Thursday, February 27, 2014

Think like a Giant 3


"The things I tell you will not be wrong.
Better to listen, than to talk.
Don't search for all the answers at once.
A path is formed by laying one stone at a time."

-The Giant from Twin Peaks

"If you are searching for facts you will find them,
but the items you find will not be true!
Did you think that the high powered world of the LBMA
would operate in a fishbowl for all to see?
We cannot take what is on the outside as evidence
for what is on the inside. To find the answer, work with
inside assumptions and extrapolate them to the outside!"

-ANOTHER

ex•trap•o•late : to infer (an unknown) from something that is known or assumed; conjecture.

I have an extrapolation to share with you. It is backed by sound logic and Another, if nothing else. Another wrote, "To find the answer, work with inside assumptions and extrapolate them to the outside!" That is what I will do in this post.

Michael dV went to see 'The Monuments Men' the other day, which is a movie based on the true-story book, The Monuments Men: Allied Heroes, Nazi Thieves and the Greatest Treasure Hunt in History. It is about an Army unit in WWII, comprised of seven museum directors, curators, and art historians, tasked with finding stolen art and returning it to its rightful owners. Mike wrote the following to me in an email:

In the movie there is a scene when the Americans find a painting in a farm house. The farmer says 'it was a gift'… the American replies 'but your CĂ©zanne says Rothschild on the back'.

Just thinking of Another as Guy gives me the ability to see how his point of view really is one with a long historical perspective, and one driven by a real need for humans to find a better way to manage themselves. I'm not rich but even I can feel the tribal nature of our species lining up to get my free shit. It must have been a struggle to keep what you had. One would keep a very close eye on politicians too. Being super rich must have been exhausting.

Another wrote about a two-tier gold market, where Giants were trading gold *IN SIZE* at a price that was multiples of the open market price. He wrote, "Think that I a fool, because I trade gold for thousands US an oz.? You will think much on this in the future."

There is disagreement, even within the ranks of evil gold hoarders and time misallocators, as to whether those statements should be taken literally. To make the ever-present religious analogy, it reminds me of the age-old disagreement, even among scholars, as to whether the Bible should be taken literally or figuratively.

My extrapolation—you can call it a hypothesis if you'd rather—is that what Another was revealing was not only 100% literal, but that it has been happening for centuries, not just in the 90s with an inevitable revaluation on the horizon. If you think about this idea for a moment, you'll see, then, that the much higher price at the giant level was not about an expected market revaluation; it was about something else entirely—gold's true value.

What got me thinking about it this way, as a hidden phenomenon possibly stretching back to the Middle Ages, was the "Barron" comment that was discussed recently: "This is not the relm of any public “wall street”. At one time it belonged mostly to the Barron. Now it is large with the BIS and super rich."

You'll have to bear with me because this will take a while to explain. What I'm conjecturing is that gold *IN SIZE* has been trading at multiples of its known price since probably as far back as this chart goes:


Another said, "At one time it belonged mostly to the Barron. Now it is large with the BIS and super rich." I think the "now" period (Now it is large with the BIS) refers to the 80s and 90s, perhaps even stretching back to 1971, but probably not before. And notice that he differentiates "the Barron" from the "super rich". Perhaps we could take that to mean the difference between "old money" and "new money", with "the Barron" representing old money.

There is a difference. Think about the difference between income and wealth. "New money" would be buying gold with new income as it is being earned in the present, while "old money" would be trading one asset for another, wealth representing money that was accumulated generations earlier.

Of course old money Giants earn income as well, and they even acquire new assets with some of that income in the present. For that income portion, I imagine they would go to the open market to acquire assets just like everyone else. Remember that Another also said, "Think now, if you are a person of "great worth" is it not better to acquire gold over years, at better prices?"

This slow accumulation "over years, at better prices" would be done at the same price as everyone else. But once you had built up a stash consisting of, say, hundreds of tonnes, which probably took generations to accumulate, it would suddenly have a much greater value than the market price said it was worth. It would kind of be the inverse of this: "It is to say " your wealth isn't as great as your currency says it is"!" In this case, it would be to say "your wealth is far greater than your currency says it is."

Obviously, if you had slowly accumulated hundreds of tonnes a couple hundred years ago, and then dumped it onto the open market all at once, you'd lose your shirt because the market price would crash and you'd only be able to redeem a fraction of what you had put into it. So that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about its value in trade with other Giants, within the hidden 2nd tier Giant market.

Looking at that chart above, gold was locked at about $20 per ounce for almost 250 years. Let's say, just for hypothetical purposes, that this 2nd tier market was around 20 times the public market price. I have no idea what it would have been, but 20 was a multiple mentioned by Another. 4M ounces is about 125 tonnes. At $20/oz., 125 tonnes would cost $80M. But you'd never be able to buy that much gold all at once, especially hundreds of years ago. Or maybe you could, but it would cost you at least $1.6B!

(FWIW, according to Niall Ferguson, James de Rothschild, Guy's great grandfather and the founder of the French branch of the Rothschild family, accumulated a personal fortune five times larger than Bill Gates. So 125 tonnes would have been about 2.5% of his fortune at market prices, but 50% at a 2nd tier price of 20 times the market price, which fits my hypothesis quite well.)

Now, think about the reasons why you might overpay by 20 times the market price in order to obtain that much gold all at once. It comes back to what Mike said above: "It must have been a struggle to keep what you had… Being super rich must have been exhausting."

Depending on how developed this hidden market of Giants was—and it could have been quite developed—you aren't overpaying at all, because the higher price you paid will be redeemed later by selling it to another Giant. It was simply a different price for otherwise unobtainable, extremely large (and if sold on the open market, market-busting sized) hoards of gold.

Still can't picture it? Well, consider the insane prices the uber-rich pay for other stuff, like Balloon Dogs, $100M homes, art, cars and so on. It's really a separate market in which they exist, where prices are ridiculously high all around. They don't buy a Jeff Koons Balloon Dog worrying about having to sell it at a swap meet some day. They buy it intending to sell it to another Giant down the road. It's a Giants' marketplace, and a 125 tonne hoard of gold is just as rare as any of the other things they trade at nosebleed prices, especially 200 years ago.

I talk about a "savers' circuit" in Freegold that is isolated from the rest of the market. Well, there truly is a "Giants' circuit" that has always been isolated from the rest of the marketplace. When you're a Giant, and you buy Giant stores-of-value, your marketplace truly consists only of other Giants. They, as a whole, are the future counterparty you count on should you, or your progeny, ever have to dishoard. You can't, and therefore don't, count on the rest of the marketplace.

I can think of many reasons why physical gold would be far more valuable than other stores of value to a true, old money Giant. But the biggest one is that it can be secured for the long haul. It can be buried. Other forms of wealth are quite vulnerable to uprisings of the hungry collective. Guy de Rothschild, in one lifetime, had it happen to him twice!

Sure, gold can be stolen too, but properly acquired and stored, it can be totally invisible, and that's the very best form of security. And when I say properly acquired and stored, you will never know the details of private deals that have happened at the Giant level. They were all done in total and absolute privacy. Not "cloak and dagger" skullduggery, but simple and rational privacy.

"I tell my children, as you may tell yours: "when a thousand hungry lions fight for one scrap of food, small dogs should hide with what's in their belly."

Here's the full conversation leading up to the "Barron" comment, which I also featured in Think like a Giant 2:

Date: Sat Nov 29 1997 15:53
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

Something interesting happened just ago that will, in time impact the price of gold in US$. A proposal was offered to borrow in broken lots, 3.5 and 5.5 million ozs for resale. It was turned down. The owner offered to sell only, no lease. What turned heads was that someone else stepped in and took it all, at a premium!


Date: Fri Dec 12 1997 22:18
sweat (To Anybody) ID#23782:


Is there any way to find out if the 9,000,000 oz. deal really happened?

Where might the trade have taken place?

Is this whole gold trading business really that much "cloak and dagger"?


Date: Fri Dec 12 1997 22:31
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

SW,
What is "cloak and dagger"?


Date: Fri Dec 12 1997 22:54
sweat (ANOTHER) ID#23782:


"Cloak and dagger" is an expression I would use for an action ( or trade ) done in great secracy.

My experience as a trader has taught me to value such things as
a ) time and sales - as reported on various exchanges
b ) open interest - as reported on various exchanges

The market always moves to size, you spoke of "making the turn". I would love to see documentation of a trade that size.

No offence intended, of course.


Date: Fri Dec 12 1997 23:08
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

SWEAT:
You will not see 80% or more of gold deals. If it was done with all to see the discount value would be lost as the world price would explode. This is not the relm of any public “wall street”. At one time it belonged mostly to the Barron. Now it is large with the BIS and super rich.


Put yourself back in time. It doesn't really matter when, but sometime during the hundreds of years that gold was used as official money, and think about how the Giants might view the monetary system in a way similar to the "discount trade" Another described in the 90s.

A Giant wouldn't care about the price of gold. If he already had a Giant stash, he'd have access to the 2nd tier market where gold *IN SIZE* traded at a different price anyway. And he'd have no reason to bust the gold market because, it was, in fact, the monetary system in which he became a Giant in the first place.

If he wanted "to acquire gold over years, at better prices" through the monetary system, he could. And if he wanted to trade gold *IN SIZE* for other Giant stores-of-value, he could do that as well. Those would have been very private off-market deals because of their size. Giants can't just step into the market *IN SIZE* without extremely negative consequences, like blowing up the monetary system that is serving them well and causing an uprising of the hungry collective.

If we put ourselves back in time to the FDR confiscation and revaluation, we can see that true Giants wouldn't have cared. In fact, it probably made more gold available to the Giants by removing it from the US banking system and using it only for external payments to Europe and elsewhere.

We'll never know how much gold is held by true Giants, but we do know that it's not the enormous hoards of "black gold" that conspiritards fantasize about. We know that more than half of the gold mined throughout all of history was mined in the last 50 years. And we know that at the height of the 20th century gold standard, more than half of the gold mined throughout all of history was used as monetary reserves within the system. We know that China and India have a cultural affinity for gold and have long been the top consumers of "wearable gold", so we can make some relatively reasonable assumptions about who has the gold.

I want to make it clear that estimates of the amount of gold mined throughout all of history, currently around 177,000 tonnes, are quite reliable. (Note that estimates vary, so a reasonable margin of error, like 3% or so, should be assumed.) Here's a table from the USGS of how much gold was mined globally going back to 1900:

Year
World Production (in metric tons)
1900
386
1901
395
1902
451
1903
496
1904
526
1905
575
1906
608
1907
623
1908
668
1909
687
1910
689
1911
699
1912
705
1913
694
1914
663
1915
704
1916
685
1917
631
1918
578
1919
550
1920
507
1921
498
1922
481
1923
554
1924
592
1925
591
1926
602
1927
597
1928
603
1929
609
1930
648
1931
695
1932
754
1933
793
1934
841
1935
924
1936
1,030
1937
1,100
1938
1,170
1939
1,230
1940
1,310
1941
1,080
1942
1,120
1943
896
1944
813
1945
762
1946
860
1947
900
1948
932
1949
964
1950
879
1951
883
1952
868
1953
864
1954
965
1955
947
1956
978
1957
1,020
1958
1,050
1959
1,130
1960
1,190
1961
1,230
1962
1,290
1963
1,340
1964
1,390
1965
1,440
1966
1,450
1967
1,420
1968
1,440
1969
1,450
1970
1,480
1971
1,450
1972
1,390
1973
1,350
1974
1,250
1975
1,200
1976
1,210
1977
1,210
1978
1,210
1979
1,210
1980
1,220
1981
1,280
1982
1,340
1983
1,400
1984
1,460
1985
1,530
1986
1,610
1987
1,660
1988
1,870
1989
2,010
1990
2,180
1991
2,160
1992
2,260
1993
2,280
1994
2,260
1995
2,230
1996
2,290
1997
2,450
1998
2,500
1999
2,570
2000
2,590
2001
2,600
2002
2,550
2003
2,540
2004
2,420
2005
2,470
2006
2,370
2007
2,360
2008
2,290
2009
2,450
2010
2,500
2011
2,700
2012
2,864
2013
3,018

We also have good estimates for various gold rushes throughout history. For example, the California Gold Rush in 1848 yielded around 3,700 tonnes, 570 tonnes came out of the Klondike 50 years later, and the Spanish conquistadors of the 1500s, while braving pirates in the Caribbean, brought home only around 154 tonnes from the New World over an entire century. Most of the bullion (both gold and silver) found its way back to Europe as the only practical source of goods for the New World colonies, which is why we have such detailed estimates.

For the rest of the gold, estimates are based on the tendency of gold to flow rather than hide in antiquity—a concept explained at length by FOA—and the quantities known to have resurfaced during various eras. The bottom line is that the actual scholars who have researched this subject in depth, as opposed to conspiritards who speculate wildly, believe that only around 10,000 tonnes existed prior to the California Gold Rush.

If we add up the numbers in the table above, about 147,000 tonnes have been mined since 1900. That leaves about 30,000 tonnes mined before 1900, and 10,000 tonnes mined before 1848. So about 20,000 tonnes were mined globally in the latter half of the 19th century, with 3,700 of those tonnes, or 19%, coming out of the California Gold Rush.

It should be noted that only a small percentage of prospectors got rich finding gold. The merchants serving the stampede of dreamers made far more money than the miners did during the Gold Rush. Think about that in terms of the Giants. They don't need to dig for gold. The diggers will happily hand over to them whatever they find, in exchange for the goods and services that they provide. And yes, banking is a fundamental service, even back in the Gold Rush days. It was even part of the main storyline in the Klondike miniseries.

This is all just to give you a rough idea of the amounts of gold that existed at various times, so that you can start to build a picture for yourself of how much gold we're talking about within this hidden 2nd tier Giant market. It's probably a lot less than you were initially thinking at the beginning of this post. There are, after all, only a few small handfuls of true Giants in this world, but there are certainly more today than there were 200 years ago.

In building this picture, we can look at various snapshots in time. For example, in 1845, prior to the Gold Rush, there was only about 10,000 tonnes of gold in the world, and only 84 tonnes, less than 1%, were held in central banks. 82 tonnes in the Bank of England, and 2 tonnes in the Bank of France. By 1900, there was more like 30,000 tonnes in the world, and 3,175 tonnes, or 11%, was held in central banks.

Viewed this way, we can see the rapid growth of the gold standard monetary system, and how it sucked in most of the new gold. By 1935, just after the FDR confiscation and revaluation, there were about 52,000 tonnes in the world, and 20,000 tonnes, or 39% of the total, was held by central banks. And 17% of the world's gold supply, almost 9,000 tonnes, was held by the US Treasury at that time.

At the beginning of WWII, there were about 58,000 tonnes in the world, and 65% of that gold, 38,000 tonnes, sat in central bank vaults during the war. The US Treasury alone held 19,500 tonnes at the start of the war. Here we can pause for a moment, simply to marvel at how, while the world's supply of gold grew six-fold in just 95 years, the presence of gold in central bank vaults exploded from less than 1% to 65% of all of the gold in the world during that same timeframe. The data comes from these historical tables put out by the World Gold Council:


In addition to the gold accumulated as central bank reserves, there was also more than 7,000 tonnes of gold that was minted into gold coins which circulated through the economy and within the commercial banking system as reserves during that same 95-year timeframe. But as you can see from the next table, following the FDR confiscation, most of that coinage ended up right back in the central banks.


To complete this picture, today central banks hold only about 18% of the world's gold. But even though the percentage has dropped, the absolute amount is almost the same as it was at the height of the gold standard. In 1952, what was the peak of the Bretton Woods gold standard just seven years after the war, central banks held 31,562 tonnes, and in 2014 that number is 31,320, virtually the same.

All that really changed is that we mined another 107,800 tonnes since 1952. So where did it all go?

My extrapolation is that new gold, that is, new mining supply, is always distributed at the market price. It comes out of the ground slowly, and it is acquired and accumulated slowly, "over years, at better prices," meaning the open market price. In this way, it is easy to imagine where 107,800 tonnes went over the past 62 years.

I mentioned above that we know "the East" (including the Middle East) has long had a cultural affinity for physical gold. As Another said, "It’s not that they are right or wrong to think this way, it’s that we want them to work for us! That is the problem! And when they worked for us we paid them! And who in the hell would have thought that they would have used so much of that pay to buy gold! Some bought in tiny amounts and some bought in large amounts."

And it's not just the "third world nobodies" that wanted gold. Following WWII, there was a new giant on the scene, Saudi Arabia, and its product was all the rage in the West. From 1952-1971, 23,524 tonnes were added to the above ground supply of gold. That sounds like a lot, but at the fixed price of $35 per ounce, it only represented $26.5B. Spread over 19 years, that's only $1.4B per year in surplus income needed to absorb (or corner) the entire global mining supply.

I'm sure there are much better statistics than this, but from what I found, it looks like Saudi Arabia produced about 1 mbd in the 1950s and about 2 mbd in the 60s on average. So, roughly, 10.5B barrels of oil, valued at $32B, for an average annual income of around $1.7B. Of course that's total, not surplus, income, but it does add some perspective. From a PPP trade perspective, one small country about the size of Alaska, with a population about the size of Texas, produced 20% more tradable purchasing power in oil than the gold produced by the entire rest of the planet from 1952-1971.

"But, today we come to a different period, with a different factor and circumstance. For during no period of history has an entity used a commodity to corner another commodity! The intent is not to "corner", but the result will be the same. This action is coming about because of a gross, huge mismatch of the value of gold and oil! We are not talking about the price of these items ( in any currency ) . We speak of the total amount of physical gold, worldwide and the total amount of oil worldwide. During the last twenty years, the world has made oil an absolute necessity for life as we know it. During the same time, gold has been degraded to a "kind of commodity that we may need sometime but, I'm not sure". With the public, government and the business community holding these thoughts, it is easy to understand which item is needed first and which would be dumped. In this day, people would sell gold for oil, no contest!

Consider the amount of oil that is used daily. Consider the future value that this consumption places on reserves in the ground. Compare this to the amount of gold consumed daily. Notice I said "consumed daily", not "traded daily". Clearly, the consumption of oil compared to the consumption of gold places a much higher value on oil reserves than gold reserves. With no replacement for the use of oil ( at present to lower prices ) and no "needed" use for gold in today's thought, we have the ingredients for a mismatch in value of epic proportions!"

This mismatch in value is much greater today than it was even in the 60s. As I have written in the past, the gold-oil ratio (GOR) has been roughly the same for the last 70 years, but while Saudi oil production has increased five-fold since 1965 (ten-fold since the 50s), global gold production has barely doubled. In other words, Saudi Arabia alone is, and has been for the last 25 years or so, pulling 3 to 6 times as much tradable purchasing power out of its in-ground national reserves as the entire rest of the world is pulling out of its gold mines. Not to mention other gold-accumulating oil-producing countries like Russia, China, Brazil, Venezuela, Iran and a few others in the Middle East who, combined, are now producing more oil than three Saudi Arabias.

This may not seem like a problem until you realize that the gold flow was so tight in the mid-60s that it collapsed the international monetary system by 1968, and it is more than 20 times worse today if we simply compare the purchasing power of oil coming from the BRICs plus the Middle East to new gold. "Oil is the only commodity in the world that was large enough for gold to hide in." Add to that "Big Trader" in the mid-90s—Chinese industrialist billionaires that emerged from the privatization of state-run industries in the late 80s and early 90s—who I wrote about in Seventeen.

This is a "physical flow at open market prices" problem. It's not that oil is traded 1:1 for gold, but that oil production depletes valuable national reserves, just like gold mining. So the more oil that is sold relative to the amount of gold coming out of the ground—at the same GOR—the smaller the proportion of that purchasing power that can be saved in physical gold. And "Oil", as well as emerging market industrial magnates, represents a relatively new breed of Giant that is now "acquiring gold over years, at better (open market) prices."

Again, in my extrapolation, "old money", or money earned in the past, is not a threat to the system. "New money", or money being earned today that wants to save some portion in gold, is.

Enter the paper gold market.

____________________________

"Now they have created the illusion of gold in
great supply to lower its value in currency terms,
and the Americans accept this. They do not question that this
illusion was done using paper contracts, that do not hold gold
but are priced in currencies that offer a yield valued only
in human emotion terms. It is in this fashion that the
greatest folly of Western thinking will bring an end
to an era of unvalued money. In the near future
a real value will be exchanged for gold and those
that hold paper gold will bid much higher to obtain
what they thought they already had!"

Before 1971, the dollar itself functioned much as the paper gold market does today, keeping anyone who otherwise would not be demanding of only physical gold sated with a globally-recognized expandable proxy. Western Giants in Europe didn't care because, at least in my extrapolation, they had their own 2nd tier market where their large hoards were fairly valued amongst one another. And they had no reason whatsoever to upset the apple cart. In fact, they had the opposite incentive.

Nevertheless, the apple cart was rolled in grand fashion. Perhaps it was the addition of "Oil" to the Eastern "third world nobodies" that added too much pressure to the system such that it peaked right after the debut of Saudi super-wealth and collapsed two decades later. It certainly wasn't the European old money Giants that did it, even though they theoretically could have. Only a government entity representing the hungry collective, as opposed to individual European Giants, would have had the stones to raid the monetary system itself for physical gold *IN SIZE*. A couple did, they were rebuffed, and the system promptly ended.

I tell my children, as you may tell yours:
"when a thousand hungry lions fight for one scrap of food, small dogs should hide with what's in their belly"


When a Giant tells this to his children, I imagine he means something like "when the hungry collective goes on the take, we must bury our bone deep."

15 years later, a new system of satiation-by-proxy was born, only this time there was a little more demand for the real stuff from a few of the newer "giant" players.

As I said above, in my extrapolation there's a big difference between newly earned "big money" (like "Oil" and the emergence of Eastern billionaires) and "old money" (large accumulations of wealth acquired by past generations seen mostly in Europe). And when it comes to gold, the store of value par excellence among these types of people, there's a difference in price depending on the *SIZE* of the exchange.

That difference is a very real (and, I think, undeniable) value difference. To someone who has $50B in net worth/assets (but no gold) and is worried about keeping it for generations to come, your 100 ounce shrimp stash of gold coins is worthless. But 50 tonnes in a one-off, totally-private and hidden off-market physical purchase *from another Giant* might be priceless.

You see, in my extrapolation, the gold portion of any "old money wealth portfolio" would be very small if calculated at open market prices. Probably 5% or less. But it would be much more significant, possibly as much as 50%, at 2nd tier "Giant" prices. And again, in my extrapolation, this would be a totally hidden system of very private wealth exchanges stretching back centuries.

"As long as there is an open market for gold, it will not be allowed to trade above it's commodity price! It has far to much value for that to happen. You see, in much the same way that a zero coupon bond trades at a discount to face, gold is traded for it's discount of " money value to commodity price! Think that I a fool, because I trade gold for thousands US an oz.? You will think much on this in the future."

As far as confusing Another quotes go, this was a big one. But let's see if it makes any more sense within my extrapolation. First of all, he distinguishes between gold's "money value" and its "commodity price." Earlier he said that "So many people worldwide think of [gold] as money, it tends to dry up as the price rises." So the discount when gold trades as a commodity is of great value because not everybody wants a basically-useless commodity. Only a few want it as money, and so the physical gold that necessarily flows to them comes from those who think of it as only a commodity, rather than coming from others who also value it as "store of value money". [Note that Another previously distinguished between "store of value money" and "medium of exchange currency" in this line: "Some time ago gold not only was used as money but also circulated as currency."]

So the gold going to "new money Giants" or the "Superproducers" of today (as opposed to those of yesteryear) would come from someone else, primarily the miners. If that flow dried up, meaning it was insufficient at the discount-market price (and it is today), then the value derived from the discount trade would be lost.

That value was that the gold demanded by new money Superproducers was coming from someone else, someone other than the old money hoards, including CB hoards. It was coming from Western gold bugs and the mines. It was never expected to be a permanent equilibrium, only a temporary fix to buy time. But it turned out to be insufficient after only a few years, which was the reason for the CB-backed "gold for oil deals" in the early 90s.

Those deals deferred overwhelming "new money" gold demand into the future, with the help of CB guarantees, in exchange for guarantees of future oil. But if another (non-oil-based) "new money Superproducer" found out that paper from the bullion banks was being implicitly backed by the gold in the Western CB vaults and was therefore as good as a physical purchase *IN SIZE* that could otherwise not be obtained on the open market without running the price, they might take advantage.

They did, and "what looked like big money before turned out to be little money as some HK people, I'll call them "Big Trader" for short, moved in and started buying all the notes and physical the market offered. The rub was that they only bought low, and lower and cheaper. They never ran the price and they never ran out of money. Seeing this, some people ( middle east ) started to exchange their existing paper gold for the real stuff. From that time, early 1997 LBMA was running full speed just to stay in one spot! In other words paper volume had to increase to the physical volume on a worldwide scale, and that was going to be one hell of a jump. It could not be hidden from the news any longer.

This was not far from the time that "Big Trader" said that "if gold drops below $370 the world would see trading volume like never before seen". The rest is history. Now the CBs will have to sell 1/3 to 1/2 of their gold just to cover whats out there. To use the Queens English "it ain't gona happen dude"!

Everything is now upside down and reversed. The more the CBs sell outright the more the price will rise.

It's not a bearish sign anymore. They will now sell to keep the price rising slowly."


Here we have Giant-sized, non-oil-based new money Superproducers buying, at the open market price, paper gold *IN SIZE* that they think will be made 24-karat good by Western CBs, even though it is way out in front of what the mines are capable of producing anytime soon, simply because the LBMA bullion banks got reckless and took their money while creating implicitly-CB-backed paper from thin air in exchange. Another summed it up succinctly: To use the Queens English "it ain't gona happen dude"!

