Saturday, May 7, 2011

Costata's Silver Open Forum


Listen up all you brave silver warriors. Uncle Costata has a story to tell you. In our first-ever guest post written exclusively for this blog, Costata lays it all out in stunning detail. And he invites you all to hit him back with your very best shot. Enjoy! -FOFOA
Smiley

Has the silver market been cornered.... AGAIN?
by Costata

This open forum has one main purpose. To place a narrative before you, a story of a market cornered, to discuss, dissect and critique. If you read on you will see that I’m not without competition in the weaving of stories about silver and the silver market.

All works of fiction require “a willing suspension of disbelief”. As Samuel Taylor Coleridge suggested, if a writer could inject "human interest and a semblance of truth" into a tall tale, the reader would suspend their skepticism concerning the implausibility of the story.

So, in order to make my narrative worthy of your indulgence I have to present a sound case that it is possible. Otherwise why would anyone “willingly suspend disbelief”? At the same time I must cast doubt on the tales of the other storytellers. You see, my story is based on a view of the silver market that is diametrically opposed to theirs. To suspend disbelief in my story requires that you disbelieve theirs entirely.

But before we proceed, I want to make something crystal clear. This is a story about a corner of the flow of silver, not the aboveground stock.

The comments are open and un-moderated. All are welcome to discuss this story and, if you wish to do so, the other storytellers offerings.

What is a corner?

I have made a few changes to the definition offered by Wikipedia in order to make it more directly applicable to physical silver. You can see their original wording here.

To “corner the market” is to control enough of a particular commodity to allow the price to be manipulated…..The corner operator hopes to gain control of enough of the flow of the commodity to be able to set the price for it.

If you are looking to corner the flow in a market one of the risks that needs to be evaluated is the possibility that any existing stockpiles could be mobilized against you. Obviously it would be very helpful if any stock was highly immobile. More on this below.

A quick review of the history of attempted market corners offers two lessons. Most attempts at a corner fail and those that were successful lasted for a short period of time. Let’s take a brief look at a recent, reportedly successful commodity market corner. Again from Wikipedia (with my edit in bold):

On July 17, 2010, Armajaro purchased 240,100 tonnes of cocoa. The buyout caused cocoa prices to rise to their highest level since 1977. The purchase was valued at £658 million and accounted for 7 per cent of annual global cocoa production. The transaction, the largest single cocoa trade in 14 years, was carried out by Armajaro Holdings, a hedge fund co-founded by Mr Anthony Ward…… This example demonstrates that 7 per cent of a perishable good is enough to allow profit taking via cornering a market provided demand is inelastic and the need for the commodity is time sensitive.

Obviously this hedgie with the sweet tooth was targeting industrial cocoa users to deliver his profit either directly or indirectly (from other speculators). Presumably the industrial users could not pull their bids and wait him out. They had to accept higher prices.

This too is a story about a corner of a physical commodity. "Paper silver" plays a part in the price manipulation strategy and in booking profits, but the corner itself is in the physical metal.

The Hunt Brothers

Let’s stroll down memory lane and revisit the Hunt brothers' silver market corner. I won’t recount that fascinating tale just now but you can read about it here.

Instead I want to focus on how it ended for the Hunts. So let’s ask someone who was there, an expert trader, the one and only Jim Sinclair. (My emphasis)

(Posted: Jan 16 2011 at jsmineset.com)
"The Comex board of directors unilaterally declared their written silver contract null and void. That is exactly what occurred when the Comex went to "sellers only" on Silver at a $53 bid, offered at $55 (Yes, that was the floor spread). With no transactions accepted that were buyers and sellers orders only, it left the Comex members to make the bids. Silver simply collapsed and platinum started its $1000 daily limit moves on the downside. It was that which collapsed gold…

Position limits are a joke compared to "sellers only," meaning nothing to any commodity traded worldwide. All position limits will do is reduce the volume on US exchanges. It is so easy to get around that with non-US subsidiaries. The international non-US exchanges will celebrate this development.


Ouch! The rules are already on the CFTC books that empower them to protect the Comex members, and the exchange itself, from any would-be manipulator let alone someone operating a full blown corner. All they would need is the will to use them.

(Incidentally, many people seem to forget that Comex is not a major physical silver exchange. It’s a paper price discovery mechanism that handles less than 5 per cent of the physical silver traded annually.)

In this narrative the Comex paper silver contracts are one of the “legs” in the strategy to manipulate prices and book profits. The LBMA is also an important part of this story in both a paper and physical silver context. More on the LBMA below.

Back to the Hunts. So, the moral of the Hunts’ travails is that if you are going to include the Comex in your plans to corner a market you had better make sure the regulators aren’t going to intervene.

Regulatory capture?

Is it possible that regulators in some markets could be under the thumb of the operators they are supposed to regulate? While you ponder this question, a few links to pass the time.

>> Ex-Advisor To GS’ Charitable Giving Unit To Direct TARP Funds
>> Congress Shares Secret With America, Goldman At Fault In GFC
>> JP Morgan Finances Jefferson County Into A Sewer
>> Wachovia Joins Mile High Club
>> Bank Of America Does Laundry On Mexican Housekeeper’s Day Off
>> Morgan Stanley Stores Silver - In Parallel Universe
>> Goldman Sub-Primate
>> Abacus Adds Up Losses, For Some
>> New Volcker Rule, Don’t Allow Yourself To Be Used As Stage Prop
>> Bear Stearns Wishes It Had Made Bigger Campaign Donations
>> 50 US AGs Prepare To Robo-sign Settlement Agreement
>> MERS Reduces Banks’ Costs, Economizes On Truth Too Judge Finds
>> Bernie Madoff Goes To Jail, Wall Street Doesn’t
>> AIG Begins To Resemble Insurance Company Again
>> ENRON Auditors To Spend More Time With Family
>> Ratings Agencies’ Verdict: “Pirates Of The Caribbean” AAA
>> Lehman Brothers Fulds Despite Repo 105
>> JP Morgan Asks “Bernie Who?”
>> JP Morgan Visits Milan, Milan Wishes It Hadn’t
>> Bush, Clinton, Bush Deny ’Revolving Door’ In Washington Jobs
>> Obama Promises Change – Teleprompter Fired For Lying

The Silver Market – Stock and Flow

When I offered a definition of a corner I mentioned that “it would be very helpful if the stock was highly immobile”. If the silver stock is immobile all the aspiring operator of the corner has to worry about is the flow of physical silver.

There is heated argument about the correct estimate for the total amount of aboveground silver. Bob Moriarty of 321gold.com weighs in here with his estimates which are similar to the conclusions of this analyst. Others argue these estimates are way too high. You will have to do your own investigation in order to decide whom to believe. As a quick 'n dirty tip, if they cannot show you their methodology, look elsewhere for information.

From my research it seems to be a safe bet that the number is in the billions of ounces when you include silverware, old silver coins, jewelry, bullion coins, small bars and ETFs. In other words, more than enough to overwhelm a corner if it flowed freely. However, most of the owners of the silver stock either hold it for its utility (use value) or they are “buy and hold” investors.

Will this silver stock flow? I hope we can agree that the answer is ‘No’ unless the price is high enough to overcome sentimental attachment or the individual owners of that silver experience a sharp decline in their income and/or standard of living. So for the purpose of this story we are assuming the bulk of the aboveground silver stock is not mobile at the present time. No immediate threat to a corner operator.

This wrap up of the World Silver Survey by Mineweb says: “Last year world silver fabrication demand grew 12.8% to 878.8 million ounces…”. According to Eric Sprott, in 2010 the total supply of mined and scrap silver amounted to 951 million ounces. We’ll take Sprott’s figure as the size of the flow that is central to this story of a market cornered.

In passing I would also like to point out that when analysts talk of “consumption” of silver they should mean “total industrial demand minus recycling”. This silver is consumed insofar as it is not financially viable to reclaim it (at present). Other holders of silver variously hoard, wear or utilize it in some way but it is not “consumed” and remains part of the aboveground stock. While the stock remains immobile, this non-consumption demand also competes for the flow with the consumers of silver – the industrial silver users.

Another issue I hope we can agree on is that silver, like a host of other commodities, has been and remains in a commodities bull market. The primary trend since 2002/2003 has been upward. Within that upward trend there has been lots of price volatility and potential profits for a savvy trader on both the up and down price movements. A corner operator could have dramatically increased their profits by accentuating the moves in both directions. The central theme of this narrative is market manipulation, not price suppression.

Silver Price Suppression

The belief in a scheme to suppress the price of silver is pervasive among silver bugs. If suppressing the price of silver was the sole objective of a silver market manipulator then my narrative collapses. (You will see why shortly.) So before we proceed further a few brief remarks to the “suppression” camp.

Analysts such as Ted Butler have been sounding the suppression klaxon since 1989 but I ask: Why look for a complicated explanation when supply and demand offers a simple, perfectly adequate explanation?

Throughout the period, such sell-offs that did occur, as well as announcements of planned sell-offs, caused immediate declines in the price of silver. Indeed, the Wall Street Journal reported in September 1976 that "[w]hen the US government makes noises about selling silver from the federal stockpile, futures traders start unloading futures contracts in speculation that such a sale would depress prices.”

Silver was a natural short play in the 70s, 80s and 90s. There were, collectively, huge amounts of silver overhanging the market in the form of old coins, national reserves, public and private stockpiles. That silver stock was mobile. The low price of silver over many decades had also made primary silver mines uneconomic. The silver that did come from the miners was mainly a by-product of their pursuit of other ores. Hence the silver was extracted and sold with little regard to the price of silver. All in all, a short seller’s dream come true.

I would argue that 2002 was the watershed year for silver, the year when the US Defense National Stockpile was nearing depletion as a result of the Silver Eagle coin program. That opened the way in 2003 for silver to join the long cycle commodity uptrend along with other industrial metals, agricultural commodities and so on. This in turn created the opportunity for a well-resourced trader to safely play either side (long/short) of the silver market without fear of a sudden influx of metal.

In this story, the end of the supply overhang also opened the way for an attempt to corner the flow of physical silver as the remaining stock was becoming increasingly immobile while demand from industrial users was growing strongly.

Ted Butler (and, to be fair, many others) allege massive naked shorting on the silver Comex. Ted lays out his case here. From what I have read it appears that in Ted’s narrative this massive naked short position is held, primarily, by JP Morgan and perhaps HSBC. This is how Ted’s tale ends—the Comex shorts will be chased over the “cliff” by the longs in a massive short covering squeeze - just like these bison:

“Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump bears witness to a custom practiced by native people of the North American plains for nearly 6000 years. Thanks to their excellent understanding of topography and of bison behavior, they killed bison by chasing them over a precipice and subsequently carving up the carcasses in the camp below.”

I want to be upfront with you. I think Ted and his cohort may prove to be dead wrong, finding themselves in a role reversal falling head-first with the bison and anyone else beguiled by their story. We will return to Ted’s story a little later when we consider the lack of transparency in the silver market and why the circumstantial evidence suggests that Ted and his cohort are dead wrong.

Let’s deal with another allegation which has been floating around, that JP Morgan inherited a huge naked short position in silver with their Bear Stearns acquisition. I’m not going to dwell on this for long. The fact that JPM was indemnified by the Fed on unknown terms for losses on this acquisition makes this a non-issue in my opinion. If there are losses I think we can safely assume that they will be picked up by Wall Street’s best little buddy, the American taxpayer.

The Central Characters and the “Supporting” Cast

The main characters in this story are the Bullion Banks, Miners, ETFs, Refiners, Mints, Retail Investors and the Industrial Silver Users. As this narrative unfolds it should be quite obvious that the only silver market operators with the capacity to make this story come to life are the international bullion banks. All that would be required of the other market participants is that they behave predictably. Their co-operation would not be needed by a manipulator. Let’s face it, the less people “in the know” the better.

(Incidentally if any reader needs an introduction to the precious metal fabrication and supply chain, Bron Suchecki of the Perth Mint has provided an excellent series of posts you can access here - top left of screen.)

The jewelry makers are peripheral to our story except insofar as the rising gold price has resulted in the increased substitution of silver for gold in the fashion jewelry business. So this segment of the market has added to the demand pressure on the flow of silver as well. In my opinion the gold jewelry market is much smaller than the official figures suggest. As Jim Sinclair has often pointed out gold jewelry in many Eastern countries is sold by weight and purity – it’s wearable ‘bullion’, not simply a fashion statement.

Miners have seen the price of silver rise to over US$40.00 per ounce while the Mineweb report (linked above) indicates that cash costs are currently $5.27 per ounce. Others estimate their average cost, by the time the silver is on its way to the refiner, at up to $15.00 per ounce. (The cost estimates put out by miners are notoriously unreliable. There are plenty of financial incentives for a mining company to understate their costs. Murray Pollitt discusses this issue here.)

The predictable behaviour a corner operator would expect from the miners is a desire to lock in some of their profits on silver through hedging. If a corner operator also advised the miners, provided finance and banking services to them and facilitated their hedging strategies it would give the operator a huge ‘edge’, a vastly superior information feed compared to other players in the silver market and more opportunity to influence the directional flow of silver.

A savvy corner operator might also see “the writing on the wall” in these high profit margins of the silver miners. A pointer to the “use by” date for their physical silver corner. Over the last few years silver ore bodies and old workings that were not economic for half a century have become financially viable.

Refiners produce a range of products in addition to the standard larger bar sizes. They produce flake, shot etc… to meet the specific needs of their fastest growing, and largest, customers - the industrial silver users. (Make no mistake, the industrial users are the most important customers in this market.) The challenge of matching their output to the demands of customers, with quite different needs, makes the refiners a potential choke point (a supply bottleneck) that a well-connected corner operator could exploit opportunistically.

The retail investor demand for silver has also been growing strongly. It has been reported that last year this segment accounted for around 10 per cent of total fabrication demand. Physical silver investors are price sensitive but many tend to just accumulate over time, dollar cost averaging their original stash. Many of these investors are “buy and hold” folks. From a corner operator’s perspective retail silver investors help to immobilize the stock, compete for the flow and they are somewhat predictable.

Institutional investment in silver generally flows into the ETFs, ETPs and mining shares for a simple reason. Many of these investors are prevented from holding physical metal by their investment mandates. Even if they wanted to they could not hold physical. I concede that mandates, and the laws that give rise to them, can be amended. (In order not to get bogged down in a “will too, will not” argument I hope others will concede that I have described the status quo.) Overwhelmingly pension funds and their ilk tend to the long side of markets they invest in. You know what I am about to say don’t you? They are predictable.

You are probably getting sick of the word ‘predictable’ by now but just try to imagine that you are a character in this story too. Imagine for a moment that it’s real. Behaving predictably might not be such a great idea if you are attempting to trade or do business in a cornered market.

Ed Harbuz CEO of the Perth Mint explains here why running a Mint is such a challenging, customer-driven business. Despite unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary the large Mints, by their actions, can be seen to be honest, conservative, generally prudent and not inclined to speculate.

The Mints' demand for silver is ultimately driven by retail and wholesale customers. Mints tend to have a “feast or famine” sales pattern that makes it difficult to forward plan capital expenditure programs. They certainly cannot expand their overall production capacity quickly. Hence they are also highly predictable and another potential choke point that could be exploited in a corner.

Industrial silver users are the single biggest market for silver, purchasing approximately half of the annual flow of silver. As mentioned earlier, this large market is growing strongly. A corner operator can rely on industrial users for profits when prices are rising. Here’s why:

“An important factor to understand in the case of silver is that demand from the industrial sector tends to be quite inelastic. This means that buyers have few options and have to pay at prevailing prices.”

In this story the industrial users would be the main target (victim?) of a corner operator.

When production bottlenecks occur at the Mints and/or the Refiners a corner operator could take advantage of the ignorance of most retail investors and play on the widespread belief that there is a shortage of silver. (I’ll return to this topic later.) The corner operator could also rely on many (all?) of the dealers to talk up any rumour or urban myth that sells silver. With premiums like these the dealers have every incentive to support the hype, hope and hysteria that often surrounds the retail silver investment market these days.

The Exchange Traded Funds (ETFs) are a segment of the market we should pay close attention to in our unfolding corner narrative. The ETFs that offer redemption in physical silver tend to have a minimum redemption quantity that is much higher than most small investors can easily afford. In most cases the shares trade freely but the metal in many of these ETFs sits still. Consequently these ETFs add to the stock while increasing its tendency toward immobility and they compete for the flow of silver. As Kitco reports here ETFs have become a huge part of the silver market (my emphasis).

The Web site for SLV shows that as of May 1, 2006, the amount of silver in the trust was a modest 653.17 metric tons. Flash forward to Thursday, and the Web site showed total holdings stood at 11,053.2 metric tons, or 355.4 million ounces, with total assets listed at $17.3 billion.

Through April 21, CPM Group put global silver holdings in 13 precious-metals ETFs around 605 million ounces…….For 2010, additions to global ETF holdings were 123 million ounces, Rannestad reported. In 2009, ETF holdings rose by 155 million ounces.

The ETF additions in 2010 represented 12.4% of total global supply of silver of 987 million ounce (including not only mine output but other sources such as recycling), Rannestad reported. Much silver is consumed by industrial uses. Excluding all fabrication demand, the amount of available silver was 142 million, meaning the ETF demand accounted for some six-sevenths of this.


SLV stands out from the other ETFs in three enormously important ways. Firstly, its structure and prospectus allow it to impact on both the physical and paper silver markets in ways that most other ETFs simply cannot. It’s also vastly larger than any other silver ETF or ETP. Lastly the SLV silver is literally both a stock and a flow at the will of the Authorized Participants. To illustrate, you may have heard Saudi Arabia referred to as the “swing producer” in the oil market. The Saudis are said to have the spare capacity to keep supply and demand in balance. SLV can fill that same role in the market for physical silver. In this story it does precisely that, with a slight twist. It is used pro-cyclically by a corner operator to amplify volatility in both directions, up and down.

Okay, I know that some observers confidently claim the SLV is just a paper façade with no actual physical silver. No amount of audits or bar lists will ever convince some of you otherwise. So be it. For those readers with an open mind, I invite you to consider the possibility that they have the physical silver they claim. For the purpose of this story it doesn’t matter if that physical silver is encumbered with multiple claims nor if SLV holds some paper silver for periods of time. In a corner the crucial issue would be who has the strongest claim to that SLV silver stock and the most influence and control over the flow of physical silver into and out of SLV. The industrial silver users obviously had some concerns about SLV’s potential clout. By the end of this narrative they might wish it had been drowned at birth.

Prior to its launch, the industrial silver consumers lobbied hard to try and convince the SEC to deny approval for this new physical-silver ETF. The Silver Users Association, whose members process 80% of all the silver used in the US, wrote a letter to the SEC in February 2006. It warned the SUA ‘opposes the creation of a silver ETF because of the concerns that doing so will require the holding of physical silver in allocated accounts, thus removing large amounts of silver from the market.’

And indeed the industrial silver consumers’ fears have come to pass. In mid-December 2010, SLV’s holdings hit an all-time high of 352.5m ounces of silver bullion! To put this into perspective, global silver production in 2009 ran about 700m ounces. American stock investors, by buying shares in SLV, have already absorbed the equivalent of half a year’s worth of all the silver mined in the world.
(My emphasis)

As I said earlier SLV is different to other ETFs. Below FOFOA replies to a question I posed in February when we were discussing the idea of a silver open forum.

”Very interesting. Considering that ‘demand’ exerts no pressure on an ETF to grow in size, one has to wonder. Physical contributions are the ‘will’ of an owner or purchaser of physical silver to encase it in SLV in exchange for easily tradable shares. The price-tracking function is simply a matter of market arbitrage. But of course this fact is not understood by the public. Very interesting.”

The custodians for SLV are HSBC and JP Morgan. Authorized Participants create and redeem baskets of SLV shares. You can find a list of them here (on page 27).

Before we end this examination of ETFs, and SLV in particular, I would like to leave you with a question to ponder. Has the price of silver become more volatile since SLV and the other ETFs started to gain traction in the silver market?

Martin Armstrong describes the typical behaviour of commodities as they move through an uptrend in the extract about wheat from this essay.

"In other words, we are about to make another thrust upward into a new trading band where the $6-7 level should become the floor. This is how commodities ratchet themselves higher that some call inflation. What is actually taking place, there is a very broad trading range that becomes the normal volatile swing between the peaks and the lows. The commodity will bounce off the floor and ceiling of this range until it starts to finally expand the trading ranges." (My emphasis)

Now let’s examine the Bullion Banks as we look into a would-be corner operator’s three most lethal weapons (aside from unlimited ‘free’ money) – opacity, reach and information.

Opacity, Reach and Market Intelligence

Since the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act some international banks have become monoliths in banking, broking, dealing, commodity trading, derivatives, research, private exchanges and OTC markets. Even a vigilant, well-resourced regulator would struggle to prevent “regulatory arbitrage” by banks, traders and speculators operating in multiple exchanges and markets in a number of legal jurisdictions. And vigilant, well-resourced regulators appear to be a little thin on the ground these days. The global activities of these banks are opaque to regulators.

The bullion banks have the very best ‘intel’ on the silver market. They have connections into every nook and cranny of this market from miners to Mints to margin traders. They also have the opportunity to make use of their own unallocated pooled silver accounts through fractional reserving. You can read about how the bullion banks are able to leverage these pools here.

As we mentioned earlier the Comex is basically a paper silver market. The leverage in this market has been widely discussed since the revelations early in 2010 by the team at GATA and CMP group’s Jeffrey Christian. (It is less widely known that ANOTHER revealed, thirteen years earlier, that the leverage in the LBMA was routinely 100:1.)

Let’s clear up another popular misconception. This one concerns the LBMA. As Bron Suchecki explains here, the LBMA is not an exchange. It is an association. Transactions among LBMA members and their clients are private. Bron also reminds everyone that the LME does not trade physical silver. For anyone interested here is a list of the Market Making members of the LBMA.

Some silver market analysts focus on Comex reports and the BIS bank participation report in order to draw conclusions about the positions of the bullion banks, and others, in the silver market. Ed Steer of Casey Research writes:

"The third graph is the number of US and non-US banks...and you can see the point that the CFTC began to withhold the number of banks so that they could protect JPMorgan. They started withholding this data when Ted Butler discovered the Bank Participation Report back in 2008...and within months, the CFTC pulled the data………… and the last graph is just the two US banks on their own....and their respective long positions [non-existent] and their monstrous short positions. It's easy to see that JPM runs the silver price show." (My emphasis)

Let’s assume that the information Ted Butler pounced on was as valuable as Ed Steer and Ted Butler seem to think. That line in Ed’s report I highlighted in bold prompts me to ask: What does it tell you about the rest of the public data feed if useful data you unearth is “pulled”?

The allegation that JP Morgan, HSBC etc have massive naked short positions in the silver market rests on a range of published data from regulators and bankers but primarily on the Comex reports. As mentioned earlier the silver Comex is a market that accounts for only around 5 per cent of the physical silver traded annually.

One of the tactics recommended by some analysts to break the Comex shorts is for all of the longs to stand for delivery. So readers may be interested in this explanation of trading between longs and shorts on the Comex from Metal Augmentors’ ‘silverax’. Here are a couple of snippets:

“…. the longs cannot force delivery on the shorts, but the shorts can force delivery on the longs. Yes, most everybody has it bass ackwards!”

“…..the delivery timing is almost entirely dependent on the short. It is the short that announces an intention (notice) to deliver and it is the long that is obligated to accept delivery. Not the other way around.”


If any reader, with an intimate understanding of the Comex, has the time to read the ‘silverax’ essay and post a comment here I’m sure we would all appreciate an explanation of how longs standing for delivery could force the shorts to deliver. Assuming, of course, if anyone did try to force the shorts into a physical default that the Comex would not intervene on behalf of their most powerful members - like they did with the Hunts.

The volume of physical silver, and other commodities, traded on the public exchanges is dwarfed by the trade conducted in wholesale transactions, private deals with banks (eg. members of the LBMA), through OTC markets and other parts of the shadow banking system. These alternative markets are both huge and totally opaque to outsiders. As this analyst notes:

"....the big players in banking and finance are using the OTC system and have a turnover 12 times that of the “public” markets..." (My emphasis)

It appears that the volume in the OTC markets and shadow banking “dark pools” comes at the expense of both liquidity and stability in the public exchanges. As a result the price discovery function of the public exchanges may be seriously compromised. At the same time the off-exchange trading must reference, at least to some degree, the prices "discovered" on the public exchanges. What a fricken mess! But an ideal environment for market manipulation.

David Galland of Casey Research had an interesting discussion with Dr. Andrew Bogan (here) on the subject of short selling in ETFs. Apparently some of the stock ETFs have short selling levels up to 1,000% (compared to, say, IBM stock at around 1.4% short). In order to put their discussion in context, Andrew Bogan explains how ETF shares are created:

Shares can be created at the end of any day if someone delivers a basket of underlying stocks to the ETF through an authorized participant. And shares that are not wanted in the marketplace can be redeemed in kind for the underlying stocks – or in some cases cash. That's all been carefully structured and works smoothly. The issue is what happens when short-selling dominates the trading. (My emphasis)

This is the part of the interview I think we should pay close attention to, where they discuss GLD. Keep SLV in mind as you read this. Andrew Bogan again (my emphasis):

The tracking of an ETF's price with the fund's NAV, which historically has been extremely close, is totally dependent on an arbitrage mechanism. The arbitrager can make money by continuously pushing the price of the ETF toward its NAV.

The short position in GLD isn't nearly as large as it is for some equity funds – but we have looked at GLD, and it has the same structural issues, just to a lesser extent, at least for now. The short interest in GLD has fluctuated around 20 million shares. Now, GLD is a pretty big fund. With 20 million shares short, it is roughly 95% fractionally reserved…… But GLD does not have to stay at 95% fractionally reserved.

DG: Could they just say, "From here on, we're not issuing any more shares"? Would that stop the short-selling?

AB: Not necessarily, because, you know, the short-sellers are selling – in fact, it would probably exacerbate the short-selling. So as long as a fund is issuing shares, aggregate buying demand can be satisfied by expanding the fund. If they stop issuing shares, aggregate demand would get satisfied by short-sales of existing shares. So, if anything, closing the issue window should make the problem worse, not better.

