?

Alright.

Sam said...

Post revaluation gold will sit outside the monetary system as a wealth asset. It couldn't cause inflation/deflation any more than a fine piece of art could today.

MatrixSentry said...

Sam,

I found the blog completely by accident. When I arrived I quickly realized that it wasn't what I was looking for. However, curiosity go the best of me and I read a few of the posts. For whatever reason I kept reading. Then I decided to save the blog link in order to check back periodically. This was early 2009. I was a lurker for quite some time until the whole thing clicked. I was a slow learner.

I met Woland in person, along with some others you would recognize from the blog. Woland as well as the others are the kind of people you always want to know. Wise, interesting, charming, engaged, and very intelligent.

Credibility is a word used frequently on this blog. He has it.

Indenture said...

Mt Gox : $98
Bitstamp $537

M said...

@ KnallGold

Thanks for the link..

The account surplus of 1.2 billion euros for 2013 compared to a 4.6 billion euro deficit in 2012 was attributed to the reduction of the trade deficit, in addition to an increase in the services balance from revenues from the tourism industry, according to a Bank of Greece (BoG) report released Wednesday.

More evidence to stack against that bullshit Keynesian tenet "devalue your currency and the tourists will come " and the factories will fall out of the sky"

Yellen, take this and smoke it,

Motley Fool said...

spaul

"In simple terms a house that may cost 10 oz of gold today will cost only 5 oz a decade later if there is mismatch in the growth rate of gold to the overall economy x population. Thus without some softening force those with gold will tend to hold on to that the gold even tighter in order to be paid in the form of more stuff later, further reinforcing the feedback loop."

Ignoring for a moment that you are talking roughly 15% average real growth rate for the world here; there is a softening force....international flow of gold. As I said in my earlier comment, there is no sustainable scenario where deflation in gold to the point where it affects capital allocation the productive economy can result.

Just bloody well think. In your scenario above what would happen to the capital allocation towards gold versus the productive economy. How would that affect real growth rates?

...and as the marginal possibility of sustaining that rate of gold price increase decreases what happens to capital allocation then, and real growth rates, and the price of gold.

TF

Motley Fool said...

Ps. The GSR is bullshit. It means nothing and has no predictive power or effect. In simple terms because the function of the underlying items are dissimilar there is no correlation ( less true today than it will be in future).

Anand Srivastava said...

Let me give a small primer on Bitcoin.

There will be 21Million BTCs generated by the Bitcoin Network in forever. Almost all will be generated by 2020. After that it will be fractions of BTC.

Currently the network generates 25*6*24 = 3600 BTCs per day on an average. This halves every 4 years. At 600$ it is equivalent to 2,160,000$.

Each transaction entails a transaction cost of 0.1% for the median transaction. Current trading volume is around 50M$/day (in Nov it was 400M). This would be an additional income of around 50,000$ for the miners.

In 2016 the Bitcoin production will halve. The income of miners will reduce. Currently the network capacity is 25Peta Hashes. Faster and faster machines are being made to mine.

You don't really need the Network capacity to be very high. It just needs to be high enough to prevent hostile takeovers. At 25 PetaHash I believe it is fast enough.

The Mining capacity will adjust itself to the income from bitcoins and transactions.

The fact that the volume of bitcoins will keep on reducing after 2020 is not a bad thing. Its a feature. With bitcoins being lost by people, there will be less and less bitcoins in the market keeping the price going up indefinitely. Same logic as Gold's price going up. This would mean that there will always be incentive for Exchanges to hold bitcoins. Also they can and will add transaction fees.

About Storage.
Never rely on third parties to store your bitcoins, just like you would not trust third parties to store your gold. Gold still has some legal framework behind it so storing with third parties can be made safer. Bitcoin has none. So you are completely at the mercy of the third party. But just like gold you can and should store it with you. Just like Gold you can store Bitcoin at a third party who doesn't know that you are storing the Bitcoin/Gold with them. Bank Lockers and Public storage devices like Gmail Google docs etc. With personal storage the biggest problem is loosing the private key.

The Bitcoin Network

The BTC is only one application of the Bitcoin Network. The Bitcoin Network provides a Journal that anybody can look at and determine whether a transaction has taken place.

To be reasonably sure that a transaction will succeed, a number of miners should use that transaction in their mining process. These are called confirmations. A transaction with 6 confirmations is considered highly improbable to not succeed. But its really about what's the cost of the transaction if it doesn't go through.

To make an entry (a transaction) in the journal you must own at least the smallest allowed fraction of a BTC (currently at 340satoshis). Now you can add a free form string to the transaction also.