Two fundamental principles in my extrapolation are that 1.) "old money" Giants do not buy gold from the open market, and 2.) "new money", including emerging "new Giants" do. #1 is easy to understand. You simply can't buy more of something than is being offered at market prices without disrupting the market and running the price, and old money Giants are simply too big to participate. The small amounts on offer are worthless to them even as the giant hoards they already possess are priceless. And the value of a stable "discount market" is that the gold flowing to present net-producers comes from someone else.

Recall that at the height of the gold standard, around half of the world's gold was within the monetary system. This was the "discount open market" at the time. A "new money" net-producer who wanted gold could simply withdraw it from the banking system as a way "to acquire gold over years, at better prices." But a Giant couldn't just go to the bank and exchange a few castles full of priceless artwork for a few hundred tonnes of gold in preparation for war.

#2 is also easy to understand. As Another said, "it’s that we want them to work for us!" And with a functioning currency system, we will not have to pay them 1:1 in gold. They will work for currency and, for those who like physical gold, they will spend their surplus earnings on gold that comes from someone else. If gold had to circulate 1:1 with every exchange, then those Giant hoards would lose their very special value to the Giants. Not that they would become less valuable in currency terms, but that Giant gold hoarders would become evil villains for hoarding the life blood of the economy.

"In the real world some people know that gold is real wealth no matter what currency price is put on it. Around the world it is traded in huge volumes that never show up on bank statements, govt. stats., or trading graph paper."

So the true value of gold for the Giants comes from the way they use it, as the best way to store a large portion of their wealth for the long haul, since uprisings of the hungry collective are actually quite frequent from a multi-generational perspective. And the value of the "discount trade" for the Giants is, very simply, a functioning currency system, such that they can hoard gold without constricting the lifeblood of the economy. But following WWII, a few things changed.

As you can see from the tables above, from 1900 until WWII, 100% of the new mining supply went into the monetary system. After the war, however, there was a "new money" Giant in town; let's call him "Oil". As it turned out, for whatever reason—probably cultural wisdom or something—he liked physical gold and wanted to be paid in it. And his product was of such great value to the rest of the world that we definitely wanted him working for us!

So while all of the newly mined gold went into the monetary system before WWII (as opposed to going into private hoards), none of it did after the war. Big change, huh? Another change was that, around 1965, a few of the CBs started behaving more like clueless old money Giants, demanding gold *IN SIZE* from the "discount market" which promptly collapsed in 1968.

You should be starting to see that the real value is in a functioning international currency system, and that the only thing that matters is the flow of physical gold, not its price (discounted or otherwise). The problems come when the physical gold doesn't flow in sufficient quantities at the discount price, causing an unexpected phase transition from an international currency system based on "discounted gold" to one in which everyone suddenly views gold as money.

Such a transition could send us all into bartertown, where physical gold must be proffered 1:1 as the medium of exchange until a new monetary system takes root and sprouts its more economically-lubricating fruit we know as currency-based credit money. So it's no big stretch to imagine the European old money Giants putting their heads together with European central bankers between 1968 and 1979 to come up with a contingency plan.

Perhaps what was needed was a new international currency, one built for non-discounted gold, that was not only in use before the transition, but also big enough to bridge the gap when it came. Sounds reasonable, right? Curiously, that's exactly the picture that Another painted. As MK wrote: "If his "THOUGHTS!" are theory; they are good theory. If they are speculation; they are reasonable speculation. If they are supposition; they are well-grounded supposition." I'd say it is well-grounded supposition that he knew exactly what he was talking about from first-hand experience.

"Something interesting happened just ago that will, in time impact the price of gold in US$. A proposal was offered to borrow in broken lots, 3.5 and 5.5 million ozs for resale. It was turned down. The owner offered to sell only, no lease. What turned heads was that someone else stepped in and took it all, at a premium!"

This is very interesting, because that's 280 tonnes he's talking about. No small potatoes, even at the discount price which was around $310 at the time, or $10M per tonne. A lot that size would have been about $2.8B at the discount price, yet someone stepped in and paid a premium!

That someone could have been any broker, and the way that market works, you'll never know who the real buyer was nor where the money came from. But I think it was "Oil" behind that purchase, and that they stepped a little bit outside "The Deal" when they did it.

That much gold would have been coming from a "new money Giant" of the kind that might have been approached in the early 90s:

"How DO they do it? It's more complicated than this but here is a close explanation. In the beginning the CBs didn't sell their own gold. They ( thru third party ) found someone else who had bullion."

The process would have been to ask someone with allocated bullion to trade it for unallocated credits which could then be sold, traded or whatever. But 280 tonnes would have been very large even for these deals, so it sounds like the approach in this particular case was to do it in two lots, but, surprisingly, the owner of the gold simply wanted out. He didn't want any special deals or CB guarantees. He just wanted cash. Perhaps he was fed up, having watched the POG fall 20% in a year.

A CB-sized hoard like that is best sold in a quiet, off-market deal so as to avoid spooking the market and driving down the price. And since he turned down their proposal and offered to sell only, he probably thought that being approached made for a good opportunity to unload his oversized hoard all at once, at close to the market price. I'm sure he was surprised when someone took it all, at a premium.

Another said this deal "turned heads." It certainly could have been the seller boasting about the premium he received that turned a few heads, but I'm guessing that the "turned heads" Another was referring to were his own, his peers, and a few at the BIS.

"You will not see 80% or more of gold deals. If it was done with all to see the discount value would be lost as the world price would explode. This is not the relm of any public “wall street”. At one time it belonged mostly to the Barron. Now it is large with the BIS and super rich.

It is important to understand that none of these CB sales of physical need to go to the open market at all! The BIS could take it all…

The BIS, instead of taking it outright, places it where it's needed!..

Make no mistake, the BIS knows gold in the many thousands…

We have seen the last of cheap oil in US$ as the oil states are no longer taking paper gold! I think a large purchase of bullion was just made by them. It should have been paper. The BIS must soon take a stand!"


Another made that last comment the day after he mentioned the "head-turning" purchase at a premium, which was on Nov. 29, 1997. Isn't that interesting?

"Something interesting happened just ago that will, in time impact the price of gold in US$. A proposal was offered to borrow in broken lots, 3.5 and 5.5 million ozs for resale. It was turned down. The owner offered to sell only, no lease. What turned heads was that someone else stepped in and took it all, at a premium!"

Large lots of physical like 280 tonnes are not supposed to be purchased at anywhere near the market price. The flow of physical at the market price is already cornered by "new money" accumulating slowly, including millions of "third world nobodies" who like to save in gold. It has been this way since WWII as evidenced by the fact that 108,000 tonnes mined since then have disappeared into private hands.

Before WWII, none of the new gold in the 20th century went into private hands as we can see from the tables above. This supports the idea that "old money Giants" do not engage the open (discount) market. 280 tonnes in a single purchase can only come from "old gold," meaning either a central bank or a private hoard. This also supports the idea that the rules of the game of Giants are more intuitive than explicit, at least in the last 70 years with the emergence of a new breed of Giants.

It is a basic principle that you cannot buy more of something than is being offered without being prepared to pay a premium. This is an intuitive truth to a Giant—one who doesn't have to "think like a Giant" but just has to think, period, because he is one. Extrapolating this basic principle that exists as a simple fact of life to Giants in all of their market interactions might lead one to my hypothesis even without the benefit of Another spelling it out. But I'm not quite that smart, so thank goodness for Another!

Over time, say, from the Middle Ages up until WWII, this basic principle would likely have developed into a system of sorts, for those who found themselves in a position to participate. One with a deep family history involving such a system of sorts, had such a system of sorts existed, might describe it like this: "This is not the relm of any public “wall street”. At one time it belonged mostly to the Barron."

The fact that Another could share this so casually and candidly supports the idea that there was truly nothing "cloak and dagger" about it. So what if one Baron in 1800 paid another Baron 10 or 20 times the gold standard price of gold for a 50 tonne hoard? Would that have to be a big secret? I doubt that either party would have a single reason to boast about the trade to a shrimp, but even if he had, it's not like the shrimp could then find someone to buy his 50 ounces at the same price per ounce. Small stashes are worthless to Giants, while 50 tonnes in 1800, 0.5% of all the gold in the world at that time, might have been priceless.

This begs the question of which is gold's true value. Is the open market price a discount for smaller individual purchases, or is the Giant market price a premium on large ones? To answer this question, just think about the times when the flow of gold at the discount market price became suddenly insufficient, requiring drastic measures of one kind or another. More specifically, think about it from a Giant's perspective.

These are relatively frequent occurrences. In Guy de Rothschild's 98-year lifetime, it happened at least three times. 1922, 1933 and 1968-1971. Each time, gold was removed from the monetary system a little bit more. From a gold bug's perspective, this was, at best, cheating, and at worst, criminal. But from a Giant's perspective, those who value gold at multiples of its monetary system price and who wield the kind of influence that gets things done, this was always the desired outcome. As I said, you're a jerk if you hoard the lifeblood of the economy, and it's much more preferable to evolve the economy's lifeblood than to have to fear for your most valued possession.

Think about Nathan M. Rothschild, who twice, once in 1815 and again in 1825, gathered enough gold for the British Crown to first fight a war against Napoleon, and then to bail out the British monetary system (the Bank of England). Think about where that gold came from. There are two ways to get gold from a Giant/Baron who has no reason to ever sell his gold. 1.) Make him an offer he can't refuse (your gold or your head), and 2.) make him an equitable offer he can't refuse. Given the fact that N.M. Rothschild became the official gold broker to the Bank of England for the next 200 years, I'd say it was probably the latter.

Does that mean that N.M. Rothschild gave his own gold to the Crown? Of course not. "This is not the relm of any public “wall street”. At one time it belonged mostly to the Barron." Rothschild would have known where to go for almost any amount of gold, and what it would cost. Who knows what treasure, favors and currency England paid for enough gold to fund an army and then a central bank within 10 years of each other, but it would have certainly been more than $19 an ounce.

True Giants have no need to ever sell their gold. And since it is not the realm of any public “wall street”, you'll never know how much they have nor where it is hidden. They sell only when approached by a peer seeking a large hoard and offering an attractive and equitable price. This is the very essence of the 2nd tier price. It is not derived from its liquidation value, but from the perpetual accumulation/non-liquidation by Giants in aggregate.

It is an intuitive truth from the Giants' perspective that, in a situation where emergency liquidation requires engaging the open market, they will never redeem even close to what they put in. This goes for gold as much as it goes for $100M artworks and other Giant wealth items. The future counterparty to the Giants' future liquidation has always been other Giants.

To put it in terms that even shrimps can understand, Giants buy and hoard gold *IN SIZE* at multiples of the market price because of the confidence that other Giants will always buy and hoard gold *IN SIZE* at multiples of the market price, because of the confidence that even more Giants will buy and hoard gold *IN SIZE* at multiples of the market price, ad infinitum.

Old money Giants don't need to save for retirement. They were born set for life. If the Giants of this world all decided to liquidate at the same time (liquidate into what, currency for milk and bread?), then they would lose most of their wealth. They know this intuitively, and they also know that it's never going to happen. They know that they can be killed, robbed, nationalized or whatever—those are real concerns—but they also know that a fantasy like Giant liquidation en masse is just a fantasy of envious shrimps. And they know that keeping as large of a proportion of their wealth in gold as possible is the best way to mitigate those real concerns. Even better if gold is not the lifeblood of the economy.

This is where gold's true value comes from… the Giants!

Consider that official (CB) gold reserves today stand at 31,320 tonnes, the same amount as in 1952. Since then, 108,000 tonnes have been mined. Who has all that gold? Certainly not Western traders today! So where do you think it went? It obviously went somewhere, because gold sells out every year.

If we take today's 31,320 tonnes in central banks and subtract 3,175 tonnes (the amount in CBs in 1900), then net CB additions over the last 114 years were 28,145 tonnes. That's almost precisely the amount of gold mined between 1900 and 1940, which was 28,142t. This means that all of the gold mined from 1941 onward, or almost 119,000 tonnes, has disappeared into private hands, while all of the gold mined before the war in that century went into public treasuries. And again, this dramatic shift coincides with the emergence of Saudi Arabia as a new money Giant. In essence, the flow of "discount gold" has been cornered ever since the Saudis demanded gold for their oil in the 1940s.

"We made an agreement with Ibn Saud that we would give him gold for every ton of oil we took out of his country, we would give him gold. And we did at first. Then we got producing more and more and more. And try to find gold schillings to meet the requirements so we could ship another ton. And finally we had to tell him that we couldn't find that much gold. There wasn't that much gold. We had now, such an enormous business that we cleaned the world of gold schilling."
-Gwin Follis, former chairman of Standard Oil of California


Beginning in 1945, the US minted special gold disks, at the discount market price of $35 per ounce, for Aramco to deliver to King Saud. This was necessary because Aramco simply couldn't source enough gold at the official price on the open market. In fact, it was reported that many of those gold disks we sent were then shipped to Bombay where they were sold for $70 per ounce, melted into bars and then resold in Macao.

In 1948 Saudi Aramco started its own airline for, among other things, delivering 8,000 lb. shipments of gold to the King. King Saud died in 1953, and in 1961, the airline ceased international operations.


That was right around the time that cracks first started appearing in the 17-year-old Bretton Woods international monetary system, due in part to the rising price of gold on the open market. And it was the same year that eight central banks—US, Germany, England, Italy, France, Switzerland, Netherlands and Belgium—resolved to covertly use their own gold reserves to fix the open market price in London at $35 per ounce. With the fix in, backed by eight CBs holding 40% of the world's gold, the Saudis could simply use their dollar profits to buy as much gold as they wanted in London.

That lasted for seven years.

During the 1970s, the "new money" Giant in town, "Oil", learned a lesson about gold. It was a very valuable lesson that prepared him for "The Deal"…

Date: Sat Oct 18 1997 21:04
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

I ask you now: " Is it hard to believe or hard to understand"? When it comes to money it's usually both.

Know this: "gold transcends human valuations thru time and life". . Take your time on this one!

Gold is now caught in a crossfire of world thought. The traders are viewing it as a commodity and trying to make money on its moves using various paper trading vehicles. Their opinion of the market is flawed because the "real value buyers" would never deal with these people or let anyone in that circle know they are buying gold as "money"! The major buying and selling is between CBs, nations, merchant banks, "the super rich" and the hordes of small buyers in forgotten places. That is one of the small many reasons wall street hates gold, they are not part of the real action. Comex is a side show!

Let me fill in the Xs.

First a reprint;
"You see the trading medium changed. Oil went from $30++ to $19 + X amount of gold!
Today it costs $19 + XXX amount of gold! "

If you owned a commodity in the ground that had to be sold for paper currency in order to realize value what would do? Yes, the oil in the ground may last another 50+ years but will the bonds and currencies of other governments last that long? One thing you don't do is buy gold outright, it would cause it to stop trading as a commodity and start trading as money! You learned that in the late 70s. Nor do you acquire "real gold money" in any fashion that would allow a comparison of price trends ( graphs ) ! There must be a way to convert the true wealth of oil into the outright wealth of gold. We know that oil is a consumed wealth of a momentary value that is lost in the heat of fire.

The stars blink and it is oil wealth no more!

It has become "the debt of nations " now owed to you. Gold on the other hand is not a commodity as many assume, as it is truly "the wealth of nations " meant to last thru the ages! A wise oil nation can strike a deal with the paper printers and in doing so come out on top. Go back a few years to the early 90s. Oil is very high, you offer to lower the US$ price in return for X amount of gold purchasing power. You don't care what the current commodity price of gold is, your future generations will keep it as real wealth to replace the oil that is lost. Before the future arrives gold will be, once again valued as money and can be truly counted on to appropriately represent all oil wealth!

The Deal:

We ( an oil state ) now value gold in trade far higher than currencies. We are willing to use gold as a partial payment for the future use of "all oil" and value it at $1,000 US. ( only a small amount of oil is in this deal ) And take a very small amount of gold out of circulation each month using its present commodity price.

If the world price can be maintained in the $300s it would be a small price for the west to pay for cheap oil and monetary stability.

The battle is now between CBs trying to keep gold in the $300s and the "others" buying it up. In effect the governments are selling gold in any form to "KEEP IT" being used as 'REAL MONEY" in oil deals! Some people know this, that is why they aren't trading it,, they are buying it.

Not all oil producers can take advantage of this deal as it is done "where noone can see". And, they know not what has happened for gold does not change in price! But I tell you, gold has been moved and its price has changed in terms of oil! For the monthly amount to be taken off the market has changed from $10 in gold (valued at $1,000) /per barrel to the current $30 in gold /per barrel still valued at $1,000! Much of this gold was in the form of deals in London to launder its movement. Because of some Asians, these deals are no longer being rolled over as paper!

What is happening now is far, far larger than the interest of a few traders or mining companies. They will be stepped on!

Date: Sun Oct 19 1997 09:42
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

There is only one oil state that counts! Only one! They have made it very clear how important gold is to them. If they had started buying outright, gold would have gone to $5,000+ in days. And only a very few million ozs. would have been purchased! The message has been for some years, "we will accumulate thru the back door, using paper deals if you keep the price at or below the cost of production". Do this and oil will remain THE driving force of the world economy!

FAIL THIS AND WE WILL PRICE GOLD IN DOLLARS AT THE TRUE VALUE OF OIL TO THE WORLD!

You see, gold is not a commodity. The CBs have used every weapon to keep its price low . Understand me, Gold is now, today, a devalued currency being used in world trade!

Do you think the CBs are selling gold to keep the dollar strong? They don't have to sell to accomplish that feat! CB gold ( one billion ozs.? ) valued at its current commodity price is only worth 300 billion, it's nothing in that price range! They know what it's US$ price is worth in terms of oil! They are not stupid as they show.

Date: Sun Oct 19 1997 13:41
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

If you are searching for facts you will find them, but the items you find will not be true! Did you think that the high powered world of the LBMA would operate in a fishbowl for all to see? We cannot take what is on the outside as evidence for what is on the inside. To find the answer work with inside assumptions and extrapolate them to the outside!

Think now:

Would the world CBs really have kept gold this long if they only valued it at its ongoing commodity price? Cannot only the offer of gold have some value in a deal? Can paper gold that has a commodity face value of, say $300 be traded for its true value of many thousands? Indeed, if your worldly investments ( US stock market? ) are valued in the long run by a full supply of oil, would not future gold in a Swiss acct. make a good trade?

Date: Sun Oct 19 1997 17:26
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:

Where are my THOUGHTS leading?

Yes, Mr. Cole you are correct. The Central Banks have known for quite some time the true value of gold in today's paper world. In a very real sense they are on our side. Let's take their side if you will. They are not dumb or stupid, in fact many of them are the best of the best! You see, the world grew up and ran away from them, totally out of control. It has left in its wake a money system of colossal debt and political mismanagement. They know it is over…

The Asians are the problem, by buying up bullion worldwide and thru South Africa they created a default situation on all the paper for the oil / gold trade! Now the CBs are selling in the open to calm nerves but it's known that they will never sell enough. It was never their intent to provide the gold, only the backing until new mining technology could increase production. Over time the forward sales, such as ABX's should have worked. But LBMA went nuts with the game and the whole mess has now accelerated.


Another wrote, "The Central Banks have known for quite some time the true value of gold in today's paper world." How long was "quite some time"? He also said, "the world grew up and ran away from them, totally out of control." I imagine that the world grew up and ran away from them during the period from 1968 (the collapse of the London Gold Pool) through 1979 (the IMF meeting in Belgrade). This fits my hypothesis perfectly! I wrote above: "So it's no big stretch to imagine the European old money Giants putting their heads together with the European CBs between 1968 and 1979 to come up with a contingency plan."

So some in the BIS knew. Life usually delivers us lessons the hard way, but once in a while we are graced with wise counsel from "another". "This is not the relm of any public “wall street”. At one time it belonged mostly to the Barron. Now it is large with the BIS and super rich." "Now" (ever since the 70s) it is large with the BIS… And the BIS came up with a plan!

As I said, a fundamental principle of my extrapolation is that "new money" (money earned through present net-production) gets to buy gold on an ongoing basis ("is it not better to acquire gold over years, at better prices?") at the (discount) market price. The flipside to that principle is that you can't just accumulate other assets for years, like a trillion in USTs, and then expect to convert them all at once into physical gold at the open market price. Giants understand this principle intuitively, even if others don't.

Understanding this principle, the BIS plan to support the $IMFS, until an alternative currency could be launched, included allowing "Oil" (really just the Saudis) to accumulate real physical gold at the market price for as long as it took. The problem was that oil is so valuable to the world that there wasn't enough gold flow at market prices to suffice. So the plan was to sell them the gold that was still in the ground, knowing it would someday come out!

So a paper market was created that was backed by forward sales from the mines and, to an extent, performance guarantees from the CBs. The CBs in aggregate held more than 35,000 tonnes at that time, equivalent to almost 18 years of global mining supply, so a CB guarantee had some serious credibility. But the euro took longer than expected, and the BIS plan had some flaws, like the expectation that mining production would quintuple with the help of additional financing through forward sales.

Even so, the BIS plan had worst case scenarios covered:

"The gold, while indirectly backed by the CBs would actually come from the mines of the future. With the oil money making a ready market for gold priced at a premium ( contangoed out many years ) , the mines could make a fair profit even with spot gold priced below production. All would win! And for some time, we did! I am able to know some CBs, they are not evil, their minds are for the best that can occur. But, I THINK the world ran away from them. The paper world of gold is now a mess with no resolve! […]

The BIS will not allow the distribution of all gold to settle claims. The mines of the world will be forced to sell to the BIS at the "locked" existing commodity price of gold. This will happen over many, many years as no other "official" market outside the BIS will exist. […]

There is one oil state that no one will play for a fool. The CBs will sell all of their gold or the nations will nationalize all mines and operate them at a loss. One way or another, most of the paper gold market will be honored. Why? Because oil will bid for gold if they do not! We are not talking about an oil embargo or rising oil prices. Indeed, oil will become very cheap for those that can supply physical gold. This deal will not require the agreement of all oil states. Only one can start this, the others will gladly follow. […]

In that day, "good money" will become "bad money" and "derivatives" will be paid to the holders of "derivatives"! In that day, a gold mine will also be paid in "derivatives", for its gold will be for the benefit of all."


The worst case scenario didn't happen. Even though the anticipated increase in annual mining rates didn't pan out, the BIS knew that, at the end of the day, "the deal" would be fulfilled with someone else's gold. Quickly or slowly, with or without revaluation, the gold that had already been sold would come from the mines. And it did!

In 1997, the CBs in aggregate had 33,894 tonnes. They sold a bunch, and even dropped down to around 29,000 tonnes in 2008, but now they are back up to 31,320t in aggregate, a net loss of 2,574t since 1997. During that same timeframe, another 40,792 tonnes were mined. Mining plus what the CBs sold comes to 43,366 tonnes since 1997. So where did all of that gold go?

It's impossible to know how much of that gold went to Western shrimps and "hordes of small buyers in forgotten places" versus Giants, but I think we can get a general idea of the scale by looking at a couple Western shrimp aggregates. Some 1,000 tonnes went into new coins (coins are for shrimps!). Another 2,100 tonnes (net to date) went into ETFs and other tradable funds (ETFs are also for shrimps!). But the majority went into "jewelry demand" which is a euphemism for "third world nobodies" who have "kept the gold market bought up" for the last 50 years or more, even squeezing out the "new money Giants." And the remainder probably went to "Oil" and a few other "new money Giants." That's 3,100 tonnes that went to Western shrimps and traders, and ~40,000 tonnes that went to those who view gold as (store-of-value) money and don't care about its currency price! (Assuming a considerable margin of error, of course!)

The WGC, which is the market development organization for the commodity-gold industry, does a great job of tracking the supply and demand "facts" for the gold market. I'm going to mention some of them, but first I want to remind you of what Another said about gold "facts": "If you are searching for facts you will find them, but the items you find will not be true! Did you think that the high powered world of the LBMA would operate in a fishbowl for all to see? We cannot take what is on the outside as evidence for what is on the inside. To find the answer, work with inside assumptions and extrapolate them to the outside!"

The WGC lumps half of the annual demand for gold as well as half of all of the gold in the world into the "Jewellery" category which, as I mentioned, is a euphemism for "third world nobodies" who have "kept the gold market bought up" for the last 50 years or more:


In their latest publication, they summed the "facts" up nicely:

"The gold market became polarised in 2013 as 21% growth
in demand from consumers and value-seeking investors
contrasted with large-scale outflows from ETFs. The net
result was a 15% decline in full-year gold demand in a year
where jewellery, bar and coin demand reached an all-time
high.

Let’s get physical: record breaking year
for consumer demand


Consumers put on an impressive show of strength last year,
generating a 21% increase in demand for jewellery, small bars
and coins (collectively referred to as ‘consumer demand’) to
a historic high of 3,863.5 tonnes (t)."

I stopped there because of that number: 3,863.5 tonnes. "Consumers" as the WGC calls those who view gold as (store-of-value) money, or "jewellery, small bars and coins (collectively referred to as ‘consumer demand’), " what I would instead collectively refer to as shrimps and "third world nobodies," demanded 3,863.5 tonnes last year, even as the currency price declined 28%. Only after factoring in Western trader demand for paper gold can the WGC turn a 21% increase in physical demand into a 15% decrease in overall demand. "If you are searching for facts you will find them, but the items you find will not be true!"

Anyway, mining supply was HUGE last year, even as the price of gold dropped below sustainable levels. Apparently the mines are in survival mode—like an organism that consumes its own body and signs deals with the devil in hopes of surviving one season—which doesn't bode well for them long term. But even at 3,018.6 tonnes, a 12% increase over the three year average, they still fell short of demand from shrimps and "third world nobodies" by 845 tonnes. Of course I am ignoring technological demand (gold used in electronics) and recycling supply (scrap) here. Combined, they probably cancel out each other plus the additional 845 tonnes demanded by "jewellery." So let's just say that supply met demand last year amongst the commodity-gold industry and the shrimps, both East and West. In essence, shrimps and "third world nobodies" already have new gold cornered today by themselves, so what about new money Giants?