…….. The bigger challenge might be if there were an actual redemption wave. If that happened when GLD was already substantially fractionally reserved, then you're back to an 1800s gold bank problem. Fractionally reserved banks can be hit with a run………You know, one of the big risks, by the way, that no one has really discussed much, is if an ETF were to have a big redemption run in panicky market conditions and halted redemptions……. it's quite possible that if redemptions were halted for any length of time, the arbitragers wouldn't be keeping the share price in line with NAV. We already know from the Flash Crash that significant price departures from NAV are quite possible for ETFs.


In his new book Matt Taibbi discusses the spectacular growth of commodity market speculation.

"We know the amount of speculative money in commodities exploded, that between 2003 and 2008 the amount of money in commodities (Ed: derivatives?) overall went from $13 billion to $317 billion, and that because virtually all investment in commodities is long investment, that nearly twenty-five-fold increase necessarily drove oil prices up around the world, putting great gobs of money into the coffers of the SWFs." (My emphasis)

In this recent post Adrian Ash quotes a figure from Barclay's Capital of $412 billion as the level of global investors' holdings of "raw materials" at the end of March this year.

Most of these predictably long funds are up against speculators and the prop trading desks of banks with near-zero cost money and virtually unlimited leverage. Opponents who will play both the long and the short side. To make matters worse, by being in these paper markets in the first place, these long side speculators expand the derivative markets to the point where they can dwarf the actual physical commodities traded. Hence the paper derivatives may be unduly influencing prices in the physical plane. ThyssenKrupp CEO Ekkehard Schulz appeared to think so in this interview with Der Spiegel (my emphasis):

Schulz: (Ed: talking about new entrants into the iron ore market) But we now know of a few major investment banks that are painstakingly preparing to enter the ore market. One of them is JP Morgan. They have been buying up big in this sector.

Later in the interview:

SPIEGEL: Who are they, and how are they preparing?

Schulz: I don't want to mention any names here, but they are banks that were also involved in other big speculative bubbles. They are currently active in our markets, hiring natural resource specialists, buying trading companies and leasing storage facilities at major ports, where they can temporarily warehouse ore for speculative purposes. They see an opportunity to make billions in profits.

SPIEGEL: By driving up prices on the ore market?

Schulz: By disconnecting prices from the real economy and the natural resources from real consumption. This has already happened with nickel. Speculators and banks are already turning over 30 times as much nickel in the markets than is actually consumed in steel processing and other areas. In the process, the price per ton fluctuates between €10,000 and €50,000. Imagine a situation like this in a large-scale natural resource market like that of iron ore. The consequences would be devastating.


Putting all of this together, the presumption that the positions of JP Morgan, HSBC etc can be known from publicly available data is beyond incredible. To suggest that you can know they have a massive naked short position without knowing what other positions they are holding outside of the Comex and how their overall books are structured, is, in a word, absurd.

Before we take a look at how some of the price action in the silver market over the past few years could have been very profitable if a corner was in place it would be remiss of me to sidestep Max Keiser’s “Crash JP Morgan” campaign. Here’s why:

1. From the Max Keiser website (here):

(Note: I changed some of the paragraph breaks to compact this but the words are unchanged. I suggest you read the comments on this post as well. My emphasis in bold.)

Dear Max and Stacy,

My local dealer,, has been running OUT of Silver,, over and over again. Gold is available,,but SILVER is in HOT demand. I cleaned him out this time.. had to go so far as buying up the sterling silver flatware,, but hey,,silver is silver. Had some Kruggerands and Eagles (Au),, sold them and bought Silver. I have NOT liked the way Gold is not climbing up as silver has been doing,, so I finally got OUT of gold.

I didn’t know that I had so much gold,, been sitting on it.. so for me,,it was like buying $9k of silver,, for only $5k out of pocket…and now,, my “metal” will be rising even faster. But I hope I never have to stoop to buying any silver ”tea sets”..as they are just TOO bulky to fit in the under-floor safe. Hahaha… I’d have to SLEDGE HAMMER them into a small ball of ugly junk…but I’m OK with that. Silver is silver. Millionaires already have all the ”tea sets” they want.

Craig.


2. This extract is from an e-mail issued by Bix Weir of The Road To Roota. Sent: 1/3/2011 (My emphasis)

Let me give all you "Newbies" a hint...by the time you finish researching and comparing silver to all the other investments out there you will go ALL IN!

When I say "All In" I mean swapping EVERY other investment alternative for PHYSICAL silver in your pocket. Stocks, bonds, pension plans...everything. This means gold too. This means other silver investments also...ETF's, silver mining stocks, silver certificates... everything.”


3. Museice is a frequent contributor to the comments here at FOFOA blogspot. This is an extract from a comment he posted recently after deciding to roll his physical silver for physical gold.

For any Silverbugs out there (I was one)….. My conclusion: What does the GSR have to do with Freegold? Absolutely nothing! If you understand anything FOFOA has been writing you will bail on silver. Not because it has hit its peak. I don't care how high it goes. You will switch because you are holding the wrong metal. End of story.
(February 18, 2011 8:19 PM)


4. In the video below Michael Maloney of GoldSilver.com responds to that old chestnut “There isn’t enough gold” with “Baloney”. He then goes on to explain why. As I watched this for the first time the question on my mind was: “If gold can do the job on its own why do we need silver?” I had already started to have reservations about the silver we were holding. This video was one of the ‘nudges’ that prompted me to dig a little deeper (well, actually, a lot deeper). It should start playing at the 3:50 mark automatically:



Later I came across a few videos of presentations by Robert Kiyosaki. (I think he wrote a book called “Rich Dad, Thanks To Your Dad” or something like that.) The video quality on this clip is terrible so I am just going to provide you with a link . It is set to start at the 4:20 mark. Kiyosaki is asked if he is adding to his positions. He talks about silver among other things and then goes on to mention who will take his positions off his hands “just before it blows” – the “suckers”. Michael Maloney, one of Kiyosaki’s advisors, is in the background stage left. Who are the suckers? I’m going to suggest a candidate for that role at the end of this post.

And wow, that Bix Weir is certainly confident when he talks to newbies, isn’t he? Quite at odds in his thinking to many of the people who frequent this blog. Some of these folks have been delving into the matters we discuss here since 1997 when ANOTHER was posting his Thoughts. I don’t remember seeing anyone here give such bold advice as Bix about gold, especially not to inexperienced newcomers. So before we look at Max Keiser’s recent exploits, let’s revisit the issue of silver shortages in order to see if Bix Weir and some of the other silver experts may be a tad overconfident about the rarity of silver.

The Silver Shortage

First a few words to explain why I keep linking to Bron Suchecki’s posts and the Perth Mint in this story. Bron has made a huge effort to educate people about the precious metals and their markets over the past few years. The Perth Mint has recently launched its own blog and updated website. They have made a real effort to increase their transparency and to communicate with their customers and the general public. Some other Mints have a mixed record in this area. This report about a recent Congressional Panel makes for interesting reading if you follow the activities of the US Mint.

The Perth Mint is also a unique ‘animal’ in the gold and silver markets. Around 90% of their fabricated product is exported. Roughly half their pooled and allocated customers are outside Australia. They are also an integrated operation having their own refinery. Lastly they refine anywhere from 300 to 400 m/t of gold each year while Australia’s local production is around 250 m/t. They are a big player with excellent ‘intel’ on the silver market both locally and internationally. [Updated per footnote 7]

Back to the shortage issue. All through the recent huge increase in the price of silver the usual suspects were talking about shortages. Well, someone forgot to tell the folks at the Perth Mint. All through the “shortages” they frequently confirmed that there was “no shortage of metal”. You can read their updates on their blog. Production bottlenecks? Sure, but no shortage. In fact they are seeking to expand their market into China.

Who was talking about shortages and tight supplies of silver? Dealers and Bullion banks, apparently. The following quote was attributed to Dave Madge director of sales at the Royal Canadian Mint by Eric King over at the KWN blog:

"We are anticipating it to become even more difficult to secure supplies in the future. This is based on what we are seeing firsthand and what our suppliers are telling us. We work closely with these banks to secure silver and they tell us there is a lot of competition.” (My emphasis)

Alex Stanczyk of the Anglo Far-East Bullion Company mentions these reported comments by Dave Madge here. Here are a couple more links discussing the mythical metal shortages: link, link.

In response to this claimed shortage the Perth Mint is spending millions of dollars expanding its capacity to fabricate silver products. You can read about it here. Recently the Perth Mint did something that should help to convince you that there is no shortage of silver.

For many years the Perth Mint funded their gold and silver inventory through a certificate program backed by unallocated pools. The deal was simple, they got their inventory funded (less capital tied up) and the certificate holders got safe, free storage of their metal. The certificates could be exchanged for fabricated metal or cash. Recently the Perth Mint announced a change to this program which you can read about here and here. If you want to be part of the pooled unallocated silver program in future you will have to pay them storage fees. Let me break this down for the stragglers, they have plenty of silver, perhaps much more than they need and they don’t foresee any shortages in the near future.

Not enough for you? Okay, let’s take a look at recycling. Another frequent claim from the shortage spruikers is that most of the silver which is consumed cannot be reclaimed. It is not economic to recycle most of the products sold that contain minute quantities of silver. This is absolutely true. But never, say never. The viability of recycling is a question of price, proximity and technology PP&T). Let’s take a look at just one product for now - the cell (mobile) phone.

According to this USGS fact sheet (2006) there is a mere 0.35 grams of silver in the cell phone they based their study on. But this cell phone also contains “copper, iron, nickel and zinc” with “even smaller amounts of aluminium, gold, lead, manganese, palladium, platinum and tin”. Cell phones also contain plastics that become increasingly expensive when the price of oil rises.

Lastly, most of the cell phones, and other electronic devices, which make their way into waste streams end up in landfills. In many countries landfill is becoming prohibitively expensive in both financial and environmental terms. These devices are a pollution issue. Schemes proposing to add a deposit or bond to the selling price of new electronic devices, in order to subsidize the cost of recycling them at the end of their life, have been fiercely resisted by industry groups. Thus far the industry groups have prevailed.

Is there likely to be a huge increase in the amount of recycled silver from electronic devices any time soon? I, for one, doubt it but it is an issue of PP&T for several metals and other recyclables in these products, not just silver. So never, say never.

Here’s another potential headwind for the “silver to the moon” guys - the industrial silver users themselves. The manufacturers of the devices which use much of the consumed silver are in cutthroat competitive markets. They have to work hard to remove costs from their products. That includes silver of course. Higher silver prices give them even more incentive to focus on cutting down the silver content or replacing it with a lesser alternative such as copper. FOFOA has an anecdote about one such manufacturer that has already eliminated silver from his process. That said, I will concede that the expanding industrial uses for silver and increasing global demand for products containing silver may fully offset any reductions that the industrial users can make.

Finally don’t forget about the potential for increased supply from the silver miners. As I mentioned earlier “over the last few years silver ore bodies and old workings that were not economic for half a century have become financially viable” at higher silver prices.

Now I know these arguments won't be enough for some of you. Read on, we will touch on this “shortage” issue one more time from an angle that might surprise you.

Max Keiser was one of the earliest, most outspoken critics of the appalling behaviour of the Wall Street banks. I believe Max coined the evocative phrase “financial terrorists” to describe them. He was also one of the first media figures to advocate owning gold bullion to protect your wealth. Kudos to Max for his bravery and willingness to speak out. This aired September 18th, 2008, and the video should automatically start at the 1:44 mark.



Since gold advocacy started to become increasingly fashionable it seems that Max decided he needed a little “brand differentiation” and followed the political dictum If you want to be a leader, find a parade and get in front of it. In an apparent attempt to capitalize on the growth in silver investment, last November Max launched the “Crash JP Morgan” silver campaign. He too argues that JPM has a massive naked short exposure in silver. He claims that they can be brought down through the purchase of physical silver by retail investors.

Nowadays Max is the self-styled leader of a movement calling itself the Silver Liberation Army (SLA). Apparently the expectation is that untold millions of people will each buy some silver and the ensuing supply squeeze will cause JP Morgan catastrophic losses on their supposedly naked short position as the price of silver goes to figures as high as US$500 per ounce. I hope earlier parts of my story have given you serious doubts as to whether anyone can be sure that JPM is even short at all (naked or otherwise).

Max and his SLA give us an ideal opportunity to conduct an extremely important thought experiment and to revisit the notion of a shortage of silver (one last time). This experiment is extremely important if you are holding silver because the outcome may force you to conclude, like Museice, that you are holding “the wrong metal”.

Now, for reasons best known to themselves, the “pin-up girl” of ‘Colonel’ Keiser’s SLA happens to be Blythe Masters of JP Morgan. As I said from the outset this is a story of manipulation, not suppression. But to please the SLA we’ll make ‘Blythe’ the main character in A Scenario: Profiting From A Silver Market Corner which we will come to shortly.

Position Vacant: Corner Operator – Silver Market

I realize that we have covered a lot of ground already so before we proceed any further I’m going to summarize the key attributes, resources and capabilities that I think we could expect to see in a successful silver corner operator. As a major international bullion bank JP Morgan would certainly tick all the boxes below in terms of their capacity to breathe life into this narrative (or some version of it). But then so would HSBC, I imagine, and some of the other bullion banks, or a combination thereof.

• An information advantage over other silver market participants.

• Control/influence over a vehicle like SLV that can be used to hoard a large quantity of physical silver which can then be used to affect the flow of silver.

• Intimate connections with the silver miners and insights into their finances and hedge books.

• The ability to trade against clients, produce research that encourages investors to take the opposite side of your trades and access to media outlets that are receptive to your “press releases”, research bulletins and expert commentary.

• Sufficient capital to finance the corner.

• Captured regulators.

• The ability to keep other market participants in the dark about your activities, the structure of your book, where and how you are taking profits.

• Intimate knowledge of the choke points (Mints and refiners).

A Scenario: Profiting From A Silver Market Corner

As I promised the SLA, I’m going to make Blythe Masters of JPM the central character in this scenario. (For other readers, where I have used the word ‘Blythe’ please read Blythe Danner or BB trading desk, favoured clients and likeminded BBs.)


After the GFC hit in 2008 the industrial silver users pulled their bids for silver and ran down their inventories. The price of silver collapsed to around $9.00 from its previous high over the $20.00 mark. During this period ‘Blythe’ took profits by shorting the paper silver market into the ground knowing there was no solid floor under silver until the industrial users came back in. ‘Blythe’ began to build a long (that’s l.o.n.g) position in silver as the price bottomed and began to recover.

Some of the savvy traders and speculators came in at the lows because the GSR was way above the median of the last 10 years and they saw a panicky market that they were happy to take a contrarian position in.

Once it became clear that demand from the industrial silver users was reviving, ‘Blythe’ made the final preparations for her next play, a short squeeze in physical silver with the industrial silver users as the target. As we noted above these natural longs had run down their inventories. As sales of their products picked up they had to buy, regardless of price, or their production lines would have ground to a halt.

‘Blythe’ added to the pressure on the flow, and the price, by using SLV [1] and the other levers at her disposal outside the public exchanges to drain physical silver from the market. She sold down her long silver position into the rising demand from the industrial users at increasingly higher prices.

‘Blythe’ knows the refiners are a choke point. When they shifted their production focus to their industrial clients, they cut back on their bar production for the Mints and the wholesale market. This eventually started to cause some delivery delays in London on LBMA good delivery bars. [2]

‘Blythe’ knows that when there’s a surge in demand at the retail level, at some point, the Mints aren’t able to keep up. As silver approached its previous high the retail investors started coming in. Speculators moved in too, cautiously at first, pushing up the paper silver price.

The coin dealers and the silver perma-bulls started beating the drum about impending shortages. Eventually the Mints were struggling to keep up with the surge in demand due to the limitations in their fabrication capacity. As rumours of shortages and delivery delays made the rounds, the demand from the retail silver buyers went into overdrive. [3]

‘Blythe’ squared her books after the long physical play ran its course and she was neutral (neither short nor long). The speculators had started to pile into paper silver. So ‘Blythe’ got ready for her next play – a pump and dump in paper silver.

By this time the refiners had shifted their focus to bars as demand from the industrial users slowed. Wherever possible, the Mints had ramped up production and increased their output. Both of these choke points had begun to open up again.

‘Blythe’ had another ace up her sleeve. She knew the silver miners’ dormant hedging programs were about to come back to life long before the market knew. The miners were making noises to other parts of the JPM empire about hedging at these high prices. [5] Perfect set-up for ‘Blythe’. She piled on the shorts into the run-up to the blow off top in silver while she took the other side of the hedges put on by the miners. (That’s a future long physical position if she decides to hold onto it. It doesn’t bother her either way. She can always offload/offset it with SLV.)

The industrial silver users had begun to pull their bids as well. The traders and speculators, who took advantage of the high GSR, took advantage of the multi-year record lows and rolled some silver for gold. (Not all of it, no way. This game wasn’t over.) The coin dealers started to get nervous as their silver inventories began to build. The small fry were getting nervous about buying at record prices. The Mints ceased to be a choke point. Almost time for the dump.

‘Blythe’ painted the tape at the Comex with ever higher prices on thin volume [5] while she piled on shorts. All ‘Blythe’ needed now was a catalyst to turn the nervousness among the leveraged speculators into fear. ‘Blythe’ didn’t know or care what the catalyst was. Margin hikes, whatever [6]. As soon as sentiment shifts Blythe runs every stop she can. She tries to accentuate every dip until something puts a floor under the price. What, for example? “Who cares,” ‘Blythe’ replies, “I’m a trader."

After the dump ‘Blythe’ is neutral (neither short nor long). She’s just cruising, scalping small profits on the normal trading activity of clients while she looks for her next big opportunity. With this in mind she is watching gold very, very closely right now because she knows something most of us don't ......

What’s next? As a blogger known as London Banker used to say: “Wash, Rinse, Repeat.”

Trading

Some of you have made a lot of money trading gold and silver over the past few years. There are some enormously savvy traders out there. Newcomers who might be tempted by the profits in trading these metals should take a look at the charts and commentary that Nigam Arora provides here. That’s some volatility in those ETFs isn’t it?

So newcomers, for a moment, please pay attention to an old fool who has made every costly mistake you can think of (and some you probably haven’t). Please, do your homework. If you go stumbling around in these markets with your head full of nonsense and misinformation, margined to the eyeballs ‘Blythe’ will, sooner or later, take your head off at the shoulders. These are zero sum games that are being played. In order for ‘Blythe’ to win others must lose. This isn’t just my opinion. It’s a fact, Jack!

As I said earlier there are some savvy traders out there. I’m not one of them. I don’t have the skills or the temperament for it. Yet, I was able to predict the paper silver market’s behaviour and to get the timing just about right by drawing on this insight into rigged markets – “those who can be screwed, will be screwed” (it is a zero sum game after all).

Even if you are not a trader it also helps to read the writing of savvy traders and analysts like (in no particular order) Ben Davies, Tom Szabo, Adam Hamilton, Gene Arensberg, Trader Dan Norcini, Jim Sinclair, Alf Fields, Martin Armstrong and Stewart Thomson. There are others. Some of these fellas have subscription services. If you want to trade or invest under their guidance you can read their archives before you dive in and see the calls they have made. In some cases, over years. (If you want to put forward your own recommendations. the ‘comments’ are wide open.)

Many visitors to this blog have said that at some GSR level they are going to roll their silver into gold. Some of these high ‘rollers’ will be thrilled at the returns they make compared to plodders like me. However, I would like to point out a potential pitfall in attempting to play the GSR that I recently shared with one of my best buddies at the FOFOA blog.

There are serious risk assessment issues that need to be addressed if you are holding physical or paper silver with a view to rolling into physical gold at some desired GSR; in other words, if your aim is to obtain (via a GSR arbitrage) physical gold as your ultimate destination.

Let's walk through the risk assessment together. These days the GSR is generally calculated based on the Comex spot price of paper silver and paper gold.

To the unthinking, the GSR seems to imply some kind of direct exchange. As in 34 ounces of silver for 1 ounce of gold. Obviously this can happen by way of direct barter. But in most cases it is an indirect exchange. You have to transition through currency, selling one metal for an amount of currency and exchanging that currency for the other metal. The fact that you have been able to do this simultaneously and reliably in the past does not guarantee that you will be able to do so in the future.

Many here anticipate the eventual failure of the paper gold market. The paper GSR could be 1:1 if there is a systemic failure in the paper gold markets but that would be a currency ratio not a metal exchange ratio.

In a recent essay Eric Sprott made many interesting observations including this one:

"Now, it’s true that another potential source of supply is the very silver that investors already own......."

I agree, Eric, some of that stock could mobilize. In fact I know that some of it has already joined the flow and more of that stock intends to flow at some point. As Robert Kiyosaki told us in that video I linked earlier, that is his plan.

For those who have physical gold as our ultimate destination, the key risks are obvious. You have to weigh the risk that no dealer will want our physical silver because many other silver holders are trying to exit at the same time. Secondly, you have to weigh the risk that when you want to exchange silver for physical gold there are no sellers of gold at the paper GSR price, or even worse, no sellers at all.

I realize I may have tested your patience and forbearance with this very long post. If you aren’t yet convinced that silver is merely a ‘trade’, or an item for barter in a world gone completely mad, please take a little more time to share a thought experiment with me. You can let me know in the comments if you still feel the same way at the end of it.

A Thought Experiment

As I said earlier Max and his SLA give us an ideal opportunity to conduct a thought experiment. This experiment might lead you to conclude that in holding silver you are holding “the wrong metal” to carry you through a transition into a new monetary and financial system. If anyone wants to argue that the current system isn’t ‘terminal’ please jump right in with your comments and links. There are many ruinists* here of the hyper-inflation school (*h/t Rick Ackerman for that word). As promised we will also revisit, obliquely, the claim that there is a shortage of silver.

I’ve read a lot of the comments by Max Keiser and his SLA supporters about their campaign. Obviously I don’t believe for a moment that they can ‘crash’ JP Morgan by buying silver coins, teapots and small bars (or large bars for that matter). However, I don’t think that invalidates a thought experiment which treats the SLA as a proxy for the silver advocates and JPM as a proxy for the current system.

Many of team SLA, and other vocal advocates for silver, seem to be convinced that it will return to prominence in a new international monetary system. Others simply see it as “real money” returning to its rightful place in the world economy. Some, like Bix Weir, seem to see that rightful place as the pre-eminent “money”, the “people’s money” that will lift the yoke of a corrupt monetary regime from the necks of the citizens. I can see how firmly held beliefs such as theirs lead them to such passionate advocacy for silver.

What I can’t seem to find anywhere is a roadmap, a ‘battle’ plan from any of these silver advocates showing how they get to their ultimate goal. Will silver achieve their aims spontaneously? Is it likely to be unopposed by our proxy for the status quo, JPM? As the saying goes “if you don’t have a plan, plan to lose”. So as a thought experiment I would like to sketch out such a plan in order to test the achievability of the aims of the silver advocates.

Let’s recall that definition of a corner.
To “corner the market” is to control enough of a particular commodity to allow the price to be manipulated…..The corner operator hopes to gain control of enough of the flow of the commodity to be able to set the price for it.

The ‘military’ objective of the SLA is to corner physical silver. They want to control enough silver to set the price a lot higher and break JPM in the process. How are they going to do that if they don’t get a corner? Likewise if silver isn’t monetized how can it be part of any new monetary system they are advocating? They’re not going to get any support from the establishment. This will have to be done solely through people power.

The SLA’s war will have to be fought on three fronts. They will obviously have to corner the flow, but what if the stock begins to flow as well? Obviously I think it will flow. And more on this ‘third’ front at the end of our thought experiment.

Is there any precedent for this type of military adventure? As luck would have it, yes there is - gold. A similar war has already been fought in gold. So we can examine the recent history of gold and glean some lessons for the SLA plan and the topography of the battlefields they will be fighting on. Along the way we’ll identify some similarities and some differences in the circumstances of the two metals.

After WWII gold was effectively cornered by the US government. Over the next several decades that gold became more evenly distributed into the asset reserves of other central banks, governments and private hands. The stock of gold flowed freely during this post-war period despite the general public, in most countries, being prevented or discouraged from owning gold.

Fast forward to the present. Somewhere around 30,000-33,000 m/t of gold is in CB and government coffers while the balance, over 130,000 m/t is ‘out there’ in private hands - right now. (Whose hands? That’s one of the issues we discuss at this blog.) In this thought experiment it doesn’t matter whose ‘private hands’. Only two things matter. Firstly, this stock has not flowed despite a fivefold increase in the price of gold since the first Washington Agreement signaled the end of central bank leasing of gold to the bullion banks. This gold stock is not giving any indication that it will join the flow, quite the reverse in fact. The gold stock has become highly immobile. It is in the strongest of strong hands.

The investment demand for gold has had to compete solely for the flow of gold in recent years. This flow has been supplemented by a huge increase in the supply of scrap gold which was readily absorbed by investors. (Gold scrap topped out about a year ago.) The gold fashion jewelry market is a shadow of what it was. The demand for gold displaced in this market, by silver and other materials, had to be absorbed by gold investors as well. They did, comfortably.

According to some estimates there was a single digit increase in mine supply last year. The only countries with substantial increases in their (already large) mine production (mainly China and Russia) have also been adding to their own reserves. Gold investors have demonstrated their ability and willingness to fully absorb all of this flow by continuing to bid the price of gold up.

The gold investors also now have some extremely powerful de facto “allies” that the SLA does not. The Central Banks and Treasuries are net gold buyers again. These are fantastic allies to have. They issue their own fiat currencies so there is no objective limit to how high they can bid the price of gold. They can never “run out” of that currency either. They just need sound reasons for bidding for gold and those reasons are the raison d’etre of this blog. Now why would gold investors want this competition for the flow? For the stragglers, “over 130,000 m/t is ‘out there’ in private hands - right now.” This de facto alliance is between the private and public owners of the stock, not with those investors who are now competing for the flow.