Lets say you want to buy a house. So you will create a deed. Currently you need to store the deed at some authority, to make sure that nobody spoofs the deed. As you can always check with the authority if the deed is the same as stored with them. This is a third party. With Bitcoin Network you can do the same without needing a third party. You create a digital document sign it with both the buyer and seller's wallet's private keys, then make a transaction with the seller which involves both the wallets. And in the transaction note that this transaction was done for selling the house. Also store the SHA256 checksum in the transaction. The above steps will allow anybody to determine if the house was sold to persons, and the document is really the one that has taken place. You can also search the transaction based on the house name and address stored in the transaction.

The above is just an application of Bitcoin Network. Bitcoin Network will make it easy to confirm things without needing third parties.

When you guys are thinking of a replacement of BTC, you are thinking of just that. Bitcoin Network is an enabler like Internet for secure transactions.

Anand Srivastava said...

A very nice article on Bitcoin Security. Yeah very technical. Hopefully we will have hardware devices for bitcoin transactions soon. One is on the way.

http://media01.bitcoinarmory.com/InsideBitcoins_Present.pdf

ein anderer said...

@anand srivastava:
Very useful »tip«.
Every second word calls »insecure«, »threat« and «risk«.
Even to think of Bitcoin is a symptom of ignorance and stupidity.
Good luck, you gamblers!

ein anderer said...

… not to forget »danger«.
How absurd …

Anand Srivastava said...

Ein Anderer:

Do you use Credit Card?

Do you know it is extremely insecure?

The only reason it works, is that Credit Card companies take the losses resulting due to the credit card scams.

They then pass the losses to the users in the form of high fees.

The person who got scammed also pays by losing a good credit history.

Still we use that system right :-).

Remember the PPT said that you do not want to put substantial money in bitcoin unless you knew the risks and knew how to avoid them.

For small investors its not a problem (the incentive for crackers is not enough). But if you keep the bitcoin with an online provider, the risk is much much more, because the online provider has a lot of coins, making him a bigger target for cracking.

Anand Srivastava said...

Also I didn't say it is for non-technical people at the moment :-).

Motley Fool said...

anand

Fwiw. I do see that the idea of crypto-currencies may have some use in the future. Bitcoin itself is flawed from fundamental monetary principles and was designed by people with understanding and ideological issues. Given their beliefs it is well designed.

I think a redesigned system based on the concept may be of use post freegold.

TF

Ps. Also fwiw I understand the technicals. :P

Motley Fool said...

I always read TTMYGH and I am rarely disappointed. :)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-20/things-make-you-go-hmmm-anti-gold-idiots

tEON said...

@anand srivastava

With bitcoins being lost by people, there will be less and less bitcoins in the market keeping the price going up indefinitely.

I'm only half following this BTC discussion - so excuse my ignorance, but two questions:

1) Did you really mean to say the above? and
2) Do you really believe what you have said (above).

A far bigger factor in why it will go up or down is people believing, or disbelieving, in it as a SoV. No? You cannot guarantee this.... at all. Your statement would scare me if I had invested in BTCs.

If I understand it correctly, it is mined by computational power - ie. solving math problems. Not the type of math problems that will help build a Space Station or determine the weather next week in Peru. Irrelevant math problems. BTC holds no intrinsic value. Any value it has is lost in its creation. It can never be retrieved. Correct?

I don't see how it increases in value because it may be more rare (because people lose their BTCs ?!?! - would you say then that BTCs are 'consumed'? - constantly lost, never to be regained?). Rarity only might equate to value when it has, some, intrinsic worth.

BTC again boils down to enough people believing in it - to make it fly (not dissimilar to a Ponzi scheme). You might compare this to Gold - excepting Gold has both a long history and Gold looks good around a woman's neck. BTC has neither.

Why BTC? (I understood your point about 'prime mover' - first out of the gate) but that is not a good enough reason to believe in it... yet, IMO. It's volatility is a reason to flee from it. Maybe another crypto-currency will come along, in the future, that be show more stability. BTC's brief history is fraught with wild swings of $ value - that individuals will not embrace as secure. Ex. Why would any merchant accept BTCs if it continues to swing so dramatically in price? You customers buy from you with $1000 BTCs, and in desperate times, you use them for your own food/shelter at $100 per BTC. What you have then is a bunch of regretful merchants - and that regret is contagious to the point of no new adopters - which - akin to a Ponzi scheme - is what this requires - constant new suckers buying into it because they think it will make them rich.

Much like the Silver crowd - anytime you require the masses to adopt something to increase demand and value - better take a step back and look again, IMO. We don't anticipate FG because the masses will flock to Gold. That is the flawed analysts perspective.