"To find the answer, work with inside assumptions and extrapolate them to the outside!" Another gave us so many great little details, and one of them was how much gold Saudi Arabia was buying in 1991! He wrote: "What quantity of GOLD, paper or physical, has OIL traditionally purchased on an annual basis? From 1991, appx. 20m/oz./yr., now it is more."

Extrapolating, that's about a 10% savings rate on their total oil production. If we extrapolate that further to all of the non-dollar-bloc gold-loving oil producing nations, that's (conservatively) 3,200+ tonnes per year at today's prices. And that's not only to point out that it's more than the mines are supplying right now, but it is also on top of no supply left after the shrimps and "third world nobodies" get done with the carcass. Add Big Trader on top of that (how much gold is China importing these days?) and you can start to picture a rubber band stretched to the brink of its breaking point.

I understand deeply, how difficult it is to picture a significant revaluation of gold, or that the value after revaluation is already present. But it's not about the price. It's about the relative value of other real things. It's about the relative value of an ounce of gold to, say, a barrel of oil. And therein lies the disconnect between gold and everything else.

There is nothing intrinsic to gold's primary function that makes a greater weight more valuable or useful than a lighter weight to those who use it as a wealth reserve. This is what separates gold from commodities. There is, in fact, an essential quality in the use of commodities that makes a greater weight more valuable than a lesser one. More oil is more valuable than less oil because it burns longer. More pork bellies are more valuable than less because they can feed more people. More copper is more valuable because you can pipe more houses. But gold is the opposite. A lesser weight of gold, if it had the same price as a greater weight, performs its primary function more efficiently. This is not true for commodities.

Think about this in terms of Giants hypothetically storing intergenerational wealth in hoards that are 20 times lighter than they would be at the discount market price. Is it not easier to hide 50 tonnes than 1,000? It is certainly more efficient to dig a smaller hole, or build or rent a smaller vault. So, again hypothetically, if they were able to store value in such a way and redeem that value later from other Giants, a lesser weight is intrinsically more valuable than a greater one.

The "inside assumption" I'm using here comes from Another's inference that such a 2nd tier market does indeed exist, and that it at one time belonged mostly to the Baron. Baron, as it is used here, is a generic term referring to the kind of nobility, power and influence that sprung from being a tycoon, magnate or mogul of industry as opposed to simply being of royal blood.

The royals ran the country. They were, in essence, the government, and it was essentially their gold that circulated throughout the economy as they had a legal claim on the kingdom. But the baron's wealth, by contrast, was a private treasure that needed to be secured and protected. As I mentioned above, Baron Nathan M. Rothschild was called upon twice by the British Royal Crown to source and deliver large amounts of gold. And he did.

This is the problem with a "discount market" in gold, whether it's as currency or a commodity, that periodically (quite frequently actually), larger weights than are otherwise available at the market price must be provided to satisfy demand. This was the whole purpose of the London Gold Pool which began when the BOE noticed it was having to supply its own reserves in 1961.

If the market operator doesn't have sufficient reserves, or doesn't want to use his own, then they must be sourced from someone else. In N.M. Rothschild's day, a king, like a CB today, would have been able to pay the 2nd tier price, without the pain of work, through favors, treasure or currency. But such third party sourcing, when it is for the purpose of supplementing the discount market supply, must be done off-market in very private deals for obvious reasons.

If you're using your own gold to supplement the discount market supply, as the CBs have done in the past, it can be done in basically three ways. It can be done in the open market covertly, as in the Gold Pool. It can be done in the open market openly, as the US Treasury and IMF did in the late 70s and the BOE did in 1999. Or it can be done in off-market sales to specific buyers to keep them out of the open market.

In the late 80s and early 90s, the CBs learned that even the offer of future gold from a credible source who has lots of gold can have value:

"Would the world CBs really have kept gold this long if they only valued it at it's ongoing commodity price? Cannot only the offer of gold have some value in a deal? Can paper gold that has a commodity face value of, say $300 be traded for it's true value of many thousands? Indeed, if your worldly investments ( US stock market? ) are valued in the long run by a full supply of oil, would not future gold in a Swiss acct. make a good trade?"

In addition to the promise of future gold in a Swiss account, they also sourced large hoards from 3rd parties wherever possible, again with just the promise of CB sales if they became necessary:

"In the beginning the CBs didn't sell their own gold. They ( thru third party ) found someone else who had bullion. That "party" sold to a broker who sold forward for a mine or speculator or government ) . In the end the 3rd party had the backing from the broker that he had backing from the CB to supply physical if needed to put out a fire."

They may have even sourced some at 2nd tier prices through the Baron:

"Think that I a fool, because I trade gold for thousands US an oz.? You will think much on this in the future."

But by 1997, all the 3rd party private stockpiles that could be sold were gone, and the CBs had to become the primary suppliers with their own gold:

"The world private stockpiles that could be sold have been. The CBs are heavy into their own stuff now and are over their heads if they had to make good on all the private deals."

In 1997, due to the spike in paper trading volume, "Oil" stopped rolling its paper forward and started buying physical wherever it was offered:

"Because of some Asians, these deals are no longer being rolled over as paper!"

Here we can see what was possibly the exodus of "the world private stockpiles that could be sold" from London in 1997:


And here we can see the CBs using their own gold to supplement the discount market. Notice that it ended in 2010, the same year that GLD inventory plateaued:


Another made three things about the CBs using their own gold quite clear. 1.) They didn't want to use their own gold:

"Now the CBs will have to sell 1/3 to 1/2 of their gold just to cover whats out there. To use the Queens English "it ain't gona happen dude"!"

2.) They valued gold "in the many thousands" even as it was trading at $300:

"Make no mistake, the BIS knows gold in the many thousands."

He later told us how many thousands:

"The selling of old dollar reserves, alone will reprice gold in US$ terms of at least $6,000/oz! It's present interbank reserve value."

And 3.) what they did was not meant to be a permanent fix. They were just buying time:

"Westerners should not be too upset with the CBs actions, they are buying you time!"

From my shrimp perspective, thank goodness they did, for they bought time for me to buy gold since I didn't start buying until 2008! But thinking like a Giant, this picture, perhaps, reveals a new angle on "support for the paper gold market," doesn't it? The 2010 reversal of CB gold sales in the chart above looks like blatant removal of support in this light, does it not? Remember what Ari told me in 2010?

ARI (via email Dec. 2, 2010) - For the past half-decade, many international policy stirrings gave every indication to me that 2010 was to be the targeted year...

If the CBs "bought" time until 2010, would that mean we are now on borrowed time? ;D

There are a couple of important concepts I want to discuss in the context of this Giant extrapolation. The first is the concept of the dynamic phase transition. If we look simply at my hypothetically potential physical demand numbers above, compared to the amount of new gold being produced, it looks (roughly) like a 3X revaluation would resolve the hypothetical supply and demand mismatch.

In other words, it seems like if the price of paper gold could rise, in isolation (which it can't), to around $4,000 per ounce, then global mining could supply "new money" demand from "Oil", "Big Trader" and "third world nobodies" who seem to be the only ones who want physical. There are several problems with this view, but one of the big ones is that phase transitions are dynamic:

"Gold has always been funny in that way. So many people worldwide think of it as money, it tends to dry up as the price rises."

"History has shown that when paper assets start to be revalued downward by gold ( gold rises ) , it's physical supply dries up!"

This "hypothetically potential physical demand" I'm talking about is the "value mismatch" that has the physical market "cornered." It is what has, to quote Another, kept the gold market "bought up" ever since WWII. It is the ever-present tension that threatens to start a phase transition to a much higher price, but it is not sufficient for projecting what gold's true value is. For that we need some of Another's "inside assumptions," which brings me to the second concept I want to discuss.

Let's call this second concept "the Western lottery winner concept". I project a 40X revaluation which means a large windfall for those who hold physical gold through the transition. The naysayers often argue that, even if such a revaluation happened, it couldn't stick because the gold holders would act like lottery winners, try to sell their gold to lock in their windfall, and the price would crash.

There are a few things to mention here. The first is that most of these naysayers are projecting their own Western trader mindset onto those who have bought up 108,000 tonnes of gold while the real price of gold (the GOR) went nowhere. And also, most of the naysayers have very little physical gold themselves, for the very reason that the nominal price (all they really care about) has been going nowhere for a couple of years now.

The Western lottery winner is a gambler, and has become a caricature of the Western trader mindset that is always looking for the next lucky score. The issue with lottery winners is that they usually overdo it, blowing their winnings in short order by suddenly "living large." There will clearly be a "wealth effect" for those who suddenly find their long term savings are 40 times more valuable than they thought, but that doesn't mean they will behave like Western lottery winners, Western traders, or even Westerners in general who, on the whole, seem to prefer living large over saving for the future.

These people who bought all of the new gold for the last 60+ years already view physical gold as the only real (store-of-value) money, so as far as "locking in their windfall" goes, it's already locked in with what they already have. So the question for them, since they are savers and not traders, is not "what other asset should I buy with my gold to lock in my windfall?" Instead, the question will be whether to keep it locked in (in gold) or to unlock some of it and start consuming more than before.

The "wealth effect" means that they will feel more wealthy. But whereas lottery winners often have a hard time keeping their windfall for the rest of their own lives, let alone passing it on to future generations, I think that it is much more likely that the vast majority of today's gold holders will strike a more careful balance between living large now versus allowing their newfound wealth to become intergenerational, even if on a small scale. That's the beauty of gold. It is naturally intergenerational wealth.

"I ask you now: " Is it hard to believe or hard to understand"? When it comes to money it's usually both.

Know this: "gold transcends human valuations thru time and life". . Take your time on this one!"


The point here is that of course many shrimps and "third world nobodies" will sell some gold given the obvious wealth effect that a 40X revaluation will bring, but not "to lock in their profit" as is the way of the Western trader. Instead, they will sell slowly in order to unlock some of that purchasing power and improve their lifestyle, though not quite as rapidly as a first round draft pick in the NFL.

Giants won't do this, simply because they have no need for improvement in their lifestyle. Neither will they "trade out" of gold to lock in their profit. If anything, I think they will trade more of their wealth into gold, because now, for the first time in history, they will be able to do so in any proportion they desire. Think of all the fine art just sitting in wooden crates in expensive Freeport vaults, some of which is simply uninsurable and always vulnerable to fire. Would it not be better to slowly move some of that unseen wealth into a more efficient and durable form?

You see, what Freegold represents is the consolidation of a two tier market into one, for the first time since antiquity. Picture it as the removal of a divider, or the dissolving of the membrane that separates the two markets. The true value of gold that comes from the way Giants have used it for centuries will flow into the open market, but the value added to the whole will be a two way flow. It will truly be phase transition of epic proportions, like a fusion that puts out more than went in.

Because of the fusion of these two markets, both Giants and shrimps will benefit, and the added value of this benefit will go into gold. A Giant who wants to buy gold will, for the first time, have unlimited access to the open market to move any proportion of his wealth into gold, whereas in the past he could only do so through other Giants who already had large hoards. And a Giant who needs to sell will, for the first time, have an entire planet of savers as his counterparty, not just the limited pool of other Giants.

Giants in aggregate, both new money and old, are in a state of perpetual accumulation when viewed as a whole. Ordinary savers, on the other hand, tend to accumulate (save) during their productive years and then live off those savings in retirement, passing whatever is left over on to the next generation. So ordinary savers have each other as their counterparty when viewed as a whole. But if we combine the two, Giants and ordinary savers, we should find a much larger whole that is, in aggregate, in a state of perpetual accumulation. See?

The icing on the cake is that the phase transition will introduce a whole new group of savers to gold, all of whom are still in the accumulation phase of their lives. They, along with the Giants, will more than offset any short term post-reval "Western lottery winner" behavior.

It matters not how much gold there is in the world today, because it is all already owned by someone who likes physical gold, just like it will be after revaluation. It's not like it's a product piling up on store shelves, waiting to sell, which suddenly becomes 40 times more expensive. The product has already sold out. It's its resale price that will change.

People often ask how I came up with my $55K gold projection back in 2009. Now I will tell you. It was the result of working with inside assumptions and extrapolating them to the outside. One assumption I have carried since the beginning was that Another knew what he was talking about from personal experience. My second assumption, which is a corollary to the first, is that whenever Another mentioned specifics, he wasn't just being pretentious and pulling them out of his backside. Rather, he was actually revealing valuable insider assumptions.

My price projection is an amalgamation of Another's occasional specificity. It was never about the currency price. It was always about the revaluation multiple in real terms. Gaze in wonder and reflect upon my two FFPPDC's from way back in 2009:


In 1998, Another praised a post by "Allen (USA)" which Allen wrote using assumptions previously mentioned by Another. Allen's GOR of 1,000:1 came from this earlier statement by Another: "If Arabia says, "I will sell oil for $10US a barrel or in gold valued at $10,000" what do you think would happen?"

Allen's post mentioned a revaluation multiple of 67X, gold at $20,000/oz. and oil at 1,000 bbls/ounce. For comparison, I'm currently using a more conservative revaluation multiple of 40X, gold at $55,000 and oil at 550+ bbls/ounce. I decided to use 1,000 bbls/oz. as the high end of the spectrum in my oil FFPPDC, and an order of magnitude lower as the low end.

Another did say, a few times, that the 2nd tier price of gold was $6,000 at the time that paper gold was trading for $300, a 20X differential. He also clearly stated once, and often implied, that $6,000 (aka 20X) was the low end of possible revaluation prices. He wrote: "The $6,000 valuation of gold can only be true if currency deflation destroys enough dollars to bring it down to that range."

Another (and FOA who was writing on his behalf) mentioned $6,000/oz., implying that it was the 2nd tier price at that time, 14 times. Meanwhile, the number $10,000/oz. was mentioned 43 times, and $30,000/oz. was mentioned 55 times. This gave me an anticipated revaluation that ranged from 33X to 100X in nominal terms. Being overly conservative, I decided to use Another's low end ($10,000) nominally and his high end in real terms, giving me a wide range. Working with $1,000 gold in late 2009, $10,000 was 10X, which was safely under Another's extreme low end of 20X. And $100,000 at the high end, or 100X, fit nicely with oil at $100/bbl. giving me the same high end as the oil FFPPDC.

So, coming directly from Another, we have revaluation multiples of 20X, 33X and 100X, with 20X clearly indicated as the low end. For oil, we only have limited mentions of 1,000 bbls/oz. which corresponded to a 67X revaluation for gold. But Another also said that, after revaluation, oil would be relatively "cheaper" for those who had gold, implying that gold's revaluation multiple against oil would be higher than it would be in absolute real (non-oil) terms. This told me that my target was probably somewhere between 33X and 67X.

My primary assumption was that Another had a reason for the specifics he shared and repeated so many times. I think that the reason he used specific numbers repeatedly is because they were the assumptions being used by those who were in the best position to make such projections. So I figured that a probability curve which encompassed his high and low end projections would give me a reasonable estimate based on true insider assumptions.

Obviously I wanted to be conservative in my estimate, so I used his highs as the absolute while stretching the low end well beyond his lows, knowing that my curve would give them extremely low probabilities anyway. If I rerun the numbers today, using my same conservative range, the projected price is $73,000. If I disregard the conservative end of the spectrum and simply go with Another's range, it comes out to $80,000. Those numbers represent 55X and 60X revaluation multiples respectively.

Upon further reflection, I still like $55K as it now represents about a 40X reval, which is why I have never revised those images. I hope I am low, but 40X is nice and clean because it represents a simple doubling of gold's true value to the Giants in the 2nd tier market that exists within this extrapolation.

In any case, both 40X and 55X lie comfortably within my target range of 33X-67X, with 50X being the dead center. Remember that it's not about the currency price, but simply about the revaluation multiple. In oil terms, the price of gold has hardly changed since WWII. The GOR hovered around 15 when Another was writing. Today it is 13, and historically (over the last 65 years) it has averaged around 14.5.

That's all $55K ever was, an extrapolation from an amalgamation of Another's Thoughts. And the probability curves were simply my way of expressing how I view it as a range of probabilities rather than a specific prediction. Thinking like a Giant can be fun when you really put your mind to it. And it makes me want to buy some more gold right now!
____________________________

So here's my extrapolation using "inside assumptions" provided by Another (and a little common sense) in a nutshell:

Physical gold's true value is 20 times higher than its open market price and has been for centuries. The reason for this "two-tier" gold market was neither nefarious price suppression nor "cloak and dagger" secrecy. It's just the way it was. It's just the way gold's usage developed and matured over time.

The two tiers are soon to be united as one and that will mean a doubling of gold's true value which equates to a 40X revaluation relative to the open market price today. Love it or hate it, it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

Freegold will, for the first time since antiquity, combine the shrimp and Giant gold markets into one single market. The benefit/windfall for shrimps versus Giants will be totally different.

A much higher value of gold already exists for true Giants, so they will not gain as much value from the revaluation. Only the shrimp side of the market will gain windfall-sized value. The value gain for the shrimps flows from the way the Giants have always valued their gold (that is, market-busting sizes of gold hoards) at multiples of the market price.

What Another wrote about Giants trading gold *IN SIZE* at multiples of the market price should be taken quite literally, and it goes back centuries.

The bottom line is that Freegold represents shrimps receiving the flow of a much higher value from the Giants and the way they use gold. The Giants won't gain as much value, but they will gain the ability to store as much of their wealth in gold as they want to at any given time, something that has been difficult if not impossible for centuries.

The Giants will gain some value in their gold holdings, though, because they will have the entire world of savers as the counterparty to the gold portion of their wealth rather than just the very limited pool of other Giants. Compare that to a CĂ©zanne or a Koons Balloon Dog. Only other Giants are their future counterparty for those. Part of being a Giant is that you never actually need to dishoard. You only ever need to acquire more solid wealth because the only alternatives are to either give it away or stop net-producing. As a Giant, you aren't saving for retirement like the rest of us. You are either net-producing or not, and if you are, then you are either buying wealth items with your surplus or you are giving it away.

Yet if misfortune befalls you and you do need to dishoard in a hurry, then you'll not get full value for your wealth simply because you have so much of it. That's just part of being a Giant. So the high value for Giant hoards of gold comes from the buy side (Giants wanting to buy large hoards must approach other Giants who already have large hoards) and not from the sell side. Giant sellers only sell because an offer was made at the proper multiple of the shrimp market price, not because they need to sell.

But Freegold will make it more likely that a Giant who falls on hard times will be able to dishoard more rapidly without losing value than he would have been able to in the past. In the past, the true value of gold for the Giants came from their ability to retain it even through revolutions (like the French Revolution) and wars (like WWII) when everything else they had was easy pickins for the uprising masses. You can bury gold, but castles and art can be destroyed, and land and businesses can be taken away by the government with the stroke of a pen, something that happened to GdR in 1940 and again in 1981.

This two tier market structure has been around for a long time, but it has always suffered from the frequent need for emergency supplemental supply in the discount portion of the market, supply that must come from the properly valued side, one way or another. We've seen this dynamic in action at least half a dozen times over the last 200 years. We know where we have been, and now, perhaps, working with inside assumptions and extrapolating them to the outside, we know where we are going.

"If you are searching for facts you will find them, but the items you find will not be true! Did you think that the high powered world of the LBMA would operate in a fishbowl for all to see? We cannot take what is on the outside as evidence for what is on the inside. To find the answer, work with inside assumptions and extrapolate them to the outside!"

I recommend rereading ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) from the beginning after you finish this post. I think you may see everything in there in a different light this time, whether it's your first time or your fifth, as long as you remember to think like a Giant!

____________________________

In keeping with the theme, I thought I'd conclude this post with "Much Ado About Money", chapter 1 in Guy de Rothschild's 1983 memoirs, "The Whims of Fortune"…



Everyone has some; no one has enough. People despise it when they lack it, yet they welcome it with open arms. Reluctant to discuss it, they think about it constantly. Lifeblood of the economy, source of all activity, key to success, symbol of strength, it is the essence of power. It cures, it destroys, it saves, it kills, it is idle, it circulates, it fertilizes, it vanishes, it corrupts, it grows, it changes hands. It is fairly—or unjustly—earned. It is used, dreamed of, hidden, shown off, squandered, scorned, worshipped. Hoarded, it is a treasure—only to become sterile. It is reviled, repudiated, coveted. People invest it with their own intimate feelings: their rivalries, triumphs, frustrations, ambitions, resentments. At night it grows into something living, overpowering, enlightening, protective, crushing. It is a phantasmagorical god whom we both pray to and dread. It is the scapegoat for our misfortunes. Created as a convenience, it is burdened with our emotions; it is a means, but it has become an end.

What has not been said about money? What has not been attempted by politicians to tame it? Taking equality for justice, the socialists want to ration it and try, without much success, to reduce its power. Liberals, more realistically, want to use its potential as an incentive. Yet both seek the well-being, the security and happiness, of mankind.

How amazed I was when the newly elected French prime minister Pierre Mauroy, addressing Parliament in 1981, criticized the leaders of “big business” for endeavoring to make their companies earn money, which is precisely what the heads of firms are meant to do and what they are paid for! If the managers of Air France, Renault, the big banks, and the nationalized companies heed these remarks and ignore their balance sheets, the French, who will have to foot the bill, will hardly look favorably on Mr. Mauroy’s angelic idealism. Because those who do not gain, lose—and most often lose heavily.

The socialists dream of abolishing capitalism but they can’t, for since the Marxist mirage has vanished, there is nothing to put in its place. If they were fair, they’d accept the rules of the game, and as long as people are allowed to make money, they would refrain from denouncing those who succeed. Everyone wants to be better off: The minimum-wage-earner wants to make more, and so do those who earn twice his salary. So why in the world brand someone who is paid four times the minimum a “sordid materialist” the minute he wants to make six times the minimum? There will always be someone poorer than oneself, and there will always be someone richer. Admittedly, there is an intolerable discrepancy between those who can afford more than essential needs and those who fall below the level of survival; but this contrast appears mostly between industrial societies and those of the Third World, rather than within Western nations. Making money doesn’t oblige one to forfeit his honor or conscience.

In France, of course, money has never been honorable, except perhaps during the nineteenth century. The Church put it on the Index in medieval times, and ever since the age of industrialism, socialists and Marxists have held it responsible for every evil. It is a foregone conclusion that money will always remain impure.

And yet, how herculean the efforts to acquire it! The French—whether hypocritical or irrational, it doesn’t matter—have no trouble in getting around the contradiction: They simply cherish their own possessions while condemning everyone else’s. Among all peoples, their love of money is doubtless the keenest, as every Frenchman suspects every other of being motivated by selfish, materialistic considerations. Property, savings, and inheritance are sacred; money and finance are suspect. The French cling to the pathological distinction they make between their own little nest eggs and anonymous riches labeled “finance.” This fantasy provides an excuse for the inventors of the wealth tax, euphemistically referred to as the “tax on large fortunes,” levied on an aggregate of static property, impossible for the most part to divide or liquidate; whereas only those profits earned through the dynamic flux of the country’s economy qualify for annual withholding.

In the final analysis, societies, like individuals, involve their whole nature in their relationship with money. The rich are regarded with ambivalence. Less affluent people want a kind of paternal protection from them, and simultaneously envy and reject them. People expect the rich to feel superior, and then revolt against this imaginary humiliation. No one sees the rich as brothers. They are regarded as members of another species; money isolates them. In their own eyes, however, the advantages money brings them are too easy; the wealthy value only what they earn by personal merit.

Mere mortals made of blood, flesh, and bone, the Rothschilds from birth symbolize money and everything it represents: luxury, fame, power. And should any one of them be so ill advised as to boast about it, he would immediately be as unpopular as he is well known. It’s hardly their fault if, among the many “wealthy few,” they are singled out as a showpiece. What little prestige they might have gained from their relationships with statesmen like Rene Mayer, and particularly Georges Pompidou, was entirely fortuitous, as the Rothschilds knew these men before they became public figures. Any analogy that might be drawn between those friendships and the special relationships the Rothschilds enjoyed in the nineteenth century with Europe’s leaders would be quite mistaken. A temporary illusion appeared, however, for a moment to revive a legend from the past. And it is one of life’s fatal ironies that shortly thereafter the Rothschild Bank was nationalized, thus sweeping away what had been for two centuries their professional identity.

Seen close up, the Rothschilds are decent people. They fulfill their obligations discreetly and without arrogance. They are referred to as "the Rothschilds"; it is only collectively that they are a symbol. Condemned to solidarity by ancestors who chose Concordia, Integritas, Industrie as the family motto, they are forever worrying that one of their own will damage the family reputation, each member regarding the shortcomings of the others without indulgence. Among themselves, of course, they are equals, like Roman citizens, for the similarity of their fates erases any individual differences. The inevitable disagreements usually end with everyone sitting down to a meal prepared with infinite care, out of mutual affection as much as culinary competition.

I have no idea what a poor Rothschild would look like. I suppose he would vanish in anonymity. In the meantime, precious few of them are driven by a money-making obsession or by and urge to rebuild a fortune comparable to that of their ancestors. They tend to make the best of what they have (and now and then a little more), each according to his particular tastes. Their styles of living, however, as well as their choice of homes and art, are remarkably similar. The emphasis put on beauty, the importance given to the quality, to elegant hospitality, are characteristic of a family tradition that gives precedence to refinement over luxury. How long can this last? It doesn't seem to go with the trend of history.

As far as I'm concerned, life may have spoiled me in many ways, but I have never forgotten the restrictions and humiliations suffered by my ancestors, who knew only hard, obsessive work. This memory has helped me face situations in which I saw how easily I could lose material security as well as the social pride generations have acquired.

Bathed from childhood in the embarrassing limelight of celebrity, the Rothschilds can hardly avoid a certain narcissism, which prompts them to justify by their behavior a reputation they would like to deserve. Some may even secretly fear they are not quite up to it. But when all is said and done, conscious of the favors heaven has bestowed upon them, they gallantly bear a symbolic name, accepting with good heart the whims of fortune.