Now let’s try to apply some of the lessons from gold’s experience to the silver advocates game plan. The SLA has a de facto ally (but a very unwilling one) in the industrial silver users. Because their demand is inelastic they have to pay the going price. They will, whether they like it or not, help the SLA with one of their key objectives—to increase the price of silver—by competing for the flow.

The SLA will need to expand its share of the annual flow of silver into the market to a level where they can take control of the price of silver. The existing SLA silver holders must hold and continue to buy in ever increasing amounts or the SLA will need a constant stream of new recruits. Rising silver prices and altruism (or anger and resentment toward JPM) are the only recruitment strategies they have, as far as I can see.

Based on gold’s ‘battlefield’ experience, in order to achieve their ultimate goals the SLA (and retail silver buyers in general) will have to continue buying as each of the following events unfolds (but not necessarily in this order).

At some price level, some of the stock of silverware and all the old coins will begin to flow into bullion. The SLA will have to absorb this flow and bid the price up. At some price the silver fashion jewelry market will collapse. There are other white metals and alloys and there is no silver bullion jewelry market to speak of. The SLA will have to absorb this flow and continue to bid the price up. At some price the scrap silver market will turn into a flood (just like it did for gold). The SLA will have to absorb this flow and continue to bid the price up. Then the going will start to get a little rough for them.

If I am right about SLV being used as the “swing producer” in the physical silver market it is already part of both the stock and flow. At some point the silver in the other physical silver ETFs will also start to flow. The sponsors of these ETFs cannot prevent this. If enough shares are presented they must tender the physical silver. If the SLA absorbs all of the flow described above, while bidding the price up consistently, they will demonstrate to speculators that there is a rock solid arbitrage opportunity. Speculators will pull this silver out of the ETFs and coin it to sell to the SLA. The silver ETFs are not ‘strong hands’. They are the weakest hands of all.

Then another problem will emerge. There are silver “traitors” outside the SLA and troops in the SLA ranks planning to “desert” at the first whiff of grapeshot. People who have no intention of holding silver indefinitely. Some, like Robert Kiyosaki, are waiting for the right time to offload to the “suckers” as he calls them. Others have a target for the GSR. When reached they intend to roll their silver for gold. Perhaps the SLA can keep up the pace of recruitment so that it adds new recruits to replace the deserters and continue expanding its forces. Another problem may emerge (later rather than sooner) for the SLA: increased mine supply.

The silver advocates take comfort in the fact that silver is used in such small quantities in each product that the industrial silver users sell, that high prices, even incredibly high prices, will not deter them from buying. That is most probably true. Score that one for the SLA. However, the SLA may have completely misunderstood the threat. The price may be irrelevant. Earlier in this thought experiment they cornered the flow and the stock. The political heat from the industrial users, including the military-industrial complex, will be ferocious if the SLA threaten the supply lines of these users. (Recall the recent controversy over China’s corner in rare earth metals.) Perhaps the politicians will stay firm. Perhaps they will only sequester the silver mine supply on national security grounds. If so, the SLA is still in the game.

If the SLA can overcome all of the challenges that have been listed so far and “bullionize” all of this silver into retail product, it will then be confronted with the most terrifying enemy it has faced in this war. Their third front – 160,000 m/t of gold. Michael Maloney explained why (indirectly) gold and silver are enemies. There is enough silver too. If necessary it could be the sole monetary metal, even if that meant dividing it into atoms. Do you understand the implications?

You see this phrasing all the time “gold and silver”. There is no “and silver”. In this thought experiment the correct perspective is “gold or silver”. If the SLA and the other silver advocates are successful in making silver the premier monetary metal then gold won't just be less valuable, it will be worthless to everyone, everywhere. Superfluous. Redundant. Just like silver is now in the monetary system. Gold now has no other purpose than being the crème de la crème of monies. If silver wins this contest gold will have no value at all except for a small range of industrial applications and as cheap jewelry. Hooray for the SLA.

Hold it right there SLA. This thought experiment isn't over yet.

The SLA needs to ask itself a few questions as we conclude this thought experiment: Who is holding this gold? Why are they holding this gold? How much power and influence do they have? What are their options and capacity to respond to the threat you pose?

If the SLA gets carried away with delusions of grandeur and the silver advocates start to achieve their aims, then the governments and Giants who hold this gold will respond. You can understand that, can’t you? The moment that silver presents a ‘clear and present danger’ to their interests, they will understand this threat. The threat that their gold is soon to become worthless. They will squash the silver bugs – like a bug. Silver would then be a losing bet for political reasons. If the SLA is clearly going to fail then the silver holders will be perfectly safe. The gold holders will simply ignore them. Silver will be a safe losing bet until game theory kicks in.

Let’s wrap this up with a final question: Are you holding the right metal?

…………………………………………………………………

PS. This is a short note about donations to the host of this blog (if Max, Ted and Bix have made it this far, they can probably skip the next few lines). Our host relies solely on donations to continue the work here. He accepts no advertising or commissions. If you have profited from the realization that silver is a trade rather than an investment you might care to share some of your profits with FOFOA by clicking on the Donate button on the right of your screen. Rest assured none of your ‘hard-earned’ will be coming my way. I’m a donor and I hope you will become one too.

Footnotes:
[1] January 14, 2011 (Link) “Provocatively about 1/6th of SLV’s total silver hoard was acquired in less than 5 months between late-July and mid-December 2010. SLV’s holdings shot up 18.9% during silver’s massive 76.0% autumn rally we saw last year. This is no mean feat! The 55.8m ounces of silver this ETF had to buy over this short span is staggering.”

[2] Delivery delays (Link) “The industrials, when they see that there is tightness or delays in shipping, will then go out and stockpile silver so their assembly lines are not shut down. We would then be talking about potentially tens of millions of ounces required for delivery to these industrial users in a short period of time. The banks have told these industrial users for years that there is no problem with silver supplies. When these industrial users lose faith in the banks, they will move right away to secure stockpiles.”

[3] Record sales of silver eagles (Link) “The US Mint sold 6,422,000 Silver Eagles in January 2011 – half as many (again) as were sold in the previous record-setting month of November 2010.”

[4] Miners hedging again (Link) ”Raymond Key, head of metals trading at Deutsche Bank, estimates that about 100m ounces of silver has been hedged in the past two months. That compares with total outstanding hedges, called the global "hedgebook", of 20m ounces in late 2010 and annual mine production of about 700m ounces, says precious metals consultancy GFMS.

Michael Jansen, metals strategist at JPMorgan, said 2011 was "probably the year of the producer hedge". He added: "This bull market in commodities is maturing to a point where, as much as supply is under pressure, you can say with a bit more certainty that in two to three years it's going to be different."


[5] Paper silver graph (Link) h/t Market Ticker

[6] Margin hikes (Link) “The maintenance margin to trade silver with leverage is now $15,000. If you bought at $4 an ounce, the cost to buy 5000 ounces, fully paid for, would have been $20,000. The value of 5000 fully paid ounces of silver is now almost $250,000.

I believe leveraged trading of silver will end before the silver bull market ends. Silver fell $7 an ounce on Sunday night. That’s a $35,000 move per contract, and more than double the margin put up by the average leveraged player.”


[7] Updated with a correction from Bron Suchecki of the Perth Mint that pointed out a factual error in the post. Refining statistics provided by Bron Suchecki in the comments on page 2.

675 comments:

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Anonymous said...

MORTYMER,

I didn't say fiat doesn't "work". I said fiat works for the ruling classes only. Not for the people.

I'm sure the Kurdish ruling classes, excuse me, I mean the Kurdish government, made a killing in the transition from the Swiss Dinar to the new Kuro currency after they set up their central bank. I'm also pretty sure that the common people lost quite a bit in the same process, due to the sudden devaluation and subsequent demonetization of the old currency. The rich converted their Swiss Dinars to commodities and physical property which preserved their value.

This is no argument for fiat money or Freegold though.

radix46 said...

How many people is ART?

costata said...

Hi All,

I'm in the process of catching up with all of the comments since yesterday. I have to agree that some aspects of the conversation seem to have degenerated.

As I said earlier I have stopped responding to individual visitors to Chez costata but I am continuing to collect comments for a series of 'collective' responses.

That said I have to acknowledge matt here. I'll extract from the comment he posted that hit me in the face like a bucket of cold water. And I mean that as an expression of gratitude. I learned something brand new, one of those Aha moments, and a new perspective on an old topic.

"Does Jamaica or Fiji have a huge problem with daily transaction dilution? No, because all the people that hold capital in those countries (millionairs, businessmen ect) save in a higher quality FIAT, not in the local currency. The result of this is there is very little purchasing power to steal through inflation by the local government. That is why there is less socialism in these countries.

The fiat medium in these countries still works great for daily transactions.

You said 'You then propose saving FIAT payment in gold to address the problem you create for yourselves in the first place.'

There is no purchasing power to be had by diluting if most of the savings is in something else. Like gold. Jamaica cant print without seeing inflation the next day because nobody with any kind of a net worth is not saving in Ja's."


Thank you matt.

When you have been studying some of these topics as long and deeply as some of the people here it can test one's patience to see the same issue raised 100 times. Though I acknowledge that long study may not penetrate a wall of ignorance constructed over a lifetime. That comment by matt is the payoff for being patient and encouraging an open conversation.

I'm genuinely grateful that people have taken the time to read my post and been inspired to share their thoughts and reactions here. I continue to be on my best behaviour, FOFOA and I invited you all here, after all. And it would be a poor host who reviled his invited guests. Anyway, my wife would be kicking me furiously under the table if I rose to the baits offered in some of the comments here, whether to me or, between our guests.

costata said...

Blogger Wendy said...

he/she (Art) is begging for it desparado:D

May 10, 2011 9:55 PM

I couldn't agree more Wendy. Both of them are. All things must pass, so will this dinner party I'm hosting with our favourite Yeti.

DP said...

@radix: Amen!

DP said...

@Wendy: +1.

Almost... Darwinian, ain't it? Almost like a guiding hand might see to it that the world organises itself in a better way, without the need for coercion to make it so.

But now I am just using silly links again. I really should grow up.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Desperado said...

@Pipe,

You wrote: "The freegolders would have you believe that someone with an ounce of gold, which can currently buy 14.5 barrels of oil, will soon be able to buy hundreds, or even thousands of more barrels of oil with the same gold ounce, even though the supply of gold and oil will remain constant. Yeah, right."

This article Permanent Gold Backwardation: The Crack Up Boom is not only very good, but it discusses how gold (and/or silver) could end up buying you more oil after the HI:

"...
But gold is different. Unlike wheat, it is not bought for consumption. While some people hold it to speculate on increases in its paper price, by the logic above, they will be replaced by people who are holding it because they do not trust paper and want to hold gold because gold is money.

Gold does not have a “high enough” price that will discourage buying or encourage selling. No amount of price change will bring back trust in paper currencies once said currencies decline past the threshold where it is obvious to a critical mass of people. Thus gold backwardation will not only recur, but at some (hard to predict) point, it will not leave its backwardated state.

In looking at the bid and offer, one other fact is germane to this discussion. In times of crisis, it is always the bid that is withdrawn; there is never a lack of offers. Another way of looking at permanent gold backwardation is as the withdrawal of gold’s (i.e. money’s) bid on irredeemable government debt paper (e.g. dollar bills). But paper’s bid on gold is unlimited.

The remainder of this essay addresses what will happen to non-monetary goods when gold goes into permanent backwardation. Note that it is possible that silver will go into backwardardation prior to, concurrently with, or following gold. I make no prediction about the sequence. In the following discussion, everything should be interpreted to apply to silver as well as gold.

Many people who hold paper but who desire to hold gold will buy (e.g.) crude oil for paper, and then sell it for gold (I will call buying a commodity for paper to sell it for gold “gold arbitrage”). This will drive up the price of crude in terms of paper, and drive down the price of crude in terms of gold. Even if this “window” were to remain open indefinitely, it is obvious that larger and larger amounts of paper will buy dwindling amounts of gold. This is because of the twin rising prices of crude-in-paper and gold-in-crude.

For example, if today the price of a barrel of crude in terms of paper is $100 and gold priced in crude is 15 barrels, then $1,500 can be traded for one ounce of gold this way. But if the price of crude in paper rises to $2,000 and the price of gold in crude rises to 150 barrels, then one would need $300,000 to trade for one ounce of gold this way. There will always be a gold bid on crude, but it need not necessarily be high."

radix46 said...

The integral of the function of zero hedgification is equal to the limit of the sum of silver chat.

Unknown said...

Hi everybody,

Also convinced of the FreeGold concept, with this latest post on the price discovery of silver, I see the same problem with (free)gold:
The price discovery. Gold is sold by miners (since the giants are just sitting on it). These are "just" businesses that want to make a living, therefore are selling what they mined. How do they sell? Well, in average above the mining costs in competition with other miners. And they do sell on some kind of market place. And this market place determines the price (the price is the price of the last accomplished trade), at least this is how we know price discovery today (and the last >5000years).
And no matter what will happen in the future there will be some kind of "delivery contracts", therefore leading to the same mess as described in this post about the silver trading.
From what I understand, after one year of reading, for a real Freegold environment gold needs to be bit away from gold holders with FIAT cash.
FOFOA is on this issue really unprecise: "blablabalb...taxes...blabla...nationalisation...."

This is the only major flaw I personally see in the "real Freegold". And I think this is also what Robert Zoellick meant when he said "Problem as a reference point is, Gold is too cheap".
If I am wrong, please explain.

Best regards,
a.d.

Paul said...

This is the only major flaw I personally see in the "real Freegold". And I think this is also what Robert Zoellick meant when he said "Problem as a reference point is, Gold is too cheap".

true
Freegold price will be much higher
problem solved

Unknown said...

@Paul: no, no, no. Your shooting much to fast.
The mining costs are to low, to let Freegold develop.

a.d.

Paul said...

a.d.

the nationalisation of all gold mines would do the job.
it is what we already do with TBTF, so would be really nothing new there ...

radix46 said...

Jim Sinclair making very strong comments on King World News about 'Giants' going big in the gold market.....

So Jim Sinclair=FOFOA then ART?

LOL

Unknown said...

Paul,

"the nationalisation of all gold mines would do the job"

this would need to be done globally, you sure that works? And as a "austrian believer" I dont have a good feeling about that ;)

Also this would be a very very disharmonic sound in the future flow of gold in the Freegold concept.

FreeGoldAdvocate said...

I agree that FreeGold will arrive when enough investors realize that paper is only a promise of future payment; and that we have made trillions more promises than we can keep. These promises were easy (cheap) to make. We accepted these paper promises out of habit since they used to be as good as gold, but that stopped in 1971. Gold represents payment in full. Due to gold’s density is mobile, and due to it’s resistance to decay is durable. I buy all that . . .

Unfortunately “paper currency managers” continue to fool too many shepole. I do not think there are sufficient numbers of aware people with enough money (trillions are needed) to buy and hold enough physical gold to break the paper gold price suppression.

Importantly, I do think there are sufficient numbers of aware people with enough money ($21 billion are needed) to buy up enough physical silver to break the paper silver price suppression which will in turn break the paper gold price suppression. I believe this is the way we can free gold.

On the gold silver ratio:

imeasure said and others repeated:
"I am one of those folks who believe the normalized GSR should be about 60 to 1. That being based on the ratio of silver to gold that roughly exists on planet earth in our planetary crust."

“News Wire” corrected imeasure saying:
"Someone here posted that there is 60 times as much silver as gold. Last year there was 9 times more silver mined than gold. This equates to a 9 to 1 gold to silver ratio.

Other sources (w0tm on youtube) disclose that not only is the GSR of the metals mined closer to 8:1, but more significantly, the ratio is decreasing with time as mine depletion goes forward. As w0tm points out: silver deposits are usually within 200 feet of the surface of the earth due to the geology of the deposits, whereas gold deposits can go much deeper. (I am still trying to learn why this is so and how it impacts the GSR. If anyone has useful knowledge to contribute, feel free…)

Also, from SilverInvestingNews: “Based on copper being 785 times more prevalent (than silver) with a copper price of $3 a pound. If you do the math, silver should be selling for much more than $147 an ounce. The copper price times 785. This may imply that silver is manipulated down a little bit.”

As “News Wire” pointed out: “There is more available gold for investment on the planet than there is available silver for investment. About 5 Billion ounces of Gold compared to 2 Billion ounces of silver.” The silver is consumed at a faster rate than gold.

Look at any (600 year) silver chart priced in inflation adjusted dollars. Note what happened after the money managers broke the Hunt Brothers in 1980. There was a dramatic reduction in the inflation adjusted price of silver after 1980. It is hopefully clear that the price of silver is being suppressed. This will end when investors wise up and start taking physical silver off the market. Buy and hold. Your comments are welcome.

Paul said...

a.d.

as blondie per exellence explains over here, freegold will have to be global. it is an all or nothing thing.

to let goldmines compete with "cheap" new stock at par with "expensive" stock already free flowing, will not be digested very well by the population me thinks.
They rather would embrace it as their nations gold, their heritage, and would claim ultimate ownership. It should be at the benefit off all.

It is how we already deal with gas in the Netherlands wright now ...

Unknown said...

Paul,
1.) "...will be global..."
2.) "...should be at the benefit of all..."

This sound like directly quoted from a speech of a politician declaring the gold confiscation in the future...

greetz,
a.d.

Paul said...

a.d.

could we agree there would be a significant difference in impact by confiscating all the privately held gold in a country or just confiscating the future outflow of a goldmine in that country ?

one would make populair, the other would cause hatred no ?

Paul said...

and all

meet my dog !

LOL

Unknown said...

You promote to disseize the future printing presses and hand them over to Governments? Sounds a little bit what brought us in this todays mess in the first place.

That doesnt sound that much "free" to me. And all this socialist statism just to fix the intellectual gap in Freegold.

That actually reminds me of the logic of Bill Still. So if what is Freegold good for at all anyway? We could just stay with the paper stuff and reform the banking the way Bill Still promotes his crap.

Paul said...

a.d.

that is a yes wright ?

:-)

DP said...

Good morning to you my new friend, Art.

You have demonstrated to us in another thread that you are capable of removing your foot from the capslock pedal when you feel like it, and that you are indeed capable of conversing in a reasoned tone. You didn't seem to have picked up my hint yesterday, so I'll be a lot more clear where I am coming from today.

My feeling is that you haven't done yourself any favours; you have come here recently and skipped the part where you ought to have first established yourself some credibility with people. You have gone straight into rant mode and taken your pants off, terrorising everyone on the train, before people had a chance to understand your perspective. You come across as a loose cannon, rolling around on the deck of the ship demanding attention, but never pinning yourself down long enough that someone can actually get a hold of your problems and respond to them properly. Then you accuse people of not answering your points, implying that the problem is theirs because Freegold is a flawed concept, because they are a 'genius', when really in my opinion you haven't given them much of an opportunity.

It is almost like your goal here is not to be a 'Truthseeker', who will guide people to understand the reason something is wrong here and find something better you are offering elsewhere, but instead just to throw stones through some windows and stink the place up. You come across as a troll. I'm sure this isn't what you hope for.

It is very clear to everyone that you have a real problem with Freegold, and that you have a solution you believe would be better. Contrary to appearances sometimes, we are all Truthseekers here. We want to know if you really have got a convincing case. But you had better make it convincing is all.

So, I think perhaps it might be a good idea for you if you take a little step back and gain some composure, take a little time to try to clearly and concisely describe your proposed system again and how exactly it differs from Freegold, why it is therefore superior. You know, build yourself a little credibility with your potential audience. If you can get across clearly what exactly your problem is in a clear, reasoned and concise way -- you might be able to overcome our existing groupthinkconfirmationbias. The natural response to ATTACK, is DEFENCE. I'm sure you understand.

Similarly, if you continue to run about the train and station platform, frightening the women and children and making the men laugh and poke fun at you, I am going to have to agree with Jeff when he says perhaps you are the first candidate FOFOA might consider "moderating out" your comments. Again, I'm sure you can understand that. It's too important to some people here that other people can find what they're looking for.

Sincerely (no, really!),

DP :-)

Paul said...

a.d.

I am not in the promoting business at all, just merely enjoying the view up here ...

Casper said...

Hi all,


I think the link that Desperado provided contains an excellent example on possible HI and it's effects on financial markets and global economy (macro and micro).

Thanx Desperado

Casper

Greyfox "It's the Debt, Stupid" said...

@ Desperado said: “Art has taken more abuse on this one thread than I have in well over a year.”

I think you meant to say that he has verbally abused more people in this one thread than anyone else. It’s good that Art is for hard money but his abusive/arrogant manner does more to dissuade than promote people in favor of gold as the wealth reserve. I think Art suffers from psychosis and we can only wish he seeks help in this matter.

DP said...

I agree, Casper. (With the obvious caveat, the bomb-in-the-backpack that I am going to try not to trigger today. ;) )

Especially like this gem: In times of crisis, it is always the bid that is withdrawn; there is never a lack of offers. Another way of looking at permanent gold backwardation is as the withdrawal of gold’s (i.e. money’s) bid on irredeemable government debt paper (e.g. dollar bills). But paper’s bid on gold is unlimited.

Indenture said...

Desperado: I might not agree with what you say sometimes, but you say it with respect. Thanks for the link to the 'Crack Up Boom' article.

Art: I believe that your presence will serve a greater purpose than perhaps most realize. Not only are you teaching people how to act politely but you're also holding up the waviest fun house mirror in front of Freegold I have ever seen. The reflection is very amusing.

tEON said...

@FreeGoldAdvocate
Also, from SilverInvestingNews: “Based on copper being 785 times more prevalent (than silver) with a copper price of $3 a pound. If you do the math, silver should be selling for much more than $147 an ounce. The copper price times 785. This may imply that silver is manipulated down a little bit.”

As “News Wire” pointed out: “There is more available gold for investment on the planet than there is available silver for investment. About 5 Billion ounces of Gold compared to 2 Billion ounces of silver.” The silver is consumed at a faster rate than gold.

Look at any (600 year) silver chart priced in inflation adjusted dollars. Note what happened after the money managers broke the Hunt Brothers in 1980. There was a dramatic reduction in the inflation adjusted price of silver after 1980. It is hopefully clear that the price of silver is being suppressed. This will end when investors wise up and start taking physical silver off the market. Buy and hold.
'

All of which I am in agreement with. Very good FreeGoldAdvocate.

To be honest Costata what first smelled like Bias (Silver bigotry) was this comment:

"(I think he wrote a book called “Rich Dad, Thanks To Your Dad” or something like that.)

For someone who has done such extensive research to make this type of comment (albeit a joke) with personal derision positions that don't gel with your POV is very poor - and smacks of a lack of objectivity. You attack the weakest links; Bix, flamboyant Max, and this Kiyosaki cheap-suit salesman, but conveniently lay-off the heavyweights. This is fallacious arguing at best. To niggle jabs at these three guys doesn't not promote your position. You point to their weaknesses - but it does not make the eventual stance incorrect (a man likes to eat fish - does not mean all men like to eat fish). Ex. mocking Kiyosaki's book title does not make Silver any less of a valuable precious metal in the future. But it does question the authority of your contention. I’m sure you wouldn’t appreciate it if the same style of veiled personal attacks were pointed at you. (Of course we can’t really – as you are hiding behind the name ‘Costata’). Seems a shade unfair that you can use this manner to attack others - but we can only go by what you have said in this article. However, I think there are enough questions - simply on basis of facts utilized for your support - to give the lengthy article less stature than we have seen from FoFoA in recent years. Sorry.

Unknown said...

Art

YOu said "You're implying that each newly created dollar or FRN dilutes and significantly reduces the purchasing power of the previously printed dollar."

There is a lag time, but yes of course.

You said "even when TRILLIONS of new dollars are created, each dollar retains about the same purchasing power"

Then why do prices rise when governments print money ? Using that logic, printing should not be a problem for savers.

radix46 said...

I hope this becomes the official thread to point people towards when they want to discuss silver, so the rest of the blog can be for the purpose that the title suggests.

Michael H said...

Victor,

Your observations about misallocation of capital seem to be in line with much of Blondie's writing. Reading about the Weimar hyperinflation highlights interesting trends in this regard: during the HI, the balance shifted almost 180. Doctors, lawyers, and government workers could not make ends meet, while farmers were relatively prosperous.

---

Also, Victor, I have further thoughts on your 'latin american silver exchange' scenario.

First, though -- more about what it means that 'the giants already chose gold'.

Remember: the value of money is decided by the one who receives it in exchange.

So, in an egalitarian society where everyone produces and consumes in about equal amounts, the deciding of a medium of exchange / store of value would be democratic. Whichever medium has the majority votes would win out.

In a society with high inequality, those that control vital resources would have disproportionate influence over what the 'money' ends up being, because they would be on the recieving end of far more transactions. Imagine a dictator who controls the entire food supply for a village. In order to eat, the villagers have to offer the dictator something that he wants. Esentially, he alone decides what the money will be.

In the second example, the villagers could also form their own 'local currency' for exchange amongst themselves, but it would have limited utility and circulation.

Now, back to Victor's example:

If the rest of the world did not follow Latin America's lead and adopt silver as their store of value of choice (but instead stayed with gold), the following might happen:

All imports into Latin America would have to be paid in gold, and payments for exports would be received in silver. Very quickly the region would accumulate silver and run out of gold. At that point, they would be unable to import any further goods at their preferred 10:1 GSR, and instead they would have to trade for gold -- for whatever goods and at whatever the ratio the rest of the world decided, since they would be the 'receivers' of the payments.

The key is that imports and exports would not necessarily net out. If the rest of the world decided that the highest and best use of silver was to send it to Latin America, then all the world's silver production would flow into that region.

Now, if the rest of the world went along and chose silver, then that would be a different ballgame. But I believe that Latin America does not control enough of the worlds resources to have their lead 'stick'.

Michael H said...

About my other proposition of Fed involvement in silver price manipulation in order to keep gold in check: upon further thought, I realize that if this was the case, then we would probably see some indication of it in the FOMC minutes.

