Sunday, December 11, 2011

Unambiguous Wealth 2 – The MF Global Chronicles

Jon Corzine the former CEO of MF Global with his preferred candidate for President

Sometimes I write post-length comments that would be more useful as actual posts. Here's one…

Hello Edwardo,

Thank you for the ZH link. I suppose I need to be more specific when I refer to "the ZH/GATA CB thesis." First let me state that Zero Hedge and GATA both provide a great service and they both do fantastic work, ZH comments section notwithstanding. It is their underlying thesis about fiat currencies and central banks in general that I have a problem with. And this is not a problem with only ZH and GATA, it is a problem with the entire hard money camp.

Their foundational thesis is that fiat currencies and the CBs that manage them are the most fundamental flaw in today's system from which all other problems flow. This directly conflicts with my thesis that using the same medium in both the primary and secondary monetary roles is the fundamental flaw from which all other problems flow. My thesis applies to both hard and easy money systems. Their thesis points to the CBs as the bad guys. My thesis holds up a mirror and says, "We have met the enemy, and it is us."

One of the biggest struggles I observe in newish visitors to my blog is that they instinctively try to reconcile everything they learned from the hard money camp—ZH and GATA being two bright stars there—with what they read here. Their effort inevitably leads to contradictions that cannot be resolved. And because ZH, GATA and the rest of the hard money camp is so much more ubiquitous than my little blog, they win by default in minds that are unable to think for themselves.

Here are a couple of the irreconcilable concepts found on this blog that noobs must either reject or ignore in order to hang on to their ZH/GATA CB thesis.

1. Remember when Aristotle wrote this? "In working on this project, I was personally shocked when I discovered that we absolutely NEEDED paper currency in order to set Gold free. In the perfect world you lapse into in your comments, everything you say is well and good. We don't live in that world, however. My biggest challenge in piecing together my proffered solution was to accept what this real world had to offer and avoid foisting my own preferences onto the world like a square peg in a round hole."

Have you ever seen anyone in the hard money camp write anything like this? Or can you imagine them ever doing so? Yet this is one of the core fundamentals necessary to understanding Freegold.

2. And FOA wrote this: "Several years ago, many gold bugs and gold advocates missed the path as the trail turned." "Yes, the war now is between the Euro and the dollar! The Washington Agreement [a Central Bank agreement] placed gold 'on the road to high prices'." "The war between gold and the dollar has been over for a while now… Leaving gold bugs with a lot of questions that ask why this: both systems will strive for a higher currency price for gold; one doing it because they have to; the other doing it because they want to! The casualty on this battlefield will be the world gold market as we know it. A market caught between how Western perception thinks gold's price should be "discovered" and at what price level trading in physical gold craters the entire paper structure… This paper gold market will be cashed out at prices far below real bullion trading so as to inflate further the books of the Bullion Banks,,,,,, not destroy them. At least this is how the US side will proceed."

Again, have you ever seen anyone at GATA or ZH write anything like this? Or can you imagine them ever doing so? This view is so completely antithetical to their most fundamental thesis. And whenever we see the price of the paper gold market fall under the force of short-term manipulation, their instinctive explanation is that the CBs are puking up physical to suppress the price of gold.

This particular ZH article you linked, Edwardo, is superb with regard to this blog, and especially to the topic of this post, Unambiguous Wealth. Tyler notes:

"…there should never be any debate over who owns a given physical asset, as replicated ownership (note - not liens) effectively means someone stole the gold (or there was counterfeiting involved) and was never caught... until MF Global finally expired of course."

This is, of course, the problem with holding your "wealth" in the system. This is an extreme example, where the wealth being held in the system was presumed to be unambiguous—and physical—and yet the system itself imputed ambiguity onto the ownership of that asset, which was only discovered once someone went bankrupt. Possession is the timeless attribute of wealth because true possession is unequivocal. But the system apparently equivocates its own illusory version of possession when it comes to bankruptcy. Therefore nothing held within the ($IMFS) system can be unconditionally qualified as "wealth" under FOA's definition.

This guy, Jason Fane of Ithaca, New York, simply wants to get his gold out of the bank vault and into a non-bank vault at Brinks. Remember, this is one of GBI's big selling points. Your gold bars and coins are stored in non-bank vaults that have no reason or even ability to use them for other purposes like rehypothecation. But even better than that, with gold, you can actually take true possession of your wealth yourself! A million dollars in gold can easily fit into a small box. If that sounds dangerous or risky to you, just take a look at what's happening inside the system today! HSBC's hands are tied until a judge rules on whether Jason can move his own gold that he thought he already "possessed."

This MF Global bankruptcy is like a shockwave spreading out over the whole marketplace. It's like an EMP that could fry the matrix in a flash, once people begin to understand its implications. It's already had far-reaching consequences.

One group that has so far been disproportionately affected is the non-bank physical gold dealer network. Many large and small, retail and wholesale gold dealers used the COMEX paper market to hedge their physical business. Say someone walked in and sold a dealer a thousand ounces of krugerrands. That dealer would immediately go to his MF Global online account and short ten COMEX futures contracts worth 100 ounces each.