Sincerely,
FOFOA



754 comments:

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Phat Repat said...

As long as they can print, or coerce others, how can they lose control of the bond markets? It's something to watch, and profit from both ways (TLT for me), but don't believe that will be the canary anymore.

Nope, starting to believe it will be sudden and devastating given all the attempts to 'manage' the outcome. Unintended consequences and all that.

Jeff said...

FOFOA: Where the rubber meets the road, in my opinion, is not anywhere inside the monetary plane. Instead, it is where the monetary plane intersects the physical plane, and that is in prices, the prices of real physical things, the price of physical gold and the price of (primarily imported) necessities. That's where I expect to see the break, in one of those two places: the LBMA or a real price jump in necessities. Whichever one comes first, I think it will quickly cause the second one to follow.

What that means, practically, is that either physical gold goes into hiding first, or there's a sudden devaluation of the dollar against the physical plane, meaning necessities, especially those necessities needed by the USG which must be imported. When that happens, the USG will print whatever is needed to keep its imported necessities flowing in under the aegis of national defense. Actual hyperinflation will follow.

Phat Repat said...

Okay Jeff, thanks for the tickler. I don't recall, but did FOFOA, et al, identify what those imported necessities might be?

tEON said...

real price jump in necessities

Thanks Jeff,
I thought of that quote when I heard THIS - on the radio this morning.
Postage stamps for National delivery within Canada are going from, the present, $0.63 to $0.84 as March 31st, 2014.

Edwardo said...

It's not about losing control of bonds or currency as such. It is about the effects on the physical plane and physical gold as rates ratchet higher, which they have already started to do.

Recall that the mere talk of tapering sent rates dramatically higher across the curve last summer and into early fall. Since then, as Old Yellen and The Fed have continued to taper, the rise in yields has consolidated, but the short end of the curve, defined here as the 2 and 5 year, is now threatening to ratchet higher yet again. As Joe Louis said about Billy Conn, "He can run, but he can't hide." That is exactly the predicament that the U.S. monetary authorities find themselves in. They have a fair amount of maneuvering room, but, the ring is destined to be cut off.

FYI, despite being knocked down by the skillful and fleet of foot Billy Conn, Joe Louis absorbed the challenger's best, caught up to him in the thirteenth round and knocked him out.

If The Fed continues to taper, which they seem intent on doing, rates will go to levels that will, in relatively short order, cause the simmering U.S. sovereign debt crisis to head towards a full boil as the debt load becomes thoroughly and manifestly unmanageable. This, in my view, may not be precisely where the rubber hits the road, but it's a key precursor to it.

My own view, which is more or less the consensus around here, is that tapering will, ultimately, be halted, and subsequently reversed. Those who didn't see the writing on the wall beforehand who are playing in the great global financial and monetary sandbox, will no longer somehow manage to fail to spot the garish and immense neon sign that says, "Get the $^#%@ out!"

It will, for most, and by then, be too late.

P.S. If, for some reason, The Fed decides not to reverse course and "save the debt", one or more of the following things will happen not listed in any sort of order.

A.) The Federal Legislature will find new Fed managers to do Uncle's bidding
B.) The Fed's tent will be folded up
C.) The denouement of the present system will wrap up that much faster

Andrew said...

What if the tapering continues as currently scheduled and interest rates don't move much from where they are now?

Phat Repat said...

Okay, as to necessities (though not clearly spelled out), there are two posts for further investigation:

1. Advance Warning which references,
2. Ball of Twine Open Forum

And, a source for trade: Top Ten Countries with which the US trades

Edwardo said...

Then reaching full boil will take longer than it would otherwise.

Michael dV said...

Andrew
It seems to me that the Fed is also using obscured techniques for managing perception. They enter the derivatives market and influence rates by mechanisms I don't understand and about which I have never seen an adequate explanation. I think it amounts to a bribe to keep rates low but I don't really know.
Maybe it is taper schmaper, who needs taper....
Since they seems to have and use other mechanisms than outright purchases of bonds to get the job done I think we may not be able to see problems coming.
Sure we assume that this war will be fought like the last one but it probably won't be. We could wake up one morning and find out we already surrendered.
I have given up on reading the tea leaves of the economy because nothing that should be a reliable indicator works anymore. We live in an economy which is controlled by unseen forces which could succeed for a while but fail at any time.
Maybe we will see rising prices but maybe giants will panic and all we get is some kind of announcement.
A mans gotta know his limitations and this seems to be one of mine.

Sam said...

I look at the price action of gold this way. First off it is currently classified and traded as a commodity and moves as such. To isolate gold whilst all other commodities were also rising and falling doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. However there were some notable movements in the “gold only” department.
Pre Euro (pre-2001) – gold kept at production cost to support a strong dollar
Post Euro 2001-2012 – $ battle with gold is abandoned. Gold is allowed to rise above production cost. Primary benefits of a higher and higher gold price are increased mining exploration and viable projects, scrap sales, and making the remaining physical supply last longer. A secondary benefit was the opportunity for the Euro to show off its mark to market system. It was an advertisement of sorts, to the international elites of the world, that they would treat gold unlike any government ever has in the history of the modern world.
Post support (currently) – paper gold market no longer supported. Gold price quickly plunged back to production cost where it is lingering. It may be kept there for a bit to soak out the last bit of cheap gold from ramped up desperate mines. I then suspect it will plunge well below the cost of production so that the majority of the remaining paper gold contracts held by non-essential people can be settled quiet cheaply.

M said...

@ Edwardo

"Recall that the mere talk of tapering sent rates dramatically higher across the curve last summer and into early fall. "

Yeah sort of. But in the end, nothing happened with that rate spike last year and its been in its usual range since.

The Fed is so far away from a real positive return that they can taper and even raise rates without having a negative effect on the phony economy. And this could turn into another self fulfilling prophecy. Because it will look like the Fed is taking away the punchbowl and people will believe it. Imagine how useless gold will look then.. This is why I think rates fell amid the taper in the first place.

With everything based on behavioral economics and everyone willing to jump on hand grenades (Belgium)for the unipolar American world order, this could go on forever.



Aaron said...

M said...

"this could go on forever."

I'm not so sure, M. You're looking at interest rates. I'm expecting a rift where the rubber meets the road. Inflation on consumer goods or a lock up in the physical gold market.

Is your "forever" based on something more than interest rates?

Anonymous said...

@MdV

I'm hoping all the anti-constitutional stuff is merely the last gasp of a dying regime. Hitler type shit requires a LOT more public enthusiasm behind t that the government has now.

The fact is that democracy itself is in diametric opposition to the principles outlined in the constitution. The majority of United States citizens do not value the ideals set forth in the constitution and they never did. Or, if they do value them, they value their own self-interest above those ideals and will sacrifice those ideals as soon as it is convenient to further their own self-interests. In democracy, the will of the people always trumps over the constitution, and that is why we are in this wretched state.

The only chance of existing in a society that consistently values the ideals set forth in the constitution (or any higher ideals) is an undemocratic society. The will of the people is base, degenerate, and redistributive - always. We had greater freedom and were subject to less taxation under King George than we are today. The American republic is a failure, and many men who are now dead predicted this exact outcome. De Tocqueville noted the existence of what we now term "political correctness" when he wrote about it in the early 1800's - the same moaning about "equality" was as present then as it is today. Under the tyranny of democracy, under mob rule, we cannot give credence to any natural inequalities.

Macaulay was prophetic about the future of America, he wrote:

I seriously apprehend that you will, in some such season of adversity as I have described, do things which will prevent prosperity from returning; that you will act like people would, in a year of scarcity, devour all the seed-corn, and thus make the next year, a year not of scarcity, but of absolute famine. There will be, I fear, spoliation. The spoliation will increase the distress. The distress will produce fresh spoliation. There is nothing to stay you. Your Constitution is all sail and no anchor. As I said before, when a society has entered on this downward progress, either civilization or liberty must perish. Either some Caesar or Napoleon will seize the reins of government with a strong hand; or your Republic will be as fearfully plundered and laid waste by barbarians in the twentieth century as the Roman Empire was in the fifth; with this difference, that the Huns and Vandals, who ravaged the Roman Empire, came from without, and that your Huns and Vandals will have been engendered within your country by your own institutions.

Anonymous said...

P.S. Hat tip to DP, who pointed me to Macaulay's piece a while ago.

Michael dV said...

Poopyj
plunder it is then...I can swing that way too. I'm a fair guy, just tell me the rules of the game and let's play. (not promising I'll play fair either)

Edwardo said...

M wrote:

Yeah, sort of

The ten year was trading at 1.5 percent in May of last year.
Four months later it was trading at 3 percent. The moves in the shorter durations were even more dramatic. That's not the definition of sort of. In the meantime, the national debt is now 4.5 trillion above where it was in 2010 but the interest payments are approximately the same. To put things in even more perspective it's been less than a year since (what is looking more and more like) a secular turn in rates.

All this by way of saying that it will take a bit more time before we see the financial equivalent of cats mating with dogs.

Sam said...

For me, A large part of the appeal of Another and FOA’s writings were that they focused on what is, rather than what ought to be. Whether the mob rules or the mob is ruled the mob will eventually get their way. The former is a slow and gradual march away from high ideals and the latter is a briefly contained level of high ideals followed by a large blow off. Only the levels of bloodshed seem to vary. The who, what, and why is debatable, and maybe with enough education and advocacy the human cycle can be altered….I don’t remember where I read it but FOA described it like a river. It’s either flowing along or if there is a blockage it builds up until it overwhelms the blockage and keeps flowing

Michael dV said...

Freegold itself holds some promise for a change in human behavior. We can change the genes but if the savings vehicle is secure it could halt the easy stripping of wealth from obvious targets like the Rothschild family.
I'm sure the 'hungry collective' will immediately seek ways to get it's hands on free stuff but maybe there will be ways for the clever and quiet to keep what they have earned...hope so.

Edwardo said...

The Fed isn't actually tapering except nominally. It certainly explains the difference in behavior between the long dated stuff and the short dated stuff. I hasten to add that while this maneuvering may be helping commercial banks and the share market, it isn't going to stop the onset of the U.S. sovereign debt debacle and all that comes from it.

M said...

@ Edwardo


"The ten year was trading at 1.5 percent in May of last year.
Four months later it was trading at 3 percent. The moves in the shorter durations were even more dramatic. That's not the definition of sort of. "

I said sort of because the rate is still hugely negative. Inflation is higher then the govt says it is. Lets say inflation is around 8%. Then the jump in rates only really means that real rates went from negative 6.5% to negative 5%. Still a gusher of printing that the phony economy seems to be able to live on. The US govt doesn't worry about paying for things via borrowing at interest. They pay for things by keeping the dollar strong and printing it.

How come there wasn't some noticeable weakness in the USD relative to everything else when these rates went up ?

michael3c2000 said...

Dear Mr. Banker Blanker: I know you're getting tired of the trillions in interest rate and currency swap derivatives, contracts and swaps out there.
Why not go out and get some fresh air?
Clear your heads before things come to a head?
Before you're all wishing you had head to the hills, not Capital Hill, before you're over the hill?
Why not join "hundreds of thousands" already making the grade, real unencumbered gold, free of high strung, high stakes claims and counterclaims:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/03/prweb11694637.htm
GPAA: Gold Prospectors to Host Gold and Treasure Expo in Las Vegas April 26-27
Gold Prospectors Association of America: The GPAA will hold its Gold and Treasure Expo in Las Vegas, Nev. at the South Point Hotel & Casino April 26-27. Learn how to mine and pan for real gold from experienced gold prospectors at this event, which is open to the public.
GPAA Gold and Treasure Expo attendees learn to pan for real gold!

The GPAA has brought back the Alaska Gold Expedition giveaways in 2014 — two at each expo. Each trip is good for one person for two weeks and includes airfare to Nome, Alaska.

Las Vegas, Nevada (PRWEB) March 29, 2014 "

michael3c2000 said...

Another short snippit from the prweb link:

"Besides the fun factor, the purpose of the expos is to remind everyone that gold prospecting and small-scale mining are still a way of life for hundreds of thousands of people across the country and an important part of American culture, history and the economy.

Gold prospecting has become increasingly popular in the last few years with spiking gold prices and a struggling economy. The growing interest in gold is reflected in not only the longest-airing prospecting TV show “Gold Fever,” hosted by GPAA owner Tom Massie, but several new gold mining reality TV shows..."

Edwardo said...

M wrote:

I said sort of because the rate is still hugely negative. Inflation is higher then the govt says it is.

They U.S. Government has been under reporting the ever higher cost of living for a very long time, but thanks for clarifying your remark.

till a gusher of printing that the phony economy seems to be able to live on.

I think that where the U.S. cheese doodle economy is concerned the operative word is seems since a cursory look under the hood shows that the U.S. economy is struggling mightily just maintain an upright posture.

The US govt doesn't worry about paying for things via borrowing at interest. They pay for things by keeping the dollar strong and printing it.

The game has been, print currency and have a big bond market to soak up the inflation, but, if the U.S. wasn't able to operate along the following lines: "I will gladly pay you next Tuesday for a double cheeseburger, fries, and a shake today" well, let's just say that The Federal Government would have been cut down to size a long time ago. I hasten to add (again) that the process by which the ROW is saying nyet to the "Pay us next week for dinner today" arrangement is well underway-see The Euro, and the proliferating like mushrooms after a rainstorm currency swap agreements- even though we haven't yet seen the noticeable weakness in the USDr

Woland said...

Readers of the FOFOA blog are familiar with a term, $IMFS,
but in fact, it is a composite, of $, and IMFS. To be sure, as
a result of the Breton Woods Agreement which established
the IMF, the two were inextricably linked via the dollar as the
principal reserve asset. It was very much hoped, at the time,
that the "rival" BIS would soon die of irrelevance. (see the
monumental, "The Battle of Breton Woods" by Benn Steil)

While the eventual fate of the dollar is viewed as the principal CAUSE of the advent of Freegold, the "trigger" which will precipitate the crisis is unknown. One of the possible triggers
is a breakdown in the second part of $IMFS,the IMF. So,with
all that verbiage as a prelude, I would suggest taking a look
at an article at the Peterson Institute for International
Economics, by Edwin Truman, entitled, "IMF Reform is
Waiting for the United States". This is a great "nuts and
bolts" paper, and Truman, who for 21 years was Director of
International Finance of the Board of Governors of the Federal
Reserve System, knows as much about the inner workings of
the present financial system as any living American.

(see my "FOMC meets the Keystone Cops" comment if you
doubt it) cheers.

Indenture said...

IMF Reform Is Waiting On The United States

Edwardo said...

According to Edwin Truman, it would seem that the IMF is in the midst of a crisis for which the United States is primarily responsible. Bearing in mind that skillful political actors never let a crisis go to waste, how, one wonders, will this simmering crisis be resolved?

The manner of possible resolutions would seem (to me)
to be as follows:

1.) The U.S. ratifies, toute suite, the Code of Reforms and power within the IMF is subsequently redistributed to producer nations heretofore relegated to less influential status.

2.) The U.S, by hook and by crook, continues to avoid ratification, and, as a result, the IMF faces an existential crisis since the other members can not move forward in the absence of the U.S. either leaving the IMF, or signing off on the Code of Reforms. Clearly, in the opinion of Mr. Truman, the present state of limbo is both untenable and damaging to the U.S. position going forward.

At no point does the author of the paper suggest that the dissolution of The IMF is even a possibility, but, given the overall tone of the paper, the idea of dissolution exists, at the very least, as something of a faint undercurrent.

Stay Tuned:

Motley Fool said...

Err Woland

I'm pretty sure the $IMFS is shorthand for the Dollar international monetary system, whereas the IMF is the international monetary fund.

Now while there are linkages between these, I am sure the $IMFS doesn't specifically refer to the IMF in any way shape or form.

TF

Motley Fool said...

lets make that Dollar International Money and Financial System.

Stupid hasty typing. haha.

Woland said...

Hi Motley;

Perhaps I have erred, but I would say in my defense that what
you have noted constitutes a distinction without a difference.
The IMF is the "institution" par excellence by which the U.S.
global financial hegemony/dominance has been perpetuated
since its inception in 1944, even allowing for the crises from
1968 to 1980. The Truman article is about the risks to the US
of its demise (independent of the dollar's fatal flaws) and is,
IMHO, worth a look. Hope that doesn't sound too defensive,
'cause I'm never wedded to my mistakes. Cheers.

Sam said...

It will be interesting to see if this "no-brainer" issue is being stalled by a split congress for political concessions in the 11th hour or if it's a case of debt ceiling style ignorance

Michael dV said...

Woland
unlike you I did wedded my mistakes...cost me plenty too...

DP said...

+1 for ignorance.

Woland said...

GENIUS_____________________IGNORANCE

…..0……………………………………….III……..

remember, every vote counts!

Roacheforque said...

The Truman paper seems to me an odd mixture of incompatibilties. First, the Peterson Institute has always appeared to be something of a neo-con think tank, at least in their recommendations to the CBO (back when prior debt cielings were under the public spotlight). So I can understand the call for political action to restore the credibility of the U.S. position.

But a key underlying assumption of the IMF may also be under scrutiny, in light of current events:
The SDR is an international reserve asset, first created by the IMF in 1969 to supplement its member countries’ official reserves. It is used to denominate IMF accounts. (an actual footnote definition of the SDR).

It would seem to me that part of the SDR's development in 1969 (a good many years after 1944, BTW) was part of an ongoing IMF "evolution" which may at that time have been viewed as a necessary development in light of what also (at that time) may have been seen as a foregone conclusion that the dollar's role in that regard was unsustainable.

And yet today, through years of use value and "suspension of fundamentals value" the so called "dollar trap" seems more resilient than ever.

So on the one hand, the US ratification "gridlock" (if that is what it truly is) could be viewed as a vote of no confidence by the U.S. in the IMF's direction not only in giving the G20 more credibility and influence, but also a vote of restored confidence in the dollar as a reserve asset.

I could be completely wrong, and the +1 for ignorance could be a much simpler explanation, but there seems to me to be more convoluted motives at hand. I'm just not sure which uterior layer is the prevailing opinion of US policy, or that it actually matters.

I do think that recent comments regarding the SDR, in light of the whole Rickards conversation, have bubbled up to the surface, with the recent G20 pronouncement, the Eurasion Union "movement" and similar geopolitical resource, energy, gold and military power shifts weighing in against the final outcome of a new $IMFS.

The whole meme of Obama "leading the way to progress" and congress delaying that progress is getting old. An odd position for the P.I. to take, yet what's one more executive order, especially one this far removed from public view?

Sorry to have provided nothing conclusive in these thoughts, just something to weigh in on as we try to make sense out of the bits and pieces of information that come to light, and the motives behind publishing them.

tEON said...

For those watching the pot - the daily, weekly and monthly financial propaganda can probably seem baffling but the direction of the world, and especially US economy, remains obviously negative - catastrophically negative. This is despite 'poetic license' in GAAP accounting, GDP, job-rate, inflation figures, quarterly sales results etc. The proficiency of the Central Planners can only sway those with a surface view, the impatient or those who prefer to bury their faces in the sand. Without referencing historical data ie. Kondratiev waves or 4th Turning - it is evident that mass sentiment remains incredibly negative across-the-board. Everyone knows individuals out of work, have shook their heads at price increases in food and energy - and generally people are becoming even more tentative about 'buying crap'. This dramatically effects an economy that relies almost exclusively on consumer spending for their economic growth. Those who are straying from the FG path now, probably don't have much of a hope of being stalwart about the philosophy long term and will, likely, dis-hoard during transition (at the wrong time). Yeah, it's tough - and it's going to get tougher. Everyone who looks deeper at the charade anticipates 'an end' sooner rather than later. And they could all be wrong - but if I was wagering (I'm not - nor have any need to), I'd bet 'anytime soon' rather than 'in 10 years'. A watched pot never boils. Save in physical gold and Live your life.

Anonymous said...

Save in physical gold, hedge with paper and Live your life. :-)

JJ said...


A few thoughts on multiples/premiums:

- I don't think that Giants always valued gold in the same multiples. Apologies if u don't find it interresting to explore, but I think it could be great fun to hear others thoughts on multiplies.

I think premiums are rather an ongoing floating valuation. In the 50s and 80s I think that it was relatively easier to accumulate tonnes (showing in smaller premiums) than say 70s or this millennium.

It is easier to accumulate when macro imbalances are not on everybodys agenda. The multiple should have been smaller these years.

This coming shift is in the open for all to see. Especially to all historians and everybody with a longer view, and the closer to the shift we get the closer to the (possible/probable) revaluationprice the giants value their wealth.

Interrelated to the above is also "A thousand hungry lions".
-When the public/lions hunt, it's wise for the prey to hide. And vice versa, when the lions rest - it is safer for smaller animals to hunt. Having a centennial view, should make Barrons stay close to the arena where future wealth is traded in times when the lions rest. And when the lions wake and ask for gold, the answer is "Oh, I sold it too soon" and all the time hiding the lump under their skin, or simply "what gold?". What I'm trying to formulate is that the premium/multiple is obviously different depending on accumulation possibilities.

The risk of being in the eye of the hungry lions IMO adds some of the premium/multiples. The metafor of the lions is IMO also applicable on CBs vs Barrons or criminals vs savers/stackers etc. Metafors are so much more accurate/true than simple words :-).

This brings us to multiples today. What do we know (think we know).

- "Gold will value all wealth" = $POG 45 000-50 000 (But it was said "in multiples" so 90 000+)

- $POG was around 300 when it was traded around 6000 = multiple of 20 = 26 000. I would think we are slightly worse off today regarding the finacial system than we were back then..,

- I think it was also said that gold would be valued to the number of claims and even though Comex is a side-show, that would lead to about about 110x1300=143000. Where is London?

- How much loan did IMF/USA grant Ukraine for their 33mt? Is it applicable?

Michael Martin said...

What is probably more telling of an imminent transition to FreeGold is that this month, March 2014, might be the first month since the inception of this blog where our gracious host has not no new post to share. :-)

Kidding aside, I'm with what SP posted in the previous comment's page:
I think I'm ready for freegold. I wasn't in 2009 and even a year ago probably wasn't. I would appreciate more time, but I don't really need it. In any event, it's going to be interesting.

Nickelsaver said...

MdV,

The day is still young!

Nickelsaver said...

Sorry. MM, not MdV

Edwardo said...

Paper gold has the distinct look of something that's fallen down and can't get (it) up. In this most recent decline, which has now erased half the gains from early January, the action has been "orderly", but, at some point, short of this doomed thing finding its legs, it's going to get disorderly. Here's to some serious paper gold market disorder coming to a theater near you.

Anonymous said...

Evidence, if it is needed, that the "taper" is all propaganda to support the illusion of dollar strength:

from Z/H:
"The last time banks scrambled to pad their books into the quarter end, and come begging at the front door of the NY Fed's Liberty 33 office, was on the last day of Q4 and 2013, when nearly $200 billion in Treasurys were handed out by the Fed to over 100 counterparties in what was the largest reverse repo operation conducted by Ben Bernanke, and his brand new Fixed-Rate Reverse Repo operation, in history.

That was the record until today, when just over an hour ago the Fed disclosed that as part of its most recent reverse repo operation, it had handed out to 93 dealer banks and other financial intermediaries, both foreign and domestic, some $242 billion in Treasurys in what is now the biggest reverse repo operation in history, a privilege for which the collateral-starved banks paid the Fed the king's ransom of 0.05% in annual interest, i.e., nothing.

. . . And in related news, one should consider that tomorrow - with their books well padded for the March 31 daily security "holdings" - the banks will almost certainly unwind over $100 billion if not more of today's reverse repo, an amount that is now equal to nearly two full months of QE. Where that money will go, only the (NY) Fed and a few bank CEOs know."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-31/242-billion-how-much-record-window-dressing-banks-got-today-thanks-fed



Motley Fool said...

Before we move on from this post I would like to spark some debate. :P

This post implies two things, or perhaps one thing, but I would like to split it up.

One, that giants have for a long time traded gold at many multiples of what it is traded now, and will continue doing so in future.

Two, that central banks do the same.

If we accept this as true then I wish to ask a simple question. Qui bono?

We assume that FreeGold will be implemented because it is to the benefit of giants.

However. If we assume the above to be true, then what benefit lies in them breaking the current two tiered market?

If they buy and sell at these inflated prices, then there is no price risk for these entities, nor any need for haste.

Post collapse of the current system, if say the ECB abandons MTM, and the rules of the game are rewritten, then we could simply have another hard or soft money system, while they continue trading at these multiples and operating outside of the system.

If we accept these premises then it seems freegold is irrelevant to the big players.

What incentive do giants have to let FreeGold manifest?

What say you? :)

TF

Aaron said...

Hi MF-

|> We assume that FreeGold will be implemented because it is to the benefit of giants.

|> What incentive do giants have to let FreeGold manifest?

I guess my perspective is a little different. I hadn't considered Freegold as something to be "implemented because it is to the benefit of giants." In my view, Freegold will be a result of what savers are/were willing to save in. Of course I realize you share the same view so I am in no way trying to be condescending, I'm simply trying to frame my answer in the best way I can.

I don't think Freegold is about benefiting giants. I think Freegold is about giants no longer seeing value in loaning out their gold while trying to retain that gold as a store of value. As such I agree with you that those swapping gold in the higher tier of a two-tier market could care less about Freegold prices.

That being said, I see the emergence of Freegold as the result of a long trend of giants withdrawing their willingness to loan their physical gold for a profit or said another way, their willingness to support a paper gold market. At some point after support is withdrawn, only scrap gold and weak hands are available to meet demand and after that supply is drawn down, you have a full blown physical gold market lock up followed by Freegold.

|> If we accept these premises then it seems freegold is irrelevant to the big players.