Lastly, I realize it is, supposedly, outside the reach of authority (example it can't be 'capital controlled') - but I wouldn't want to be wagering that this will continue. Some governing entity could be persuaded, in a few minutes, why this is 'unlawful' and it could simply be enforced by publicly arresting (MSM headlines rife) a few prominent BTC'ers for 'terrorism', 'drug laundering', what-ever. It probably won't take a lot of 'fear generation' to get BTC to reach its intrinsic value.

It's a fun concept - especially for the technically curious - but people can be swayed by so many external factors - most totally unpredictable. I, personally, have too many doubts about BTC. I'll watch it on the sidelines wishing the best to all, in this Forum , who own it.

ein anderer said...

tEON:
1++

Woland said...

interesting review of Gerhard Schroeder's new book, "Klare
Worte" (roughly, plain speaking) at:
www.omfif.org/intelligence/the-commentary/2014/february/
former-chancellor-confirms-germans-dominance/

it puts the meme of Germany "better off" outside the euro
in its proper perspective ( the rubbish bin ) {;<)>>

MatrixSentry said...

What type of person are you? What you care about reveals much.

Grant Williams' Things That Make You Go Hmmm... [emphasis and inclusion mine]

"So these anti-gold idiots are just that, idiots, or else they have the memory of a goldfish, because currencies come and currencies go, as sure as night follows day. It is the natural order of things. And as you can see, it's not about trading gold to get rich or getting long gold or buying one by two call spreads or getting fancy, it literally is about protecting yourself in the end. It's not like Williams got rich. He just stayed rich. Everyone else got poor."

"The bull market in gold started for two very distinct reasons and amongst two very diverse groups of people. The first group were those who saw a commodity of intrinsic value that had fallen so completely out of favour that it was trading at or below the cost of production, along with a group of companies producing that commodity whose stocks were so out of favour that they simply had to go higher over time." ...

"These people saw an opportunity to make money by buying something low and selling it high [stick it to the market!] — as they would a stock or a bond or a piece of real estate."

"The second group of people were those who looked at the landscape around them, saw the massive amount of debt that had been created over the previous four decades, and began to fear for the future of fiat currencies in general and the US dollar in particular.

These people didn't so much care about the price performance of gold (though most realized that the balance of probability suggested the path of least resistance was higher), as they cared about protecting a portion of their wealth from confiscation, which might come either through the inflation that was clearly going to be required to dissolve the debts, or through a dramatic loss of confidence in the mighty US dollar.

The price of gold wasn't their chief concern. Not even remotely. In fact, for the second group of people a falling gold price was a good thing because it enabled them to swap more of their dollars for the precious metal."


Phat Repat said...

Watching the discussion on BTC and though not a fan given the wild swings in valuation (rather 'lose' money in a tangible asset), I see a comment such as this from tEON:

"Lastly, I realize it is, supposedly, outside the reach of authority (example it can't be 'capital controlled') - but I wouldn't want to be wagering that this will continue. Some governing entity could be persuaded, in a few minutes, why this is 'unlawful' and it could simply be enforced by publicly arresting (MSM headlines rife) a few prominent BTC'ers for 'terrorism', 'drug laundering', what-ever. It probably won't take a lot of 'fear generation' to get BTC to reach its intrinsic value."

Yeah, well, you could very easily replace BTC with gold in that statement (and some other statements for that matter). I don't believe that will happen, but it certainly could. Nothing surprises me anymore as we look around at the crumbling edifice of society (both here and abroad).

MatrixSentry said...

" When you acquire gold, if your concern is the price you pay for it, then you belong in the first group — the traders — and should calibrate your expectations accordingly. If the gold price jumps from $1,000 to $1,500 and you sell your gold, locking in a nice profit, then you are happy and can either move on to your next investment or wait for a pullback in the price to be able to reload and try to repeat your success.

The danger with this approach is that it's also really rather easy to buy gold at $1,900 and find it languishing some $600 dollars lower a couple of years later. Ask "that guy." You know "that guy," right? We all do. He's the one who, when gold hit $1,900 in August 2011, told you it was definitely going to $2,500 and bought a bunch of it — through the ETF, of course. No point going to all the trouble of buying the metal itself. Ask him. He'll tell you how much gold SUCKS."That guy" has been the one selling to crystallize his loss — or perhaps doubling up and going short to try to recoup his loss because the one-way guaranteed trade is back on, he claims — only this time it's headed in a more southerly direction. He's been the guy calling for gold to go to $1,000 or maybe even back to $600."

"Want to know what the second group of people have been doing as gold has fallen from its 2011 highs?

Accumulating more. Exchanging more of their fiat currency for physical metal.