So these dealers often have large cash balances sitting at the ready so that they can earn the spread from any customer without taking the price risk. It was not their contracts or COMEX positions that disappeared when MF Global went bankrupt, it was their large cash balances. Active positions were rolled over to other clearing houses, but the cash disappeared.

I have heard about one large gold dealer that had $5M in cash at MF Global. Many smaller dealers had hundreds of thousands sitting there. And they were all with MF Global for one reason and one reason only, Lind-Waldock. "Lind-Waldock was the Charles Schwab of commodity brokers" according to one of my readers who trades commodities. It was the longest-standing discount commodity broker in the world. It had been around for more than 40 years and many big names used Lind-Waldock. It was bought by MF Global's parent company back in 2005, but up until a few months ago, the commodity trading website still said Lind-Waldock at the top.

So for whatever reasons, word of mouth, residual credibility or whatever, the physical bullion dealer network was disproportionately with MF Global when it filed for bankruptcy. And ever since this went down on October 31, it has had an impact on the physical market in the United States. The liquidity these dealers used to hedge their business is not available right now.

So imagine that you walked into a dealer to buy or sell 50 gold eagles today. When he makes that deal with you, he is now taking on position risk. So he's going to have to pay you less for your eagles—or charge you more if you're buying—in order to lower his risk. Previously he would have hedged that risk on his MF Global account. So if you've noticed that the buy-sell spread on physical has gotten wider over the past month, that's why.

(Turd Ferguson reports today that: "Sources tell me this is already happening as bulk physical gold is currently being sold and delivered at $1950/ounce." h/t burningfiat)

And now that you've got that picture in your mind, imagine the dealers' conundrum with intraday $200-$300 price swings, or if the market mechanism for paper gold price discovery breaks down entirely. Some of these dealers have already said they will never go back to paper hedging, period, even if they get their money back! Paper gold is nearly finished.

I'd like to mention now that Jim Sinclair has been absolutely ON FIRE talking about the implications and the shockwave of consequences emanating from the MF Global bankruptcy. In his latest great interview he says that by putting the OTC derivative positions of a bankrupt clearing house ahead of its client's deposits, this case will ultimately break the very market mechanism for price discovery. He says the system ($IMFS) is already broken, but whereas Lehman Bros. was the "Lehman event" for Main Street, MF Global is the "Lehman event" for the insiders. When your clearing house becomes a questionable counterparty, it's over.

He says the only reason it's still working at all (the clearing system necessary for settlement and price discovery) is "rank ignorance" on the part of the participants as to the implications of this MF Global bankruptcy case. And he's not just talking about gold and commodity trading. He says that virtually any money held anywhere within the system right now exists only insofar as the insiders have yet to figure out the dire implications of MF Global. This is a crisis of confidence. Remember where I said demand/velocity can turn on a dime?

Jim says there's no way to know if the clearing house being used by your broker or money manager is using your funds as collateral for gambles on its own behalf. And the way the law is written, the bank that is lending money to your clearing house apparently has the primary claim to your funds, ahead of you, in bankruptcy.

Most people, when they sign up with a money manager, don't read all the small print. And so they don't know about these clauses that are in virtually all of these types of agreements, or if they do read them they either don't understand them or they simply live with them. Here is the clause from the MF Global agreement:

"7. Consent To Loan Or Pledge

You hereby grant us the right, in accordance with Applicable Law, to borrow, pledge, repledge, transfer, hypothecate, rehypothecate, loan, or invest any of the Collateral, including, without limitation, utilizing the Collateral to purchase or sell securities pursuant to repurchase agreements [repos] or reverse repurchase agreements with any party, in each case without notice to you, and we shall have no obligation to retain a like amount of similar Collateral in our possession and control."


The term hypothecate comes from your creditor's "hypothetical control" over your asset until you pay your debt. To "rehypothecate" an asset, your creditor is giving "hypothetical control" of your asset to a third party, another creditor, in exchange for what is essentially a gambling loan to himself. This is technically legal, and if your broker or clearing house is international, it may be rehypothecating your entire account, even if you haven't borrowed a dime.

As I said, most people don't even know about this. But the big hedge funds have teams of lawyers that go through these contracts and strike out such clauses before they ever fund an account. And those that did got their money back right away. This happened with Lehman Brothers as well. And with Lehman, some hedge funds that failed to strike out these clauses are still fighting to get back some of their money.

As sick as this all sounds, it's not only technically legal, it's rampant! Here is what Reuters found as to the proliferation of what they termed "hyper-hypothecation"…

"Engaging in hyper-hypothecation have been Goldman Sachs ($28.17 billion re-hypothecated in 2011), Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (re-pledged $72 billion in client assets), Royal Bank of Canada (re-pledged $53.8 billion of $126.7 billion available for re-pledging), Oppenheimer Holdings ($15.3 million), Credit Suisse (CHF 332 billion), Knight Capital Group ($1.17 billion),Interactive Brokers ($14.5 billion), Wells Fargo ($19.6 billion), JP Morgan($546.2 billion) and Morgan Stanley ($410 billion).