We are in complete agreement. Freegold is irrelevant to the big players, but with an increasing demand of physical buyers at the market price, if sellers become unwilling to part with gold at the upper tier price for sale at the lower tier price, that gig is up. The paper and physical markets must separate and not a single big player will have a say in the matter short of selling gold at a massive discount.

Michael dV said...

MF
You are leaving out a couple of assumptions: first we think the current price (in size) is between FG and current....so holders of gold will benefit with a reset (even giants have to like a reset like that. Second the problem isn't really that gold has 2 prices it is that it is treated as a commodity and not as a prized wealth asset. Giants need such a thing that is accepted and stable. Otherwise they run the risk that what we currently use (like bonds) will become worthless. The world needs FG not just giants. I think the more you have to hold and defend the better off you are in FG.
Nevertheless the Saudis don't FG anytime soon. I'm sure they have the staying power to be very patient. They don't appear to need pocket money in fact their problem is the way all that cash stacks up and overflows.
Wouldn't it be nice for them if a few bars of gold could hold the value that is now held in (the somewhat iffy) treasuries and other only semi-fungible things (like artwork)?

Edwardo said...

Aaron wrote:

Freegold will be a result of what savers are/were willing to save in.

I don't think Freegold will come about as a result of the choice "savers" make regarding which vehicle they choose to park their surplus in. That said, I admit that my disagreement, as you'll soon see, rests, to some degree, on semantics.

Those who are genuine savers have already made their choice. As gold is the savings vehicle par excellence, to be a saver is synonymous with stacking physical.

The rest of the world, that would be the majority of folks who reside west and north of Suez, aren't engaged in saving. They may think they are, but they aren't. Lamentably, by the time they realize what the act of saving one's surplus actually requires, it almost certainly be too late as the the would be savers will no longer be able to source physical gold and/or that which they would use to acquire it will be unacceptable in any amounts to those have physical for sale.

Please forgive me if I have misunderstand your position, Aaron, but in the event I haven't Freegold will not, in my view, be the result of an entire class of heretofore unwitting speculators becoming proper savers.

When you wrote the following...

I think Freegold is about giants no longer seeing value in loaning out their gold while trying to retain that gold as a store of value.

I think you more or less put your finger on the proximate catalyst for freegold which will be the process by which adequate flow is restored. When the physical flow reaches something like a nuclear criticality, the most powerful monetary institutions on the planet will be compelled to engage in extraordinary measures that, once enacted, will fully catapult the world's monetary system into a new realm. A paradigm shift which has been delayed for over a generation will then be fully realized.

In response to MF's assertion, I think the assumption where giants are concerned is this: Freegold can not transpire without their integral involvement though it is not enacted precisely for their benefit. That said, clearly giants will benefit since their products will no longer be at the mercy of a marketplace that is systematically distorted to a grotesque degree. That would be more than ample incentive to lend one's considerable efforts to the permanent instantiation of a single tier physical only market, but Freegold will not occur as a result of any such epiphany on the part of giants, but, more practically and prosaically, because the flow, the state of which Giant's have a great deal of say in, will, as a result of their actions, require intervention of a sort that irrevocably puts the global financial and monetary system on a new path.

Sam said...

What the world needs more than anything is stability. Then, in order to enjoy the benefits of trade, the world needs settlement. The world has chosen for quiet sometime to delay final settlement in order to preserve stability. Now the world finds itself unraveling under a broken, unsustainable, and unrepairable monetary system. Settlement was always unbalanced under this system but unlike the past we are reaching the point where further delay increases instability rather than preserving stability. Freegold was developed because it offers a sustainable mechanism for global settlement yet it may well be implemented in order to reassert global stability.

Max De Niro said...

What Giants want more than anything else is social stability. It is clear from Guy De Rothschild's book that it is social instability that is the greatest threat to Giant wealth. Politicians also want social stability above all else.

Europe has too much gold, the East has not enough.

The two-tiered gold system has gone on for a very long time and serves Giants well.

These three forces (primarily politically and socially driven) above will combine to extend the current system for between 20-50 years in my opinion.

Europe will start selling its physical. Paper gold will be managed in a trading range.

The can will be kicked.

Edwardo said...

With a nod towards Sam and his comments at 11:37 I'm going to bowdlerize Ben Franklin when I say that those who would
sacrifice

Edwardo said...

...final settlement for stability deserve (and will get) neither.

JJ said...

Giants get a SoV in a pump and dump world which gives peace of mind. They also geta jump in wealth since size trades between paper and FG.

I think rather both Asia and Oil want the current system to prevail as long as possible. They want more. It could also be self-feeding in the sense that the more Asia buys of todays supply, the less Oil can convert of their paper.

Motley Fool said...

Let me continue playing devils advocate. Haha.

Aaron

I agree with Edwardo. I would phrase it this way.

"In my view, Freegold will be a result of what savers are/were willing to save in."

Sure, but which savers. We constantly say here that the masses do not matter. The giants have already made a choice according to the assumptions above, and it is already functional for them. I do not think the sheeple will awaken to usher in FG.

" I see the emergence of Freegold as the result of a long trend of giants withdrawing their willingness to loan their physical gold for a profit"

My point here is taking the longer timeline into account, isn't this irrelevant. If this was in play with the gold exchange standard, and the gold standard, and so on before it, then the current paper market has little to do with it. This is a separate market postulated, outside the one we deal in.

Michael dv

"Giants need such a thing that is accepted and stable."

Isn't the argument that giants already have such a thing which is accepted (amongst themselves) and stable ( amongst themselves)?

And if we assume they hold a small percentage of their wealth in gold at current half elevated prices, then even at full pricing while losing value in their other assets, they do not gain anything, they at best stay roughly even.

Edwardo

"When the physical flow reaches something like a nuclear criticality, the most powerful monetary institutions on the planet will be compelled to engage in extraordinary measures that, once enacted, will fully catapult the world's monetary system into a new realm."

If we assume that the bulk of demand and holdings of physical is from giants, then they can simply manage this amongst themselves. Sure the current system will break, but why need they institute a free market pricing. They can simply set up another monetary system, as has been done in the past, while leaving their gold system in the shadows.

Furthermore, I think most giants benefit from current distortions in the marketplace, as they have the most power to influence and know about such distortions.

"What the world needs more than anything is stability. Then, in order to enjoy the benefits of trade, the world needs settlement."

Perhaps. But who is it that really needs settlement. I posit it is the giants, and that in a shadow gold system they already have such.

Max

Haha. I don't think the current system can be managed forward that long. Crash is inevitable for other reasons and factors methinks. I am simply pondering what happens after such.

TF

DP said...

"In my view, Freegold will be a result of what savers are/were willing to save in."

Giants happy to sell their reserve assets for market prices as long as they can also sell many more liabilities of the same (i.e.: "gold savers" are "willing to save in Giant liabilities"), while still being able to turn around and buy back from the market the assets from which they were previously parted?

The distinction between holding an asset or a liability is appreciated by Giants.

Max De Niro said...

So the giants simply need a floating physical price between themselves, and their part of the market will clear. One assumes that this is how it works, unless there is a secret central planning office for distribution of giant gold at secretly sanctioned giant prices - LOL. Giants don't need any gold from the other system - any amount of gold is fine in a system as it is infinitely divisible. CBs commit to supporting the paper gold market - all's well. To do so would be a political decision - taken to prevent social instability. No giant has any reason to upset the apple cart, from where I stand, so it will maintain it's apple carting abilities for a long time.

Polly Metallic said...

It seems a lengthy delay of FG has two problems. First being that I see no other solution to repair the broken balance sheets of the West, and even China with their growing credit bubbles could benefit from FG. I think the excesses of the last 70+ years can't be managed many more years without unintended consequences blowing up the $IMFS.

Secondly, traders of paper gold will either take the price below production costs for so long that the diminished flow will adversely impact countries that are trying to discretely accumulate gold, or the other scenario plays out wherein traders decide that much higher interest rates and a rebound of the global economy is not going to happen, and they initiate a resumption of the paper gold bull market. This also has the potential to destroy the "gold market" and the $IMFS. No? What am I missing?

Edwardo said...

MF,

I do not make the assumption that giants can manage the buying and selling in size amongst themselves by themselves. Equally, giants, despite their inordinate wherewithal, are not unencumbered from a host of aspects that work against their ability to pull off the running of the senior tier market in absolute isolation. Giants re a disparate group who only have their great wealth in common with one another. In every other way the are as subject to that which divides one person from another as the rest of us.

Max, I don't see an outbreak of social cohesion or stability globally, but, rather the opposite, upgeaval of the sort whose trajectory ultimately threatens giants. I would also point that mining output's future going out two decades is abysmal. I, for one, am going to be very interested to see how the whole ball of spinning wax responds to a condition where mining output falls precipitously.

Roacheforque said...

Polly,
You're not missing anything. You nailed it.
Isn't it funny how the pendulum takes so long to swing? First it was Libor/Shibor, then the FX markets, then gold manipulation, now HFT "unfairness". When there's nothing left to steal from the current host, it's time to "shackle the thieves" and let what we've been sitting on all along resume its traditional function.

I'm not saying it's a conspired "plan", just an inevitable one.

Motley Fool said...

Polly

Missing? Not much I think.

However. The context if my question is post collapse.

So. After everything has gone to hell, and the debts have been inflated away. What incentive is there to let FG take it's place? As opposed to just setting up another hard or soft money system.

Edwardo

"I do not make the assumption that giants can manage the buying and selling in size amongst themselves by themselves."

Why not? Fofoa does in this post. For 800 or more years. :P

If mining collapses...so what? Nobody gets any. There is more than enough above ground already to manage a seperate system. In fact volume is irrelevant as long as price is arbitrary, stable and consistent.

TF

Ps. It's a good day to poke a bit of fun at the thesis, dontcha think? xD

Polly Metallic said...

Post collapse, I find it hard to envisage what country or currency block could come up with a system other than FG that the rest of the world would trust or agree to support.

Motley Fool said...

Polly

I know I am being difficult. It is purposeful.

For one thing, my argument is based on the assumption of the premises. If giants do not have this two tiered market, but simply value gold much higher because they know the current system will fail, then my argument is moot.

But let's see.

The price of gold is a matter of function. If we were to institute a gold standard at 20% backing today it would have one price. At 40% another price. A fiat system like the present another price. And a freegold system another price.

How about JR's SDR solution. A mixed bag of exhorbitant priveledge managed by the IMF. Set up in a post collapse world with some percentage of the value as gold. Sure it would fail over time. But then we can simply claim again that gold doesn't work and try some other paper standard.

My question posed another way is why do we expect evolution instead of devolution? ;)

TF

Indenture said...

”Europe will start selling its physical.” If the ECB sells gold to prolong the system for ten more years then Freegold was “developed” for no reason and the European Union was established for kumbaya hand holding.

John said...

Europe has already been selling their physical gold for quite some time evidently....the problem is that they didn't even know it....just ask the Germans :)

DP said...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hb3YZ6EZX_8/Th4Liexn2vI/AAAAAAAABzs/uEqAuvuG1so/s1600/Gold_Volume.jpg

Edwardo said...

Well, MF,

The "giants" may have managed it by themselves at various points in the past, but, according to Another, in more recent times the deals were brokered.

When mining collapses should the upper tier engage in systematically jacking up the price amongst themselves to greater multiples of the lower tier, this will not magically solve the problem. Recall that if one level of the market is stressed, in this case it would be the lower tier, it ends up stressing all levels as one level is forced has to go outside the usual channels to source the metal.

So, even as the lower tier of savers of physical are, admittedly, individually, and, in small groups, not pivotal, en masse, that becomes a much less compelling proposition.

In the meantime, though the following is not directly related to your specific line of attack, Poly makes an excellent point. The $IMFS is definitely going the way of the dodo bird, and nothing else is going to make more sense and have more appeal than a system whose foundation is one with a free floating physical market. You can take that as my answer to your devolution question. Freegold is the path of least resistance. It is, after all the dust settles a case of Occam's Razor.

Michael Martin said...

So. After everything has gone to hell, and the debts have been inflated away. What incentive is there to let FG take it's place?

The only thing I can think of for a giant to want FG to be ushered in would be to get at the vast quantities of gold of other country's CBs without resorting to clandestine operations (e.g. military might).

Revaluing gold to 50x levels would encourage spending by most people and most politicians. Yes, there are savers that save and then there are savers that feel like they won the lottery. Although my opinion is unfounded, I feel that a lot of the goldbug community who stack do so looking forward to a jump in price ("to da moon!") and will unload when we do get "to da moon".

Politicans on the other hand will also realize that they have a large surplus and start spending with gusto. It is one thing to transition to a RPG system and a whole other thing to discard "ingrained lessons" of the pre-RPG fiat system that one was born into and grew up on.

There are a lot of countries that would be ripe for the picking; nations with politicians who don't know basic lessons of SoV and UoA.

But then again, doing it out in the open would make them easy targets for the ire of the mob.

Tommy2Tone said...

If I was a Giant, I'd prefer evolution as opposed to devolution because we've had a good long look at devolution now and evolution seems to me, may bring it down from a 1000 hungry lions to a more manageable 100.
I think it would be a very personal incentive that every Giant must have...hmmm on the one hand: been there, done that. On the other: something new, that appears to offer a way to deal with that very human issue: greed.
Everyone will be their own personal Giant. I would think it would be a welcome change.

Sam said...


Knowing the current system will fail is like knowing a human being will die. Humans and debt based monetary systems alike are designed from their inception to grow, thrive, age, and then die. There are no exceptions, not by chance, but by design.
So I’d work from the premise that anyone that is on the short end of the settlement stick under the current system, but is still participating at their own expense, would do so only if they knew that final settlement was coming when the currency system dies (100% probability) and the new system is necessarily implemented.

Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tommy2Tone said...

And happy April Fools Day to the Fool :)

Tommy2Tone said...

"Revaluing gold to 50x levels would encourage spending by most people and most politicians. Yes, there are savers that save and then there are savers that feel like they won the lottery. Although my opinion is unfounded, I feel that a lot of the goldbug community who stack do so looking forward to a jump in price ("to da moon!") and will unload when we do get "to da moon"."

IF (of the big size there) they make it to the other side still holding that gold.
Many are expected to sell at the worst time as they lack the understanding required to keep them from themselves at that worst time.

Michael Martin said...

In the meantime, though the following is not directly related to your specific line of attack, Poly makes an excellent point. The $IMFS is definitely going the way of the dodo bird, and nothing else is going to make more sense and have more appeal than a system whose foundation is one with a free floating physical market.

The past few days I've been trying to squeeze in some reading up on how the reserve currency transition occurred from the Pound Sterling to USD. I still haven't gone through all the papers I've googled but my impression so far was that it wasn't such a disorderly/chaotic transition.
I found out about the "pound in your pocket" official message but in spite of that devaluation (and other pound devaluations prior and after) it didn't really "utterly destroy" the pound sterling.

So I was thinking that maybe the transition from the USD to, say the Euro, could similarly be "orderly" to some degree. So there wouldn't be a "total collapse" of the USD? (I know, wishful thinking on my part.)

Then the thought popped into my head; wouldn't a MTM now of the US gold be a possible can-kicking option? That is just a MTM scenario. What if RPG happens pre-collapse? Wouldn't the RPG event be a restoration of confidence in the USD? Another can-kicking option?

But then finding a logical trigger for RPG-pre-$IMFS-collapse is probably impossible so RPG-pre-collapse is highly improbable. Probably.

DP said...

Like this?

Open Letter To Ron Paul

Edwardo said...

MM wrote:

Politicans on the other hand will also realize that they have a large surplus and start spending with gusto.

I think you need to read some more on freegold so as to understand that political profligacy of the sort that is endemic to the present system isn't going to be a feature of the next one.

Michael Martin said...

Edwardo

I thought that "if you hate the current system you are certainly going to hate the next one" or words to that effect hinted that we could still see much more of the same "political profligacy" at the onset of freegold at the very least?

While I do admit that I need to read up more on freegold, is it a far stretch of the imagination that although freegold can be an overnight event, literacy in financial prudence is not an overnight lesson that can be learned?

Michael Martin said...

or rather
"... is not a lesson that can be learned overnight"

One Bad Adder said...

@Sam: - Golds appeal relates entirely to it's immunisation from the whole "born-live-die" dynamic ...in other words - RISK.
The fact that Gold doesn't (ever) come in to the Interest-Risk-Time equation is lost on many (most) commentators Sam.

Jeff said...

Reserve currency transitions

FOA: ORO, It has to unwind through a reserve transition. Default will only come through inflation after the fact. That is the only way a modern reserve currency can revert back to a regular currency without a complete washout of the global financial structure. Call it what we want, inflation, deflation, default or devaluation, the loss of the ability to expand a reserve fiat further becomes an end time banking crisis that requires the next system to take over. If no replacement is available we all go down.

The problem of when is a currency no longer "reserve quality" is based more on it's expansion qualities than it's comparable exchange strengths. The failing point is reached when the local economic system can no longer supply products or new productive capabilities in sufficient quantity to expand the internal debt base for real use reasons. The money then just expands because it's "Legal Tender" and anyone can get some. This shuts off the real money making engine and forces currency creation only for the sake of it's ability to buy and finance things. Not it's ability to hold a steady value. In other words, more dollars are loaned into existence just because they still have some value left in them to trade for things and that value is based on debt pay back strength. Not because their creation is matched by a productive increase somewhere in the society.

Obviously the US has been on this path for some time. Today, the only reason the dollar still has value is because of this pay back crisis. Dollar denominated debt is so far out of line with it's perceived real economic base, the rush is on to move real world infrastructure debt out of dollars and leave the rest of these dollar claime sloshing around as trading vehicles. And boy that's a lot of slosh to move around.(smile)

Phat Repat said...

It is starting to look like this just might come to an end, to my chagrin, quicker than expected. The complexity inherent in the system today is way past the point of being tenable. There are too many balls in the air and not enough competent jugglers.

As much as I would have liked to see the system extended, at least into late 2015, it seems that may not be possible. Forgive my greed for wanting to acquire more physical at lower prices.

Motley Fool said...

Edwardo

"When mining collapses should the upper tier engage in systematically jacking up the price amongst themselves to greater multiples of the lower tier, this will not magically solve the problem. Recall that if one level of the market is stressed, in this case it would be the lower tier, it ends up stressing all levels as one level is forced has to go outside the usual channels to source the metal."

I don't know. If the second tier price is jacked up, it means much less stress on the first tier ito volume required.

In fact an argument could be made that if an arbitrarily high stable price( I don't think the price is arbitrary btw) could be agreed upon in the second tier, then simply this is enough to relieve stress on the first tier.

"The $IMFS is definitely going the way of the dodo bird, and nothing else is going to make more sense and have more appeal than a system whose foundation is one with a free floating physical market."

I don't disagree. But if I look at the lessons of history, it seems that that which makes the most sense is not often the path followed.

jojo

"If I was a Giant, I'd prefer evolution as opposed to devolution because we've had a good long look at devolution now and evolution seems to me, may bring it down from a 1000 hungry lions to a more manageable 100."

Well, which type of giant. CB's don't really care about the lions, only superproducers do. So what is their level of power in the mix?

And thank you. :D

Sam

"So I’d work from the premise that anyone that is on the short end of the settlement stick under the current system, but is still participating at their own expense, would do so only if they knew that final settlement was coming when the currency system dies (100% probability) and the new system is necessarily implemented."

Well, that is part of what I wanted to highlight. If we assume they already trade at a second tier higher price, then they in effect already have their settlement price. If not, then my argument is moot, and there is benefit in it for them for FG.

It's a subtle point I think. It is even possible for giants to sell say a large hoard at a multiple today, because they already value it higher, and for such exchanges not to be the norm, and so settlement to be still in future.

I am not so certain that giants have been selling for many multiples for a long time. It is possible that such things started happening more recently, say post 1980 or later.

One of my objections which I noted very early in this thread( my 2nd comment), was that I see no reason for giants to sell...even at an equitable price.

TF

Sam said...

very rich and dense stuff in the FOA quote from Jeff above. Worth reading 2-3 times. Want to know why FOFOA does long posts. Because the three paragraphs above could be distilled into 3 pages and it would only be scratching the surface.

Edwardo said...

MF wrote:

I don't know. If the second tier price is jacked up, it means much less stress on the first tier ito volume required

I thought we were talking about the upper tier -which I am defining as the realm of the giants-operating their market by and for themselves in an environment where there is very little if any mining output (which makes up the bulk of the flow for both tiers). I don't see how the lower tier wouldn't be stressed in that case because the supply simply wouldn't be there for the legions of shrimps, and less numerous jumbo shrimps, to acquire.

In fact an argument could be made that if an arbitrarily high stable price( I don't think the price is arbitrary btw) could be agreed upon in the second tier, then simply this is enough to relieve stress on the first tier.

By all means, make the details of that argument known to us. In the meantime, whatever your argument's features may be, it strikes me that such a scheme would be, at best, just a time buying device. It reminds me of Jim Rickard's contention that physical gold will be managed within a band. And while the following observation isn't exactly on point, considering the fact that Mr. Rickard's is instinctively critical of central planning regimes, that idea strikes me as just a bit of a contradiction.

But if I look at the lessons of history, it seems that that which makes the most sense is not often the path followed.

Winston Churchill, a man who, despite his performance as Britain's PM during WWII, was known to have committed some egregious errors in judgement-see The Dardenelles Campaign, once remarked that You can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they've tried everything else." Well, America (and much of the rest of the world) have been engaged in senseless endeavors for quite a while where the monetary system's concerned, So, while it's not, by any means, a bad bet to wager on the side of more senselessness to come, I'd just like to point out that ill advised choices mixed with benign neglect and a dollop of abject stupidity have been coming fast and furious for quite a while now.

Michael Martin said...

Edwardo wrote:
MM wrote:

Politicans on the other hand will also realize that they have a large surplus and start spending with gusto.

I think you need to read some more on freegold so as to understand that political profligacy of the sort that is endemic to the present system isn't going to be a feature of the next one.


Ok, I just read through "The Return to Honest Money" post and through the comments and reading Blondie's comment:
Oil will be available for any currency in which the expenses can be paid, and for which the portion of the profit margin to be saved in reserve (if any) is exchangeable for gold.

The situation is the same whether a zone is a net oil producer or net oil consumer: net surplus zones will accrue gold, while net deficit zones will drain of it.

Any zone can live beyond its means only for as long as it has reserves to make up the deficit.


So with freegold, fiscal discipline would be "inflicted" upon everyone; if you don't balance your imports with exports (i.e. produce as much or more than you consume) you'll "spend" your way into the poor house.

But counties not operating on expriv are already subject to some form of similar "monetary rules"; balance imports with exports or you end up with a deficit that has an impact on your local economy.

Anyway, I have a lot of re-reading ahead of me. And I'll stop posting for now so I won't be further disrupting MF's debate topic which is developing quite interestingly.

Still waiting on a new post from FOFOA. Was half-wishing him to do a "FreeSilver" post today. :P

Motley Fool said...

Edwardo

"I thought we were talking about the upper tier -which I am defining as the realm of the giants-operating their market by and for themselves in an environment where there is very little if any mining output"

My mistake. I should specify when I change parameters. In this case I considered a real world scenario where there is still mining flow, with a upper tier using a stratospheric price which would lessen their weight demand. As long as the value in this higher tier is agreed upon and stable, so an exchange either way can be made without risk, it would be functional. I don't suppose I need to expand more than this?

"In the meantime, whatever your argument's features may be, it strikes me that such a scheme would be, at best, just a time buying device."

It strikes me that that is exactly the nature of every single transition in history so far, a time saving scheme that delays things for a while. Given how short-sighted most of those in political power appear to be ( and these days economical too) it is not too surprising, nor should it be unexpected.

Of course this would simply be another unsustainable system, but hey, we've had a few of those, and they last long enough...till the next band-aid can be applied.

One of the better arguments I have seen has been made in private, but I don't think the author will mind me sharing.

It is that with each previous transition, 1933 - gold removed from local redemption, 1945 - gold and dollars accepted at par, 1971 - gold no longer redeemable at fixed rates; a slight deterioration in the quality if you will of gold redemption has been seen. However today we already have gold at floating rates, and non-redeemable, what further possible amelioration exists? None, seems to be the answer.

But this simply means this time there is no patch, and the system will collapse. However, will we learn from our mistakes of the past.

FOFOA has pointed out that a gold-backed system with a price too high or too low will fail, and rightly so. I have however always wondered about the goldilocks condition. A price just enough to buy a few more decades with gold-exchange, and then return to the current system, starting over with little or no debt.

"So, while it's not, by any means, a bad bet to wager on the side of more senselessness to come, I'd just like to point out that ill advised choices mixed with benign neglect and a dollop of abject stupidity have been coming fast and furious for quite a while now."

I appreciate the well worded point. :)

But, can we rely on hope; that this time they will see sense?

TF

Ps. I hope the good natured spirit of this debate is finding approval of others taking part. ;)

Motley Fool said...

Pps. I find it strange that nobody, excluding myself, has considered the explicit premises of my argument, for possible mistake.

At the least I think due consideration should be given to every weak point. ^^

In the broad sweep of history, what is this little market failure, if you have a second tier market where wealth can be stored and traded, that has been in existence for hundreds of years.

Unless of course that is not the case. :P

I should note that I am not wed to my words on this day. I am simply straining the narrative as best I may with opposition, to see that nothing is overlooked. Complacency is a disease that leads to rot of the mind.

Anonymous said...

With the collapse of $IMFS we are talking about the near total destruction of all fictive "wealth" in the monetary plane. $IMFS works because many net-producers voluntarily put their surplus into debt instruments, thereby unwittingly donating their surplus to the collective. This will not be possible post-collapse! You can't just instantly restart credibility inflation!

There is no way that you're going to shoehorn some kind of paper solution onto all those savers who just had their savings destroyed either. You can't dictate from up high what producers will put their surplus into, and they aren't going to put it into any SDR or other snake oil having just been horribly burned. FG is the only thing that can work.