Not futures contracts. No. Physical metal. And no, not "buying more." Accumulating more. I choose my words very carefully.

This group of people are the investors"
[AKA savers on this blog].

"The point of owning gold is NOT to get rich but to stay rich, and sometimes, simply by staying rich, you can become very wealthy indeed — just as Williams did. Owning gold isn't about the price. Trading it is. Owning gold is all about possession."

End of cut and paste from Grant's excellent article. The rest is worth reading.







MatrixSentry said...


I thought with the latest distraction (Bitcoin) on this blog, we all need to re-focus on what this blog is about. The traders really do not belong here, This blog will not appeal to them in the end and they will resent it. Some cannot handle this and resort to Trollery in order to get even with those that cannot see their point of view. We have seen this over and over again with traders who love mining stocks, who love silver, who love gold as money, and likely we will see with those who love Bitcoin.

We don't care about whether Bitcoin will someday make good money, just as we do not care whether the next iteration of fiat will be superior money. The point being that money will exist and will serve its purpose. It is the wealth reserve that is important to the brainwashed Freegolder. Bitcoin will not be the focal point for wealth reserve. That is the important thing to know for us.

Whether Bitcoin can be good money is really immaterial here. One thing we know, any form of money that attempts to unify the 3 aspects of money, unit of exchange, unit of account, and wealth reserve, will ultimately fail.

So we could care less what form money takes, just as long as it doesn't attempt to be a wealth reserve. We need it to be widely accepted for payment for the things we need to buy in order to live our lives. We need to be able to receive it in exchange for our production. We need to be able borrow it when we can see an opportunity to leverage or future productivity in order to make our lives better today. We need to be able to leverage our current wealth by lending it to others who who wish to leverage their future productivity. These are crucial needs that will be met by money, one way or another and wholly independent of what our money actually is.

Any attempt to identify and embrace a form of money that does all the above and miraculously serves as a wealth reserve will be summarily rejected by anyone who has RTFB and RRTFB. IOWs any brainwashed cult member.

So really, aren't we wasting our time bantering Bitcoin about?

tEON said...

@Phat Repat

Yeah, well, you could very easily replace BTC with gold in that statement

No, you couldn't. How do you transport 1 million dollars in Gold - easily, out of one country and into another? And if you believe Jim Willie, the 'no water bottle' (post 9/11) was more about smuggling diamonds, (not saying I believe him, btw.) That is the potential legality issue. Or let me put it another way - how easy is it to move a 100 million in BTCs to moving 100 million in Gold - from country to country?

Capital controls are residency-based measures such as transaction taxes, other limits, or outright prohibitions that a nation's government can use to regulate flows from capital markets into and out of a country.

The thing you BTC'ers prize as such an advantage (discrete movement) is just another nail in the coffin. The reason they limit your wealth movement - thru customs, TSA etc. - or are fully aware of paper trails like Bank transfer, Swift, Wires etc. is so they can tax you (if necessary.) Do you think they will give up that right? and miss out on the huge cash cow of penalizing wealth movement? Idealism in the extreme.

And certainly I don't have to tell you why they won't do that with Gold (arrest, prosecute, call terrorists) even if you only consider who owns Gold and their huge influence. Someone very intelligently stated on this Blog that FG could be considered a Giant's response to big government.

Practically speaking, BTC is nothing like Gold in that aspect.

MatrixSentry said...

More from Things that Make You Go Hmmm...

"Deep down, though, central bankers know what gold is for and why you hold it. They know."

Now let me ask you this:

If the very people who have the ability to basically create all the paper money they want out of thin air, whenever they need it, are exchanging that paper for gold at a record pace, what conclusions could you draw? Would you think for a second that they are accumulating gold because they think the price is going to go up and they can make a quick profit?

Of course they're not. Do you think they'll sell all their gold when the price reaches $2,000? How about $2,500?
[or $1000, $500, $200?] When Western central bankers rubbish gold as a "barbarous relic" or, as in the case of Ben Bernanke shortly before he started his job at The Brookings Institution left office in January, admit to a complete lack of understanding of it, does it not strike you as strange that, having accumulated significant stockpiles of gold over the years, they aren't in a hurry to swap any of it for paper money (well, with the notable exception perhaps of the United Kingdom, thanks to the antics of Gordon Brown, King of the Idiot Chancellors)?

It shouldn't. Gold is held by Western central banks for exactly the same reason individuals ought to hold it: protection.

Central banks are accumulating gold because it cannot go BANG! like fiat currencies do. Individuals should be doing the same — not being sidetracked by the distractions. It's not about price. The story Jared shared with us demonstrates that beyond any doubt. If you own gold, it will do all the heavy lifting for you when the time comes, just as it did for George Walton Williams.