Further thoughts about costata's post:

Could the silver price be supressed if the silver flow wasn't cornered? Is there any other example where a corner on some good wasn't used to jack up the price? The only other example is gold: the US kept the gold price artificially low because they wanted the dollar value kept high. So this is the crux of the matter: do the silver price manipulators treat silver like a cornered commodity, or like a barometer of the value of money? The cast of characters involved imply the former.

Indenture said...

Forbes: U.S. Likely to Return to Gold Standard in Five Years

I just thought this was funny. I wonder how much fiat it's going to take to entice gold to flow?

J said...

Thanks Costata! I blame this drop in Silver on you. I live thousands of miles away from my silver and I did not have the opportunity to swap it for gold when it was in the mid 40's like I would have liked.

j/k..but man, what a day in the silver market we're having

J said...

Indenture,
Under a U.S gold standard it would flow. It would flow right out of ft Knox at a high rate. This is why it will never happen

kobajashi said...

Dear FOFOA and members,

I am from europe and have to say that i did not have any kind of background of economics and finance before 2006, but started to get intrested in these things (and gold) around 2006. Lets call it lucky that around 2008 i found Another/ FOA and later FOFOA.
Sinds then i am learning a lot but since my Englisch is not perfect i sometimes miss parts of the story.
So now i am woundering some things while reading these blog articles...

first:
I understand that hyperinflation is inevitable in USA because of political will and financial/debt disaster, but what will be the outlook for the rest of the world while this happens?
Will there also be hyperinflation? Because i think, when oil trades $200, $300 per barrel ($8-$12 at the gasstation), people in europe will have to pay ... € 100,€150 per barrel or €3-€5 at the gasstation (with dollar-euro at 2 dollar for 1 euro)???
So that means oil could trade lets say $500 per barrel/$20/liter in dollar terms?
and a week after it could trade $ 1000 a barrel? who will be able to pay so much?

Not to say when real hyperinflation comes in with oil @ lets say $ 100 000 per barel? what will happen?


second:
I understand that loss of confidence in the dollar is the spark and that velocity is the fuel.
but how does this really go in reality??? Can someone explain to me how this will happen with a detailed example?
I mean ... lets say oil is going through the roof in dollars. (is this a possible indication of the start of hyperinflation? also when food prices in dollars rising faster and faster )
Is this still caused by traders? is it because they could spend fresh new dollars printed, because debt failed?

kobajashi said...

...

third:
I understand that when de papergold market ends, goldprice in dollars could fall and the system breaks. But what happens than? Will hyperinflation begin here, or will stocks, commodities, oil,... crash first to and because of that printing begins and because of that hyperinflation?
When hyperinflation comes in ... will there be defaults first? And will stocks, commodities, oil crash again before running with hyperinflation?


So i have got a few snippets that i would like to see cleared out for me (if possible) to understand it fully.
Thanks in advance ... and sorry for the lots of questions.

snippet 1:

"My friend, debt is the very essence of fiat. As debt defaults, fiat is destroyed. This is where all these deflationists get their direction. Not seeing that hyperinflation is the process of saving debt at all costs, even buying it outright for cash. Deflation is impossible in today's dollar terms because policy will allow the printing of cash, if necessary, to cover every last bit of debt and dumping it on your front lawn! (smile) Worthless dollars, of course, but no deflation in dollar terms!"

Inflation runs crazy when a money system is forced to "print out". We will "print out" our dollar, too. Getting there just takes time and an alternative system to cause it.

Now I do realize that it takes a certain talent to distill deep wisdom from a 10-year-old internet forum post. And I can almost hear some of you out there screaming, "but but but… house prices DID collapse… d… d… DEFLATION!" Wrong. Sorry. Residential real estate will ultimately crash to its non-leveraged cash price as credit disappears, just like the deflationists think. But that ultimate cash price, once reached, may actually be higher than today's leveraged prices and be outrunning the availability of cash needed to clear the market! And all the while real estate will keep crashing in real terms (gold).

There is always a shortage of cash during a full-bore, in-your-face hyperinflation, which is why the printer has to keep adding zeros. His press simply cannot keep up with prices at established denominations. It is also why the first to touch the new cash (the "elite") have a very valuable advantage. Hyperinflation is a grand competition for lifestyle retention in the face of forced austerity, just like a race! Here, look at this from the excerpt:

----------

Does it mean that first there will be defaults? (what will happen with commodities/oil/gold and stocks at that point?)
Does it mean Banks, Governments,... that could not pay there debts, and because off that print money to pay the debts?


Snippet 2:

How will "the Elite" profit from hyperinflation? By being the first to spend the bills with new zeros added and thereby outrunning the rest of us in the race to spend and winning the competition to retain standard of living. Hyperinflation is the end result of the dollar-debt timeline, there is no other way it can end. Only the severity is a variable to be considered.


--------

so what i miss is how do prices go up so fast? Is it because bankers/traders will be able to (cant do anything else than) speculate prices on the markets higher, because they want revenues/winst for retaining standart of living, and because of that we will feel hyperinflation in everything we need?

Michael H said...

kobajashi,

"a week after it could trade $ 1000 a barrel? who will be able to pay so much?"

Not many; that is the point that Hyperinflation looks much like deflation.

"but how does this really go in reality??? "

I suggest reading accounts of other hyperinflations, such as the Weimar case, or France:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-read-sought-after-dying-money-hyper-inflation-here

http://www.delanion.com/Dying%20of%20Money.htm

http://mises.org/books/inflationinfrance.pdf

My opinion is that, because the dollar is the world reserve currency, the whole world will see economic chaos in case of a dollar H.I. However, because the USA is running the biggest trade deficit, it will require a larger economic adjustment and so the chaos there will last longer.

I see about 6 months of high inflation for the rest of the world until a new balance is found with reference point gold, and perhaps a ten-fold inflation. But, for the USA, I see 1-4 years of hyperinflation.

"Is this still caused by traders? is it because they could spend fresh new dollars printed, because debt failed? "

I don't think the price rises will necessarily be caused by 'traders' (or speculators). It is more connected to the money printing by the government, and the insufficiency of supply of real goods.

Anonymous said...

MATT,

YOU SAID: "[Art] said 'even when TRILLIONS of new dollars are created, each dollar retains about the same purchasing power'

"Then why do prices rise when governments print money ? Using that logic, printing should not be a problem for savers."

MY REPLY: Yes, there is no mechanical or necessary reason for fiat currency to depreciate automatically just because more of it is printed. Quite true. As I said and as you all know, fiat currency is WORTHLESS, period. But just because it's WORTHLESS doesn't mean people will not exchange their valuable goods and services against it! Yes, people are STUPID. And that very STUPIDITY is what really "backs" fiat currencies. Even when supply is lower than demand for goods and services than before, it doesn't mean sellers MUST demand higher prices for the wares they are selling. In fact there is no necessary and rational reason for prices to rise regardless of what happens to money and supply and demand.

Let me repeat this one as it's important towards understanding the real nature of the world we live in: "In fact there is no necessary and rational reason for prices to rise regardless of what happens to money and supply and demand."

It is a logical possibility that sellers could sell at a LOSS until their supply of goods for sale is exhausted. So instead of going from slowly or rapidly rising prices to exhaustion of supply; we could presumably go from steady or slowly-rising prices to SUDDEN and UTTER UNAVAILABILTY of goods and services AT ANY PRICE!

What is in the offing this time for us is this latter phenomenon, I'm afraid.

FIAT has put us to sleep. Awakening is by definition an either/or proposition, like the flipping of a light switch. When it's turned on, there is no gradual discovery of the fact that the emperor has no clothes.

kobajashi said...

...

third:
I understand that when de papergold market ends, goldprice in dollars could fall and the system breaks. But what happens than? Will hyperinflation begin here, or will stocks, commodities, oil,... crash first to and because of that printing begins and because of that hyperinflation?
When hyperinflation comes in ... will there be defaults first? And will stocks, commodities, oil crash again before running with hyperinflation?


So i have got a few snippets that i would like to see cleared out for me (if possible) to understand it fully.
Thanks in advance ... and sorry for the lots of questions.

snippet 1:

"My friend, debt is the very essence of fiat. As debt defaults, fiat is destroyed. This is where all these deflationists get their direction. Not seeing that hyperinflation is the process of saving debt at all costs, even buying it outright for cash. Deflation is impossible in today's dollar terms because policy will allow the printing of cash, if necessary, to cover every last bit of debt and dumping it on your front lawn! (smile) Worthless dollars, of course, but no deflation in dollar terms!"

Inflation runs crazy when a money system is forced to "print out". We will "print out" our dollar, too. Getting there just takes time and an alternative system to cause it.

Now I do realize that it takes a certain talent to distill deep wisdom from a 10-year-old internet forum post. And I can almost hear some of you out there screaming, "but but but… house prices DID collapse… d… d… DEFLATION!" Wrong. Sorry. Residential real estate will ultimately crash to its non-leveraged cash price as credit disappears, just like the deflationists think. But that ultimate cash price, once reached, may actually be higher than today's leveraged prices and be outrunning the availability of cash needed to clear the market! And all the while real estate will keep crashing in real terms (gold).

There is always a shortage of cash during a full-bore, in-your-face hyperinflation, which is why the printer has to keep adding zeros. His press simply cannot keep up with prices at established denominations. It is also why the first to touch the new cash (the "elite") have a very valuable advantage. Hyperinflation is a grand competition for lifestyle retention in the face of forced austerity, just like a race! Here, look at this from the excerpt:

----------

Does it mean that first there will be defaults? (what will happen with commodities/oil/gold and stocks at that point?)
Does it mean Banks, Governments,... that could not pay there debts, and because off that print money to pay the debts?


Snippet 2:

How will "the Elite" profit from hyperinflation? By being the first to spend the bills with new zeros added and thereby outrunning the rest of us in the race to spend and winning the competition to retain standard of living. Hyperinflation is the end result of the dollar-debt timeline, there is no other way it can end. Only the severity is a variable to be considered.


--------

so what i miss is how do prices go up so fast? Is it because bankers/traders will be able to (cant do anything else than) speculate prices on the markets higher, because they want revenues/winst for retaining standart of living, and because of that we will feel hyperinflation in everything we need?

kobajashi said...

@ michael H

Thanks for the clearings.
I will try to read and understand more on hyperinflation from your links

greets

Anonymous said...

DP and others,

I'll keep appending the three paragraphs below because you keep on repeating that I don't understand Freegold and I don't have an argument against it, nor an alternative to it even though you know that this is not true.

THE TWO MAIN ANTI-FREEGOLD ARGUMENTS:

1. If you "save" in gold and have to sell your gold every time you want to buy something, you will pay the bankers and the coin dealers fees and commissions each time PLUS they will buy your gold back for LESS and sell it to you for MORE when you want to convert your currency back into gold in order to "save" it. This is pure economic suicide! In the process, you will basically LOSE everything you have if you thus "save" your wealth in gold.

WHY Freegold when Freegold will ANNIHILATE your wealth, your money and your savings and deflate your wages to oblivion through inflation over time?

2. Fiat or paper currency causes economic apartheid and hyperinflation (and eventually social conflict, warfare and bloodshed). This is why:

WHO issues and controls fiat currency? NOT you and I. WHO pays basically NOTHING for fiat currency and creates it out of thin air to bid for all the goods and services available on the planet? NOT you and I. WHO has to work their asses off in order to obtain some of that worthless "medium of exchange" so that they can pay for food and shelter?

YOU and I.

FREEGOLDERS are saying that fiat currency is the BEST form of money = FREEGOLDERS are fomenting economic injustice and political turmoil.

ALTERNATIVE TO FREEGOLD (Freegold is the monetary system that we have NOW!)

1)Gold and silver circulating as two independent forms of money WITHOUT fixed but MARKET-DETERMINED fluctuating ratios to each other, plus;

2)Currency redeemable in gold and silver at non-fixed fluctuating rates circulating alongside and competing with precious metal money.

3)A nonprofit national bank that issues gold-backed currency only but NOT debt- or credit-generated money.

4)A private for-profit banking sector that can issue loans for productive enterprise or sensible purchases or speculation purposes. NO reserve requirements and FRACTIONAL banking permitted. HOWEVER, NO FDIC, i.e., NO socialization of losses. You gamble, you may lose. The banker gambles, he can lose. The banker cheats, he can lose his head.

WHY Freegold when the fundamental rationale for its existence is DESTROYED before your very own eyes?

radix46 said...

ART,

What sort of MORON are you?

Freegold is not a wish list, like yours.

It is a prediction of what WILL HAPPEN.

Do you understand the difference between the two?

Even if you say yes, I seriously doubt that you do, as you have shown yourself to be a MORON.

Do you understand the futility of castigating the people on this blog for what their PREDICTIONS about the future are?

No, I don't think you do, even though that is an incredibly simple distinction to grasp. My 11 year old sister could understand that difference, but I seriously doubt that you can.

In fact, hang on, let me just check...... yep, she got it within seconds.

That is why I say that you are a MORON.

Unfortunately, I am probably a MORON too, as I have obviously not understood the futility of making this post.

Let me just type that once more, because I'm really enjoying doing so, MORON.

Notice here, also, that this is not an ad hominem to refute your arguments, this is just a straight out and out insult, I care not about your arguments.

Michael H said...

radix46, and everyone else as well:

Please, please, please stop feeding the troll.

As Bron's latest post shows,

http://goldchat.blogspot.com/2011/05/someone-is-wrong-on-internet.html

There are more important things in life than correcting someone on the internet who you believe is wrong.

When I checked this blog today I was glad that there were 150 new posts and I looked forward to more commentary about costata's post. Instead, I saw flame wars. Clearly, 'someone' needs to learn manners. But, it takes two to tango, so bite your tounges!

radix46 said...

Fair enough MH, good point.

I'll leave the troll well alone.

tEON said...

It would flow right out of ft Knox at a high rate

There is no more Gold in Fort Knox. Clinton and Rueben were responsible for that. They refuse an audit (I wonder why) - last audit was about 40 years ago.

Anonymous said...

To the feisty one above,

First of all, you Freegolders are saying that Freegold is INEVITABLE and all that we can hope is to do what you tell us to do. No Sir, you're not just speculating but trying to impose your paradigm on us all.

I am not castigating people for making predictions. I am making a cogent criticism of the Freegold myth.

First and foremost, because Freegolders are WRONG when they say that Freegold is the INEVITABLE FUTURE since Freegold is nothing but what we have NOW. Freegold IS the current monetary system therefore in CANNOT happen in the future for it is here and now.

The only insidious reason you Freegolders are trying to sell it as the future itself is to coax people to accept the CURRENT monetary arrangements that suit you well.

You're trying to brainwash people into accepting your will as law.

No Sir, I won't let you do that.

radix46 said...

MORON.

Sorry MH, that was the last time, I promise.

DP said...

@Michael H/radix46

I see your point entirely MH, but at the same time I have this sneaking suspicion that if you don't respond to Art, he will just get increasingly frustrated and angry with this place, and instead of 150 comments of witty banter and perhaps a little dialogue on the side waiting to greet you in the morning, you might just get 16,384 comments all from Art and all in CAPS and brimstone. And it might be the end of this forum, which would be a massive shame IMO. Perhaps I'm wrong. The most important thing to me around here is that innocent bystanders don't come here and see a confusing mess of ZeroHedge-esque ire and spit, or just walk away with misinformation that hasn't been highlighted as so, ideally corrected and the dispute ultimately resolved somehow or another.

@Art

I'm pleased to see you back here, with what I perceive to be a more reasoned, controlled and less aggressive tone. Perhaps it's just me exhibiting wishful thinking, I don't know. I am overlooking your use of CAPS this time, thinking of them in the same way that other people might use bold, or italics, links, or just careful word selection, to make their emphasis instead. Perhaps it's a technical training issue? That wouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, I am hopeful that we might perhaps see some similarly improved responses back to you (who knows, perhaps I might get around to responding to your points too at some point? :-) ). While you are passionate about stopping us from brainwashing people, I'm sure that you can see perhaps it cuts both ways; we are passionate about stopping you from doing the same thing in our opinion. People might feel less defensive while you are less aggressive. If you are right, you will convince us with reason and logic. Clearly, we would hope to convince you instead. Only time will tell. I hope a toned-down approach works out much better for you, and of course for everyone else...

Sincerely,

DP :-)

DP said...

I know! It's funny isn't it? Some of you are sitting right now thinking.... 'WTF?!?'. :-)

Sometimes you gotta work hard for it.

Anonymous said...

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
—Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

DP said...

OK, so when do we get to the point that you stop violently opposing Freegold and we can all move on?

I'm just kidding with you. :-)

Night night...

Anonymous said...

DP,

This is the best of all possible worlds and you're asking for Another one?

:o)

tEON said...

Does Schopenhauer say anything about spewing your message like an insulting jerk?

DP said...

:-D Just suck it up, Art. Surely you can admit to yourself that, perhaps, you have it coming. You might still be able to get that credibility you want yet though. Be the man. ;-)

Now it really is night night though...

Anonymous said...

Based on the above, I don't think it behooves Freegolders to say who is a jerk and who isn't.

radix46 said...

Gary,

Unfortunately, no he doesn't. But, from Wikipedia, "For Schopenhauer, human desire was futile, illogical, directionless,". Ie, you can wish all you want, it is pointless.

I think people should be consistent with the philosophies they espouse.

Anyone quoting Schopenhauer should stick to objective analyisis of what will be, rather than a subjective list of futile wants. Well, that's if they want to be logically and morally consistent, anyway.

Anonymous said...

"...objective analyisis [sic] of what will be..."

Freegold is HERE NOW already. As explained and NOT refuted, above.

JR said...

Hi Art,

Although you maintain "freegold is here now," in surprising development, you are wrong (as many have repeatedly pointed out):

"There are four key aspects to Freegold. There are also many more, but these four are key. That's not to say they are all necessary. They are not. But it is to say that in order to understand Freegold you must at least understand the significance of these conditions:...

**** 2. The end of parity between paper gold price discovery and physical gold price discovery****...."

From Freegold in the Proper Perspective . The paper/physical parity still exists.

Cheers, J.R.

James said...

Tough to buy the argument that silver will not follow gold whatever gold does. Easy to see that as long as bankers can create money from nothing they can control ALL markets. History tells us that silver has had every bit the monetary function that gold has had if not more. Why would that change now? Bottom line is, do you trust fiat currencies to hold wealth or not. If not, what is the alternative? The answer is there are no alternatives except PM's. Physical PM's, not paper representations. Further, if an individual wishes to contribute to the cause of the demise of fiat currencies worldwide he or she buys physical PM's. Its the only possible way to contribute to the end of the bankers control of the world. Silver and gold bugs should be working together on the common cause, not wasting time bickering over the perceived benefits of gold over silver or vice versa.

Anonymous said...

Hi JR,

THIS STATEMENT OF YOURS, "...The end of parity between paper gold price discovery and physical gold price discovery..." IS A LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

The discovery of the price of something against itself is not possible. The price of something can only be measured in terms of something ELSE. In other words, the price of gold is something OTHER than gold itself. That can be units of weight OR numbers on paper (paper gold or otherwise). Gold is not God; gold is not some mystical nonsensical metaphysical Unity that will save those that buy it. It doesn't exist in vacuum inside a Freegolder's head.

Clear your head of Freegold lies.

JR said...

Hi Art,

The discovery of the price of something against itself is not possible.

Bravo, I am pleased to see you are grasping some basic economics.

I wonder what price is discovered...oh yeah the price of gold in the currency where the "price discovery" is undertaken... its almost like your comment reveals you *sorta understand* that is what is meant by "paper gold price discovery" and "physical gold price discovery."

The issues here is the end of any parity between the price discovery of physical gold and price discovery of paper gold. AKA a physical only marketplace, which we don't have know.

Cheers, J.R.

Goldilocks said...

@Art,

I am interested in your ideas but would like you to flesh them out a little.

1)Gold and silver circulating as two independent forms of money WITHOUT fixed but MARKET-DETERMINED fluctuating ratios to each other, plus;

Dont we have this now with all the bullion coins that float against the currencies? Or is your concern with the face values and legal tender status?

If no face value plus legal tender its like like dirham, dinar or krugerrands? We have that now in South Africa where Krugerrands are legal tender and foreign exchange simultaneously with no face value and are free to circulate.

What will the numeraire be? Is everything numerated in gold as an independent currency...or in silver or dollars or is everything quoted in terms of everything else?

2)Currency redeemable in gold and silver at non-fixed fluctuating rates circulating alongside and competing with precious metal money.

We have this now as well. I can redeem my rands for gold anytime, either for krugerrands or bullion and this paper currency competes with bullion coins/bullion at floating rates.

3)A nonprofit national bank that issues gold-backed currency only but NOT debt- or credit-generated money.

This we don’t have. This is a government run bank? Is the currency issued 1:1? If there is no debt or credit generated then there are no loans of gold or silver backed money? If so how does this money enter the economy? Can I as a private citizen loan my friend some money and charge them interest or will usury be outlawed? If yes how will this interest be paid: in the gold/silver backed currency?

4)A private for-profit banking sector that can issue loans for productive enterprise or sensible purchases or speculation purposes. NO reserve requirements and FRACTIONAL banking permitted. HOWEVER, NO FDIC, i.e., NO socialization of losses. You gamble, you may lose. The banker gambles, he can lose. The banker cheats, he can lose his head.

Is this currency the same as the one in point 3 or a different currency altogether? Am I able to buy gold or silver with this currency or is this illegal? Can I buy stocks or anything else with this money and then redeem the stocks/anything for gold/silver backed currency?

Anonymous said...

JR,

In "the physical only marketplace" the price of gold is not established by average people trading in the average marketplace. You don't negotiate the price of tomatoes in terms of gold OR dollars at your local grocery store, do you?

The issue is not what is supposed to be the physical spot price of gold versus the paper price of gold as BOTH are not FREE MARKET prices. All three paper and spot and "physical" prices are established and FORCED upon us by the powers that be - the ruling classes, the bankers and the governments.

The physical versus paper argument is a straw man argument. The real issue is, who and how determines the price of gold (in terms of the other goods and services it trades against).

THAT, my friend, the true FREE MARKET price discovery is the prize you should be aiming for. Not "Freegold" which stipulates fiat currency therefore fraudulent paper markets forever.

Anonymous said...

jthenewer,

> victorthecleaner, what proportion (by ounces) do you feel is sensible for gold vs silver?

It is always a wise decision not to give specific investment advice. The answer would depend on how much volatility you can stomach, how cool you are when the financial system implodes, how much oppression we will see and very much on what sort of other investments you would be willing to put your (earned fiat) money into. Even if my advice were good, the risk that at least one person misunderstands it or takes the good advice and then uses it in a foolish way and is then wiped out financially is close to 100%.

So, I am not going to give you any figures. But here are some more thoughts on silver:

1) If gold stops trading as Another and FOA have predicted, and people walk into their local coin store to buy some gold, but all the gold has been sold out, what do you think will happen to the silver that is for sale in that store?

2) I know that FOA once wrote that silver will go to zero. I think if he was still reading here, he would wish to have that statement back. I think about it this way. Another said "something similar might work with silver, but I am not an expert on silver" (from memory). Another is the master. FOA said "gold will go to $30000/ounce and silver will go to zero". He is the disciple. This is one (out of a few) things he was too enthusiastic about to get them right.

Silver is volatile because its stock to flow ratio is small and because its flow fluctuates so much because of the industrial demand - this is many like gold better. But the ratio is small because the stock is small, not because the flow is big. At the margin, the above ground investment gold today stores about $5000-7000bn, but the above ground investment silver only something around $100-140bn. Which one do you think will get hotter when some $40000bn in financial assets start running for the exists (even if neither of the markets stops trading)?

Silver can easily get into a situation in which the flow reaches the bound imposed by the existing stock. Yes, people may have their silverware melted down. But for what? To take home dollars? In that situation? To change it for silver coins? Perhaps. To change it for gold? While gold is not trading? I think a GSR of 20:1 to 15:1 is a plausible guess and even parity is in the cards, both during the run-up and after the change. 5000:1? Not for one single second.

3) On the price target of $55000/ounce for gold in today's dollars. Where do you people get that figure from? I know that FOA mentioned $30000/ounce around 1998/9. Perhaps somebody has merely adjusted it for dollar purchasing power. It is beyond me how you could justify anything like that from historical or economic facts. A figure for which you can put up some historic precedent and some actual numbers, however, is around $15000/ounce in today's dollars. Given the enormous uncertainties, this would mean a target range of $7500 to $22500.

Such a somewhat sobering adjustment to the 'freegold fantasy' makes a number of other real assets appear a lot more competitive. Not just silver, but also mining and exploration stocks.

...

Anonymous said...

...

4) I agree that if you own silver, there may be a point at which you cannot change it into physical gold. Similarly if you own shares in gold exploration companies and you decide it is time to take profits because you are concerned about excessive taxation or even outright nationalisation. But on the other hand, this time will offer breathtaking volatility which means opportunities. There will be a point at which industrial stocks are a once in a lifetime bargain. There will be a point after the change at which corporate credit will be as scarce as in the 1930s (or compare this to buying US T-bonds in 1982). There are plenty of other ideas whose potential opportunity is in the same order of magnitude as just keeping physical gold (which I just reduced to a more realistic figure above). When everyone is running for the exits, even toilet paper will fly as long as somebody prints "golden edition" on it. And, of course, there will be plenty of ways in which you can hang yourself.

Victor

Anonymous said...

Casper

> Regarding that paper (B-S) you mention. [...] how real interest rates may accurately predict which way the price of gold (in dollars) moves but what they don't seem to be is, how far.

That's right. It is just a correlation: real interest rates up means real price of gold down. The data are not good enough to say by how much. It may even be impossible to determine that.

Victor

Anonymous said...

AD,

Re #1:

We don't have this now, Sir, for, as you may recall, gold is not (nor is silver) money TODAY. And because the price of gold and silver is determined by the same few people who issue and control fiat currencies which they're at liberty to create (at virtually no cost to them) to either LOWER the price of gold (and silver) or raise it, after they've taken position to benefit from price fluctuations that THEY will have caused in the first place. Pure fiat and TRUE FREE MARKET PRICE DISCOVERY are two mutually exclusive propositions.