Aaron said...

Hi Edwardo-

I think you mistook my position or perhaps I mistook your response.

I said,

Freegold will be a result of what savers are/were willing to save in.

And you said,

I don't think Freegold will come about as a result of the choice "savers" make regarding which vehicle they choose to park their surplus in. That said, I admit that my disagreement, as you'll soon see, rests, to some degree, on semantics.

To be clear, my intent was to emphasize the were part of are/were, specifically in support of this observation:

I think Freegold is about giants no longer seeing value in loaning out their gold while trying to retain that gold as a store of value.

I see a top-down driven scenerio, one set in motion long ago. I don’t see the inception of Freegold as a bottom up revelation where every joe and jane sixpack stores their excess $20 in Peak Prosperity Aurums.

It seems perhaps this led MF to think that I believe sheeple will awaken from their ill advised saving propensities and usher in Freegold. Definitely not the case. This whole thing is top down baby. The bottom up part comes after the transition has already happened.


Jeff said...

A nonfreegold system is an illusion (paper gold) and a bribe (real gold). Destroy the illusion, and who will pay the bribe?

ANOTHER: My friend, you see the gold with "Western eyes". In mind, it be always, "how much currency does my gold bring". In this world of much paper gold, it bring not much dollars yes. In such matter, your currency makers do make your wealth lay low. This dream of much dollar currency for gold is the illusion in the "Western Mind". Your men of "deep pockets" do probe for shortages, however, their wish for low supply is not to be found. Their pockets are full with "credit gold" and sad are they at currency price this brings. It is the fools game to corner paper gold printing press, no? Sir, I stand with no fools!

Days and nights do pass and one morning will bring a dollar price for gold you have never known. In that day, I will cast this currency down and walk with real wealth. In this day, the gold will trade in Euros and no bribe of credit gold will be needed to mark this new money.

Today, I my world it be how much gold does dollar currency bring. A difference in understanding from yours, I think. Today, amount of bullion available for dollars no longer the reflection of bullion dollar exchange, it be now the most terrible bribe for world dollar use. An acceptable deal in most of world, such is real world outside your laws, no?

But, it is here, in act of making extra credit gold, where the "shortage" you speak of, is measured my friend. A good man with one eye does see this time as of but few years and short days. Aside from our Euro political changes, history alone does show all great currencies end with this overselling of credit gold as last of era. This paper gold credit is always for the fools first and last. It value is later reduced to same as currency, along with holders of no gold.

It be our good fortune (and yours) that bullion is offered still. For the simple man, such as I, this wealth is that for kings but more so for his people. For all peoples, gold will be again the wealth of ages.

In this day, at end of dollar era, all do see real bullion sold for sake of market credibility, only. Perhaps too, bank credibility, I think. In this world, the lower this dollar paper price, the more bullion becomes available for credibility sake. It is the good thing for men of "small pockets" and the curse against traders and fools.

I bid you the good fortune of "small pockets" with much physical gold! We watch this new gold market together, yes?


Aaron said...

DP said...

Giants happy to sell their reserve assets for market prices as long as they can also sell many more liabilities of the same (i.e.: "gold savers" are "willing to save in Giant liabilities"), while still being able to turn around and buy back from the market the assets from which they were previously parted?

Well put, DP. I agree with that. As long as giants can buy back the gold the game continues. Who cares about the liabilities. It's only money! ;D

Edwardo said...

MF wrote:

But this simply means this time there is no patch, and the system will collapse. However, will we learn from our mistakes of the past.

I think we have some strong evidence in the form of The Euro that the answer is yes. However, it is by turns perplexing and frustrating waiting for certain well positioned entities to take the necessary steps in order to fulfill the promise inherent in line 1 of the ECB's Confinstat.

RJPadavona said...

"Pps. I find it strange that nobody, excluding myself, has considered the explicit premises of my argument, for possible mistake."


Yeah, that would be strange if you were the only one who's considered such a thing. I'm sure we all have to some degree.

It's kinda funny that A/FOA first hit the scene all those years ago and here are all us freaks who still can't resist thinking FG is right around the corner. I guess it's always good to keep in mind that we're just shrimps and we really don't know shit when it comes down to it.

While I was reading 'Think Like A Giant 3' I remembered thinking two things:

1) The two-tier gold market concept is probably the weakest part of the FG thesis. Damn, FOFOA is making a great case for it. Holy shit, I'm witnessing economic history. This guy should take off the whole month of March after such an epic post.

2) He's also making a good argument for why Giants are in no hurry to upset the apple cart any time soon. They've got a pretty decent gig going on.



It's also worth repeating that the thoughts here at this blog are about walking in the footsteps of Giants, not knowing how long it takes for them to get somewhere. Because of this blog we understand the true money concept. We know what it means to be a saver. Working in the short term, saving for the long term. If you understand this, you're most likely ahead of everyone you know. For me, that's enough. I don't care when "IT" happens. I'll live a pretty good life regardless.

This quote from Ari is one of my favorites. Bold emphasis is mine:

"I'll never again make the mistake of investing in a paper generator when there is real money (Gold) to be claimed. As a productive person, I invest in myself and make (earn) my paper directly. Then I cash it in for Gold, month after month. It's a One Way Street for an enjoyable life. I never did enjoy fretting over whether IBM or AT&T would be the better performer. I AM the performer, and all that I ask of my money is that it really be money--payment-in-full."


Besides, what are y'all in a hurry for --- so you can be filthy rich while everyone else around you is living with three or four generations of family members in a single-wide trailer? Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Sounds like a lonely, paranoid life where you think everyone's out to get your loot. That, to me, is how a Giant thinks, just on a much larger scale. Yeah, stability is more valuable than all the gold in the world to me too. I feel their pain ;)

So take your vitamins, do your push-ups, say your prayers, go to work, and save in gold. That's all that shrimps like us can do. This monetary system is gonna keep going...... until it don't.


Things Change





Michael dV said...

RJ
I hear ya…but yes I'm ready for the 'big one'…I think…
I have completely accepted the impossibility of knowing when things will unravel but I have a long time looking at 'normal' and what we are experiencing sure ain't normal. The Fed might be able to land this engineless plane but I think it is going to be a really hard landing. Even if they can just cough up a few hundred billion a year to make derivatives show 'all OK' in the headline number I have a really hard time believing that this system is so well planned that there aren't many things that could cause it to fail.
I have a hard time assuming a patient attitude because even though, yes, life just rolls along, I know a really hard bump is probably coming soon. Life now is like having the flight attendant offer one more drink when you know you are in a dive.
It all just makes me too edgy to relax…and enjoy.

Anand Srivastava said...

The bottom line for me is that nobody wants the transition. Not giants and not the little people. The only people who want the transition are us shrimp Freegolders :-). We are the only ones who know that we will gain something out of it. But even for us, the longer it delays the more we will have, and better prepared we will be.

There are two triggers as FOFOA has told us, the price of everyday items and the price of gold. Either will cause the other in short order.

We cannot predict when inflation happens, but it would likely cause the banks to close down one fine day, and the currency goes under a massive devaluation.

We cannot predict when price of gold causes the transition, but we do know it will be sometime after when the mines close down. This will happen if price of gold stays too low to allow them to operate. But how would that cause the crisis, unless the OPEC refuses to sell oil for dollars. They do expect some gold for their Oil, and if there is no gold then they would want to suspend their oil selling in Dollars. They would eventually have to do that, but their decision will be balanced by the military might of USA. There are n number of oil countries that have had to face attacks from USA on the oil issue.

I would think they would still have to wait for the devaluation (after the inflation), so that the USA military will not be sustainable, before they can suspend petrodollar.

So it could be that we have to wait for the Dollar Devaluation. I don't know how far it is but mines closing will push it nearer. And the fact that a lot of Paper Gold will become worthless in the aftermath of mines closing, will cause a lot of pain (for the banks) and printing (from the FED), and could trigger the devaluation.

I would think Gold going below 1000$ and staying there for 3 months would pretty much kill the mines. The current prediction is for the price of gold going below 1000$ by the year end. By that prediction 2015 should be the year when everything blows away.

DP said...

MF: with each previous transition, 1933 - gold removed from local redemption, 1945 - gold and dollars accepted at par, 1971 - gold no longer redeemable at fixed rates; a slight deterioration in the quality if you will of gold redemption has been seen. However today we already have gold at floating rates, and non-redeemable, what further possible amelioration exists? None, seems to be the answer.

Perhaps your friend didn't mean the specification of money, in terms of its redeemability for gold, has been kicked all the way to the end of the road, but instead that This Time Is Different... because the unpayable (in physical gold) debts are no longer cash-denominated liabilities, which might be once more respecified in some way, but instead are very specifically weight-denominated gold liabilities? Perhaps I am trying to read too much into what they may have said, from what you have shared.

Motley Fool said...

DP

Very good point, regardless. :)

TF

Woland said...

Thanks for spurring the interesting discussion, MF.

On another topic, thanks to Mortymer: A new working paper:

from the ECB, by Eichengreen, et al.
"Network Effects, Homogeneous Goods, and International
Currency Choice - New Evidence on Oil Markets"

One take away is that there has been an exaggeration of the
"network benefits" of single currency pricing, and that multl-polar pricing both has ( in the past) and can (in the present)
function effectively. (but please, don't take my word for it)
{;<)>

Roacheforque said...

GATA has actually found a gem at Reuters in terms of kicking the can a bit longer with the typical mainstream status quo paradigm propaganda.

The devolution that MF refers to in my mind can still be seen as the suppression of gold to the status of a commodity.

Until the East breaks that Western paradigm, we will continue to see the sheople as being completely blind to the oxymoron of a more "transparent fix" ... for the contracts of "jewelers, miners and refiners" to perform upon.

Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lisa said...

Network Effects, Homogeneous Goods, and International
Currency Choice - New Evidence on Oil Markets

Tommy2Tone said...

A Revolution in Money

Indenture said...

anand: “The bottom line for me is that nobody wants the transition. Not giants and not the little people.” Giants want and need stability. If ‘transition’ brings stability then Giants want it. Fear of the hungry collective is an impressive motivator.

M said...

@ Edwardo

Edwardo said...
Paper gold has the distinct look of something that's fallen down and can't get (it) up. In this most recent decline, which has now erased half the gains from early January, the action has been "orderly", but, at some point, short of this doomed thing finding its legs, it's going to get disorderly. Here's to some serious paper gold market disorder coming to a theater near you."

As much as you may think it makes logical sense for paper gold to be on its last legs, it never works that way. So I wonder if it will work that way this time. If paper gold crashes out here, it will be the first time that everyone was right. The general public is hugely bearish, the easy money is hugely bearish. They would all be patting themselves on the back saying how right they were if paper gold crashed further.

In 2013, the most shorted stocks went the highest. Now, the stock market breaks new records every day on bad news. The Russian stock market even goes up on bad news. Spanish debt is trading pips away from US debt.

In a world where everything is upside down, its not likely that anything right side up will happen in the paper or physical gold market.

So take whatever rational thoughts about the paper gold market you have and turn them upside down. It is more likely to turn out that way.

Paper gold is going higher.

Phat Repat said...

I'm waiting for a Giant to utter the words, "let them eat brioche." That didn't work out so well last time, however. Which leads me to believe that Giants are absolutely in tune with what is happening around them. Major upheavals result in many heads being lost; and not just from the peasants.

We will likely see a bounce in paper gold; but I don't believe we have seen a wash-out as of yet.

Sam said...

two-tier

I love the concept of two-tier because it encompasses the simplicity and simultaneous complexity of the Giant vs. Shrimp world understanding more than anything I can think of. Two-tier gold is not only real it is so logical it hurts. If you want to understand this part of the Freegold thesis "Think like a Giant" is the not so simple prerequisite advice. Not easy to do when everything you have ever experienced in life was as a shrimp.

I'll make a wild and crazy statement to illustrate my point.

"not only is there a two-tier market for gold in the world, as well as many other things, but there is even a two their market for currency in the world."

Tier one is what all of us shrimps use. Tier two is the ones used by Giants.

To us shrimps it seems like anything can be purchased with enough currency. That's the game. To paraphrase Another, we all think we just need to bid a few currency units higher than everyone else to get the real stuff of this world so we gladly hoard our medium of exchange as savings. Giants, due to their size, are forced to know and understand what currency really is. They know that it does not settle a trade and so if they want something of real value they must give something of real value in return. When oil sells itself for dollars it does so because the dollar can still buy some gold. If it stops buying gold the second tier price of the two-tier dollar market will be revealed and instantaneously merged with the 1st tier

Indenture said...

MF asked, "What incentive do giants have to let FreeGold manifest?"
Control of their currency. A currency must be able to trade for oil and that currency must be exchangeable for physical gold. Giants would happily manifest Freegold if it it would maintain confidence in their currency. If confidence is lost in all currencies stability changes into chaos, the barter system emerges and Giants hide in the shadows fearful for their lives. A working currency is a much better option.

Motley Fool said...

Indenture

Another good point. :)

...

Thanks to everyone for participating in my lil april Fools fun. :)

One Bad Adder said...

A Two-tier market for Gold Sam? It's a bit more complicated than that I'd reckon.
There is (it would appear) a Multi-tier setup with Gold. 1- PaperGold (which can be further disected - Comex, Mining Shares etc) 2- Official Physical (CB's etc) 3- Unofficial Physical (..in the strong hands of Giants, and Shrimps the world over)
These last several years have borne witness to an unprecedented transfer from 1 and 2 ...to 3, which is currently on-going and will ultimately see the emergence of a genuine FreeGold environment. Not necessarily with "official" endorsement IMHO.

One Bad Adder said...

I'm kinda liking THIS set-up.
We might well be on the cusp of a bottom in $PoG IF (big if) this thing can establish itself at/below Zero yield.

One Bad Adder said...

Grrr! Here's the link -http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$IRX&p=D&b=5&g=0&id=p73458434997

One Bad Adder said...

At the other end of the Credit spectrum - http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$TYX&p=D&b=5&g=0&id=p83703898915 -
we can see the emergent market reluctance to embrace the Future.
IF this persists, "here-n-now" Gold will shine like there's no tomorrow.

Edwardo said...

M wrote:

As much as you may think it makes logical sense for paper gold to be on its last legs, it never works that way. So I wonder if it will work that way this time. If paper gold crashes out here, it will be the first time that everyone was right.

Never say never. There are a host of things informing my view that paper gold looks like it's on its last legs. One of them is that when a market is deeply oversold and can't stage a decent bounce, let alone a rally, like paper gold can't seem to do, it does not augur well, no siree, Bob.

Your premise about everyone being on one side of the trade is belied by your stance. When you throw in the towel, M, I might be tempted to resort to a make a long trade, with a close trailing stop of course. In the meantime, I have reason to think that there are plenty of your fellow travelers out there buying shares in an companies destined for the junk heap of history.

Michael Martin said...

Has anyone been following the ruckus between Russia and the US/EU? Of course you all are.
But is anyone actively viewing these events through the Freegold lens? What is your take on the US-Russia current events in terms of Freegold?

I checked out the Central Bank of Russia's asset statement and they also have "Precious Metals" on line one (as does EU's CoinFinStat). Checking the numbers out, it comes out to around 1,040 tonnes, around what is officially declated by Russia as their gold holdings so they seem to also be marking-to-market.

I remember it being mentioned that no one giant/country wants to come out re-valuing gold at FPOG prices because they would be painted as "the bad guy" (i.e. rocking the status quo and devaluing fiat paper globally).

So, could the tit-for-tat sanctions between the US and Russia be the US forcing Russia's hand in killing the dollar (as the UoA in international trade) so that they could declare Russia as "the bad guy"? The EU washes its hands from the spat between US and Russia and steps in with the Euro as the viable alternative to replace the USD, with FPOG to legitimize the confidence in Euro (i.e. "see, we've been marking-to-market our gold all this time.")

Sorry if I'm painting a very simplistic view of these geopolitical events. But I can imagine that the US is not doing itself or the USD any favors by antagonizing Russia with economic sanctions that have no "bite" (i.e. from the expression, "all bark no bite").

As of now, I've read that Russia has officially signed an energy agreement with China, the EU has backed down on sanctions on Russia because it gets a majority of its energy needs from Gazprom, Russia is looking into new payment systems beyond SWIFT, and is also looking at new credit card payment systems.



On a tangential note, I've gone through FOFOA's Confiscation Anatomy - a different view and, before that, the link DP mentoned above on Open Letter To Ron Paul
but came away with some cognitive dissonance.
On the one hand, the US government has painted itself into a corner and can't MTM gold from it's $42 valuation otherwise other international entities would try to lay legal claim over past promises on that gold.
But on the other hand, marking-to-market the US government's gold holdings would give the electorate more money to spend (i.e. buy some time to get its affairs in order or just delay the day of reckoning).
The "confiscation" post was back in 2009 and the "open letter" post in 2011 so I'm thinking something else was posted between those two dates that would make the mark-to-market option mentioned in the "open letter" post a viable option for the US government.

farmersteveg said...

Michael Martin

I very much believe you might be on to something re Russia possibly introducing the freegold concept, intentionally or unintentionally.

Unfortunately for you, that alone is conclusive evidence you are wrong.

Edwardo said...

On Yuan Currency Convertibility. I can't vouch for the source, but here 'tis FWIW.

Phat Repat said...

Considering the ridiculous Capital controls China has in place right now, $50K/annum/person/account, I'm sure any change would be quite welcome. More could be transferred, but only if the bank is satisfied with the documentation you provide (and yes, you will need documentation).

M said...

@ Edwardo

"Never say never. There are a host of things informing my view that paper gold looks like it's on its last legs. One of them is that when a market is deeply oversold and can't stage a decent bounce, let alone a rally, like paper gold can't seem to do, it does not augur well, no siree, Bob.
Your premise about everyone being on one side of the trade is belied by your stance. When you throw in the towel, M, I might be tempted to resort to a make a long trade, with a close trailing stop of course."

I am stuck in a rut. I am a big of believer of Freegold as anyone. But I am also stuck being long paper gold in the form of miners at this point. Lots of physical and lots of paper. I would rather have this money die and go to money heaven then cash out at 60 to 80% losses. This has been the worst selloff of all time. Worse then the post 80's run. Worse then 2008. So its already been different...Maybe you will be right.

But nobody ever got rich selling in bear markets. Its a risk and a stupid risk, but I have no choice but to buy more mining stocks. Physical isn't particularly cheap in Canadian dollars anyway. Plus this seemingly endless supply of physical at dirt prices the world over is starting to make we wonder about the whole premise.

Sam said...

@M

Have you ever heard of the economic term "sunk cost"? Very important term to know when tasked with making sound financial choices.


Ender said...

Greetings my fellow metal-heads!

As we all know, when you measure the dollar against gold it appears to be strong. Anyone can say that the dollar buys a lot of gold. Other currencies, being linked to the dollar, also appear to buy a lot of gold. The currency shrimp – I can buy all the gold I want. The currency giant – there is no gold to buy!

In this trade, it looks to the shrimp like gold supports the dollar. To the giant, gold does not support the dollar and hasn’t for a long time.

What supports the dollar to the currency giant?

When you measure the dollar against oil, it appears to be strong. Anyone can say that the dollar buys a lot of oil. Other currencies, being linked to the dollar, also appear to by lots of oil. The currency Shrimp – I can buy all the oil I want. The currency Giant – I buy no more than what’s needed.

To the shrimp, because gold supports the dollar, I’ll use it. To the Giant, because oil supports the dollar, that’s my only choice, thus I’m forced to use it.

What about the oil giant? Does the oil giant even want the currency? If the oil giant is a state, it was probably already a currency giant. The oil giant doesn’t want currency. The oil giant wants what the currency can buy – it wants a functioning currency!

Today (http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/5621/putin-plays-golden-card), we see that the game is changing slightly for the Ruble. The key thing to note is that the state is switching to accounting in the Ruble. Think hard about this. You will not take dollars to Russia and ask for oil – you won’t get any. You will be required to take Rubles to Russia to get oil. This stand forces the currency to function. This is what the giant wants! If you want what this giant has, you have to buy the Ruble.

The statement that they will honor settlement completes the deal. To Russia, it doesn’t matter if you want Gold or Dollars as settlement, but the simple fact that they honor settlement that matters.

So, what does this mean? Well, Russia is a relatively small economy, but they are a surplus economy. As we all know from studying the Freegold Concept, economies that generate a surplus will be able to either inflate their currency, whereby to keep it at par as in a fixed float, or let gold do the heavy lifting and see their currency strengthen. To a giant, there is nothing better than to have a currency that’s getting stronger.

To the shrimp, holding a currency that’s strengthening makes to look like you’ll get a better deal for gold in the future.

Note that Russia is an ice breaker. If they are able to pull this off, it will be mimicked by every other surplus economy!

Gold will be on the balance to judge currency management!

Ender

Anand Srivastava said...

Indenture:
Giants want and need stability. If ‘transition’ brings stability then Giants want it. Fear of the hungry collective is an impressive motivator.

Are you sure that the transition itself will be smooth? Could they not be fearing the transition itself? I do agree that it will be good for the Giants after the transition is complete.

Jeff said...

M,

If you're serious about holding the miners, ask for the certs and burn them. Then you won't be able to sell and you'll be forced to ride it out. Heh.

Trail Guide: It seems that Goldfields SA understood this well in front of everyone. They were the first to buy gold at the BOE auction, close out their shorts (most of them) and even held long paper gold. Progressive thinking one would expect from the best. (Yes, for anyone here that remembers, I took a position in them in support of their actions and burned the shares. Never to be sold. My wife may sell after I'm gone, no doubt (smile))
My feelings are,,,, as always, the best way for one to participate in this is with physical gold first in line, as the majority metal holding. If one is concerned about privacy then stock registration is out and indeed, bar registration violates the same ,,,,, then the old country coins are the best.

Roacheforque said...

Ender's comments are worthy of much consideration.

I see the Russian position as one being encouraged by the earlier sanctions with Iran, and the Iran/Russia (20b) deal as a further strengthening of this trend, which the G20 is no doubt discussing vigorously.

What is being mimicked by every other surplus economy has been quite the topic of the Eurasian Union, for quite some time now, with Putin very active along these lines.

The US reaction is the same as it has always been. However, today, the US is making the fatal error of "confiscating dollars" (in a sense electonically "confiscating" the dollar denominated means of exchange") of those entities who are in a sense "exercising exactly the same control over their global wealth reserve issuer as the bank exercises over the incautious shopper." (for this analogy, hat tip to Galmarley) except that today they are confiscating "dollar use" instead of gold (as they did in the 30's and in 71).

It is the height of hubris to equate the economic "freedom of the dollar" with the "freedom of gold".

So the dollar is either voluntarily or invoiluntarily commiting suicide, I don't think the motive matters, just the outcome.

Excellent thoughts Ender!

M said...

@ Sam

Sunk cost-a sunk cost is a retrospective (past) cost that has already been incurred and cannot be recovered.

One could have said that if they bought dow stocks at 2007 highs.

It depends if you are a speculator. One of 2 things is going to happen. These gold miners are either going to crash and burn further or go on one hell of a run. As the lame old saying goes, you have to buy when blood is in the streets. Regardless of fundamentals or rationality. Blood is in the streets. Nobody can deny that.

This has that DOW in March 09 or BP oil spill feeling all over it. So if you are a speculator, you have to buy and accept the consequences.

Phat Repat said...

That's not speculating; that's flat-out gambling. Though there may be a bounce, I just couldn't imagine ever doubling down on a losing position. I forget the handle but there was another dude here with that similar philosophy; and heeee'ssss gone.

Roacheforque said...

RJP,
I also have some concerns that post FG the folks who didn't like the last system and won't like the next may have a disruptive influence on my Karma.
But I also consider that while FG is unquestionably the best solution to what ails the world today, it is also the one that some Giants will kick and scream to prevent, even if a "doomed to fail" paper proxy like the SDR doesn't delay the "inevitable" with more politically acceptable can kicking.
And that causes me sometimes to question whether FG is truly inevitable (which some will say has been proven here) or just the most sensible and optimal solution to the dilemma of savers vs. borrowers.
It has clearly been proven here to be the latter. As to the former, time wears on that supposition for the many.

Woland said...

An interesting thought occurred to me regarding Ender's
comment, as it relates to Russia. The proposed $20 billion
"goods for oil" swap with Iran, apart from its political payback
element re: U.S. sanctions, can also be seen in an additional
light; Why does Russia want Iran's additional 500,000
barrel per day production? It's already a large exporter, right?
Well, the more production it can ultimately market, the more
power the Rouble has. The U.S. can hardly sanction Russia's
oil exports, and once it has the Iranian oil, it can do with it
what it likes, and require payment in whatever currency it
requires. Anyway, it looks like a win/win for both countries.

Ender said...

With metal in hand, we look for the arbitrage!

If the goal is to create a functioning currency based upon a resource that everyone needs, would you sell the resource in your currency or someone else’s currency?

As we all know, the dollar gets its support from oil (petro-dollar). We also know that this support gets its confidence from the strength of the dollar – which is directly related to the dollar’s ability to neutralize speculators in Open Public commodity markets. In order to continue to maintain confidence in the dollar system, commodities must remain cheap in dollars – gold included.

Is there another way to create a strong currency – even if you don’t have Open Public markets trading in your commodities? And, what if it’s just one commodity – energy.

Over the years, we’ve seen oil states announce private deals with neighboring states. They negotiate a deal – which implies that both sides are relatively happy with the transaction. In most all cases, the oil states accept the purchasing states currency (or a well managed currency). This act subjects the oil state to the monitory policy of the purchasing state (or currency state). If trade is balanced, it’s not a big deal for the oil state. If the trade is not balanced, it’s expected that settlement can happen in the FX markets. The problem is that the oil state end up saving the currency because settlement really doesn’t happen when you hold debt.