So do central banks hold silver as a reserve asset? What about mining stocks? How about Bitcoin? Things that make you go hmmm indeed.

C'mon folks, this really doesn't have to be difficult.

Phat Repat said...

@tEON
I never take anything as an absolute; not even FG. As soon as man, and especially govies are involved, you can pretty much be assured this unproductive class will look to steal and limit by whatever means possible. And to prove my point you state:

"Capital controls are residency-based measures such as transaction taxes, other limits, or outright prohibitions that a nation's government can use to regulate flows from capital markets into and out of a country.

The thing you BTC'ers prize as such an advantage (discrete movement) is just another nail in the coffin. The reason they limit your wealth movement - thru customs, TSA etc. - or are fully aware of paper trails like Bank transfer, Swift, Wires etc. is so they can tax you (if necessary.) Do you think they will give up that right? and miss out on the huge cash cow of penalizing wealth movement? Idealism in the extreme."

That alone should make one deeply suspicious of the potential for FG success. It does me and I have planned accordingly. Aside from that, I don't believe that some cartel of giant gold holders necessarily hold all the cards. Things could become quite dark if spun out of control (and that is certainly a possibility).

And I don't know what BTC'er you're talking about; but it sure isn't me.

Edwardo said...

I think those in the CB realm that need to know (about gold) know, but I think, lamentably, there may be a few, here and there, in the upper echelons, perhaps the newly installed chair of the Federal Reserve, who are less knowledgeable on the importance of gold than they ought to be. It won't matter. Those who need to know, but who may be a bit behind, will acquire the requisite education in due course.

Knotty Pine said...

RT- boom-bust

Edwardo said...

Aside from that, I don't believe that some cartel of giant gold holders necessarily hold all the cards.

You've got it backwards, PR, you are focused on the holding of gold as the essential item. It's not. Possessing great hoard of gold is simply the result of a giant's super producer status. It's not that those who own the gold make the rules, it's that those who produce on a great scale unerringly want physical. It can be a tad confusing, but there it is. You may not like all the ins and outs regarding how the following dynamic operates, but in the world we live in, (as opposed to the one we might prefer to live in) when you not only pay the piper, but feed his entire extended family, you not only call the tune but, ultimately you get to pick the instruments, the key in which the tune is played and the venue for the performance.

MatrixSentry said...

I think a more worthy topic of discussion is our old friend GLD and what is happening to its gold inventory. A very compelling argument was made in Who is Draining GLD?, GLD Talk Continued, and VtC's GLD - The Central Bank of the Bullion Banks that gold flow into and out of GLD does not have to be in response to arbitrage, nor is needed or used in such a way as to actively manage the price of GLD shares.

The belief is still widespread that gold into GLD is a result of investor demand for gold, gold out is a result of lack of demand. Dan Norcini, a consummate technician, sticks to this interpretation even when a significant rise in GLD price fails to raise bullion levels. My assumption is that he believes that GLD is not actively managed, but arbitrage opportunities automatically maintain price correlation with gold. I get that and largely agree. But, after reading the GLD posts my question would be why the arbitrage would be captured in phys gold when it could be more easily captured with paper gold?

I am going to re-read these three posts over the next few days and see how the stew tastes today after simmering for awhile.

Knotty Pine said...

It's The Flow, Stupid

tEON said...

@Phat Repat

I think we may be talking about two different things.

The controls for gold movement are already in place. I wouldn't even attempt to take 10 X 1 oz coins, in my pocket, through Customs for fear it would be discovered (it exceeds the, imposed, 10K limit). You probably know that the dogs at the airport are currency sniffers - not drugs. The problem with BTC is its ability to be moved without the government knowing. This is not a practical positive. So, it would be simple to consider BTC an enemy of the state for this reason. They enforce through 'fear' - make examples of a dozen BTC smugglers and it will limit its appeal... extensively. The 'easy movement' will be the 'valid' reason to reduce/limit/end it. Gold doesn't have that problem. It's heavy, man... real.

As for Gold being overly taxed/confiscated I refer you to HERE or HERE.

Cheers,

Phat Repat said...

@Edwardo
"Possessing great hoard of gold is simply the result of a giant's super producer status. It's not that those who own the gold make the rules, it's that those who produce on a great scale unerringly want physical. It can be a tad confusing, but there it is."

Okay, thanks, and I do appreciate that POV.

"You may not like all the ins and outs regarding how the following dynamic operates, but in the world we live in, (as opposed to the one we might prefer to live in) when you not only pay the piper, but feed his entire extended family, you not only call the tune but, ultimately you get to pick the instruments, the key in which the tune is played and the venue for the performance."