A TWO-WAY Krugerrand type arrangement in a truly free market not polluted by pure fiat, yes! That's very good but it's not what you have in South Africa. Your currency is not redeemable in gold, is it, though Krugerrands are redeemable in currency? Let's ORDER that the paper currency is redeemable in so much officially-quoted gold and silver at any given moment, and let's do that globally to preclude indirect gold price setting through the foreign exchange markets, and we're in business.

Yes, value the gold and silver coins per units of weight. No, do not value gold in terms of silver nor vice versa. You have two distinct numeraires and you are free to demand payment in either, in terms of units of weight in either numeraire.

Yes, quote everything separately in terms of gold and silver numeraires.

Re #2

No, you are able to sell your currency for gold in South Africa but there is no law that prescribes the convertibility of the currency to gold at all times. Your institutions could suspend the sale of gold for currency at any time, can they not? This must be eliminated and the banking institutions must be FORCED to quote a gold price even if it's something as ridiculous as one trillion per toz of gold. This way no one can pretend that everything is fair and square. The banks must be literally FORCED to put their money where their mouth is. (And this must be done GLOBALLY otherwise the price of gold will be rigged via the foreign exchange markets from outside South Africa.)

Re #3

Yes, this is a government-run bank. The rate at which the new currency is to be issued will be determined by referendum THEN checked (devalued/revalued) by the international gold and foreign exchange markets after its actual issuance to the public.

No, no loans of precious-metal backed money. BUT creation, inflation or outright issuance of gold-backed money, yes. The market decides if they want to transact in it and what price relative to gold or other currencies. I personally would strictly discount said currency the more it is created into existence UNTIL my fellow human beings become BETTER human beings.

This money enters the economy by way of its exchange with the money that yo have now at the referendum-mandated price.

Yes, you can lend money to whomever you want at whatever rate you want AS LONG AS both parties understand and freely accept the transaction.

However I personally think that CHARGING INTEREST is REPUGNANT. I'm against it.

Yes, interest to be paid in gold-backed currency as all other forms of currencies are to be outlawed.

Re #4

Yes, private bank issued loans must be repaid in gold-backed currency issued by the national bank. Of course you can buy gold with it. When you sell the bonds or stocks that you bought with it, you will get only gold-backed currency.

To cut to the chase, the aim of this system is not to absolutely eliminate the possibility of fraud and monetary mismanagement at the private as opposed to the public level. However it does serve to eliminate fraud at the national level and forces TRANSPARENCY and assumption of responsibility at the personal level.

Gotta run now, my APOLOGIES for any mistakes in writing OR in REASONING and LOGIC.

Talk to you all later...

Anonymous said...

mortymer,

> @Art, for you...
> Intro for Gold standard:
> [...]
> Prices should increase in surplus countries, making them less competitive, while the opposite should take place in deficit countries.
> In practice, however, adjustment was not always symmetrical. Countries with balance of payments surpluses could not be forced to issue more money:
> they could simply hoard gold without monetising it, thus avoiding the price increases that would erode their competitiveness.
> [...]
> [mrt: So, what do you think, do see it now?]

I think this is a combination of two non sequiturs. Buy one, get one free. The first one is that you are having a problem only if free unlimited global trade is never questioned. The second is that even in a freegold system, a trade deficit country that does not attract sufficient direct investment (in real assets), can experience both an increase in import prices and an outflow of gold. Which one it will be is a priori not known. With freegold, it would just be the privately owned gold that gets lost rather than the official gold that backs the local currency in the classic gold standard. So the trade deficit country still needs to do something or they will eventually hit the same wall in the same way as they would under a gold standard. They will probably impose trade controls or tariffs in order to balance their trade account long before their gold runs out. Exactly the same as they would do under a classic gold standard.

In fact, I think that freegold and a classical gold standard are less different than you usually admit. With a classical gold standard, the government can devalue the currency with respect to gold (think 1933). With freegold, the market does that. With a classical gold standard, creating too much credit will drain the gold reserve unless you devalue and create rising prices. With freegold, creating too much credit would send the paper currency lower, causing precisely that increase in import prices. Both systems impose a very similar discipline on the commercial banking system and on fiscal politics. The difference is that freegold does that more indirectly and more automatically.

Politicians intuitively understand the gold standard, and this is why they hate it. Initially, they will probably not understand freegold, and when they do it is hopefully too late to reverse.

Victor

Anonymous said...

ADDENDUM to above: There will be silver-backed currency as well, if I forgot to mention it.

Sorry, I'm in a hurry.

Anonymous said...

DP,

> @VtC, I would first like to share an observation that I think you're making a big mistake in starting up a coalition with Desperado.
> [...]
> If you tie yourself to someone being guided towards the wrong door for you, it's just going to make life more difficult.

You are worried about Desperado not finding the door handle to get in?

> I think Desperado's door has a sign on it "how does gold get revalued while silver doesn't?".
> I think your door has a sign on it "once in a lifetime global arbitrage opportunity, limited seats -- book now".

I think Desperado has already entered through my door. He just speaks a language different from you, and so you did not understand him when he explained to you that the sign "...while silver doesn't?" was attached to the wall. There was no door behind it.

By the way, I took that sign off the wall and took it inside with me. I will keep it until the day X and then wave it in front of your eyes with a big smile when I see your jaw drop as you realize that the gold silver ratio has finally adjusted to 20:1 after the change.

> If you can take 1oz of silver to any Latin American CB and exchange it for 10oz of gold,
> then take that to the ECB and sell that 10oz of gold for sufficient Euros to turn around and buy 50,000oz* of silver.
> Rinse and repeat. Then that's a sweet deal, eh? Wowsers! Are you glad you had that 1oz of silver to start yourself off!
> What are you going to do with this 50,000oz of silver that you bought in the market?
> I guess you like the idea of retiring to Rio or something like that -- and who wouldn't?
> [...]
> In my spreadsheet, Jeff is always 1 step ahead of you in terms of global purchasing power.

Well, he would be ahead only if someone in Europe were so stupid as to give him 5000oz of silver for his 1oz of gold. Nobody would. Today, he would get about 40oz. Since people know that the world needs resources from South America, the GSR is not going to increase beyond 100 any time soon. By the way, if Jeff starts with 1oz of gold, I am allowed to start not with 1oz of silver, but with 70oz (the GSR when I bought mine). Poor Jeff. He better charters some supersonic aircraft to outrun me on our regular commute between Zurich and Rio.

The one objection to my scenario that does hold water is the following:

Michael H said...

> But I believe that Latin America does not control enough of the worlds resources to have their lead 'stick'.

Accepted. The other question is whether they control a high enough proportion of silver so that the Europeans alone cannot set the GSR at will, given which proportion of resources from SA they need to import.

However you spin it, one conclusion is that trade imbalances will need to shrink very radically.

Victor

Indenture said...

Chart Of The Day: Currency Devaluation, Old School Style

Wendy said...

just checking

FOFOA said...

p.1 of 5

Hello Victor,

I didn't really want to jump into the fray here, but I am compelled to correct a couple of your errors.

Here's the part of your comment I'm focusing on:

2) I know that FOA once wrote that silver will go to zero. I think if he was still reading here, he would wish to have that statement back. I think about it this way. Another said "something similar might work with silver, but I am not an expert on silver" (from memory). Another is the master. FOA said "gold will go to $30000/ounce and silver will go to zero". He is the disciple. This is one (out of a few) things he was too enthusiastic about to get them right.

First of all, he wrote that silver would go to 50 cents, not zero, and he also qualified that as in 2001 purchasing power. Here are the exact words:

"This not only has "everything to do with a gold bull market", it has everything to do with a changing world financial architecture. And I have to admit: if you hated our last one, you will no doubt hate this new one, too. However, everyone that is positioned in physical gold will carry this storm in fantastic shape. This is because the ECB has no intentions of backing their currency with gold and every intention of using gold as a "free trading" financial reserve. None of the other metals will play a part in this.

Clearly, the coming drastic constriction in dollar financial trade will trigger a super "print press" response from the Fed. They will not be pushing on a string; rather picking up the ball of twine and throwing it! All the while using the old 1980s "monetary control act" that opens their use of monetizing almost anything and everything. They won't be adding reserves to the banking system in the future; rather buying any and all debts from anyone that needs fresh cash. Believe it!

For the first time,,,,,,,, our industrial production, along with the demand for industrial metals like silver, will fall away even as hyper inflation in prices takes hold.

For the first time,,,,,,,, demonstrating that no other asset is equal to gold, even though promoted to be!

When the coming paper illusion price of gold is destroyed, sending its trading price way up and way down, several times, before shutdown,,,,,, the thinner paper markets of lesser metals will be absolutely devastated. Yes we will see $50.00 silver in our time,,,,,, $50.00 for a hundred ounce bar,,,,, that is! No less a relative price decline for the other metals is in store. Even if these actual dollar numbers prove incorrect,,,,,, relative inflation adjusted prices will show the exact same ratios to gold. The gain will truly be in gold!"


And this, some time later:

"Silver may hit my .50 before taking off and so will many other real assets. My point is that we are on an "end time run" in fiat dollar production that will soon produce a spike in real price inflation that crushes hedge vehicles. One item alone, physical gold, because it is the main wealth asset behind the next currency system, will outrun everything by a wide margin."

Cont...

FOFOA said...

p.2

As far as FOA's credibility versus ANOTHER's credibility goes, FOA addressed this:

"Of Credibility
A long time ago a gentleman told me; "go ahead, use your mind, speak for me as I give to you. Tell them our thoughts, it be good for all to know these things". With that comment, it all started. Even further back, long before we had these internet forums the logic and efforts behind this push was flowing..

Presently, I write almost entirely for myself. Another shares with me when and if as he sees fit. Often, to my consternation, and some embarrassment, his Thoughts do not arrive for copy when I say they will. Truly, this is as it should be.

I (we) expect none of you to consider anything said here as credible. Everything is given as I understand it. If you came with a notion that I am someone who sees the future; grab the children and run far away. For these Thoughts, and my ongoing commentary, are meant to impact exactly as the "gentleman" said they would. People hear them, and whether believed or not, the words leave a mark. A mental mark on the trail, if you will. And later, after the world turns, our little "stacks of rocks" will be easier to understand next time you are passing this way. In fact, your ability to find your own way will forever be enhanced for having seen this path in a different light."


Victor, I find your arguments in favor of silver being a "monetary metal of great value" in our future interesting. But I, for one, do not find them the least bit convincing. My view of your arguments is that they are coming from someone who does not really understand why FOA wrote the above. And so he clings to a couple statements made by ANOTHER as his justification for FOA being wrong in this particular aspect of "the A/FOA paradigm."

I wholly disagree. I view ANOTHER's "concessions" to the silver bugs of the time as just that, conciliatory statements meant to calm them down. Silver bugs can be feisty! But here is the key to the whole A/FOA paradigmatic view, quoting ANOTHER:

"You have heard the phrase, "money is moving into real estate, land, oil, stocks or bonds". It is a bad meaning, as it does not what it says. All modern digital currencies do not go into an investment, they move THRU it. The US unit is only an exchange medium to acquire assets valued in dollars…

There is an alternative. Gold! It is the only medium that currencies do not "move thru". It is the only Money that cannot be valued by currencies. It is gold that denominates currency. It is to say "gold moves thru paper currencies". Gold can be used to revalue any asset, and not be destroyed in the process!"


Victor, do you find it funny that ANOTHER used the word "only" there? Do you think he was conveniently using "gold" as the abbreviation for "gold and silver," that he really meant this?... "There are two alternatives. Gold and Silver! They are the only media that currencies do not "move thru". They are the only Monies that cannot be valued by currencies. It is gold and silver that denominates currency. It is to say "gold and silver move thru paper currencies". (LOL)

Here's how I put it in my backwardation post. A.E. Fekete found this part particularly interesting:

"This is the key to EVERYTHING!!! It is not "gold liquidity" that the bullion banks create... it is DOLLAR LIQUIDITY. Dollars bidding on MSFT stock set the value of that stock. If dollars are frantically bidding on MSFT (high velocity), the stock skyrockets. If dollars stop bidding for MSFT all at once (low velocity), the price falls to zero. This is true for everything in the world except gold...

Cont...

FOFOA said...

p.4

That was from "Human Action". And "secondary media of exchange" in this case is AE-speak for monetary wealth reserve, or monetary store of value. Here's an interesting quote from Menger's "Principles of Economics":

"But it appears to me to be just as certain that the functions of being a “measure of value” and a “store of value” must not be attributed to money as such, since these functions are of a merely accidental nature and are not an essential part of the concept of money...."

Hmm… Here's some more from Mises' "Human Action". Notice he's writing about gold, not mentioning silver. Do you think he was just abbreviating "gold and silver" as "gold" to save on the cost of ink?

"Gold is the money of international trade and of the supernational economic community of mankind. It cannot be affected by measures of governments whose sovereignty is limited to definite countries. As long as a country is not economically self-sufficient in the strict sense of the term, as long as there are still some loopholes left in the walls by which national governments try to isolate their countries from the rest of the world, gold is still used as money. It does not matter that governments confiscate the gold coins and bullion they can seize and punish those holding gold as felons. The language of bilateral clearing agreements by means of which governments are intent upon eliminating gold from international trade, avoids any reference to gold. But the turnovers performed on the ground of those agreements are calculated on gold prices. He who buys or sells on a foreign market calculates the advantages and disadvantages of such transactions in gold. In spite of the fact that a country has severed its local currency from any link with gold, its domestic structure of prices remains closely connected with gold and the gold prices of the world market."

The point is, Victor, that Freegold, gold's emergent role today is different, on a deep conceptual level that is perfectly consistent with the thoughts of "past masters". You can "want" silver to do the things you say until the cows come home. But the evidence says otherwise, to me at least, and to a few others who can see beyond their own hopes and desires.

Here is one way in which I think gold and silver are very different. If the paper markets of both metals were to collapse simultaneously in a big financial collapse, I think silver would crash as gold skyrockets. I cannot prove this, but it is what the evidence tells me. It is my analysis. I think that in a physical-only market the purchasing power of gold would be much higher than today and the purchasing power of silver would be much lower.

I think the paper markets are actually levitating silver right now. They are bringing in investment demand, speculation (through ease) and leverage that simply wouldn't be in silver in a physical-only market. FOA wrote about this as well. And it must be viewed within the dynamic context of these markets failing. Much of the "big money" that is in silver, thanks to the ease of the paper markets, would not be interested in taking delivery of "the heavy metal". And in the dynamic of a market crash, it would rush from silver into gold for multiple reasons, which FOA outlined in the Gold Trail.

This is not totally unlike the effect the "paper market" (meaning the paper US dollar) had on "monetized" gold and silver in the early years of the gold standard. Silver, being a stamped coin, was overvalued ("levitated") in that monetary form. Meanwhile gold, being the monetary base, was forcefully undervalued. I have written about this before, and its effect was briefly visible in 1933 when FDR was forced to raise the price of gold but conversely had to buy silver to levitate its price.

Cont...

FOFOA said...

p.5

Here's another way I see them as different. I look at GLD and SLV as "CB-sized stockpiles" of physical metal that, while "owned" by the public, are under the control of the banks. In other words, by their very pricing structure, the banks can take out or put in metal at any time with very little cost and almost no effect on the price of the underlying. And they have no carrying cost because that is picked up by the shareholders. It's a win-win for the banks; their own private "CB" that they control. But there is a key difference between the two ETFs, that being the difference between silver and gold.

I see that the banks have control of their own "CB" for physical silver and gold. And in the case of gold they are likely using it, as slowly as possible, to satisfy the demand of small Giants that show up at the "gold window" à la Who is Draining GLD?. Yet, in the case of SLV, I see a means to corner the flow and churn the profits banks are famous for churning à la Has the silver market been cornered.... AGAIN?

Desperado has written in the past, "silver represents freedom and liberty far more than gold." But the way I see it, with gold you join in the freedom and liberty enjoyed by the Giants. In silver, the value of your wealth is under their control, like the voodoo doll in this Capital One commercial.

I can absolutely see silver circulating as a currency during a hyperinflation event, just like you and Desperado. Absolutely! But even so, that does not mean a higher purchasing power for silver than it has today. In my analysis it means a much lower purchasing power than silver has today. Yet still I keep some pre-65 halves just like I keep some physical cash at home. I don't expect to get more for it than I paid, in real terms, but it's good insurance to keep around. How could the PP of silver be lower if it is used as a currency? Circulation velocity! All those poor silver bugs (poor man's gold) dishoarding in favor of scarce food while the gold lies still.

I see no contradiction between FOA's words at the top of this comment and what I still expect to unfold. I think we are just hitting the beginning of what he was describing. And I, for one, do not think FOA would take those statements back. I also don't think he was being overly enthusiastic when he wrote them. Perhaps he was being a little more candid with the silver bugs than ANOTHER was willing to be, but that's something I can relate to.

You can discount this whole paradigm if it doesn't agree with your desires and/or pre-conceptions. I don't care. I am only here, like FOA, to be sure it is presented as accurately as possible, to leave a "stack of rocks" that can be revisited later, and to offer a "different light" that might "enhance" the view of this trail for some, as it did for me. All I'm doing here is sharing the view that has brought me the most peace of mind. The little angst I still have is in deciding what I'm going to do with my remaining silver. By the way, for the record, and for the umpteenth time, I haven't bought a single ounce of silver since I discovered the writings of A/FOA. But that's just me and my understanding. You need to find your own understanding and peace of mind, and that's why I write. Now, back to my cave.

Sincerely,
FOFOA

Wendy said...

FOFOA,

I'm a bit confused ... there was approx 2 hours between your post and the last one, and another couple of hours between the one before.

This post has over 500 comments so I find the time lag suspicious ... is blogger having siezures and we are ( i am ) missing posts???

Pete said...

@ Desperado

Thanks for that backwardation link, it's quite good. Opened my eyes to some things that's for sure.

I think he did miss one thing though, relating to his summary point of "No usable unit of account for one’s books, so losses will (temporarily) look like gains.". This would mean that the taxman would expect a larger cut than from normal business, no? Ouch!

Is complex taxation one difference between modern HI events and past ones? I'm guessing that taxation wasn't so complex in the Weimar days. Don't know about other examples.

(not that this relates to Freegold)

FOFOA said...

Oh my! It seems that Blogger did some maintenance that somehow reset a few things to their original default settings. Anyway, this is a repost...

One more and then back to my cave. ;)

I wanted to thank Art for calling me Evil. Quote:

"Another/FOA/FOFOA are EVIL."

Art, you are on thin "Shelby-like" ice here now. Watch yourself.

Oh, and he also suggested that I might work for the evil CIA:

"It was suggested at the time by some that the USAGold forum was a mindf-ck operation sponsored by the CIA, among others. In any case, all these blogs and forums are either monitored or instigated by governments and the bankers who use the internet as a way to put their feelers out there."

…and perhaps that I'm also an evil banker:

"So it's not mere speculation on my part that they are affiliated with bankers."

…and that I hate gold:

"In other words, FOFOA is fighting for his job. He HATES gold."

All from the page 2 comments of the last Open Forum. Art likes to post on any thread that feeds him.

Art, do you even realize that you come across as someone who is slightly unhinged (detached from reality)? Truly, you do. But, you are probably the worst possible PR agent your kind could ask for, so carry on.

And to thank you, Art, I wanted to bring forward two HYSTERICAL videos that DP used in a comment to Art that, unfortunately, spent too many hours in the spam cell. So most of you probably didn't see them.

In this first one I'm assuming that Art is the cat, and the tennis ball is Freegold, or something like that:

Click --> Art the Cat

:)

And in this next one it looks like Art got on a train full of 'Freegolders'. It seems that being surrounded by 'Freegolders' caused Art to undress himself. Perhaps he also realized that this Freegold train was the only train going anywhere, so he decided to get off and run around naked? Oh, those 'Freegolders' are EVERYWHERE! EVERYWHERE I tell you! Run for your lives!!

Click --> Art rides the Freegold Train!

I guess it should be no surprise that Desperado and Rui kinda like the reality-challenged Art.

Oh, and Wendy, check your clock. While it does seem that Blogger has been doing some maintainance, you first posted "just checking" at 8:59. My first comment went up at seven minutes later at 9:06. Then my last one went up at 9:36, half hour later. Then you commented again at 9:55, less than an hour after your previous comment. So I don't know how you're coming up with four hours, unless you're hitting off Art's bong. ;)

Sincerely,
FOFOA

Anonymous said...

FOFOA,

thank you for your detailed response. I feel greatly honoured by the fact that you devote several pages to my thoughts on silver.

What else can I say? You cited Another and FOA (properly). There were no new facts or new points of view presented, and so everyone needs to do their own thinking, I suppose.

BTW: A look at www.lbma.org.uk reveals that we may already have what Fekete would call permanent backwardation in silver. It is certainly substantially longer than in any past case of shortage or cornering.

Victor

Anonymous said...

FOFOA SAYS: "You can 'want' silver to do the things you say until the cows come home. But the evidence says otherwise, to me at least, and to a few others who can see beyond their own hopes and desires.

"Here is one way in which I think gold and silver are very different. If the paper markets of both metals were to collapse simultaneously in a big financial collapse, I think silver would crash as gold skyrockets. I cannot prove this, but it is what the evidence tells me. It is my analysis."

OBSERVATION: How is it possible to have "evidence" and not be able to prove something? Proof requires evidence and is automatically accomplished when evidence is produced. Furthermore, how can paper crash if everything else is crashing as well (except for the Freegolders' metaphysically-challenged concept of gold of course)? A financial asset can only crash in relation to some other asset class that is not crashing.

FOFOA SAYS: "All those poor silver bugs (poor man's gold) dishoarding in favor of scarce food while the gold lies still."

OBSERVATION: Gold owners don't need to eat therefore they don't need to sell gold in order to buy food? Or is it because they will have secretly bought silver even though they disparage it? Are the famous Giants wimpy closet silver BUGS?

Didn't FOFOA say that gold transcends space and time and YOU still think that this guy makes sense?

How could anyone who is for gold also be against silver WITHOUT providing an iota of rational evidence to back their anti-silver position? (To say that Another or FOA said so is NOT evidence nor proof.) Both are rare monetary metals with similar physical properties, and I think silver is the more beautiful of the two metals. And these Freegolders say that silver will go to 50 cents an ounce while gold transcends time and space into eternity?

How many of the statements FOFOA made above are devoid of meaning and logic?

Does "Freegold" still makes sense to you?

Hello, yes YOU.

Pete said...

Excuse my interesting typo

Pete said...

@ Art

Can't believe I'm responding to this, but for the sake of other readers:

FOFOA isn't advocating gold for spending during 'sh#t hits the fat' scenarios, ie HyperInflation. FOFOA has mentioned many times that there are strategies to survive in the Hyperinflationary period - eg, stock up on food, even some cash. There's nothing wrong with buying some silver for this too.

But on the other side of Hyperinflation, what then? Where is all your paper wealth? This is where Freegold comes from - wealth preservation (and a little dose of value inflation).

So many times I see people commenting and trying to discredit Freegold by using these 'SHTF' scenario's as examples. So what? Hyperinflation doesn't last forever. Whatever you want to trade in that time, please yourself. But don't try to hack down Freegold with silly arguments like that.

Anonymous said...

PETE,

Where did I say that FOFOA recommends spending gold when SHTF?

None or you are responding to what I'm writing.

Pete said...

@ Art

So food will be permanently scarce under ArtGold. Got it.

Anonymous said...

PETE,

FOFOA says that silver holders will spend their silver to buy food while gold owners just SIT on their gold.

And YOU, you're addressing neither what I said nor what FOFOA said.

You must be a Freegolder.

Congratulations, you earned the right to wash FOFOA's feet tonight.

costata said...

All,

Just finished the last of the comments posted. I'm going to stop checking this thread now. A new one will be posted once some of the longer responses are ready.

To those who read my post, and like gary, found it wanting compared to FOFOA's work, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree.

Thank you for reading and commenting. I'm sorry I had to stop responding to individuals after the 250 comment mark but it was, unfortunately, a matter of time constraints.

If you care to read my responses, in the new thread, and comment again I will continue to be on my best behaviour until further notice.

Cheers

Pete said...

@ Art

Cash?

It's called having a job. If you don't have a job, or productive assets, then you will have to spend your savings to buy food if you don't have any.

In a non-SHTF scenario, people will have jobs and cash to spend. If people don't have any jobs, that is a SHTF scenario IMO... like Hyperinflation, which is frequently discussed here.

So if you can survive the SHTF period, and can get a job, why would you need to spend your savings?

Anonymous said...

Arrogance, mysticism and contempt for reality.

Freegold = fascism

Nothing new under the sun.

Goldilocks said...

@Art

So redeeming ones money for gold is about premiums?

So your Private Bank issues currency or digital money which is convertible to National Bank currency? Private Bank can engage in fractional reserve lending and expand the money supply as much as it likes but National Bank must back this 1:1?

ultarnerd said...

Remember there is only about 10 ounces of silver mined for every ounce of gold,that's it, that's all.I buy a lot of scrap and pay very few dollars on scrap silver jewelry while I pay out hundreds on gold so forget that flooding the market as silver is actually less common and its so cheap too.Actually there is less silver around where I live than there is gold, even by weight and that's amassing.Also recently read about at lest
one mint that sells 200 ounces of silver for every 1 ounce of gold so think about this for a second how is it possible for that to continue.

Yes there is no shortage of paper silver and depending how its done there may be no shortage of the physical no mater how much is sold as long as what people are actually buying is mostly paper.Seriously there may well be absolutely no limit to the amount of paper silver and here is what I think this may mean.I need to check this out more but I have read on one of my blogs that the COMEX contracts can now as of recently now be settled in SLV and GLD shares and that those in turn have small print to allow cash settling.If this is true then they may be setting up for the biggest money making hits ever.Here is how it would work, when they are ready and can no longer manipulate the markets to make more profit from this game they will crash the whole paper silver to say 1.00 an ounce and then cash settle with you paying you the paper price while the physical goes into sever backwardation to hundreds per ounce. This trick can only work to its full extreme just the one time as all credibility gets lost when the fraud gets exposed.But look they are legally protected,that's clever.And as a bonus for the Chinese etc, keep the sheople buying the paper while the smart money scoops up the real thing.Why do I believe this, well its simple because that's exactly what I would do if I were as ruthless as them, so reason is all I need and it should be enough for others too.