What we see as being different with Russia is that they are switching to only accepting their own currency for their own energy resources. By making this switch, they are basically saying that those that purchase their resources have currencies that are so poorly managed that they are not worth saving. This means that any favorable imbalance in trade for the oil state will equate to a surplus of Rubles for the state that manages the Ruble.

Or, does it mean that they found a path for settlement?

When you look at the petro-dollar, oil is sold for dollars, dollars buy treasuries that go on reserve that support local currency, etc. In the Russian case, it looks like the oil state will print Rubles (debt) to sell on the Open Public markets (for other debt) that will come back home when exchanged for oil. It looks like Ruble treasuries are not part of the picture. If this is true, Russia will not be forced to inflate their currency over time to buy back treasuries and those that purchase energy from Russia will be free of the political ties that come from holding treasuries.

Yet the problem remains for Russia with regards to what to do with the foreign currency that it’s acquiring when selling Rubles. Well, as we all know, that shouldn’t be a problem because these currencies buy any commodity in the world through the Open Public markets – and the side bonus is that the currencies that the Ruble bought are Strong! They can buy whatever they want.

Where is Russia’s savings?

Good day!

Indenture said...

Ender... Please post more often! Your last post before today was seven months ago and your post on April 28th, 2013 still holds significant meaning for me when I break it down, "It is good to see bullion transactions happening - this shows that our currencies are still working".

Motley Fool said...

Hi Ender

It's been a while since you have posted here. Welcome.

"Well, as we all know, that shouldn’t be a problem because these currencies buy any commodity in the world through the Open Public markets – and the side bonus is that the currencies that the Ruble bought are Strong! They can buy whatever they want."

Well, they may want to buy many things. But what can be had, even in these strong currencies. Where exists the depth of market to sink such funds? Commodity market? No. Gold at the current price? No. State debt? Sure, but do they really want more of that?

Unless their intent is to break the current market structure through outright purchase of gold...I don't see it; and doing so is a dangerous exercise.

TF

Motley Fool said...

Ps. While I am at it. ^^

" In the Russian case, it looks like the oil state will print Rubles (debt) to sell on the Open Public markets (for other debt) that will come back home when exchanged for oil."

This is inflationary, unless as you say they get to spend those rubles, and only create enough for liquidity so that their oil may be bought, and allow them time to spend down those other currency holdings again.

"It looks like Ruble treasuries are not part of the picture. If this is true, Russia will not be forced to inflate their currency over time to buy back treasuries and those that purchase energy from Russia will be free of the political ties that come from holding treasuries."

If they can find an outlet for those foreign currencies, sure. If not, then their holdings make the initial exchange directly inflationary, which is an even worse result than Ruble treasuries in many ways.

michael3c2000 said...

Things are coming to fruition?
According to this radio show exchange, chickens do come home to roost. Maybe it comes with the territory:
https://soundcloud.com/jeweline/ohio-sistar-on-the-real-truth (First 4minutes is the crux of it) 11min.
And more here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpBlYhlH6AI
URGENT: Military Door 2 Door, Common law, $2K Voucher, Econo reset - 13min.

michael3c2000 said...

http://www.nationallibertyalliance.org
This movement towards common law grand juries is growing rapidly. Radio shows no longer on blogtalk radio but the web site has much info., updates and links.

Tommy2Tone said...

I grew bored watching the pot, waiting for a sign, and penned a song to Janet Yellen during a quiet moment.

It goes like this:



I've been phoning
Night and morning
I heard you say
"Tell him I'm not home"

Now you're confessing
But I'm still guessing
I've been your fool
For so, so long

Girl don't lie
Just to save my feelings
Girl don't cry
And tell me nothing's wrong
Girl don't try
To make up phony reasons
I'd rather leave
Than never believe

If this is it
Please let me know
If this ain't love
You'd better let me go

If this is it
I want to know
If this ain't love, baby
Just say so

You've been thinking
And I've been drinking
We both know that it's
Just not right

Now you're pretending
That it's not ending
You'll say anything
To avoid a fight

Girl don't lie
And tell me that you need me
Girl don't cry
And tell me nothing's wrong
I'll be all right
One way or another
So let me go
Or make we want to stay

If this is it
Please let me know
If this ain't love
You'd better let me go

If this is it
I want to know
If this ain't love, baby
Just say so

If this is it
Please let me know
If this ain't love
You'd better let me go

If this is it
I want to know
If this ain't love, baby
Just say so

If this is it
Please let me know
(I wanna know)
If this is it
(If this is it)
Please let me know
(I gotta know)

If this is it
(You better let me know)
Please let me know
(Just say so)
If this is it
Please let me know

Ender said...

@ Motley Fool

Yes sir. It is inflationary. Yet it is inflationary by choice, rather than need. They only need to create enough to establish the flow of oil.

The part worth exploring is – how will this be different than the petro-dollar.

Why would they want to break anything? Why do they need Gold?

Where is Russia’s savings?

Ender

Roacheforque said...

Sir Ender,
You point out the Russian strategy quite adeptly.

A bold move to strengthen the Ruble only to weaken the dollar. One would only make that play with great foolishness or courage (a new twist on confidence?) perhaps sensing the turn is near.

As said before, the EU does not have vast energy resources to support the Euro ... however it does have, how did you say it ... where are Russia's savings?

Well, we have heard that Prince Vlad has no vast stock of USTs to dump, so as to "impale the dollar".

I'm told their savings lie UNDER the Kremlin.

A good day indeed.

Motley Fool said...

Ender

"They only need to create enough to establish the flow of oil."

This is only true if that currency revolves and is again spent on assets outside their border, otherwise they would need to create Rubles to match all oil sold outside their borders.

"Why would they want to break anything? Why do they need Gold?"

To store wealth?

From : http://rt.com/politics/russian-dollar-abandon-parliament-085/

"Our national industrial giants will not suffer any losses if they choose to make contracts in rubles or other alternative currencies. Russia will benefit from that. We should act paradoxically when we deal with the West. We will sell rubles to consumers of our oil and gas, and later we will exchange rubles for gold. If they don’t like this – let them not do this and freeze to death. Before they adjust, and this will take them three of four years, we will collect tremendous quantities of gold."

As to their where their savings are...I am not sure what you are asking or implying. Perhaps you can begin by qualifying. The savings of the Russian people, or the Russian government?

TF

Lisa said...

Russian Central Bank Gold Holdings - March 2014

Edwardo said...

Jojo, methinks you need a New Drug.

Roacheforque said...

If the intent is to bypass the dollar, you will accept a certain amount of dollar inflation (even some ruble deflation) to accomplish this. This is Putin's Paradox. But a producer nation with vast energy resources can handle this, and after all, the USA is paving the way for its own demise ...

Some people believe there are both vast oil reserves AND vast gold reserves on Russian soil. Have you seen the movie "The Saint" and it's parable of the Giant, Trediak?

One point, and it may not be the one Ender chooses to make, is that Russia's reserves (savings in oil and gold) are not stored in NY or London, they have ALWAYS been well within Russia's borders.

You do not poke the sleeping bear. He will remove your face with a single glance of his paw.

- R

Roacheforque said...

Lisa your links are priceless. I have not gotten through the EU paper yet, but I thank you for your contributions.

Testing said...

@ Poopyjim and MM

"But counties not operating on expriv are already subject to some form of similar "monetary rules"; balance imports with exports or you end up with a deficit that has an impact on your local economy."

"There is no way that you're going to shoehorn some kind of paper solution onto all those savers who just had their savings destroyed either. You can't dictate from up high what producers will put their surplus into, and they aren't going to put it into any SDR or other snake oil having just been horribly burned. FG is the only thing that can work."


As I live in a non expriv country, which has had some major ups and downs in the last... well, since forever, what you say is absolutely right. Those "monetary rules" are very, very strict and since our politicians are reluctant to obey them, we are constantly suffering the consequences, over and over again. I assume that concept is hard to master for the people and politicians in the US, thus leading to the wrong idea (that you are immune to "monetary rules")

The slight difference is that we perceive our "hard money" to be others´ "soft money" (i.e: USD, EUR, GBP, Swiss Franc, etc). With each passing crisis we become more and more reluctant to save in our own currency. I find it quite easy to process the part of using gold as a SoV instead of currency-based assets. It makes perfect sense, the same it makes sense to everyone here to save in USD (mostly) or EUR.

Testing said...

The mechanics to buy USD or EUR here is similar to buying physical gold. We have supply constraints, as you would have with physical gold, limited availability, it´s not advisable to store in banks or any similar institution subject to Government influence, etc, etc.

Nickelsaver said...

The part worth exploring is – how will this be different than the petro-dollar.

Why would they want to break anything? Why do they need Gold?

Where is Russia’s savings?


I think we know that the petro-dollar is or has been a direct leg of support for the paper gold market. So in terms of the ruble taking part of that action, I see no difference. It actually may even add a leg of support to paper gold, in the short term.

In terms of the petro-dollar being replaced by the ruble, i dont see that happening. If as you say, it could start a domino effect to other surplus countries, I think the dollar can make up for those losses with the printer. And certainly at some point we could enter the HI loop as a result.

That is an intriguing thought. If say, the petro-dollar went out of fashion gradually rather than suddenly, we could see HI before the crash of paper gold could we not?

Got me thinking...

M said...

@ Phat

You said "That's not speculating; that's flat-out gambling. Though there may be a bounce, I just couldn't imagine ever doubling down on a losing position. I forget the handle but there was another dude here with that similar philosophy; and heeee'ssss gone. "

The pain of missing a gold stock run after the fact would be worse then the pain of getting screwed if it doesn't happen.

Plus I have enough physical for it not to matter necessarily. As long as physical does decouple which I think it will. Eventually..

Soros said that gold will be the last bubble. And I think he meant paper gold.

Roacheforque said...

Yes, but I don't think the Ruble is seeking to support paper gold.
It wants the support of trading partner currencies that support physical gold, not debt, a more free gold like structure if you will, in terms of governing the currency dynamic.

For Russia to assist China in it's "debt holding" problem is part of this change.

I do believe that freegold centric producer nations are beginning to get the picture. This blog has informed more opinion in the world than we might think, as well as the principles which guide it, and their successive history online.

And of course dollar HI is part of that equation as well.

Roacheforque said...

One last thing. Land mass is very important in terms of diverse resource potential. Resources whose importance will change through technology - energy impact as well.
Russia, China, India Brazil, etc....unknown production value yet to be tapped.

Nickelsaver said...

Roach,

I think you miss the point. A reason to support the gold market is if you can still get physical through it. And how about getting more bang for your ruble by not having to go thru the dollar.

Lisa said...

Roacheforque -

Thanks, but most of them are Woland's references - I'm just helping him out with the clickable links.

But I agree that Woland's suggestions are always worth the time.

Edwardo said...

For your consideration.

Sam said...

@M

I appreciate your contrarian investing strategy but that is not the lesson of sunk costs. The lesson is that your actions moving forward should not take into account previous personal losses at all. Even mentioning them means to me that they are affecting your decision.

For instance the odds of a roulette wheel hitting black 10 times in a row are very low, but if the wheel has already been spun 9 times, and landed on black all 9, the 10th spin is not affected by those results. It is independent and has the exact same odds of landing on black, red, or green as a single spin.

Had you bet red on the last 9 spins you would feel frustrated and unlucky. You know in your heart and mind red must hit eventually and should have hit already.. Emotionally it would kill you to not bet the next spin and see the wheel hit red. But this is all nonsense. The next spin could care less about the last nine. It's why I'm convinced most humans should be savers not investors. Emotions have no place in investing and we are all emotional creatures.

Phat Repat said...

M
"The pain of missing a gold stock run after the fact would be worse then the pain of getting screwed if it doesn't happen."

Been there done that. I have, over time, developed a system that is purely mechanical; buy, buy stop, sell, sell stop, along with a few other inviolable rules. And even with that, on rare occasion, I find myself second guessing and thinking I just might be smarter than the system, smarter than the market. The end result is always the same; pfffffttttt... Emotion is THE number 1 account killer.

Back in the day I read a book by Dr. Alexander Elder (Trading for a Living) that helped me understand and adjust to all the mistakes I was making. I found the psych stuff to be the most valuable.

Ender said...

Under the Kremlin?

Sir Motley Fool, in the article, the lawmaker is quoted as saying “We will sell rubles to consumers of our oil and gas, and later we will exchange rubles for gold.” Either someone messed up on the translation, or this lawmaker has not thought this through.

The bank will sell Rubles - true. The savers in the economy will trade surplus Rubles for Gold – maybe. Will the bank trade Rubles for Gold? Never. At least not publically. The debt that remains on the books of the bank becomes political influence. As long as this currency is held, the gold in the debtor economy is safe. If the surplus economy seeks settlement, you will see the debtor currency devalued against Gold.

The only reason for the Russian bank to hold Gold is to give its currency credibility with the shrimp - who think currencies are backed by Gold. As we know, the Ruble is not backed by Gold, it’s backed by Oil. The Gold is just for show.

If the Russian Gold holdings continue to grow, that will be based off local mine production. The question is, why would the state sell its Gold when the Ruble functions?

When the lawmakers state that the Ruble will be convertible into whatever the savers want, this can be fulfilled without using an ounce of their 1k tons of metal. It will sit still.

Remember that Gold sits on the balance to judge currency management. If they manage the currency well, the savers – in the Ruble economy - will not think twice about Gold. Or, better yet, if the Ruble is gradually made strong, savers will hold Rubles to get more Gold in the future! They will become investors!

@Nickelsaver, A key difference between the Petro-Dollar and using Rubles to buy oil is time. The Petro-Dollar pushes everything into the future. Rubles for Oil is a done deal today. No one would want to replace the Petro-Dollar.

@Roacheforque, Yes. No future, settlement today.

If private deals for Russian oil do not make future promises, what happens to the futures market?

Ender

M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
M said...

@ Phat

"Emotion is THE number 1 account killer."

Agreed. Are you implying that I am taking an emotional stance on this ?

M said...

@ Sam

" Emotionally it would kill you to not bet the next spin and see the wheel hit red. "

I don't see it that way. I was forced out of the housing bubble due to timing/family/BS in Canada when I was 19 years old. I have endured this thing ever since. It still hasn't popped.

I will not allow myself to take a back seat to this potential bubble. I would rather lose 40% of my money completely then make the same mistake I did 10 years ago.

So this is it. I have already accepted the consequences if it doesn't go my way.



Dim said...

Any thoughts on what FOA meant by the last post on The Gold Trail regarding 9/11?

"Truly, this is an unspeakable turn of events and only moves our events timetable that much further ahead."

Did FOA think it was going to speed Freegold up or slow it down? Interesting..

Woland said...

Great link, Edwardo! IMHO, that could easily be a permanent
addition to the sidebar on the blog.

BTW, since you're a "5 year watcher" ( like me ) today is the
first day when the Spain 5 year yield is LOWER than its US
counterpart. A few others are right there as well. Sadly, the
10 year still has about 40 pips to go. What does it all mean?
I don't know, but I have a theory……..

Roacheforque said...

Nickelsaver,
Are you saying a reason to support the paper gold market is to get more physical gold through it? With Rubles?

Why not support (surplus nation) trading partner currencies that are trying to make the break from supporting US debt by supporting physical gold (not the paper gold market)?

Maybe I am missing the point, but Ender makes a good one:
The debt that remains on the books of the bank becomes political influence. As long as this currency is held, the gold in the debtor economy is safe. If the surplus economy seeks settlement, you will see the debtor currency devalued against Gold.

Or perhaps some gold outflow. What is described here is an acknowledgement that under a (dare I say Freegold) transition debt does have a useful function as these currencies are now free to act as they should. Yes, political influence of a currency (debt, acting as it should) is a desired trait in freegold I think, much more desirable than the current dollar trap.

Breaking the current dollar trap I think is the larger point, not accumulating more physical. I do think Russia has much more gold than publicly reported on CB balance sheet anyway, and VAST reserves of not only oil but also natgas.

This is a bold move to challenge the dollar centric system in this way, and the lawmaker quoted has been spun as a bit eccentric among more conservative and politically correct diplomatic circles. So I would not rush to the coin shop just yet.

However it IS interesting that the recent Reuters interview with Rickards has him not mentioning the SDR at all. Not a peep. But a strong Euro is covered in much depth as is a $9000 per ounce dollar devaluation.

Is there an interim solution in the works to thwart the organic onset of freegold?

Ahhh but so many prior false starts to the freegold conundrum. Which will be the real catalyst?

Just keep poking the bear.

Edwardo said...

Woland,

Spain and other's 5 year yields are making a post crisis low even as the U.S. 5 year is threatening to make a pre-crisis?
high. As Shere Khan might say, at least in the Walt Disney rendering of The Jungle Book, "How interesting."

I look forward to hearing your theory should you choose to share it.

Phat Repat said...

M
Heck, I'm cheering for you. The longer the system goes on the better since I enjoy playing the market. Hope it works out for you.

Motley Fool said...

Sir Ender

I agree, either it was a mistranslation, or not very well thought through. The idea was simply to show that some of their MP's are advocating trading oil for gold.

Perhaps there is some flaw in my thinking that you would be kind enough to illustrate. You say the key difference lies in the trade being settled today, as opposed to in the future. I don't see it.

Let me create an example, and you can point out where I go wrong? I will try and keep it simple.

The russian CB creates 1 Billion Rubles. If it stays in their economy it is inflationary.

Let's say the euro wants to buy 1 Billion Rubles worth of oil. They need to pay in Rubles, so their exchange $20 million euro's at the market rate. The europeans use this 1 billion rubles and buy oil.

So now the russian central bank has the original 1 billion Rubles back, and they have 20 million euro's, and they have sold some oil.

If we assume that they just keep cycling this 1 billion euro's they created initially to sell oil, then they will have foreign currencies piling up on their balance sheet. This is no settlement.

Ok. So they would want to get rid of these euro's (and other currencies) I assume, to get settlement.

What can they buy? Bonds of the euro? This is no settlement. Commodities such as copper and steel? The size of their oil market would drive the price of these commodities too high and there is risk in price volatility. Gold? At current market prices this volume of gold buying would drain so much physical supply from the market that it could not be supplied.

So how is it that they settle in the present moment? I do not understand.

Thanks

TF

Testing said...

What I sometimes find hard to grasp is the concept of why now and not in 500 years?
I know this topic has been gone thru many times but is there any sort of measurable indicator that some trend, physical stock or anything accountable that points to FG as a resolution?
I mean, www.freegoldclock.org would be something like that. But, is there anything else besides that? What would need to happen in order for FG to be unavoidable? Dollar HI? Collapsed COMEX warehouses and ETF stocks?

Because it looks sometimes to me that we are basically relying on too much theory and not too much empirical results or, at least, progress.

Dollar HI is an event that would trigger FG, but it´s a separate event from FG that does not involve physical gold directly. Dollar Hi would trigger so many things that I would try no to focus on it in this post.

"FG could happen over the weekend, without any previous hints" I find that a very convenient way of avoiding a cause-effect analysis. FG has to have a cause, and that cause should be measured in some way.
Gold has to flow in the upper and lower tiers and I´ve read many times in this blog that gold stocks in the main warehouses (Fort Knox, London, whatever) are still mostly intact, that CBs have kept their overall stocks at the same level, etc. Well, if that IS the case and the upper tier is still satisfied some way (which way?) and paper gold satisfies us shrimps, I can´t find the strain that would prevent gold flowing to either tier. Where is the measured cause-effect of a moves towards FG?

The system has a physical limit. Like a black hole or singularity. If we were to assume that gold stocks at main warehouses are going down big time, now I can see a strain. And I don´t mean ETFs, I mean CBs and IMF here. There are thousands of tonnes flowing the wrong way, for a few years now. A drop in 800 TN from an ETF stock in 2013 doesn´t compensate that. But that would be contradicting many parts of Another and FOFOAs comments/blog. any comments on this?

If I´m blatantly wrong, please correct me.

Anonymous said...

Testing,
I second your well-articulated concerns. While I am sure I have not RRTFB enough times, I, too, see brilliant logic, explanations, and theory, and I have gained greatly in understanding of things monetary from Fofoa, but I don't see the connection with a "why now" in the material world of cause and effect, other than the unstaisfying tautological "explanation" that that which can't continue, won't. Wow, thanks for that, but so far, that's not working out so well, notwithstanding that, from a real world (physical plane) rather than a nominal perspective, CB and commercial bank balance sheets don't really balance, and trilions are created with the press of a button by the Fed to bail out international banks.

I recall a post many moons ago, I believe it was by a Japanese fellow who used some "name" that was a string of letters and numbers that I think began with "ae." I miss his appearance on the blog. Anyway, he said something like he saw FG more like the looming presence outside the system that put pressure on the existing system to change lest it default into FG. I thought that view had a lot of merit, especially since, in my view, FG imposes too much discipline on government and businesses and substantially shrinks the maneuvering room they need for their lies, fraud, strip mining the rubes, wealth extraction and worldwide games of Risk for realz. (Yes, calling giants "super producers" is fighting words as far as I am concerned. Super extractors, sure.) Even just looking historically since WW1, when have the nations gathered to create a new IMFS and gotten it right? It's all patchwork to cobble together enough credibility to let the same BS games continue.

Paradoxically, this latest installment of Fofoa, explaniing that the giants don't need FG because they already have the price advantage at least for large bulk sales (and, btw, probably don't care either because they have sufficient tonnage that even at the shrimp price, their families could lead lives of great comfort and luxury for a long time even were they to fail to produce anything), further undermines the case for a real world manifestation of FG, because I see no constituency of people who have both the vision and the capacity to make FG happen, once everyting falls apart. The "superorganism is evolving to the FG result," is hardly an explanation.

Phat Repat said...

It's certainly possible that the 'new system' won't be identical to what is proffered here. However, there is no doubt the current system has outlived its usefulness. The heaping of complexity upon complexity, not unlike our tax code, guarantees a disruption to what currently is. That which cannot be sustained, won't be.

What form that will ultimately take is an unknown; though FG offers what appears to be a reasonable compromise. Especially when considering the alternatives. We shall see...

Tommy2Tone said...

Testing, Sir Tagio,

Perhaps rereading the series from last year Fofoa put out called My Candid View in the month of August.

I will say, if the sentiment being expressed in FG land of late is a kind of reverse indicator, we may be getting closer indeed :)

I laugh now because I was so worried it was happening last fall. pffft.

I only have anxiety now to finish prepping and I hope/think that will be by this fall. Once I get there, I'm going to spend no more minutes thinking about timing and get back to living in the most ex priv fashion as I can.

Motley Fool said...

Sir Ender

Perhaps you are thinking they should use those foreign currencies to buy Rubles that are free in the market, and then retire those Rubles, and in doing so strengthen their currency?

TF

tEON said...

What I sometimes find hard to grasp is the concept of why now and not in 500 years?

Look what has happened in, only, the past 5 years. Essentially what is at the crux of all of this is the USD. Well, in the past 1/2 decade or so - the US has started monetizing their debt (buying their own Treasuries) while the rest of the world has moved away from supporting US debt (limited or totally ceased buying Treasuries). This is unsustainable for any prolonged length of time. It has a time-limit that is supported by historical precedent. If TARP and QE2 weren't a big enough telltale - then nothing will be. To avoid default on gold delivery the paper gold market has expanded since the Nixon Shock. Right now, Paper Gold denominates physical Gold (let's say 100:1, it could be more). In a purely market-sense the true value of paper gold is heading toward 'worthless' - and the marketplace will continue to realize this - so, the price of paper Gold 'dropping' seems like a clear sign of how imminent it is. "All paper will burn" is initiated at the very centre of the monetary system - i.e. Gold. Will it go to FoFoA's prophesied $500? before being halted? Possibly but the fact that physical gold will be, essentially, un-obtainable will be the 'it' the blog references. I don't put a lot of weight on Russia, China, financial corruption any more etc. - I think much of what really goes on is invisible to us ('under the surface'). Yes, the ability to keep this charade going appears to be waning severely. But - no one can give you a date (if you are looking for some sort of formula for Freegold) - but, I think it is accurate to say that FG is closer than it has ever been. The fact that it has gone on longer than very prescient individuals like Another/FoA ever anticipated - only means the eventual revaluation will be significantly higher. It is certainly more obvious than it was 16 years ago if a Dumbass like myself can see the ginormous teetering edifice (with mucho thanx to this Blog and its host!). No one knows when it will crumble, but you don't want to be near it when it does (the ROW is also saying to themselves). I suspect those patient PGAs will be grandly rewarded one day... sooner rather than later. But don't bank on that - or anything. How's that a non-committal conclusion. :) Best of luck.

Franco said...

Testing said: "What I sometimes find hard to grasp is the concept of why now and not in 500 years?"

There is a piece of information that doesn't point specifically to FG being the outcome, but it clearly shows that shit is going down now. Below is the net foreign purchases of US treasury bonds and notes plus agency bonds:

-Annual average from 2003 to 2012: $513 billion
-2013: $115 billion

So basically foreigners are done supporting the US dollar. I'm guessing that there hasn't been a stampede (aka hyperinflation) yet because the dollar is still used to price petroleum and whatnot, plus nobody wants to be "the one" who started the avalanche.

Anonymous said...

Jojo,
I think you've turned a new phrase of wise words capturing an entire ethos to live by. It would be good for as many of us as possible to get ahead of the curve by starting to live "in the most ex-priv fashion" we can. Thanks for that.

FWIW, I don't worry about the "timing" of FG, other than to think that overall it would be a good thing if it happened, and helpful to moving toward a more sustainabilty-oriented, less waste-based economy. The only timing I worry about is the timing of my own preparations for the ex-priv, post-peak oil world.

Jeff said...

There's a constituency, and you aren't part of it, so yes, you don't know why now, or when. The people with the power and vision to 'make it happen' will do just that, and you will know after the fact. Call them giants, or big players, or elites, but they don't answer to you, and they work out of sight. So keep on looking for that convincing piece of evidence, and keep on sharing your unfocused skepticism here, because what's really important is convincing every single insignificant pundit that something they have no control, and little enough understanding of, will definitely happen before lunch.