Not sure if I get your point entirely here. If you're saying that, post FG, things will not be as they are today then that is certainly as I expect. If not, please expound.

In fact, I do tell those closest to me, when they lament the current hierarchy, "What you see today you will not see tomorrow." And that would be irrespective of FG; though I am aligned, and positioned, for that ideal.

Edwardo said...

tEON wrote:

I wouldn't even attempt to take 10 X 1 oz coins, in my pocket, through Customs for fear it would be discovered

Thanks to Uncle Sam, and I mean this seriously, your 10 ounces in coin form, would not come close to exceeding the 10K limit.

tEON said...

@Edwardo

Yes, quite true.

I don't know if you heard this story - making the rounds about 1.5 years ago regarding this guy taking Gold coins through Customs (US / Canada) and he declared it openly as the value (so he thought) - was slightly under the 10K limit. Turns out a price fluctuation, or his $/Looney miscalculation, and it was just over... and, hence, confiscated (as they 'can ' do with currency as well, over the 10K limit). I don't know the process to, try to, get it back or if the story is, even, true. I know a gal who does this (Customs) at the Airport and she says they confiscate currency 'over the limit' every week. She said if you want to take more than 10K - you must establish this ahead of time and get permission which, as long as you don't have a criminal record and it is not an exorbitant amount, is, usually, allowed. She didn't have anything to say about Gold.

Anonymous said...

Motley Fool/MatrixSentry,

What do you make of the current market environment? Are there any signals you are monitoring? Any ideas on what you expect Gold to do from here? What is the general plan you are following at this stage, given your knowledge of FG. Has anything changed since you first begun your Gold purchases?

Curious to what some long term posters think.

Motley Fool said...

Matrixsentry

+1's

^^

I simply copied the link, nice of you to highlight the relevant passages. And good commentary at the end. :)

Phat Repat said...

@tEON

Not so sure we are. Either way, I don't believe it is the business of my government (or any other government) to have any insight into my 'wealth'. Yes, taxes should be paid on income generated in your country; and then only the amount necessary to provide for reasonable defense and infrastructure expenses.

I have traveled with a limited amount of gold (a few ounces) and had an interesting experience when leaving China last time. I tend to collect coins when traveling since I am too lazy to dig them out when making a purchase (reaching instead for the pink paper). Any change I receive is tossed into the back pack. Well, on departure, I was asked to dump all my coins into a tray for their review. Fortunately, I keep my gold separate (wrapped/taped in an envelope), and tossed that aside. Though they groped the envelope, it wasn't sent through the xray.

Personally, I'm deeply offended by the need to declare cash/valuables when traveling. Not so sure at how sharp those dogs are since I tend to travel with more than the limit each time. ;-)

KnallGold said...

Basically there was no activity in GLD tonnage for 2 months. Yet, the $POG has risen. Have those taken delivery neutralized the buyers of GLD shares? Yeah that arbitrage thing...is there a scheme possible to camouflage things for sometime, now that there's a bit too much light? But the trend to outflow would resume again. We'll see...

Btw an analyst of LBBW called this $POG surge just a chart technical move within a bear market with a 1340 target.

Some day maybe I'll build an inverted waterfall figure on the carpet with my coins as my contribution to chart tech :-) yeah who would do chart technik with a savings account, how absurd...


Motley Fool said...

athrone

"What do you make of the current market environment? Are there any signals you are monitoring? Any ideas on what you expect Gold to do from here? What is the general plan you are following at this stage, given your knowledge of FG. Has anything changed since you first begun your Gold purchases?"

1. Shit is whack.
2. Yeah.
3. Go up, go down or move sideways.
4. Buy gold. Wait.
5. Yes. Found this blog and could not refute the buggers' arguments.

TF

Motley Fool said...

Edit :

3. Oh you said Gold. Maybe the means physical. In that case...Go east, as it has been doing. Continue accumulating in strong hands till the flow can no longer meet demand.

Anonymous said...

Motley Fool,

So no course corrections -- you haven't slowed, stopped, or accelerated buying?

tEON said...

@Phat Repat

Not so sure at how sharp those dogs are since I tend to travel with more than the limit each time.

Of course those dogs don't sniff Gold - only currency. :) But I hear you - I suspect even the, clueless, rent-a-cops in the West would value the coins at face. China is another story.

I don't believe it is the business of my government (or any other government) to have any insight into my 'wealth'.

While I agree with your sentiment that isn't going to stop me living in a world where it happens - often to the citizen's detriment. Just because I don't agree with a law - doesn't convince me that I should skirt it. Best of luck with exceeding the limit! I hope you remain free to continue.