Even I bought about 1000 ounces of silver ingots to only 1.5 ounces gold bars as I knew I could get lots of scrap gold locally and I have but only get most my silver from old relays and only occasionally as jewelry.Average old washing machine give me abut 1/10 ounce in all switches and this is the stuff that's usually not recycled.
Fewer want silver in jewelry, its just so cheap in price and that would change if it were ever worth more.
Always drove me crazy when people would say gold has so little uses it should not be worth anything and you cant eat gold etc all, so what good is it.
Yet its ironic here that if you look close enough you may actually see it may actually be because silver is so useful that its so cheap while gold has so little uses that its so valuable.This may in part be to a similar reason that no one would want copper to be used for money otherwise its price would be forced up to compete with its use as currency, driving its price up too much to use in your house for wiring.Now remember again,there is only 10 ounces of silver to every ounce of gold.

Much as I have studied on this subject I did actually learn some here.

Pete said...

@ Art

And don't forget foodstamps, unemployment benefits, etc.

Why spend gold for your essentials when you can get them for free?

Although I suspect Govt. benefits will disappear after the SHTF.

@mortymer001 said...

Prasarn Trairatvorakul: Towards a multi-polar currency and reserve
system
Speech by Dr Prasarn Trairatvorakul, Governor of the Bank of Thailand, at the High-Level
Conference on the International Monetary System, Zurich, 10 May 2011.

http://bis.org/review/r110511b.pdf?ql=1

"...4. The third issue is, despite the shortcomings of the current international monetary system, the international community has not been able to make a transition to an alternative system. In practice, it is difficult to identify a currency to compete with the US dollar as there are certain criteria to qualify as reserve currency. First, a reserve-issuing country has to illustrate a good track record of prudent macroeconomic policy. Second, such country must have an open capital account regime supported by deep and liquid financial markets. Should these two criteria are satisfied, such currency has a potential to be widely accepted and used in private international transactions. Today, it is difficult to find an alternative currency which satisfies these conditions. The loss of economies of scale from using the incumbent currency is another constraint preventing the move away from the current dollar-based system. As such, the dollar continues to dominate the international reserve system both in terms of reserve assets and international trade and financial settlements....

5. Given these difficulties, the current international monetary system will prevail but it may be prone to occasional instability as we have experienced in the past...."

"...9. Let me finish my talk with some comment on the SDR. In theory, there are many good reasons to enhance the role of SDR as one of its distinct advantages is the possibility of managing global liquidity without affecting the value of currencies in the basket. In addition, the basket also has the diversification advantage as the system will be less exposed to shocks in any of its constituent economies. At this time, it may not be possible to move towards this system as there is not enough political support and many operational hurdles remain to be overcome. Nevertheless, it is important for the IMF to continue its work on how to broaden the use of SDR in all aspects of an international currency (i.e. store of value, medium of exchange and unit of account).


10. In closing, I would like to stress that the international monetary system is certainly in a period of transition. I do not expect a big bang, but a long and gradual process arising from macroeconomic and structural adjustments. Policy dialogue and cooperation between current and prospective reserve-issuing countries will play an important role in ensuring this smooth transition. As there are so many uncertainties along the way, it would take great leadership from some advanced and major emerging market economies to move the world forward towards a more stable international monetary system.
Thank you"

@mortymer001 said...

Andrew G Haldane: The short long
Speech by Mr Andrew Haldane, Executive Director, Financial Stability, and Mr Richard Davies, Economist, Financial Institutions Division, Bank of England, at the 29th Société Universitaire Européene de Recherches Financières Colloquium, Brussels, 11 May 2011.

http://bis.org/review/r110511e.pdf?ql=1

@mortymer001 said...

Then there is this interesting article about IMFs:

http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-why-the-west-is-attacking-gaddafi.aspx?article=3481351794G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Michael+S.+Rozeff

& it is good to read the whole transcript:

http://metaexistence.org/gaddafispeech.htm

Desperado said...

Hello Fofoa,

I agree with Victor. Another and Foa may have had extraordinary insight into what was happening, but the flow of history is to a large degree governed by zeitgeist. They did not know how the hoveled masses would react to events and who would rise to power on their shoulders. No one knows how the pile of wrecked train cars at the bottom of the trestle are going to look after this train goes off of the tracks.

My father died in 2000 and I often wonder what he would think about all that has gone down: Tech bubble, 9/11, Bush Jr, WMD, Afganistan, Iraq, Housing bubble, Bear Sterns, Lehman, TARP, Obama, QE, and now these in your face lies about the birth certificate and Bin Laden.

The worlds elites all have one thing in common: the suppression and manipulation of the masses and their shared and lurid guilt in the this monetary system that has been exploiting the masses for centuries.

In your reply to Victor you wrote:

"Here is one way in which I think gold and silver are very different. If the paper markets of both metals were to collapse

simultaneously in a big financial collapse, I think silver would crash as gold skyrockets. I cannot prove this, but it is what the evidence tells me. It is my analysis. I think that in a physical-only market the purchasing power of gold would be much higher than today and the purchasing power of silver would be much lower. "


The evidence, or more correctly my gut feelings based on my analysis and thinking, tell me that the giants conspired in the post Napoleonic era to demonetize silver, and then in the post WWI era to demonetize gold, for the masses anyway.

cont...

Desperado said...

p2
Now we are on the threshold of a new era where it is to be expected that these same giants (or their heirs) who will have robbed and impoverished most of the worlds middle classes through their reckless and selfish debasing of fiat, will also control the vast majority of the gold on the other side.

In this scenario I will not be satisfied to see the giants hold and control the sole store of wealth while the impoverished middle classes are forced to claw their way back to prosperity using a "new" fiat that is "backed" by the floating freegold reserves of their sovereigns.

This relates to Pete's comment ""No usable unit of account for one’s books, so losses will (temporarily) look like gains.". This would mean that the taxman would expect a larger cut than from normal business, no? "

The desperate and bankrupt sovereigns, controlled by the giants, will use this fiat to steal the labor from and get control over the impoverished and struggling middle classes. These lower and middle classes will need an un-counterfeitable PM of their own, likely silver.

And lets face it, it is these potential users of silver who actually create the "flow" of wealth that is supposedly stored in gold anyway.

So the giants and the sovereigns will undoubtedly try to ban or diminish silver in order to force silver users to accept their fiat, just as Roosevelt did with gold in '33 and just as the NY bankers did to silver during the crime of '73. I am convinced of this, so this is why I made so many nazi analogies. If freegold can only come to pass through the murdering of "freesilver" and the further enslavement of the middle classes, then freegold is IMO little better than nazigold. This is the point I have been trying to make and for which I have drawn so much abuse.

cont...

Desperado said...

p3
And this gets to another thing that bothers me about all these esoteric discussions of freegold: they all seem to happen in an economic petri dish where there are no corrupt, evil and greedy giants trying to warp everything to their advantage. I have no doubt that if China's growth path continues and it reaches trade dominance over Asia and the Americas that her oligarchy could bring about freesilver if they so desired, similar to Victor's discussion of a silver trading zone in South America.

Similarly in a newly restored and constitutional US, I think tax laws could be writted to allow a bi-metallic (or even multi-metallic) free currency. For example, VAT could be charged on silver, while silver could be the denominator used for calulating capital gains taxes from gold. This would allow the trades people their own currency that could float in relation to the currency of "kings". In this way when there is an over abundance of production, the GSR would rise. In a famine, the GSR would fall precipitously motivating the producing class to produce more to gain more silver in order to aquire the metal of kings.

There are numerous other scenarios where Greshams law could lead to gold being driven into hiding and silver becoming dominant.

And finally, I would like to support James's statement above: "Further, if an individual wishes to contribute to the cause of the demise of fiat currencies worldwide he or she buys physical PM's. Its the only possible way to contribute to the end of the bankers control of the world. Silver and gold bugs should be working together on the common cause, not wasting time bickering over the perceived benefits of gold over silver or vice versa."

There is far less of a problem with silverites demonizing goldbugs. The air of entitlement and arrogance seems to be unidirectional here, and the gold bugs are, perhaps inadvertently, but also some perhaps deliberately, working to continue the dominance and control of the sovereign's and their giant cronies.

The flow of time has revealed bends in the river that Another could not see from his perch on the ridge top.

Cheers,

Desperado

DP said...

@VtC (to Jthenewer)

Good morning!

I see that FOFOA has responded to you already. As always, he has done a far better job of it than I ever could.

However, I feel it would be rude of me not to acknowledge your tip of the wig in my direction.

1) So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that first gold will be cleaned out and then, as a result of this unavailability of gold, silver demand will follow. I like your thinking. IMO the [golden] egg comes before the chicken. BTW, do you like animals? I find it funny when I see people taking their dogs for a walk and having to keep dragging them by the lead to stop them sniffing in the long grass. I mean, who's in charge here?! Keep up, damn mutt! And in the rain too.

2) People may have their silverware melted down, for what? A good question. For whatever it is they need, because they unfortunately can't afford those things outside of liquidating their existing assets. Their own [cash]flow is impaired, so they have to dishoard their own stock of assets for which there is any demand at the time. I don't see them bothering to sell silver flatware to change it into silver coin though. Silver is silver. Kids gotta eat, heaters gotta burn.

3) $55,000/oz gold? Where do we people get this figure from? Actually, it's been upgraded by FOFOA recently to $60,000 -- but that doesn't really matter, because it is still just an estimate. He gets this by extrapolating events since Another 'showed' him, a long time ago now, the price at the time in the interbank (CB) physical-only gold market, at the BIS. I am sure you have seen there is a two-tier gold market in this world from what you have read many times in the various archives by now, so I don't suppose I need to say more about that. As to whether a number of other assets appear a lot more competitive, well I just beg to differ personally. You can agree with me or not, it's your prerogative and you can and should spend your cash as you best see fit. Caveat emptor and all that.

4) This time will offer breathtaking volatility which means opportunities. Yes. For those with valuable assets, in high demand and low supply, to exchange for them. As you indicate yourself, silver will be contining to flow (because people with silver* will trade it for things they really need). Meanwhile gold** will sit still, because many of the people holding it don't need to sell it. In fact, many of those people will continue to buy more. Perhaps you can appreciate why, in my view, 1:5000 is not such a ridiculous idea? And just maybe silver could be one of those many breathtaking opportunities? And that, if silver is doing relatively well in $ terms, how the $:Au ratio might perhaps be somewhat more than 1:5000. I am, personally, comfortable in taking a risk that you are right and I am wrong. My view forces me to take this side in our wager.

... cont'd...

DP said...

... cont'd... (2)

I'm very pleased to hear that you have kept my sign from Desperado's door. Signs are easily replaced, so it won't cause any problems for anyone else following later.

I am also smiling that you noticed my lack of a staggered start in the 1oz/1oz race, which I did realise might have been more readily accepted if it had been perhaps you starting today with 35oz of silver. However, 10x35 (or even 10x70) is still quite a lot less than 5,000 so I didn't bother to go back to restate - he would still be one step ahead unless you had somewhat more of a mountain of silver at the start line. I was a little disappointed you chose not to respond to my more important point though, where I said in my view your Latin Adventure is a distant dream, while Jeff's European Vacation is a lock but he just doesn't know when the plane leaves. It's a magical mystery tour. What fun! The excitement of knowing you're going but waiting to find out when exactly the limo will pull up outside!

Anyway, as you say, at some point in the future you and I can I hope get together for cocktails, somewhere in the world or another, and laugh at my crazy sign you have kept in storage. I hope it doesn't get too dusty, because I am pretty thirsty just thinking about it! :-) Maybe you are buying, maybe I am buying. But I hope either way we can enjoy the drinks as we sing a song together.

Sincerely,

DP :-)

* poor man's gold
** rich man's gold

DP said...

@Desperado, I wish you luck in your attempt to Stick It To The Man.

But my view is you're just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Piripi said...

Freegold gives an objective valuation to paper currency, as discovered by the market.

It is no longer possible to misappropriate value from anyone via the issuance of either additional paper or credit, as these are reflected in the floating exchange rate between said paper currency and unencumbered physical gold. The paper currency is automatically discounted, but as everyone will have access to gold to protect their wealth, this practice of inflation is detrimental to the issuer rather than the saver. The less stability in the value of the currency, the less usage demand it enjoys. There is no value in printing a currency no one wants to use.

Desperado said, ”The desperate and bankrupt sovereigns, controlled by the giants, will use this fiat to steal the labor from and get control over the impoverished and struggling middle classes...will undoubtedly try to ban or diminish silver in order to force silver users to accept their fiat... I am convinced of this, so this is why I made so many nazi analogies. If freegold can only come to pass through the murdering of "freesilver" and the further enslavement of the middle classes, then freegold is IMO little better than nazigold. This is the point I have been trying to make and for which I have drawn so much abuse. “

The reason you have drawn so much “abuse” is because you have consistently failed to recognize that your understanding of freegold is flawed. It does not enable the theft of value from anyone, it disables it, and in doing so completely invalidates your point.

Freegold removes the inequity from the system that we all detest. From that point on, the producer of surplus value gets to keep that value. Misappropriation is disabled.

I feel obliged to describe this once again for the benefit of those who find other gloomy descriptions somewhat lacking in courage.

Piripi said...

I have no issue with silver whatsoever. It is simply not needed in order to enjoy an equitable system, which at the end of the day is what will deliver the results we all want.

It's no more complicated than that.

Motley Fool said...

Hi art

You keep coming up with these bullshit arguments that show your ignorance to the concept of Freegold.

What is savings? Value stored, which is not used for immediate consumption. We can further refine savings into three categories : short term, medium term and long term.

Gold is for saving long term ie. for retirement, sometimes gold could be used for medium term savings ie. Saving up a deposit for a car. No one suggested putting short term savings in gold in order to be killed by exchange premiums. Except you.. with your strawman rhetoric.

As to your other nonsense. We don't have Freegold now. The “free” in Freegold refers to gold being freed of paper claims against it, such as futures and derivatives. Gold is NOT free of the paper leash at present. We do NOT have a free exchange rate between only physical gold and paper money. With in excess of 100 paper claims existing for every real ounce of gold , to claim we have Freegold now is imbecilic.

Read my reply, then reread it... continue doing that until you understand what I am saying, and then you can reply.

Repeating your bullshit over and over again doesn't make it anything else, it remains bullshit.

@Desperado

It is important to distinguish between what you would like to happen, and what will happen. The former may turn out be the same as the latter, but then again it may not be. Before discovering Freegold I was a activist, promoting the use of gold and Real Bills as per AE Fekete. I have since seen the futility in that approach( not to mention some flaws). In this imperfect world, Freegold is the best we can hope for realistically. And it turns out it's not so bad.

Your comments about the middle class being wiped out because of lack of Freesilver is a bit silly imo for one simple reason. How many people actually have silver? Seriously. Beyond maybe one silver bracelet and one gold wedding band, J6P has nothing but paper. When one associates with primarily gold or silver bugs( or advocates) one tends to forget they comprise maybe 1% of the population.

@others.. please excuse my language, I am quite annoyed with Art's nonsense and rudeness.

Peace

TF

Anonymous said...

AD,

1. No, the only reason for using gold as money is not to avoid transaction costs or premiums as you put it. (I pointed that out to debunk the Freegolder's idea that gold could be a savings vehicle under Freegold.)

The main reason to use gold as money is to take away the power of the ruling classes to create worthless tokens out of thin air and use them to bid for all that's available for sale. This is not right.

2. No, the proceeds of the credit that private banks would create could be likened to private scrip which is not legal tender money and only a form of credit. However these loans must be paid back in legal-tender gold-backed currency or plain vanilla gold (or silver). Yes, the debtor must pay something for what is possibly nothing. On the other hand, no one else is obligated to exchange his valuable goods and services or gold-backed currency against your private scrip which you got from a private bank.

As I said I abhor the idea of debt and usury and I'm against it. But I also want people to have the freedom to do what they like as long as it doesn't harm others.

This arrangement makes sure that private losses are not socialized. Private credit or scrip is not backed nor regulated by the National Bank so private losses are not socialized. If banks commit fraud and hurt people, that's a crime for which the bankers go to jail or worse. No mere slaps on the wrist by so-called bank regulators.

Yes, you are free to sell a bridge to nowhere as long as you state plainly that that's exactly what it is. And yes, you are free to buy it if you are of sound mind and you know what you're doing. But you cannot expect nor force others to use your bridge.

Michael H said...

victor,

"A figure for which you can put up some historic precedent and some actual numbers, however, is around $15000/ounce in today's dollars. Given the enormous uncertainties, this would mean a target range of $7500 to $22500."

FWIW, I agree with you on this point. Partly because I am agnostic about what the actual target will be, but mostly because even the though of $55k gold pushes my 'greed' buttons much too much to allow for rational thought.

"However you spin it, one conclusion is that trade imbalances will need to shrink very radically."

My point was more than that -- if two regions are on different metal monetary systems, it won't just be net imbalances that would shrink, it would be total gross trade that would shrink.

Silver flows in one direction, gold flows in the other. Eventually the flows would stop, and along with it the flow of goods.

Does this make sense? I'm afraid I might not be explaining my position very clearly.

ultranerd,

"Yet its ironic here that if you look close enough you may actually see it may actually be because silver is so useful that its so cheap while gold has so little uses that its so valuable.This may in part be to a similar reason that no one would want copper to be used for money otherwise its price would be forced up to compete with its use as currency, driving its price up too much to use in your house for wiring."

Exactly!

Unknown said...

@ Blondie & Desperado,

If I understand Desperado's point, it is not that Freegold in theory is not equitable, nor the rate-limiting "complicated" issue, but rather that the reality of the human condition, fraught with all it's history of flaws, that is.

In a perfect world, with perfect knowledge of equitable concepts soveriegn persons may independently embrace freegold. But individuals all start with varying realities on the path to freedom and soveriegnty. It is this 'flow' of truth seekers versus the the 'stock' of existing sovereigns that may be to mercurial (pun) to divine between freegold and freesilver.

Anonymous said...

TO ALL,

I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend that you read the 3 part commentary by DESPERADO above.

It is like a SILVER stake driven into the heart of the vampire (Freegold):

"The desperate and bankrupt sovereigns, controlled by the giants, will use this fiat to steal the labor from and get control over the impoverished and struggling middle classes. These lower and middle classes will need an un-counterfeitable PM of their own, likely silver.

"And lets face it, it is these potential users of silver who actually create the "flow" of wealth that is supposedly stored in gold anyway.

"So the giants and the sovereigns will undoubtedly try to ban or diminish silver in order to force silver users to accept their fiat, just as Roosevelt did with gold in '33 and just as the NY bankers did to silver during the crime of '73. I am convinced of this, so this is why I made so many nazi analogies. If freegold can only come to pass through the murdering of 'freesilver' and the further enslavement of the middle classes, then freegold is IMO little better than nazigold. This is the point I have been trying to make and for which I have drawn so much abuse."

THANK YOU SIR!

THANK YOU!

Michael H said...

Desperado,

I admit that I find it hard to figure out your position. On the one hand, you seem pro-capitalist in a Randian sense, and on the other hand you seem to advocate almost anarcho-egalitarian ideals.

"In this scenario I will not be satisfied to see the giants hold and control the sole store of wealth while the impoverished middle classes are forced to claw their way back to prosperity using a "new" fiat that is "backed" by the floating freegold reserves of their sovereigns."

the giants will not be giants because they control the store of wealth. They'll be giants because they control the flow and production of goods and resources. Just like today Bill Gates is not wealty because he has billions of dollars, he's wealthy because he owns Microsoft. He could not hold a single ounce of gold through a transition to freegold, and still come out the other side a giant.


"The desperate and bankrupt sovereigns, controlled by the giants, will use this fiat to steal the labor from and get control over the impoverished and struggling middle classes. These lower and middle classes will need an un-counterfeitable PM of their own, likely silver. "

Who sets the value of a currency? It is the reciever of the currency, not the issuer. The same would go for an 'un-counterfeitable PM of their own'. The lower and middle classes could use such money as they saw fit as long as it was amongst themselves. When it comes time to buy software, however, they have to pay in a form that is acceptable to Mr. Gates.

This may seem unfair and all, but these sorts of hierarchies have been a problem of civilization for millenia. Indeed, it could be argued that these hierarchies *are* civilization, and you can't have one without the other.

"And lets face it, it is these potential users of silver who actually create the "flow" of wealth that is supposedly stored in gold anyway."

In this way, I believe freegold will be "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" for the majority of people i.e. lower and lower-middle classes. But I don't see much chance of things working out otherwise.

What I mean is, the wealth created will go to those that control the means of production, to borrow from Marx. The sweatshop workers will still make the equivalent of $1 per day, but the sweatshop owner will now be able to save his excess profits in gold.

Harsh as it seems, this would still be an improvement over today's system. Currently, even the sweatshop owner gets his profits diverted by the financiers.

In short, I see freegold as the replacement of one elite, who built their power by using the paper financial system, by a different elite whose power is based on ownership and control of the production of real goods and services.

"I have no doubt that if China's growth path continues and it reaches trade dominance over Asia and the Americas that her oligarchy could bring about freesilver if they so desired, similar to Victor's discussion of a silver trading zone in South America."

This is an interesting point. China would be the only wild card; a superpower with the clout to lead world events. However I still don't think China could act alone. Perhaps if there is another world war and China emerges unscathed while the rest of the world burned, it would work out the same way for them than it did for the USA after WWI and WWII.

"There are numerous other scenarios where Greshams law could lead to gold being driven into hiding and silver becoming dominant."

Think about the ramifications of this statement carefully. Gold driven into hiding = good money being hoarded. Silver becoming dominant = bad money circulates. Silver circulating = high velocity, which means lower purchasing power. Do you agree with these points?

Michael H said...

Darnit.

Desperado, I wrote you a response, but I believe it is stuck in the spam filter. If it doesn't reappear I'll repost.

Anonymous said...

BLONDIE SAYS: "Freegold gives an objective valuation to paper currency, as discovered by the market."

LOGIC SAYS: An objective valuation CANNOT be given without objective numbers and/or quantities being ascribed to the RELATIONSHIP of gold to paper currencies. This relationship can CHANGE and the valuation may fluctuate; but things can only change in relation to an objective reference point that is fixed in time and space.

So NOT everything can float ALL of the time.

Anonymous said...

BLONDIE SAYS:

"The reason you have drawn so much 'abuse' is because you have consistently failed to recognize that your understanding of freegold is flawed. It does not enable the theft of value from anyone, it disables it, and in doing so completely invalidates your point...Freegold removes the inequity from the system that we all detest...Misappropriation is disabled.

"I feel obliged to describe this once again for the benefit of those who find other gloomy descriptions somewhat lacking in courage."

HOW AND WHERE DID YOU DO THAT, BLONDIE?

Tell us in a few sentences HOW Freegold removes "the inequity from the system"?

Freegold doesn't do that JUST BECAUSE BLONDIE SAID SO.

Blondie must SHOW how Freegold does this, otherwise Blondie will have committed the fallacy of mere assertion.

Anonymous said...

MOTLEY FOOL,

You keep coming up with these "bullshit arguments" that I don't understand Freegold.

Michael H said...

Gknowmx,

"In a perfect world, with perfect knowledge of equitable concepts soveriegn persons may independently embrace freegold."

I view it differently. In this imperfect world, the choices of the 1% of people that control the vast majority of the goods and resources matter much more than the choices of the other 99%. I think FOFOA has made very sound arguments as to why that 1% will choose gold.

Indenture said...

Art: Is there anything about Freegold (as defined by this blog) that you agree with or like?

Anonymous said...

MICHAEL H SAYS: "Who sets the value of a currency? It is the reciever [sic] of the currency, not the issuer."

COMMENT: OK, I'll tell the grocery store clerk that the one dollar bill I just handed her is really worth $100 in my opinion and that's how much groceries I'm going to buy now since that's what I value it at.

This is Freegold DOUBLETHINK fresh out of the oven (sic) for you.

FREEGOLD = NAZIGOLD

Rui said...

@Blondie

"It is no longer possible to misappropriate value from anyone via the issuance of either additional paper or credit, as these are reflected in the floating exchange rate between said paper currency and unencumbered physical gold. "

Well it is as possible as how elites are hacking employment #s, rigging CPI stats and marking bank's balance sheet to fantasy now. Whenever the data becomes embarrassing, they rig it.

Issuing paper money is tremendous power, and tremendous power attracts tremendous corruption. Always does. You are giving the monetary control to the folks launching a brand new Libya war without seeking approval, and you are telling us they'd somehow behave when it comes to issuing FIAT?

Too young, too simple, and sometimes naive.

See the problem of FG theory is you are giving us too good a promise that just ain't gonna happen.

Anonymous said...

INDENTURE,

Your fellow Freegolder MICHAEL H says "...I believe freegold will be 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'...".

Now I agree with THAT statement by this Freegolder like yourself.

Anonymous said...

MICHAEL H SAYS: "What I mean is, the wealth created will go to those that control the means of production, to borrow from Marx. The sweatshop workers will still make the equivalent of $1 per day, but the sweatshop owner will now be able to save his excess profits in gold."

FREEGOLD = SWEATSHOPS

Jeff said...

Rui,

What part of "as these are reflected in the floating exchange rate between said paper currency and unencumbered physical gold." did you not understand?

They don't have to behave re: issuing fiat. The price of gold vs. fiat will adjust for their behavior.

Anonymous said...

GENIUS FREEGOLDER MICHAEL H SAYS: "...I see freegold as the replacement of one elite, who built their power by using the paper financial system, by a different elite whose power is based on ownership and control of the production of real goods and services."

LET'S SEE, Mr. Freegolder is going to go to Washington, knock on the White House door, flash his physical gold and take over the world.

I think the MOGAMBU GURU already tried that without much success to the best of my knowledge, my genius Freegolders.

Anonymous said...