Since some people think they've debunked the A/FOA view, how about a Blondie quote instead?

Blondie: The monetary system is at heart all about the dynamic that exists between net producers and net consumers. The "big players" referred to are the biggest net producers.

How the system operates is always at the discretion of the net producers because they always have the choice of how they save their surplus.

The act of "hoarding" their surplus outside the system is always an option, and if exercised this option removes the facility for the net consumers to consume this surplus at their discretion. So the producer has the discretion to give or deny the consumer discretion.

Therefore it is always about the "big players", Freegold or not.

Freegold is removal of the consumer's discretion to consume the surplus of others, because the producer's surplus is placed outside the system beyond the consumer's reach.

Currently the banking system is merely facilitating the exercise of the consumer's choice to consume, but it is the producers saving within the monetary system that are making such a choice possible.

jakship said...

RE: Sir Tagio’s doubts about the constituency for Freegold:
If commenter Coolhand (at
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/25514-The-Post-Market-Economy-Part-I-Chaos-on-Planet-ZIRP-Eric-Janszen/page2 )
has it right, this constituency will be the creditors who can either take gold at c. $28,000 per oz. (as the EU did w/ Cyprus) or try to squeeze blood from turnips. Or is Coolhand getting something wrong here?

RE: FOFOA’s prognosis for the end of the great gap between prices in the Giants’ vs. in the shrimps’ markets.
I should think that there will always be some quantity of oz., above which a Giant would have to pay a large premium per oz. above the going rate, just as one will have to pay a premium per Rembrandt, or Nobel Prize medal, well above the “going rate”, if one is trying to quickly “corner the market” for such objects. That is to say, there will always be some limit to the ability of a market to absorb unusually-large buy orders, without entailing a price spike, just as all markets will experience a price drop whenever presented with unusually-large sell orders.

(BTW, like Phat Repat, I’ve been preoccupied with working (raising funds) to acquire more physical at lower prices; but with me, this has absorbed so much time as to have left none for posting comments here.)

Ender said...

Kind Sir FOFOA,

Is there an article in the archives that outlines what happens if an oil state devalues oil against its own currency? Basically, what would happen if a state made the offer of accepting either payment in full in its own currency or offered a discount for the free flow of gold metal – like 50% its own currency and 1/2000th oz Gold metal per barrel.

What is the impact?

Ender

Jeff said...

Ender, the closest post I know of would be:

Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 13:19
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)

A Noble Purpose, This Oil For Gold

which is too long to c&p, but might serve your purpose.

DP said...

Wot?

No C&P?

Roacheforque said...

Ender,
Isn't this kinda what the USA did with the ME, except that it wasn't the "producer of oil" state, but rather the "producer of global reserve asset" state (thought so highly of at that time) and isn't it also what some in Russia are proposing today in the first part, but who knows about the second).

An interesting thought indeed.

As for the timing of whatever is coming I have stopped measuring that long ago, but ... whatever is coming next still seems a riddle that changes with each passing day.

At least we can say we live in interesting times.

I will predict that FOFOA's next post comes before freegold. That much I feel quite confident of.

Anonymous said...

Jeff,

Unless you are part of that inside group (and if you are, please share!), I would say you don't know either, and hypothesizing about what they are or are not doing is kinda pointless. :)

I can't speak for Testing, but I do not read his post to be a question about "timing," or a demand for crystal clear, smoking gun evidence that FG is "The Plan." Nor is timing or crystal clear evidence my concern. My concern is "some evidence" beyond theory, logic and extrapolation. And by evidence I mean evidence that 100% FG will be implemented, not evidence that the $IMFS sucks or is gettign closer and closer to collapse.

Pretty much everyone on this blog believes in the inevitability of the collapse of the $IMFS, and that FG with gold as a reserve currency/means of settlement of trade iimbalances is a brilliant replacement for the current system, and has the merit of actually effecting a final settlement which will have the salutary effect of causing nations to balance their trade with one another. The question in my mind is where is the evidence/why does anyone think that yes, 99-44/100ths percent, THAT is THE system that WILL be implemented?

THIS is the "leap" in the FG story that I don't see strong evidence for. Oh, yes, FG makes brilliant sense, it answers all the questions, but where is the evidence or, as I put it, the constituency, that brings it about? Even the superorganisim needs worker ants to actually get things done, where are these worker ants? The timorous Saudis? I don't think so.

Yes, "The Plan" is almost certainly a Big Secret. But when you look about, what you find are people like Jim Rickards touting SDR's as the next IMFS. Yes, he admits, the SDR will have to have some component of gold, any successor system will, to have any credibility. How much of a connection seems up for debate. Super dooper debtor nations like the US would no doubt like to see the gold "backing" ratio as low as possible, i.e., the fiat to gold ratio as low as possible, getting the most leverage possible off of gold. My guess, and it's only that, would be that 20% is the bare minimum they would be able to get away with to have any credibility. (Even that will bring about a hefty purchasing power increase in gold, although far below the pure FG purchasing power of 55k.) Assuming China and other BRICS have a place at the next Bretton Woods style conference, they would surely like to see a higher ratio.

The higher the better and the more FG-like.

Maybe FG results when the paper gold market dies and nothing else is required. If that is the case, why won't paper gold soon return thereafter or, rather, why will that state of affairs last for some appreciable time? What happens if after that crash, the nations agree upon some Rickardian SDR system with gold as a 20% - 30% component of the "basket"? If that occurs, won't FX style trading with some form of paper gold be required? If so, it seems that there will be some FX gold, as there is now, which suppresses the "true" FG price.

Motley Fool said...

Sir Tagio

I think your request for evidence that we will have freegold is not without merit.

I can think of a few things that falls in that category, but is is mostly circumstantial.

For one, we have the words of Another and his friend, explaining how this project has been in the works since the sixties( or earlier), and the structure thereof. So the first point of evidence is the matter of his credibility.

Over the course of their talks Another made many claims about the inside market structure, etc.

As documents have been declassified we have seen him proved right in many of his claims, and some of those may still be substantiated in time.

For me this is something that increases his credibility, and that of the story he laid out.

The explanatory power of this thesis is also remarkable, in that it explains in a clear and logical fashion what has transpired in the past. Things such as us not having a third oil crisis, that Europe would withdraw their support, that QE would be implemented, etc. That these things have happened ( or not happened as may be the case) again I find credible evidence that other claims also have merit.

In terms of action, all it would take for freegold to transpire is for the ECB to continue using MTM. So far so good! :D

Also, from the narrative their current actions make sense.

I am not certain you will find the kind of hard evidence you are looking for. But, I think if you read between the lines, the evidence is there.

I'm sorry. I know this is unlikely to satisfy you.

TF

Ps. I critiqued JR's SDR scenario earlier in this post, if you are interested. VictortheCleaner has a good post up on why a fixed standard will not work as long as the ECB uses MTM. In a word inefficiency.

Nickelsaver said...

Roach/Ender

As brainwashed cult-member, I tend to view the actions of the giants, not just in terms of what is expediant in the here and now, but rather as they relate to the coming paradigm shift.

I also don't believe the currency managers of the world are oblivious of what's ahead. Therefore, I would assume that any actions taken by these entities, at least to some degree, are done with the thought of being optimally positioned for the reset.

So if you knew that oil was going to suddenly get a lot cheaper in terms of gold, that gold was going to be revalued to recapitalize the system, and that your currency (no matter what the current metrics says its value is now) will undergo a repricing. What would you do position yourself?

My simple mind tells me you would sell as much of that oil now for gold right now. Gold is savings. Oil is a good.

Roacheforque said...

Sir T,
I have also had doubts, despite many good points made by FOFOA that got me to about 98% .... but that 2% always lingered.

Then it seems there was a post, which at the time nailed the inevitability of FG for me, but I cannot remember it now.

That is the trouble with more complex material (and lots of it). You are left with greater confidence at the time a brilliant point is nailed, but this later fades.

I have not concluded as to whether this is due to the megabytes of new input received daily, or the degradation of data stored in a 55 yo brain.

Anonymous said...

MF,
Thanks for those comments, I agree that the things you cite are strong circumstantial evidence. And you are right, I wish we had some current evidence that the plan hatched back in the 1960s was alive and well besides the "consistency" of current events with the Another /FOA analysis and the explanatory power of that analysis, but I don't expect to see it.

Anonymous said...

Roacheforque,

Yeah, I have the same probs with my 58 yo brain. Plus, American life is too much like ife at Totleigh Towers - one damn thing after another. It disorganizes the mind.

Roacheforque said...

Nickel,
I cannot argue that logic. As long as there is ample demand.

I would say Giants on the whole are a group that has "little to gain, much to lose". They already have more than they need, so naturally they are driven by fear of loss.

So the major heartburn for Giants is a massive deflation (i.e. unplugging the Depression we are in now, which is masked by the current hyperinflation of paper) which would create their next worst nightmare (really a tie for 1st) social unrest and chaos.

I believe they will use any means to prevent this which they believe will be effective. But of course the paradox here is that if they use too much gold or oil, it could cause the very crisis they are trying to avert.
China's gold accumulation is certainly rocking the boat, but are they, or Russia, really ready and willing to tip it over, or do they just want Captain Euro to steer it in a different direction?

In any event, paper seems the tool of choice.

Indenture said...

M: ”The pain of missing a gold stock run after the fact would be worse then the pain of getting screwed if it doesn't happen.” These are the words of a speculator. ‘I have no pain because I save in gold’ are the words of emotion detachment. “Stoic”, as Woland has stated, is the zen location I try to achieve.

Lisa: ”But I agree that Woland's suggestions are always worth the time.” Yes Ma’am.

Testing: ” What would need to happen in order for FG to be unavoidable?” China would continue to buy more than annual gold production. The world would run out of paper priced physical gold. Breaking Point.

Nickelsaver said...

I would also draw a distiction between giants, currency managers, and government/politicians. Old world giants are net producers who are not concerned about "getting ready" but simply staying the course. New world giants, are only giants if they are positioned or nearly posotioned. Currency managers acting on behalf of nations are not giants, but if they understand the the world as it is, would think and act like a giant. Politians will simply do what is expediant. Who can say what that is at any given momont.

Roacheforque said...

http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_04_04/Russia-prepares-to-attack-the-petrodollar-2335/

Most timely in light of recent discussion.
Happy Friday!
- R

Michael Martin said...

This article is quite dated (back in 2009) and it might have been posted on this blog before. Apologies if that is the case. However with the recent discussion of Russia and Freegold, it might be another data point:

G-8 ‘World Currency’ Coin’s Creator Seeks Russia Participation

Medvedev: “Perhaps one day something similar could appear. You would be able to hold it in your hand and use as a means of payment.”

Aside from the not so subtle choice of metal for the coin, some other things of note:
- Medvedev presented the coin at the G-8 at the time
(the US just recently managed to boot-out Russia from what was supposed to be a G-8 summit)
- a vague connection to Kennedy
(issuing currency composed of precious metal; though silver was used in the Kennedy half-dollar)

The coin, resembling a euro, is 29 millimetres in diameter and weighs 15.55 grams of pure gold, Sassoli said. As many as 20 gold and 150 silver coins have been minted. Sassoli said the G-8 organizers and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi’s government asked for 13 gold and 10 silver coins for the summit.

Sassoli said he has already received proposals from collectors to sell them for 12,000 euros apiece, though the project so far does not have a commercial interest, he added.


Although the 12,000 euro is probably just a numismatic amount for a "rare issue" of this coin, it strikes me as quite a premium. But maybe that's because I'm just a shrimp who fusses over the a few bucks over spot whenever I shop for gold.

Ender said...

@Sir Motley Fool 5:45am. What is being settled? Here is another way of thinking about it. Remember, oil back the Ruble. Because of this, the Ruble will function.

Now, the Russians print up 1 billion Rubles with which they pay their servicemen that all take vacation in Euroland. They spend their earnings. The merchants then visit the bank to redeem for local currency. The bank’s biggest customer, EuroGas, needs to pay its gas bill. It exchanges local currency for Rubles which it takes back to Russia. The Rubles were printed into existence (free), the servicemen found value, the merchants found value and the Rubles came back home.

Who is providing settlement in this scenario?

It should be clear that it is the Ruble. Oil backing pretty much means that anyone that holds a Ruble will be able to find settlement!

But, you might say, this is inflationary in the Russian economy! Well, of course it is. In every economy there is inflation of the currency. That is the hidden tax we all pay. The difference here is that Russia collects that hidden tax!

You might also say, but the Russian bank just ends up with foreign currency on the books! Well, my friend, this is what they want. This is what’s used for political influence. This is what a strong currency buys you. This allows Russia to buy servicemen in foreign countries.

Does that help?

Keep in mind that a stable oil (energy) price will work wonders and bringing stability to the currency amongst the inflation.

Ender

Ender said...

@DP, The link you post is the right math, but I question the approach.

@Roacheforque 9:59am. I’m not quite following your reference.

@Nickelsaver 11:46am. There are many that have read the words of Another. And, for the simple mind, which is more valuable: Gold, or a functioning currency?

@Roacheforque 2:02pm. Semi-Good link. I do not see a PetroRuble. I do not see an attack. I see defense.

Ender

Ender said...

Fellow Metal-Heads,

I would like to call attention to DP’s link 9:25am above. The concept discussed is devaluing oil against gold. Please visit the link and refresh your memory. Let’s now put this in the context of the Ruble.

Oil is backing the Ruble. The Ruble will provide settlement in any currency or metal. Russia Marks it’s Metal to Market. And, Russia doesn’t need Gold (see first statement).

This puts Russia in a neutral position with both its oil and currency. Enough Rubles will be created to meet the needs requested by the new customers. This process will be neutral with regards to inflation and the new currency holders will be surprised at the currencies’ strength.

In defense of their currency is Gold. It will not be used in the traditional sense and the defense will not come from the state, but from the citizens. The Russian state has no reason to drive the price of Gold. The only source that will drive the price of Gold in the Ruble economy will either come from its own citizens or from a foreign source that has too many Rubles and wants to settle for Gold. When this happens, the Ruble will be devalued against the metal. Yet, it will still buy as much oil.

At this point we have an arbitrage that will be exploited. This arbitrage will force the movement of Gold metal. If settlement drives up the price of gold in Rubles, those holding Gold will sell, take their Rubles outside the economy, exchange for local currency, buy cheap Gold and bring it home. Metal will move on the legs of a million shrimp!

We all know that the current dollar system cannot withstand a high price of Gold. We also know that anyone that disturbs this delicate balance is singled out. Thus, we will not see any foreign currency block conspire to run the price of gold in Russia.

In my mind, I see the game at ‘check’.

Ender

PS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Woland said...

It's NICE to be the oil swing producer! Ask the man who first
invented the idea, over 100 years ago. ...but……can Russia
become "the" swing producer? That's a much more complex
question. {;<)>>

John said...

Now it getting interesting......

And in a quite possibly related development we notice that the US made mention of it's willingness to tap it's SPR (Strategic Petroleum Reserve). Sideshow or another last minute act of desperation?

Woland said...

and one more thought for the weekend:

If I pulled out a phone directory from a small town, and selected at random 5 names, what would be the chance that,
if I came back 10 years later, those five would have formed
an organization listed in that same directory.

Well, in 2001, Jim O'Neil, then at Goldman Sachs, coined
the name BRICS. Now, about thirteen years later, they are in
fact acting more and more like an "organization" , though he
never singled them out based on that probability.

Another interesting observation, which may or may not have
been made elsewhere, is their degree of complementarity.
India is probably the world's largest holder of (unofficial) gold,
and China, Russia, South Africa and (to a lesser extent) Brazil, are all producers. China and Russia are food importers,
and Brazil is a major exporter. South Africa and Brazil are
close to energy neutral re: import export, but India and China
are big importers, and Russia is, (in you include gas with oil)
the world's largest energy exporter. In minerals, they are all
exporters except India. I think that, the deeper you look, and
despite certain potential frictions (China/India re: borders) the
more this group looks like it could act as a stand alone
counterweight to the dollar and euro groupings, as there is
very little they "must have" from the West. (excepting, of
course, Facebook and Twitter)

In addition, China has announced plans to alleviate certain
global "choke points" (Panama Canal, Malacca Straits) by
bypassing them with new canals; the former via Nicaragua,
latter via Thailand. These will be enormous and lengthy
construction projects, and will surely place many thousands
of Chinese nationals, and all the services to support them, in
new places. ( all in all, a much more interesting Soap Opera
than, "As the World Turns")

Motley Fool said...

Sir Ender

It helps in that it clarifies your meaning. However it is not helping me see the sensibility in this train of thought.

"What is being settled?"

International imbalance in the plane of real goods. This is the whole problem today is it not? And this is what the freegold methodology solves, does it not? This overhang of debt from your neighbours as opposed to Real settlement.

"Who is providing settlement in this scenario? "

Real settlement? No one. All that happened here is that Russia gave away some oil or gas for future promises. (In addition to their initial gift of purchasing power to their employees at the expense of their countrymen).

"You might also say, but the Russian bank just ends up with foreign currency on the books! Well, my friend, this is what they want. This is what’s used for political influence. This is what a strong currency buys you. This allows Russia to buy servicemen in foreign countries."

Oh? How is this political influence working out for the Russians with their dollar and euro holdings?

I think the real political influence goes to the debtor here. He can always say he will default on the debt, and get all those prior goods for free as he now reneges on his promise in paper.

If their purpose is to buy some foreign politician, does it matter if they have foreign currency as long as their Ruble is freely tradeable for other currencies?

But I think you mean the political influence of holding another nation's debt. I say this is effectively no influence at all. In fact it makes you subservient to their monetary policy for all your savings.

TF

Ender said...

Let’s compare one key point.

The US prints currency, pays its servicemen and they spend that currency in Euroland. The merchants need euros, so they exchange the dollars at the banks. The banks look to settle this debt and go back to the US. They say “please give us euros or Gold for these dollars.” They are met with “The dollar is our currency and your problem. We deal only in dollars.” When they complain that the dollar banks will not settle, the US banks say “We don’t really see a problem.” They go on to explain that all the Open Public Markets around the world accept dollars in exchange for they’re commodities. They instruct the Euro banks to – go spend your dollars there – buy your oil, corn, wheat, etc in dollars.

What’s the difference? It should be pretty obvious. The dollars are not settled in the US marketplace, but rather stay in circulation around the world.

Does this help narrow my point?

Based on this single concept, you get dynamics that expose profits and costs for all the players involved.

One key profit is that the US can remove the economic effect of an imbalance of trade by exporting dollars. Another key profit comes from creating future commodities in the Open Public Markets that suppress the price. Anther, the burden of taxation through inflation is carried on the backs of every individual that hold dollars – it’s worldwide.

One key cost is that it forces local currency inflation in any economy that accepts the dollar for commodities as those dollars are exchanged for local currency. There are many examples of runaway inflation in export productive states. Note also that the profits for the dollar system are the loses here.

There are many ways of looking at the profit and costs of dealing with dollars in the local economies. If you would like, I’m sure we could find more. It might be a good exercise to find more. This will help make obvious the function of settlement.

Basically, the dollar fakes its settlement and taxes the participants. The Rubble will be strong because it will actually provide settlement.

Note, when I mention political influence, do not let that distract you from the main point above.

Ender

Woland said...

Hi TF;

Would you then also say that when Quatar helped purchase
the Muslim Brotherhood victoryin Egypt at the cost of many
billions (of dollars) and that then, when Saudi Arabia undid
that with their own 9 billion contribution (of dollars) (NOT in
either case, in their own sovereign currencies), and thus
changed the ruler in a country of 85 million souls, that they
were really just the slaves of the dollar? Yes, all the while
they were, no doubt , slaves to US monetary policy. Did it
bother them, or change their behavior? I frankly doubt it.
It depends on what else you have in your holster, non?

Ender said...

Briefly on political influence.

The State prints currency into existence. The state raises funds through taxation and inflation. The State chooses how to spend the funds.

If you have the ability to create currency, you have access to what that currency buys. If you want to buy social programs for the poor, you do so. If you want to buy tractors for your famers, you do so. If you want to buy defense weapons, you do so. It’s the State’s choice. When spending, the State must be careful to maintain confidence in the currency.

Anything that the State buys defines the characteristics of that State. If the State finds it valuable to buy the friendship of another state using its currency (whatever form it takes), that is what I refer to as political influence.

Anyone in this forum should be able to point out a dozen ways the dollar system empowers political influence around the world.

Fundamentally, this is the ultimate prize. It’s not Gold. It’s not currency. It’s not profits. It’s who do people listen to. It’s shaping mankind in the way that you want it shaped. It’s exposing your value system on a global scale. It’s getting people to do what you want.

Yet, maybe you see the ultimate prize differently. Maybe I see this incorrectly. Form your own theory and investigate for yourself the supporting evidence.

Ender

Motley Fool said...

Hiya Woland

As I said, if that is the path one is speaking of then it doesn't matter where you get the currency to do so, only that you choose to spend it that way. The example you highlighted is irrelevant to my point on savings in foreign currency.

TF

Motley Fool said...

Sir Ender

"The State prints currency into existence. The state raises funds through taxation and inflation."

In actuality the raising of funds through inflation Is the printing of currency into existence, the effects of which only come later. This creation is causal. So I disagreed with your earlier example observation of them collecting the inflation, after handing out created funds to servicemen. This is not the case.

...

I find your comparison strange, since you deviate between the two examples. In one you say that local euro companies need Rubles to buy gas, in the other you say the merchants go to us banks with dollars.

I think if the euro merchants turned up at the Russian banks they would get the same response - it is our Ruble but your problem.

Alternatively both banks would be willing to do a forex exchange for the spreads.

Your examples for comparison are inconsistent. :(

Perhaps it is simply because I am ignorant. Do us banks not trade other currencies for dollars? Have they no need of dollars?

I suppose it comes down to the central bank at the end of the day. Rubles are not accepted, dollars are. Banks will exchange Rubles however as they know that at the end they can always go to the Russian central bank and trade those rubles for something else. The US central bank I suppose then does not do this?

What this means is at the end of the day the Russian central bank ends up holding a lot of foreign currency.

We have now discussed a few ways this may happen, but the result remains this same.

You say this is settlement, I disagree. I think it simply the pileup of foreign promises. No worse or better than dollar pileup.

I suppose one difference is that in this case the Russian central bag sits with the bag of promises, as opposed to everyone in the world who sits with the dollars. At the end of the day these europeans also need their local currency, so dollar pileup would be in the ECB in this case, unless they shift that to some other CB in currency swap.

Still. Settlement to me means both parties receive value, not promises. So, I see no settlement.

With your talk of a strengthening Ruble, I thought perhaps you mean they store this value in the exchange rate. By buying free rubles on the market with these foreign currencies and then retiring those Rubles. This would be settlement, but comes with a whole host of other problems. I do not true see settlement happening in bonds of other counties. And I do not see settlement being possible in commodities or gold. So I thought you were talking about this fourth option.

It seems I was mistaken.

This conversation continues, and while I try my best to respond to the points you make, I seems you have ignored almost all I have made.

TF



Ender said...

Who will be the first to test Ruble settlement?

Will that be Iran?

First off, in order for settlement to work in the Ruble system, Russia must be both Gold and currency friendly. We should be able to find political statements with regards to open ports. There must be no perceivable taxation on either Gold imports or Gold exports and no limitations on currency exchange.

Hypothetical: Iran sells Russia ½ million barrels a day in Rubles. Iran, for the next 5 years takes virtually all of its settlement in other currencies. With those currencies, the Iranian population is fed.

Yet, we know that Iran can run a surplus economy based on their energy exports. To do this, they have to be allowed to bring it to market. The Rubble economy will empower this. Together there is a profitable relationship. The Ruble has found function outside the Russian local economy which we have discussed the advantages of above and Iran will once again be able to trade on a worldly scene. This partnership simply makes sense.

The beauty here is that there is more oil to back the Rubble. The world can now see two sources. Japan will take notice. China is more interested. More oil means better stability for the Rubble during settlement.

On the flip side, settlement in Gold will occur and this will be very profitable to Russian businessmen! Eventually, Rubble will bid for Gold. That Gold will come out of the Rubble ‘trade zone’. Anywhere were the Rubble can be exchanged for Gold will be a path of opportunity.

The question worth exploring is; will a giant be able to convert its excess into Gold so that it’s taken full settlement?

The dynamics suggest that this will be possible. The arbitrage opportunity in my previous post should give you a hint. If the Ruble is stable in oil, Gold will flow into the Ruble ‘trade zone’ simply because it’s profitable for the shrimp to move it. What is available to move, will move.

What I would expect is capital controls in the non-Ruble zones to prevent the outflow of Gold. This has already been discussed in the press with regards to currencies. If Rubles are not used to purchase oil, the oil will be turned off. This implies the ability to settle currencies. Gold is an unspoken byproduct.

In order to trigger the flow, the price of Gold in the Ruble trade zone must be higher than in the other zones. Slowly, because it’s better to acquire at lower prices, the gold moves. Because the physical Gold market is so small it will not take long for the global price to start rising.

I would expect that the economies that consume Ruble economy energy will be a little more friendly with regards to this flow. I would expect that any country that Marks to Market their Gold reserves will be in that club.

I get the feeling that the capital controls will occur naturally – supply and demand.

Ender

Ender said...

Sir Motly Fool,

Your points all valuable. Do not let me make you feel otherwise.

Let it be known that I could very well be wrong. I have clearly been wrong before. I would not make a financial decision based upon anything that I write. I write my observations based upon my point of view.

I encourage everyone here explore all points and draw your own conclusions.

I have stated what interests me. I will monitor comments to see if there are others that can see what I’m seeing.

I live a busy life.

Ender

Dante_Eu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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