While BTC may have temporarily solved this - I suspect the government will get the last laugh.

Motley Fool said...

I am somewhat limited in choice. If I had the option I would accelerate buying. So yes, I have seen Nothing that would give me pause and reconsider. And I am paying attention to everything, and despite the cultish mockery( and self-mockery) I try and keep an open mind, and think I do quite well in that.

Motley Fool said...

Ps. I am fairly confident that MS has a different answer for you.

Phat Repat said...

@tEON
"Just because I don't agree with a law - doesn't convince me that I should skirt it."

A nation of laws leads to a nation of slaves. Fortunately, what you see today, you will not see tomorrow.

Anand Srivastava said...

MF: What do you mean by fundamental monetary principles. Don't equate BTCs with currency. It is not a currency, and we don't need yet another currency.

tEON:
At present we are mining a lot of coins, and many people new to the system are losing lot of coins. mining >> losing.

As the technology matures the losses will reduce, because there will be systems that will be more demonstrably secure. Presently only the basic protocol and a handful of apps using it are secure. Most of the public websites have not implemented apps over the base very securely. This takes time.

So as mining reduces losses will also reduce. Eventually the losses will be very rare. gold is also lost in industry.
In any case the timeframe when losses > mining will be at least 50 years from now. Yes there could be a new system by then. BTC is definitely not intergenerational like Gold.

There can be nothing that is not artificially stabilized in value to have a stable value. Gold will be because it has a huge installed base. Anything that starts from zero, will have these huge swings.

By denying swings you are denying everything actually. You are saying that Stocks are bad because they have swings. I understand that you want to only save. But Gold is for that purpose. Bitcoin is something else. It maybe a store of value, but it is definitely not gold.

Motley Fool said...

anand

MS's reply @ February 21, 2014 at 6:47 AM suffices.

Franco said...

athrone:

I am not MatrixSentry or Motley Fool, but I'll give you my perspective anyway. If you you want to sniff around for signs of impending freegold, don't look at the price of gold, or the inventory of GLD or any of that crap. Nothing will change while the US dollar remains THE reserve currency of the world. So what I look for is signs of withdrawal of support of the dollar system by foreigners. That's why every month I wait for the release from the Treasury that shows net buying/selling of bonds/notes/agency debt/etc. by foreigners. In 2013 the accumulation dropped off a cliff, that is, the support is mostly gone. So I'm looking for one of two things to happen: either the rest of the world somehow returns to accumulating somewhere between $500 and $800 billion per year of treasury/agency debt, and the status quo lives on some more; OR the current situation remains, and it's not if but when shit hits the fan, and a new monetary system emerges on the other side.

As of now the fuse is lit and the flame is traveling toward the dynamite. Nothing needs to happen for the dynamite to detonate. The chain of events has already been put into motion. Will it be stopped, or will it reach its natural conclusion?

Anonymous said...

Nickelsaver said...
“First we'll notify all of the Central banks of the plan, give them plenty of time to acquire enough silver to get the job done.”

Sorry, I’ll stop you right there, you already went off the rails at step 1.


Central Banks? ......they are irrelevant in freegold system. The gold they hold may as well be in a black hole for all it matters…..if it just sits in the vault gathering dust. Marking to market is just an accounting gimmick. The only influence than can have is ‘if’ they engage in a two way ‘physical’ flow with the private and international markets in order to manage the MoE to SoV exchange rate. Something that will necessarily need to happen if gold is used to manage trade flows. Thus by definition they will also need to engage in a two way flow amongst private holders within their currency zone since mining rates are limited (i.e. high stock to flow ratio of gold).

Keep in mind even now most physical gold is in private hands. The fact that silver takes private ownership to almost 100% is neither a distinction nor detraction. In fact it means just the opposite, it means that in a freegold world the central banks will have virtually no ability to game (i.e. dump or hoard) the silver price like they will have for gold. It’s also an open question as to whether silver mines will be nationalized, unlike gold which is almost 100% yes.

Remember, silver and not gold ‘must’ flow for industrial needs. Further, those within the SoV physical realm that hold both physical gold and silver can not only completely by-pass the various MoE ponzi schemes now in place thanks to the Central Banks but actually accumulate via counter cyclical exchange against whatever silly games the Central Banks attempt to pull off, while ‘never’ leaving the physical SoV monetary world. They keep turning the wrench in attempt to game the SoV system and we just keep accumulating on both sides of the GSR swings.

For example the American Gold and Silver Eagles are considered ‘legal’ tender for all debts public or private ‘at’ their respective stamped values of $50 and $1. Maybe you can figure out the rest? Here is a hint, don’t think in paper terms.