THE FREEGOLDER GENIUS MICHAEL H CONTINUES: "Think about the ramifications of this statement carefully. Gold driven into hiding = good money being hoarded. Silver becoming dominant = bad money circulates. Silver circulating = high velocity, which means lower purchasing power. Do you agree with these points?

GENIUS, according to Freegolder lore, gold is NOT money; it's WEALTH and SAVINGS ONLY. Yes, true, just as you say, Freegolders do not intend to actually spend their gold until eventually one day they figure out a way to EAT gold.

I also take note of your claim that if money circulates and people like it so much that they use it more and more, it must be because it' BAD money.

FREEGOLD = FREE LAUGHS

Rui said...

@ Jeff

"The price of gold vs. fiat will adjust for their behavior. "

Is that so? Then why is it not reflected NOW?

We both know why: Govt all over the world rig it with their 100:1 paper to physical suppression scheme (among other shenanigans). And you are telling me the same crooks would miraculously quit it under FG?!

Like Art points out. FG is what you have NOW.

Wendy said...

Art are you MOGAMBU GURU? That's exactly who you sound like.

Unknown said...

Michael H said...
Gknowmx,

"In a perfect world, with perfect knowledge of equitable concepts soveriegn persons may independently embrace freegold."

"I view it differently. In this imperfect world, the choices of the 1% of people that control the vast majority of the goods and resources matter much more than the choices of the other 99%. I think FOFOA has made very sound arguments as to why that 1% will choose gold."

Indeed, but the human condition the last I checked is such that even that 1% can't avoid death. The concept of freegold does not stay behind with the physical gold. Gold, or silver outlasts even the 'stock' of Giants. And let's be clear-- Giants can't actually be concepts like corporations but rather are select humans that run them. Giants through the history of man have changed and not all, and likely few, Giants became Giants through brute intellectual mastery of concepts rather than brute force. A great weakness of freegold is it's reliance on the actions of Giants. Individuals who come to realize freedom and sovereignty may sooner conspire to embrace freesilver to eradicate Giants who embrace 'freegold' under false pretenses. In our unprecedented age of information, the 'flow' of persons discovering the power of concepts is leading to an equally unprecedented race to control our limited physical resources. Fewer and fewer Giants will be able to fool all of the newly sovereign all the time. To be sure Giants will beget Giants, but will their natural replacement rate be their undoing?

But the information age may not be kind to the sovereign man either for if we are to believe that humanity is also racing towards the Singularity event horizon we may not have long to rejoice in freegold even if it does arrive.

Desperado said...

@Blondie, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You state that freegold "does not enable the theft of value from anyone, it disables it, and in doing so completely invalidates your point."

Freegold starts from the opening gate with each of the "giants" in possession of dozens of tons of gold stolen through fiat printing and government regulatory capture representing the value of the labor of generations of thousands of people. This gold plus past connections plus a history of generations of greed and power hunger guarantees that freegold will end up in the "theft of value".

This is why the working class needs silver. With a little luck the middle and working class, those who truly create value, will ban all the elites with all their gold to one small island in the pacific where they can inbreed like Lt. Christian and his band in mutineers.

Michael H said...

Hello Gknowmx,

Can you help me better understand your position? There are a few things I'm unclear about.

"A great weakness of freegold is it's reliance on the actions of Giants."

Why is it a weakness? From what premises would you build your predictions of what the future monetary system will be?

"Individuals who come to realize freedom and sovereignty may sooner conspire to embrace freesilver to eradicate Giants who embrace 'freegold' under false pretenses."

How would individuals embracing silver eradicate giants?

"humanity is also racing towards the Singularity event horizon"

I understand what this means.

Michael H said...

Oops. What I meant to say is:

"humanity is also racing towards the Singularity event horizon"

I *don't* understand what this means.

Indenture said...

Art: Why are you here?

tEON said...

Or just watch Borat in Brüno - the accurate source of political discourse...

Anonymous said...

Yep,

Freegolders will transcend their "biological limitations" when the Singularity is attained and discover a way to EAT gold in the process instead of selling gold to buy trivial things like food.

Anonymous said...

INDENTURE,

I'm here to prove that Freegold is FRAUD and to save people from buying your lies.

tEON said...

@Derek

You are capable of neither, Bud.

Indenture said...

Art: Ok. I just wanted to know. So you're trying to save 'me' from Fraud. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.

So FOFOA is trying to trick me into buying gold.
Trick me to buy Gold.
Hhhmmm....
Trick me to buy Gold?
How dare you FOFOA!

Paul said...

people like art are THE reason why freegold is inevitable.

to quote Another
"you think long and hard on this"

;-)

radix46 said...

Paul, Indenture,

How ironic that Art is one of the best adverts for Freegold!

Aquilus said...

Paul, exactly... (Sigh)

Especially with trying to turn a blog about the likeliest of next monetary system into a crusade about social justice for the masses, as well as shouting down every response with more of the same hard money appeal.

Seems like Art's motto is the old: "The (brow)beatings will continue until morale improves".

What else can one say - he's got an idea, and will outshout anyone that has a different idea. So sad...

Robert Mix said...

Art, Desperado,

I do not Freegold as a fascist concept. In FOFOA's "The Shoeshine Boy", he explained how even the very poorest among us can participate in gold / Freegold.

Crossposting from ZH, I seek the blog's comments:

One other observation: I have yet to see ANYONE who says that they will trade their GOLD for SILVER. Silver for gold..., yes, but not the other way around. So, which metal is being held by the strongest hands? That would be gold. My hands. And the central banks.

Jeff said...

Also from ZH:

Central banks purchase 127 tons of gold in Q1.

And central banks purchase 0 tons of silver in Q1. :)

Indenture said...

radix46: Yes,he does a wonderful job of reminding me why Freegold fits the answers to so many questions but, like FOFOA said, he might be distracting to newcomers. On this thread, 500 posts in, his exposure is minimal but a new post?
Art: It's your language and gruff forcefulness. Your message is worthy of debate but as my Daddy always said, 'We don't get into pissing contests with skunks'.
Try smiling Dude:)
Give a bunny a hug or something!

Anonymous said...

No, liar.

I mean Mr. INDENTURE,

No, liar. FOFOA says use fiat as money. FOFOA does not just say buy gold: he says USE ONLY FIAT AND PAPER AS MONEY (and you can perhaps protect yourself from the disaster that this will cause by buying gold -- on which you will lose money the moment yous sell it if you dare spend it like I said you shouldn't even if you're STARVING). GET IT?
But of course you are, aren't you, insidious creature?

FOFOA is trying to trick us normal people into conceding FOFOA and his masters the right to CONTINUE printing paper money and thereby continue screwing us regular folks forever. FOFOA says buys gold only to rationalize his REAL goal of the continued legitimization of the issuance of fiat by his ilk.

FOFOA is trying to play good cop/bad cop with his disingenuous and only superficially pro-gold stance, but his ABSOLUTE REFUSAL to the usage of gold as MONEY proves that FOFOA really HATES gold for what it is, namely HONEST MONEY -that's eventually going to bite crooks like him in the ass.

FYI, YOU are on FOFOA's side.

JMan1959 said...

Fofoa,

Anyone see the 60 Minutes piece on the mortgage industry document fraud? Jim Sinclair's jsmineset website has the segment in it's entirety if anyone cares to watch it. At the end of the segment, Sheila Bair, head of the FDIC, proposes a "clean-up" fund to handle all the lawsuits and clean up the losses. She is already talking about socializing the losses! Sound familiar?

From Hyperinflation vs. Deflation:

"The hit" can be socialized:

"Human nature has followed this path for thousands of years. You know the old joke about outrunning the bear? Well, these lenders will influence our financial policy as such. They will try to get their debt securities liquefied first, spend the fiat and in this process outrun you and I. Leaving anyone they can beat to the mercy of the hyperinflation bear eating their remaining fiat assets…"

"…hyperinflation is the process of saving debt at all costs, even buying it outright for cash… because policy will allow the printing of cash, if necessary, to cover every last bit of debt and dumping it on your front lawn!"

Nice prognostication, Fofoa.
Maybe you should put that Johnny Cash song on the next post.

"I can hear that train a comin..."

Anonymous said...

FREEGOLD = The Bernank + The Federal Reserve + Goldman Sucks

"Buy" it at your peril.

Aquilus said...

I just had a funny vision about Art's honest money world in which as far as I can tell the only money is metallic.

Assume his world was reality today. Here's Art going to buy a $35000 new SUV today:

Art: Ok, done, I'm buying this.
Dealer: Ok sir. How will you be paying for this?
Art: In REAL MONEY - silver of course.
Dealer: Let's see, that will be 68.5 pounds of silver, or 31.1 Kilos please
Art. Yup, I'll be right back with my wheelbarrow.

Bogey said...

Art reminds me of why I stopped following Chapman. Will you be recommending Hellix next, Art?

Anonymous said...

Why you Freegolders keep on LYING about what I said?

I said that gold-backed currency is fine as well.

Aquilus said...

Ok Art, my apologies. Help me understand: will the gold-backed currency be backed by a fixed ratio to gold, or if not how is that determined.

And no hysterics please, just the answer if possible.

Anonymous said...

Actually, both gold- and SILVER-backed currencies are acceptable.

Anonymous said...

AQUILUS,

I explained all that SEVERAL TIMES already. One more time just for you:

ALTERNATIVE TO FREEGOLD (Freegold is the monetary system that we have NOW!)

1)Gold and silver circulating as two independent forms of money WITHOUT fixed but MARKET-DETERMINED fluctuating ratios to each other, plus;

2)Currency redeemable in gold and silver at non-fixed fluctuating rates circulating alongside and competing with precious metal money.

3)A nonprofit national bank that issues gold-backed currency only but NOT debt- or credit-generated money.

4)A private for-profit banking sector that can issue loans for productive enterprise or sensible purchases or speculation purposes. NO reserve requirements and FRACTIONAL banking permitted. BUT the scrip equivalent of the proceeds of these loans are not legal tender AND must be repaid in gold-backed legal tender.

HOWEVER, NO FDIC, i.e., NO socialization of losses. The National Bank does not stand behind private scrip. You gamble, you may lose. The banker gambles, he can lose. The banker cheats, he can lose his head.

THE TWO MAIN ANTI-FREEGOLD ARGUMENTS:

1. If you "save" in gold and have to sell your gold every time you want to buy something, you will pay the bankers and the coin dealers fees and commissions each time PLUS they will buy your gold back for LESS and sell it to you for MORE when you want to convert your currency back into gold in order to "save" it. This is pure economic suicide! In the process, you will basically LOSE everything you have if you thus "save" your wealth in gold.

WHY Freegold when Freegold will ANNIHILATE your wealth, your money and your savings and deflate your wages to oblivion through inflation over time?

2. Fiat or paper currency causes economic apartheid and hyperinflation (and eventually social conflict, warfare and bloodshed). This is why:

WHO issues and controls fiat currency? NOT you and I. WHO pays basically NOTHING for fiat currency and creates it out of thin air to bid for all the goods and services available on the planet? NOT you and I. WHO has to work their asses off in order to obtain some of that worthless "medium of exchange" so that they can pay for food and shelter?

YOU and I.

FREEGOLDERS are saying that fiat currency is the BEST form of money = FREEGOLDERS are fomenting economic injustice and political turmoil.

WHY Freegold when the fundamental rationale for its existence is DESTROYED before your very own eyes?

Aquilus said...

Ok Art, much better.

Now if we could only drop the social justice crusade for a little bit, and focus on the mechanics.

Point 1 and 2, I can understand without a problem.

Point 3 questions:
3.1 What are the mechanics of issuing this currency? Is the rate at which it is issued the going market rate that day?
3.2 What is the timing - is it as more gold is mined?
3.3 What is the technique - how does the government acquire this new gold? It cannot pay for it with new currency (since it cannot issue any without more gold) so then does it mandate that mines deliver it at a discount or does it nationalize mines. Just trying to understand the mechanics
I'll get to the point 4 questions after. Thank you for answering and please just like before, let's stick to the topic and just to the arguments.

Wendy said...

I have to say that to my surprise and delight, I'm finding this debts rather interesting.

But if I don't stop typing on My phone and get some work done, I won't have a job. ;)

Wendy said...

Debate I mean

Paul said...

I guess it is really hard to see value when you struggle with morality ...

J said...

I agree that to make a new post would be the best way to be rid of the barrage of shouting, non-listening comments. A new post, please, FOFOA!

Even though I promised myself I wouldn't, I can't resist one more tilt at the windmill.

ART, please take a breath and spend just ONE HOUR trying, with an OPEN mind, to understand just what it is that is being said by those who think that Freegold will occur at some point. (One BIG hint - they're describing what they think will unfold, not what they necessarily think is ideal or most desirable or most equitable or preferable. Is that clear? What they think will happen.) If you do so, you just might derive something of benefit from the dozens of posts here, and at the very least you might be able to construct an argument that is based on an accurate understanding of their position. (Another hint - they have very similar views to you.)

As it is (I really hope you will listen to this and consider that I might be right) you're arguing against your inaccurate understanding of the Freegold thesis, and so you're wasting your time.

Here's an example.

You responded at Blondie like this:
BLONDIE SAYS: "Freegold gives an objective valuation to paper currency, as discovered by the market."

LOGIC SAYS: An objective valuation CANNOT be given without objective numbers and/or quantities being ascribed to the RELATIONSHIP of gold to paper currencies. This relationship can CHANGE and the valuation may fluctuate; but things can only change in relation to an objective reference point that is fixed in time and space.


You've completely missed the point that Blondie believes there needs to be, and (more importantly, in a way) believes there *will* be, an objective reference point called GOLD. That way you, and I, and everyone else, will have something (GOLD) against which we can measure the paper currencies and therefore we can AVOID being screwed over in the way we are right now. You and Blondie, here, are saying basically exactly the same thing!

Here's another of your responses that has misunderstood the original commenter:
MICHAEL H SAYS: "Who sets the value of a currency? It is the reciever [sic] of the currency, not the issuer."

COMMENT: OK, I'll tell the grocery store clerk that the one dollar bill I just handed her is really worth $100 in my opinion and that's how much groceries I'm going to buy now since that's what I value it at.


ART, who is the receiver of the currency in your example? That's right, it's the clerk, who would politely tell you that you are crazy and that it's really only worth a dollar. Which it is, incidentally.

Here's a much better example that illustrates that Michael H is right, and that I think you'd agree with him:
Post-Freegold, Mr Scumbag McFiat comes to me and says he wants to buy my car for a fistful of dollars - $1,000,000. Although I'm impressed by the number and denominations of the pieces of paper, and the pretty colors, I am no longer a sucker to the same extent I was, and I've heard that GOLD is the reference point against which currencies should be measured. So I check how many dollars are required to buy an ounce of gold, and I see that it's $1,000,000,000,000 (because the nasty people you and I both dislike have printed lots and lots of dollars and are trying to foist them onto people like me). Fortunately, because of the Reference Point Gold, I'm able to see that the offer Mr Scumbag McFiat is making me SUCKS, and so I tell him to take his one millionth of an ounce of gold and take a long hike.

No need for your 'perfect bank', just gold sitting around, no longered obscured and encumbered by paper gold and by generations of Western ignorance of its role.

Does that make ANY sense to you???
J The Newer

Anonymous said...

AQUILUS,

Here are the answers to your questions:

"3.1 What are the mechanics of issuing this currency? Is the rate at which it is issued the going market rate that day?"

ANSWER: The National Bank simply prints the currency and openly INFLATES the money supply by TRANSPARENTLY marking to market several times a day its gold reserves which back said currency. The market devalues or discounts - or does NEITHER - the currency according to the faith it places in the PEOPLE and their SYSTEM.

"3.2 What is the timing - is it as more gold is mined?"

ANSWER: No. Gold reserves may stay stagnant or even decline. This does not legislatively prohibit the National Bank from issuing additional currency. Real monetary INFLATION is not proscribed: it is ordered to be made TRANSPARENT by law.

"3.3 What is the technique - how does the government acquire this new gold? It cannot pay for it with new currency (since it cannot issue any without more gold) so then does it mandate that mines deliver it at a discount or does it nationalize mines."

ANSWER: As explained above, the government may attempt to issue currency to buy gold with whatever success the market place will mete out to such a dubious enterprise. It can also attempt to take over mines and attack the sanctity of private property with calamitous results.

Or it can reduce its size and basically only finance national defense (NOT imperialism fostering) expenditures; an efficient and JUST court system (CLEANSED of crony corrupt judges); and a real national health care service (CHEAPER and accessible to ALL as proven in Europe); ALL of which are to be funded by an equitable taxing apparatus.

ALL of the above are to be determined by open national debate and REFERENDUM. (If we can't as a people do this, it's the end of our republic anyway so take your gold and silver and run for the hills.)

Thus having reduced the need to acquire enormous additional amounts of gold to fill the reserves, the government can obtain extra gold through 1)collecting tariffs; 2)receiving foreign gold payments for trade surpluses; 3)payments in gold from patriotic citizens for government services; and, why not 4)even from the gold miners themselves who prefer to have some gold-backed paper cash handy for its convenience.

Anonymous said...

PAUL,

This is not about morality only; it's about the SURVIVAL of the species.

Paul said...

art

exactly my point
this has NOTHING to do with moralty

you don't understand freegold
not even close

Anonymous said...

J,

YOU SAID: "You've completely missed the point that Blondie believes there needs to be, and (more importantly, in a way) believes there *will* be, an objective reference point called GOLD. That way you, and I, and everyone else, will have something (GOLD) against which we can measure the paper currencies and therefore we can AVOID being screwed over in the way we are right now. You and Blondie, here, are saying basically exactly the same thing!"

MY ANSWER: No, absolutely not. I'm talking about FIAT CURRENCY and how THAT cannot be valued correctly unless there is an objective number and quantity put on how much that fiat currency is worth in terms of gold which reflects the VERIFIABLE and COLLECTIVE verdict of the human race. Otherwise, as RUI said, the bankers will establish the price of gold via FIAT JUST AS THEY ARE DOING IT NOW.

YOU SAID: "ART, who is the receiver of the currency in your example?That's right, it's the clerk, who would politely tell you that you are crazy and that it's really only worth a dollar. Which it is, incidentally."

MY ANSWER: No, it's not just the clerk. It's I AND eventually the clerk. I received it either from the banker or from someone who received it from someone who received it from the banker. The clerk stands right after me. EVEN IF WE ALLOWED FOR YOUR REASONING, can the clerk as the "receiver" set the price of the dollar bill? Of course he can't. It's the guy who controls the quote machine and that's THE BANKER. Let's get rid of the Man behind the curtain. HE is the real problem.

YOU SAID: "Post-Freegold, Mr Scumbag McFiat comes to me and says he wants to buy my car for a fistful of dollars - $1,000,000. Although I'm impressed by the number and denominations of the pieces of paper, and the pretty colors, I am no longer a sucker to the same extent I was, and I've heard that GOLD is the reference point against which currencies should be measured. So I check how many dollars are required to buy an ounce of gold, and I see that it's $1,000,000,000,000 (because the nasty people you and I both dislike have printed lots and lots of dollars and are trying to foist them onto people like me). Fortunately, because of the Reference Point Gold, I'm able to see that the offer Mr Scumbag McFiat is making me SUCKS, and so I tell him to take his one millionth of an ounce of gold and take a long hike."

MY ANSWER: You can do this now. That's why we have Freegold NOW. And since your 'golden reference point' is SET by the same scumbag bankers who are overissuing your currency, you're being HAD now as well. And as RUI said, this is NOT going to change under Freegold because Freegold doesn't change the system: Freegold IS the system.

THIS ABILITY TO SET THE PRICE OF GOLD CAN ONLY BE TAKEN AWAY IF FIAT IS RESCINDED AND GOLD BECOMES MONEY FOR THEY CAN'T PRINT GOLD (LIKE THEY CAN FIAT) AND BUY AND SELL IT TO MANIPULATE GOLD'S PRICE ITSELF simply because there would be NO REASON, no incentive and NO POSSIBILITY of doing so.

Wake up.

This debate is about FIAT and gold. NOT just about gold as a mystical metaphysical object of worship that cannot be spent in this world.

mwwinn said...

I'm a little late to the forum...it's only taken me several days to read the post and most of the comments.

Here's my question? After reading the Deflation / Inflation post a while ago, it affirmed my understanding of what happens in the case of hyper inflation. Though short lived, the impetus of every cash holder is to migrate as rapidly as possible to anything of value. In Weimar Germany, there are stories of women spending cash on bed pans just to get out of cash. When the shelves are empty - supply destruction - where will cash holders go, and what will they give for something that will maintain value. Thus in that scenario both Gold and Silver will be targets for ownership.

You may then say, well after the short lived, but catastrophic failure of currency, who will emerge from the ashes. There is no doubt gold will emerge from the ashes, but what about diamonds, how about silver or platinum. Why will they be dis-proportionately disfavored vs. Gold?

Wendy said...

Test

DP said...

Pass

Wendy said...

Wake up everyone we're back

:D

DP said...

The water is lovely

Anonymous said...

ALTERNATIVE TO FREEGOLD (Freegold is the monetary system that we have NOW!)

1)Gold and silver circulating as two independent forms of money WITHOUT fixed but MARKET-DETERMINED fluctuating ratios to each other, plus;

2)Currency redeemable in gold and silver at non-fixed fluctuating rates circulating alongside and competing with precious metal money.

3)A nonprofit national bank that issues gold-backed currency only but NOT debt- or credit-generated money.

4)A private for-profit banking sector that can issue loans for productive enterprise or sensible purchases or speculation purposes. NO reserve requirements and FRACTIONAL banking permitted. BUT the scrip equivalent of the proceeds of these loans are not legal tender AND must be repaid in gold-backed legal tender.

HOWEVER, NO FDIC, i.e., NO socialization of losses. The National Bank does not stand behind private scrip. You gamble, you may lose. The banker gambles, he can lose. The banker cheats, he can lose his head.

THE TWO MAIN ANTI-FREEGOLD ARGUMENTS:

1. If you "save" in gold and have to sell your gold every time you want to buy something, you will pay the bankers and the coin dealers fees and commissions each time PLUS they will buy your gold back for LESS and sell it to you for MORE when you want to convert your currency back into gold in order to "save" it. This is pure economic suicide! In the process, you will basically LOSE everything you have if you thus "save" your wealth in gold.

WHY Freegold when Freegold will ANNIHILATE your wealth, your money and your savings and deflate your wages to oblivion through inflation over time?

2. Fiat or paper currency causes economic apartheid and hyperinflation (and eventually social conflict, warfare and bloodshed). This is why:

WHO issues and controls fiat currency? NOT you and I. WHO pays basically NOTHING for fiat currency and creates it out of thin air to bid for all the goods and services available on the planet? NOT you and I. WHO has to work their asses off in order to obtain some of that worthless "medium of exchange" so that they can pay for food and shelter?

YOU and I.

FREEGOLDERS are saying that fiat currency is the BEST form of money = FREEGOLDERS are fomenting economic injustice and political turmoil.

WHY Freegold when the fundamental rationale for its existence is DESTROYED before your very own eyes?

radix46 said...

What the hell happened there?
Aren't there a load of posts missing?

It was probably some kind of evil CIA operation to prevent the release of Art's truths.

Michael H said...

FYI

http://goo.gl/DulGV

"We are very sorry that users are unable to publish to Blogger right now. We have rolled back the maintenance release from last night and as a result, posts and comments from all users made after 7:37 am PDT on May 11, 2011 have been removed. Again, we apologize that this happened and our engineers are working hard to return Blogger to normal and restore your posts and comments. We will post a report once this work is complete.

-The Blogger Team"

All of Blogspot was blacked out.

DP said...

@Art.

It would be useful I believe if you could clarify a few points about your new global monetary system, that I will today christen for the time being (until you've had a vote and come up with your preferred name we should use for it?) "Art, you're simply the best!".

1) OK, first I am interested to hear how exactly in your new global monetary system you propose to fix the prices of goods in the shops? Does every shop have a telescreen with the constantly-updated "prices"* of every good for sale, in both "oz Ag" and also "oz Au", of course in the base numeraire currency* as well? Or perhaps the goods are all labelled with their fixed currency price, as they are today, and there is just a telescreen in every shop with the Au and Ag exchange rate to the currency? Or do they call the bank along the street for a quote? If the produce is labelled with a static currency price, because the currency is basically unstable in terms of silver/gold (otherwise it wouldn't be floating), does this mean that there is no parity between silver/gold and other real goods? I'm just trying to get an idea of whether your silver/gold are to match any inflation, and if so whether the inflation rate for all other goods is different? Basically: what will shopkeepers use to determine what price they will charge? Maybe you just armwrestle for it at the checkout because it'll be quicker than trying to work it out?

2) What is this currency?* Is a modified Dollar? Or something new? If the latter, perhaps we will call them "Art, you're simply the bests" for the time being, until you've had a meeting and voted on a less catchy, but more practical name?

3) Gold-backed currency? OK, so it's 100% reserved physical gold, represented by circulating paper gold receipts. Yes? I guess the ole Dollar is indeed toast then. Bit of a pisser for all those people who had saved them up all this time, but c'est la vie. It'll be worth it for them in the end I assume, once we've all understood it in better detail. We have at this blog actually in the fairly recent past had a run through of how a 100% reserved currency but with continued lending of the store of value, is problematic. Somebody might be able to supply a reference(?), because my memory isn't so good for these things.

4) "Issue loans" in what? What will they loan? Gold and/or silver? The "Art you're simply the bests"? Also, please would you clarify "FRACTIONAL banking permitted" is what you intended to say, yes? Perhaps you can also clarify for us what happens when some borrower inevitably defaults on their loan? Especially in light of the matter of there being no "FDIC-like" entity to ensure the naive depositors of this world (which will be most, as it is now and it always is) don't end up losing their life savings in the process and coming to the steps of the CB with pitchforks and scythes in hand (again).

Thank you,

DP


* What is your system's base numeraire that everything is based on? You are saying silver and gold both "float" in some way, not in a fixed ratio, right? And the evil paper Dollar, clearly, is toast long ago by then, right? So do the metal prices both "float" in a sea of "Art, you're simply the bests"? Or do Arts (this is a pretty catchy name already actually, I think maybe I can see who is printed on the reverse too?) and gold float on a tether to the fixed platform of silver? Or, or, or... I dunno?