“Then we'll notify all of the silver industrial users…”

This is also wrong. The capacity of silver to increase mining rates in the face of higher prices is well known fact. In fact this physical delay is used to trade gold into silver at low high GSR as the silver mining rate increases, silver goes down relative to gold. Gold at the same time as a limited to no ability to do the same even in the face of higher prices, only about third of the gold that can exist remains in the ground at this point. I also think the world will survive if an I-phone goes from $550 to $555, nope no riots in the streets, sorry to disappoint you.

The simple fact is that traders, if you want to call us that, will be out there whether you freegold purists want to believe me or not. In addition, just like with evolution, successful adaptations are ultimately self-reinforcing until they come to dominate the eco-system. For example the 5x gold hoard that will grow to 10x if/when the next GSR compression event occurs. In each doubling cycle we (collectively) will command more of the SoV market.

Now also like in biological systems, eventually they begin to compete with themselves at which point the ability to go rapidly from 5x to 10x and so on ends soon enough. But my guess based on thousands of year of human history this won’t happen until the GSR oscillations stabilize around 16. Then again we have thrown away about third to one-half of all the silver we could have mined so maybe the ratio will stabilize at an even lower GSR.

Now it’s also entirely possible that I just got lucky and the GSR fluctuations are just a fluke and will never to be repeated in the future, then again maybe not. As in all things it’s always better to be lucky than smart.

Michael dV said...

Phat
are you thinking the Chinese officials at departure (from mainland China) appeared to be looking for gold coins? I have been these a few times and never had close to that experience. Usually the lines are long (at the HK/China) border but things move along quickly.
That would be unusual and a significant change. It would mean capital controls (to keep wealth inside the country) and it would mean they are really serious as the coins in a pocket could not be much.
On the other hand maybe it was just a criminal minded agent looking for a quick score....though I have never experienced such a thing in China. People there seem very well behaved and I have even had tips returned ('we don't do that here' kind of thing)

Indenture said...

"Nothing will change while the US dollar remains THE reserve currency of the world." Tell that to the Giant waiting for physical gold. The dollar can still be functioning the moment physical gold can not be delivered. It's the moment after failure of delivery when the dollar is broken.

Our current dollar will function until it can't be exchanged for gold.

Franco said...

Indenture:

What do you think will happen first: the paper gold market will break, or the USD will hyperinflate?

Phat Repat said...

@MdV
This happened when departing from Guangzhou (heading towards Singapore/Frankfurt). This wasn't just your ordinary pocketful of coins. I probably had a hundred coins (various denominations/countries). Still, unusual for me since that isn't the first time I've traveled with that many 'regular' coins.

Either way, it was a unique experience and perhaps a one-off. I have noticed a slight shift in attitude; part of which I might attribute to our support of Japan and the Philippines. And you're correct, most are pleasant and wouldn't even think to steal from a foreign guest. Besides, at such a junior level, it wouldn't be tolerated.

I'm heading back over in the next few weeks (HK/Mainland) and will be traveling with my usual compliment of currency/precious. We'll see.

ein anderer said...

@Franco:
The chain of events has already been put into motion. Will it be stopped, or will it reach its natural conclusion?
Can it be stopped?

MatrixSentry said...

For the record, I watch everything I can as indicators of trend. I read perhaps 3 to 4 hours a day and I view everything through two lenses, the $IMFS lens and the Freegold lens. The idea is to maintain balance and objectivity.

Part of the view through the $IMFS lens is the technical landscape. Yes, although it's true I no longer trade, I do stay proficient at technical analysis and trade small positions while providing instruction. I believe a trader always has to have real money on the table to get an objective view of both the markets and his own ability as a trader.

With that in mind, I see weakness in the "gold" market. The chart is showing a very lackluster move off of $1180. So I'm watching how the chart handles the 200 day MA. The paper gold market may have another run, but as of now it doesn't look very likely.

I of course watch the flow of physical gold through the Freegold lens, looking for any change in the established trend of bullion flow from West to East.

I buy every few months regardless of the price. Price is immaterial when looking through my Freegold lens. While I am open to a different view and a different course of action, I have yet to be compelled to do anything other than what I have been doing since 2010.

I do have rather specific ideas as to when we can expect resolution. Those ideas come independent of Freegold and the discussions we have on this blog. This notion of when largely comes as result of my study into societal and economic cycles. I have the same view as FOFOA, that we have passed through a window of opportunity. It could happen any day, with an ultimate time horizon that could extend perhaps to 5 years or so.

Nothing tells me that we are backing away from Freegold.

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