JC said...

Hi Art,

I agree that gold is a very good form of money.

But to require gold as honest money to be exchanged at every transaction removes the opportunity for me to build trust with the people I am transacting with. I enjoy receiving promises to pay from decent people and then seeing them later come through to their word. I like seeing humans organize their economic affairs for the greater good.

I understand that currently banks and government dishonor that promise to pay when I'm saving currency over time. I'm buying physical gold as a result of decreasing trust that I have with them. The greater the dishonor the faster I will transact from initial promise to final payment. I am always going to be transacting with reasonable people around me and doing so with whatever handshake, IOU or available currency is required in that moment.

You however, will have to pay immediately in gold. Thank you.

DP said...

So they took down the whole of Blogger, just to clean out some of Art's comments? Wow, someone must have thought they REALLY STANK, eh?

Paul said...

groundhog day ?

Biting Silverbug said...

I'd really, really like to see pure goldbugs refute these points posted

http://seekingalpha.com/article/269717-why-gold-s-worse-than-silver-but-still-worth-buying.

Please note that I'll still be buying gold - if only to trade into the "suckers" who are willing to part with silver to buy gold.

Gabriel said...

yes DP, i was hoping the disappearance of 140 posts were just a "clean up".
Sadly no. Art overwhelming presence in this thread is abusing.

DP said...

@Gabriel, I am amazed that Blogger, after being up all of about an hour or so by now perhaps, has already spammed my reply to Art. Yet it lets him through.

Maybe it's because I used a word with more than two syllables in it or something? I'll have to check...

Ah, yes, perhaps that is it. Cla-ri-fy. Dangit.

DP said...

Or, perhaps it's because I included a photocopy of one of this new currency notes, and they're trying to stop forgeries. We'll never know I guess. Well, not for a while then.

Wendy said...

We mostly slept through the down time here, but I bet you guys across the pond were sent out to clean up the garden when your significant other figured out that you weren't "working" so hard on the computer?

;)

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Art,

Much, if not most of what you say rings true to me.  As I posted early on in this thread, I have been reading 'Pieces of Eight'.  Until recently it was difficult to come by.  Anyway, your solution doesn't sound much different than that which has been proposed by others and reviewed by Vieira.  I look forward to engaging you to hear more of your thoughts.  I have yet to read anyone who has a more well defined, documented, reasoned, and argued case for monetary reform than Vieira and he came well before Another, FOA, or FOFOA.  It is telling that James Turk single-handedly revived this out of print masterpiece.  Art, I think you would enjoy it.

Paul said...

Art can't find value because he struggles with morality issues.
There HAS to be someone to blame !

freegold can't be bothered by morality. It is moral by itself.
equitable systems are by definition.

With all hhis good intentions, nobel Art will never see.
so sad

Anonymous said...

DP,

1) Is there a currency quote screen at Walmart now? We use the mediums of communication in place now to inform ourselves of what precious metals and currencies are doing EXCEPT that that the system's control and monitoring is relinquished to honest and patriotic public servants who have OUR best interest in mind, NOT the bankers' or Freegolders'.

Currencies are unstable TODAY but people don't "armwrestle at the checkout" to determine prices. YOU decide whether you want to pay WHATEVER price the SELLER decided to sell his wares at. You check out the store ONCE and if you don't like the way the merchandise is priced, you don't patronize the place again.

2) What difference does it make what call it? Let's call it the dollar if you ask me. Gold dollars for the gold backed one and silver dollars for the silver backed one. Why invent a new name? However it'd be best to refer to specie, I mean the precious metal coins themselves, in terms of units of weight this time; 1/10 toz piece, 1 toz piece, etc.

3)No, there is no legislatively-mandated 100% backing. There is only 100% requirement of TRANSPARENCY on the part of the issuing institution, the nonprofit National Bank. The National Bank is free to INFLATE the money supply BUT must constantly inform the public what its gold reserves are. Any three-year-old with a pocket calculator can divide total gold reserves by the total quantity of currency in existence (An exact and continuous reporting of this number is required by law) and determine what the present gold- or silver-backing rate is. At any time, you can go to the National bank and redeem your dollars in gold or silver based on the current quote.

4)Private banks can issue gold loans OR loans the proceeds of which are credited to the borrower's account in SCRIP - which is not legal tender currency and only a form of private credit, and which no one is obligated to accept as a legitimate form of payment. However the loan itself must be repaid in gold-backed legal tender currency. Since the bank and debtor are implicitly claiming that the creation of credit will result in the creation of tangible goods and services, then they must literally put their money where their mouth is.

PERSONALLY, I am not for borrowing nor lending, period. I abhor debt and support INVESTMENT of capital instead. If you believe in a project then put your money where your mouth is and INVEST in it with your capital OR your labor.

"Fractional banking permitted" means just that, with the caveat that the private scrip proceeds are accounted for in terms of gold-backed currency. Private bank reserve amounts are not set by government regulators but must be made transparent continuously. The banks must say every day how much they loaned out and what their own currency and gold reserves are.

In case of DEFAULT, the bank loses. Losses are not socialized. If the bank goes bankrupt, your deposits are paid in terms of whatever assets the bank has left. That could be as low as ZERO. However legal versions of "pitchforks and scythes" are encouraged and enabled. On the steps of the PRIVATE bank though.

*The base numeraires are gold and silver.

*Gold and silver don't float. Currencies' backing floats. One ounce of gold remains one ounce of gold.

Anonymous said...

GKNOWMX,

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

Anonymous said...

THIS IS WHAT DP SAID TO ME (it was deleted for some reason, possibly by FOFOA himself):


@Art.

It would be useful I believe if you could clarify a few points about your new global monetary system, that I will today christen for the time being (until you've had a vote and come up with your preferred name we should use for it?) "Art, you're simply the best!".

1) OK, first I am interested to hear how exactly in your new global monetary system you propose to fix the prices of goods in the shops? Does every shop have a telescreen with the constantly-updated "prices"* of every good for sale, in both "oz Ag" and also "oz Au", of course in the base numeraire currency* as well? Or perhaps the goods are all labelled with their fixed currency price, as they are today, and there is just a telescreen in every shop with the Au and Ag exchange rate to the currency? Or do they call the bank along the street for a quote? If the produce is labelled with a static currency price, because the currency is basically unstable in terms of silver/gold (otherwise it wouldn't be floating), does this mean that there is no parity between silver/gold and other real goods? I'm just trying to get an idea of whether your silver/gold are to match any inflation, and if so whether the inflation rate for all other goods is different? Basically: what will shopkeepers use to determine what price they will charge? Maybe you just armwrestle for it at the checkout because it'll be quicker than trying to work it out?

2) What is this currency?* Is a modified Dollar? Or something new? If the latter, perhaps we will call them "Art, you're simply the bests" for the time being, until you've had a meeting and voted on a less catchy, but more practical name?

3) Gold-backed currency? OK, so it's 100% reserved physical gold, represented by circulating paper gold receipts. Yes? I guess the ole Dollar is indeed toast then. Bit of a pisser for all those people who had saved them up all this time, but c'est la vie. It'll be worth it for them in the end I assume, once we've all understood it in better detail. We have at this blog actually in the fairly recent past had a run through of how a 100% reserved currency but with continued lending of the store of value, is problematic. Somebody might be able to supply a reference(?), because my memory isn't so good for these things.

4) "Issue loans" in what? What will they loan? Gold and/or silver? The "Art you're simply the bests"? Also, please would you clarify "FRACTIONAL banking permitted" is what you intended to say, yes? Perhaps you can also clarify for us what happens when some borrower inevitably defaults on their loan? Especially in light of the matter of there being no "FDIC-like" entity to ensure the naive depositors of this world (which will be most, as it is now and it always is) don't end up losing their life savings in the process and coming to the steps of the CB with pitchforks and scythes in hand (again).

Thank you,

DP


* What is your system's base numeraire that everything is based on? You are saying silver and gold both "float" in some way, not in a fixed ratio, right? And the evil paper Dollar, clearly, is toast long ago by then, right? So do the metal prices both "float" in a sea of "Art, you're simply the bests"? Or do Arts (this is a pretty catchy name already actually, I think maybe I can see who is printed on the reverse too?) and gold float on a tether to the fixed platform of silver? Or, or, or... I dunno?

Anonymous said...

DP,

1) Is there a currency quote screen at Walmart now? We use the mediums of communication in place now to inform ourselves of what precious metals and currencies are doing EXCEPT that the system's control and monitoring is relinquished to honest and patriotic public servants who have OUR best interest in mind, NOT the bankers' or Freegolders'.

Currencies are unstable TODAY but people don't "armwrestle at the checkout" to determine prices. YOU decide whether you want to pay WHATEVER price the SELLER decided to sell his wares at. You check out the store ONCE and if you don't like the way the merchandise is priced, you don't patronize the place again.

2) What difference does it make what call it? Let's call it the dollar if you ask me. Gold dollars for the gold backed one and silver dollars for the silver backed one. Why invent a new name? However it'd be best to refer to specie, I mean the precious metal coins themselves, in terms of units of weight this time; 1/10 toz piece, 1 toz piece, etc.

3)No, there is no legislatively-mandated 100% backing. There is only 100% requirement of TRANSPARENCY on the part of the issuing institution, the nonprofit National Bank. The National Bank is free to INFLATE the money supply BUT must constantly inform the public what its gold reserves are. Any three-year-old with a pocket calculator can divide total gold reserves by the total quantity of currency in existence (An exact and continuous reporting of this number is required by law) and determine what the present gold- or silver-backing rate is. At any time, you can go to the National bank and redeem your dollars in gold or silver based on the current quote.

4)Private banks can issue gold loans OR loans the proceeds of which are credited to the borrower's account in SCRIP - which is not legal tender currency and only a form of private credit, and which no one is obligated to accept as a legitimate form of payment. However the loan itself must be repaid in gold-backed legal tender currency. Since the bank and debtor are implicitly claiming that the creation of credit will result in the creation of tangible goods and services, then they must literally put their money where their mouth is.

PERSONALLY, I am not for borrowing nor lending, period. I abhor debt and support INVESTMENT of capital instead. If you believe in a project then put your money where your mouth is and INVEST in it with your capital OR your labor.

"Fractional banking permitted" means just that, with the caveat that the private scrip proceeds are accounted for in terms of gold-backed currency. Private bank reserve amounts are not set by government regulators but must be made transparent continuously. The banks must say every day how much they loaned out and what their own currency and gold reserves are.

In case of DEFAULT, the bank loses. Losses are not socialized. If the bank goes bankrupt, your deposits are paid in terms of whatever assets the bank has left. That could be as low as ZERO. However legal versions of "pitchforks and scythes" are encouraged and enabled. On the steps of the PRIVATE bank though.

*The base numeraires are gold and silver.

*Gold and silver don't float. Currencies' backing floats. One ounce of gold remains one ounce of gold.

Desperado said...

@Blondie,

I suspect that one reason you have more faith in the giants is that you live in New Zealand. I know very little about NZ, but it would not be hard for your politicians to be much less corrupt than those in the US.

Check out these bunkers for the for the TSA and the US government.

We know that the giants (ultra-rich) can hop into their private jets and fly to some ranch they own somewhere in the world when the HI starts. The problem is that these giants need someone to stay behind and watch over their "investments". These investment security guards for the giants are the TSA and homeland security. The giants have to convince these guys that they will be taken care of.

This is why they are building these giant bunkers.

Listen here Blondie: The giants have helicopters to use to fly off of the titanic to their tropical islands. Now we see that the crew members are preparing their own lifeboats, and yet you insist that if you manage to swim to shore after the titanic goes down that these guys are not going to make you their servant????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgXzPfAxjo

She came from Greece she had a thirst for knowledge,
she studied sculpture at Saint Martin's College,
that's where I,
caught her eye.
She told me that her Dad was loaded,
I said "In that case I'll have a rum and coca-cola."
She said "Fine."
and in thirty seconds time she said,

"I want to live like common people,
I want to do whatever common people do,
I want to sleep with common people,
I want to sleep with common people,
like you."

Well what else could I do -
I said "I'll see what I can do."
I took her to a supermarket,
I don't know why but I had to start it somewhere,
so it started there.
I said pretend you've got no money,
she just laughed and said,
"Oh you're so funny."
I said "yeah?
Well I can't see anyone else smiling in here.
Are you sure you want to live like common people,
you want to see whatever common people see,
you want to sleep with common people,
you want to sleep with common people,
like me."
But she didn't understand,
she just smiled and held my hand.
Rent a flat above a shop,
cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool,
pretend you never went to school.
But still you'll never get it right,
cos when you're laid in bed at night,
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you call your Dad he could stop it all.

You'll never live like common people,
you'll never do what common people do,
you'll never fail like common people,
you'll never watch your life slide out of view,
and dance and drink and screw,
because there's nothing else to do.

Sing along with the common people,
sing along and it might just get you through,
laugh along with the common people,
laugh along even though they're laughing at you,
and the stupid things that you do.
Because you think that poor is cool.

Anonymous said...

PAUL SAID: "freegold can't be bothered by morality. It is moral[ity] by itself."

No Sir, the medium is not the message no matter how many times you say it. This Nietzschean attitude of there is no right and wrong, only my will, and whatever I say is right, will not stand the light of truth.

Anonymous said...

DP,

1) Is there a currency quote screen at Walmart now? We use the mediums of communication in place now to inform ourselves of what precious metals and currencies are doing EXCEPT that that the system's control and monitoring is relinquished to honest and patriotic public servants who have OUR best interest in mind, NOT the bankers' or Freegolders'.

Currencies are unstable TODAY but people don't "armwrestle at the checkout" to determine prices. YOU decide whether you want to pay WHATEVER price the SELLER decided to sell his wares at. You check out the store ONCE and if you don't like the way the merchandise is priced, you don't patronize the place again.

2) What difference does it make what call it? Let's call it the dollar if you ask me. Gold dollars for the gold backed one and silver dollars for the silver backed one. Why invent a new name? However it'd be best to refer to specie, I mean the precious metal coins themselves, in terms of units of weight this time; 1/10 toz piece, 1 toz piece, etc.

3)No, there is no legislatively-mandated 100% backing. There is only 100% requirement of TRANSPARENCY on the part of the issuing institution, the nonprofit National Bank. The National Bank is free to INFLATE the money supply BUT must constantly inform the public what its gold reserves are. Any three-year-old with a pocket calculator can divide total gold reserves by the total quantity of currency in existence (An exact and continuous reporting of this number is required by law) and determine what the present gold- or silver-backing rate is. At any time, you can go to the National bank and redeem your dollars in gold or silver based on the current quote.

4)Private banks can issue gold loans OR loans the proceeds of which are credited to the borrower's account in SCRIP - which is not legal tender currency and only a form of private credit, and which no one is obligated to accept as a legitimate form of payment. However the loan itself must be repaid in gold-backed legal tender currency. Since the bank and debtor are implicitly claiming that the creation of credit will result in the creation of tangible goods and services, then they must literally put their money where their mouth is.

PERSONALLY, I am not for borrowing nor lending, period. I abhor debt and support INVESTMENT of capital instead. If you believe in a project then put your money where your mouth is and INVEST in it with your capital OR your labor.

"Fractional banking permitted" means just that, with the caveat that the private scrip proceeds are accounted for in terms of gold-backed currency. Private bank reserve amounts are not set by government regulators but must be made transparent continuously. The banks must say every day how much they loaned out and what their own currency and gold reserves are.

In case of DEFAULT, the bank loses. Losses are not socialized. If the bank goes bankrupt, your deposits are paid in terms of whatever assets the bank has left. That could be as low as ZERO. However legal versions of "pitchforks and scythes" are encouraged and enabled. On the steps of the PRIVATE bank though.

*The base numeraires are gold and silver.

*Gold and silver don't float. Currencies' backing floats. One ounce of gold remains one ounce of gold.

Anonymous said...

DP,

1) Is there a currency quote screen at Walmart now? We use the mediums of communication in place now to inform ourselves of what precious metals and currencies are doing EXCEPT that that the system's control and monitoring is relinquished to honest and patriotic public servants who have OUR best interest in mind, NOT the bankers' or Freegolders'.

Currencies are unstable TODAY but people don't "armwrestle at the checkout" to determine prices. YOU decide whether you want to pay WHATEVER price the SELLER decided to sell his wares at. You check out the store ONCE and if you don't like the way the merchandise is priced, you don't patronize the place again.

2) What difference does it make what call it? Let's call it the dollar if you ask me. Gold dollars for the gold backed one and silver dollars for the silver backed one. Why invent a new name? However it'd be best to refer to specie, I mean the precious metal coins themselves, in terms of units of weight this time; 1/10 toz piece, 1 toz piece, etc.

3)No, there is no legislatively-mandated 100% backing. There is only 100% requirement of TRANSPARENCY on the part of the issuing institution, the nonprofit National Bank. The National Bank is free to INFLATE the money supply BUT must constantly inform the public what its gold reserves are. Any three-year-old with a pocket calculator can divide total gold reserves by the total quantity of currency in existence (An exact and continuous reporting of this number is required by law) and determine what the present gold- or silver-backing rate is. At any time, you can go to the National bank and redeem your dollars in gold or silver based on the current quote.

4)Private banks can issue gold loans OR loans the proceeds of which are credited to the borrower's account in SCRIP - which is not legal tender currency and only a form of private credit, and which no one is obligated to accept as a legitimate form of payment. However the loan itself must be repaid in gold-backed legal tender currency. Since the bank and debtor are implicitly claiming that the creation of credit will result in the creation of tangible goods and services, then they must literally put their money where their mouth is.

PERSONALLY, I am not for borrowing nor lending, period. I abhor debt and support INVESTMENT of capital instead. If you believe in a project then put your money where your mouth is and INVEST in it with your capital OR your labor.

"Fractional banking permitted" means just that, with the caveat that the private scrip proceeds are accounted for in terms of gold-backed currency. Private bank reserve amounts are not set by government regulators but must be made transparent continuously. The banks must say every day how much they loaned out and what their own currency and gold reserves are.

In case of DEFAULT, the bank loses. Losses are not socialized. If the bank goes bankrupt, your deposits are paid in terms of whatever assets the bank has left. That could be as low as ZERO. However legal versions of "pitchforks and scythes" are encouraged and enabled. On the steps of the PRIVATE bank though.

*The base numeraires are gold and silver.

*Gold and silver don't float. Currencies' backing floats. One ounce of gold remains one ounce of gold.

Anonymous said...

DP,

1) Is there a currency quote screen at Walmart now? We use the mediums of communication in place now to inform ourselves of what precious metals and currencies are doing EXCEPT that that the system's control and monitoring is relinquished to honest and patriotic public servants who have OUR best interest in mind, NOT the bankers' or Freegolders'.

Currencies are unstable TODAY but people don't "armwrestle at the checkout" to determine prices. YOU decide whether you want to pay WHATEVER price the SELLER decided to sell his wares at. You check out the store ONCE and if you don't like the way the merchandise is priced, you don't patronize the place again.

2) What difference does it make what call it? Let's call it the dollar if you ask me. Gold dollars for the gold backed one and silver dollars for the silver backed one. Why invent a new name? However it'd be best to refer to specie, I mean the precious metal coins themselves, in terms of units of weight this time; 1/10 toz piece, 1 toz piece, etc.

3)No, there is no legislatively-mandated 100% backing. There is only 100% requirement of TRANSPARENCY on the part of the issuing institution, the nonprofit National Bank. The National Bank is free to INFLATE the money supply BUT must constantly inform the public what its gold reserves are. Any three-year-old with a pocket calculator can divide total gold reserves by the total quantity of currency in existence (An exact and continuous reporting of this number is required by law) and determine what the present gold- or silver-backing rate is. At any time, you can go to the National bank and redeem your dollars in gold or silver based on the current quote.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paul said...

art

when equitable, yes it will

Anonymous said...

DP,

1) Is there a currency quote screen at Walmart now? We use the mediums of communication in place now to inform ourselves of what precious metals and currencies are doing EXCEPT that that the system's control and monitoring is relinquished to honest and patriotic public servants who have OUR best interest in mind, NOT the bankers' or Freegolders'.


Currencies are unstable TODAY but people don't "armwrestle at the checkout" to determine prices. YOU decide whether you want to pay WHATEVER price the SELLER decided to sell his wares at. You check out the store ONCE and if you don't like the way the merchandise is priced, you don't patronize the place again.

2) What difference does it make what call it? Let's call it the dollar if you ask me. Gold dollars for the gold backed one and silver dollars for the silver backed one. Why invent a new name? However it'd be best to refer to specie, I mean the precious metal coins themselves, in terms of units of weight this time; 1/10 toz piece, 1 toz piece, etc.

3)No, there is no legislatively-mandated 100% backing. There is only 100% requirement of TRANSPARENCY on the part of the issuing institution, the nonprofit National Bank. The National Bank is free to INFLATE the money supply BUT must constantly inform the public what its gold reserves are. Any three-year-old with a pocket calculator can divide total gold reserves by the total quantity of currency in existence (An exact and continuous reporting of this number is required by law) and determine what the present gold- or silver-backing rate is. At any time, you can go to the National bank and redeem your dollars in gold or silver based on the current quote.

4)Private banks can issue gold loans OR loans the proceeds of which are credited to the borrower's account in SCRIP - which is not legal tender currency and only a form of private credit, and which no one is obligated to accept as a legitimate form of payment. However the loan itself must be repaid in gold-backed legal tender currency. Since the bank and debtor are implicitly claiming that the creation of credit will result in the creation of tangible goods and services, then they must literally put their money where their mouth is.

PERSONALLY, I am not for borrowing nor lending, period. I abhor debt and support INVESTMENT of capital instead. If you believe in a project then put your money where your mouth is and INVEST in it with your capital OR your labor.

"Fractional banking permitted" means just that, with the caveat that the private scrip proceeds are accounted for in terms of gold-backed currency. Private bank reserve amounts are not set by government regulators but must be made transparent continuously. The banks must say every day how much they loaned out and what their own currency and gold reserves are.

In case of DEFAULT, the bank loses. Losses are not socialized. If the bank goes bankrupt, your deposits are paid in terms of whatever assets the bank has left. That could be as low as ZERO. However legal versions of "pitchforks and scythes" are encouraged and enabled. On the steps of the PRIVATE bank though.

*The base numeraires are gold and silver.

*Gold and silver don't float. Currencies' backing floats. One ounce of gold remains one ounce of gold.

Anonymous said...

Hi JC,

YOU SAID, " I enjoy receiving promises to pay from decent people and then seeing them later come through to their word."

I agree with you. The system I described will enable us to do exactly that. It is the best monetary compromise between Faith in one's fellow men and Trust but VERIFY.

Anonymous said...

A brilliant piece, Costata, thank you!
I've 'felt' a growig kinship with Freegold over the last couple years, yet hadn't been able to put my finger on it or understand it until I happened upon FOFOA and Another's (Thoughts) relatively recently. It truly was like discovering a long lost brother, separated at birth. :)

In the early 2000's I accumulated an enormous inventory of Sterling jewelry in Bangkok for my online business which flourished until the recession/depression deepened. I had been thinking of shutting down the business and 'sitting' on all that silver for future prosperity. Until, I read FOFOA's RPG article supplemented with very insightful comments by the veterans here. This moved me to act in exchanging almost all of my 'quiet' inventory - literally several hundreds of ounces, including a significant number of bars and coins, when silver approached $40 and into the mid-$40's - for gold.

Though your article comes after my actions, it adds to and solidifies my confidence that I did the right thing - I'm not one for a game of hot potato, if you know what I mean...
Thank you, and thank you host(FOFOA), again.
-David

Rui said...

@Paul

If you meant to say that FreeGold is just an immoral encore of bankers' perennial "print to loot" scam then you were simply proving Art's exact point.

All the talking points about FG such as "harmony", "meritocracy" and what not are sale pitch at best if not hollow promises.

Robert LeRoy Parker said...

I think James Turk has been reading Fofoa. From king world news, he says

“What actually happens and what is quite clear is that there is usually some kind of event, it’s a tipping point.  And the event causes people’s confidence in the currency pretty much to evaporate, and once that event occurs you’ve basically got six months before the currency is history.” 

Anonymous said...

DESPERADO,

Nice video.

Here's a video DEDICATED to FREEGOLDERS:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK6drtuGric


ENJOY and be yourselves again!

Finn said...

It sounds like you drew your conclusion and then built all the facts around it.

A lengthy treatise does not make for an "elegant" piece. The assumptions throughout are generous.

Looking back through some of the comments I find myself agreeing with Stefan. You sound like the antithesis of the $1,000 silver bulls (i believe it will get there someday).

Your conclusion regarding silver and the SLA (basically silver), with all due respect is simply baseless. You state "If the SLA gets carried away with delusions of grandeur and the silver advocates start to achieve their aims, then the governments and Giants who hold this gold will respond. You can understand that, can’t you?"

How in the world can you know that? Why would they see silver as a danger. How in the world could silver make gold worthless? They both have inherit value? Seriously?

And you speak of delusions of grandeur....the grandeur is your writing of this piece. Might I remind you sir that until gold is $50,000 you are wrong and sound like a zealot. Silver (pre margin hike, and by the way, why was that necessary?) had been SMASHING gold.

I don't doubt the validity of the FOFOA theory and I consider it carefully. Upon reading much of the info I immediately converted some silver into gold as I believed it prudent. The theory is sound but it has not become practice and there are NO guarantees of anything at this point.

All the assumptions about what people would or would not do and the crystal ball attitude about the future of gold can harm one's integrity. Tread carefully my friend.

Gary the Good said...

@Finn
You state the opinion that I most agree with at this point.
I see a complete movement from currency could take decades to take solid foothold with the masses. I just can't envision it happening overnight. We would have plenty of time to discuss it further as ut transpires (yes, it is transpiring - albeit slowly).
I am henging with both Gold and Silver and don't see one eclisping the other. I wish I had bought more Silver than Gold in the past couple of years though.
Best,
Gary

@mortymer001 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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