Nor is lending confined to between banks. Intra-bank re-hypothecation is also possible as evidenced by filings from Wells Fargo. According to disclosures from Wachovia Preferred Funding Corp, its parent, Wells Fargo, acts as collateral custodian and has the right to re-hypothecate and use around $170 million of assets posted as collateral."


Here's a question. Say you have your money with Conservative Wealth Management in Los Angeles who is churning you a nice, conservative 3% a year on your $200,000 retirement account. Where did "Conservative" put your money to get that return? And whoever Conservative put it with, where did they put it? Where is your money right now? How many different entities are using your assets as collateral to churn themselves a high-risk return? And does anyone else have "hypothetical control" over your money in the event one of the counterparties in the chain goes bankrupt? Jim says you'd have to be a "past master of actuarial accounting" to know.

It is very difficult for shrimps to think like Giants. Usually we just follow in their footsteps. But there's something very important that you really REALLY need to understand—right now—about people with really big money. And that is that they are much quicker to panic than we are. Big money is nervous money. Always. They live much closer to the panic end of the panic-calm spectrum. While we shrimps sleep soundly, big money wakes up in the middle of the night with cold sweats.

We talk about making a return on our money. But the truly wealthy are first and foremost concerned with preserving their capital. Earning a return is a secondary concern. Big money stays invested mainly because they are not losing money. How many fund managers beat the index in the long term? Nary a one. Yet their clients stay "invested" as long as (at least) they aren't losing money.

MF Global and rehypothecation will move these people ever closer to the panic button. It merely requires time for the implications to sink in. Apparently they are not invested in the location they think they are. Their wealth is not parked where they think it is parked. Think of it like a valet. What if you took your claim ticket and tried to fetch the car yourself? What if you found an empty space where your Bentley was supposed to be parked?

I was emailing with a friend yesterday about this whole MF Global thing, and he had a great analogy for this. Compare these big money folks to the average guy who rides the bus. You miss a bus, so what? It's inconvenient but another bus will come. It takes a long time to sink in that another bus isn't coming. It's not until there is such a big crowd waiting at the bus stop for the next bus that people start thinking "even if a bus comes there are too many people to fit on one bus." In that mindset the surest way to cause a riot is to send one bus i.e., not enough buses. You have to fight to get to the front of the queue. This is a bank run mentality.

And this is a key difference between the average guy and the big money. Big money isn't used to being kept waiting. Big money owns the "bus company". They know the buses aren't going to run before the little guy. They panic early. There was an electronic bank run around the time of the Lehman collapse. That was one of the reasons why governments around the world stepped in with fresh deposit guarantees. But there were no lines outside the banks to alert the average guy to what the Giants were up to.

Right now gold is $1,712 per ounce. If you have $200,000 in ambiguous claims floating through system-space, your account is right now worth 116 one-ounce gold coins of unambiguous wealth. But here's the thing. You are never going to beat the big money to that panic button. There are enough gold coins on the market right now that you could get your 116 of them without affecting the price. But if you're waiting for the first signs of panic, you're not going to get anywhere near 116. You'll be lucky to get six or seven.

There's only one way to beat the Giants to the gold, and that is to run in front of them. Jim ended his interview by saying, "Take care of yourselves, because nobody else is gonna do it for you. Have what you own, otherwise you don't own it." What a great interview!

But, unfortunately, Jim also subscribes to the hard money camp CB/fiat thesis. And with this view, he comes across as colorblind to the difference between the ECB and the Fed/BOE, the difference between the euro and the dollar, the difference between a gold standard and Freegold, and the future system that is already unfolding. The problem with his view is that, while it does deliver solid individual advice, it leads to poor macro conclusions and predictions.

For example, Jim and I both agree that the $IMFS is kicking the can down a dead end road. The system is basically dead already, and the MF Global bankruptcy case may very well turn out to be the last nail in the confidence coffin. But he concludes that this obviously means a return to a commodity currency based on historically similar occurrences.

Like others in the hard money camp, he envisions this reversion to a commodity base being crafted by some of the same people running the failed current system through a revision of the unit of account function at the super-sovereign level. Jim says, "When things become extraordinarily difficult, you'll find that any attachment to gold, even if it's via a virtual reserve currency, and a global Western-world M3 for valuation, it will be considered to be a solution and probably will be a road out."

"Virtual reserve currency" means something—like the SDR—that's primarily a unit of account for the purpose of providing monetary stability. But with the primary and secondary media of exchange becoming separate but symbiotic counterparts, stability will be automatically achieved, and a "commodity-based" super-sovereign unit of account comparing fiat M3 with a centrally managed gold price will be completely superfluous and unnecessary (i.e., as unused as the SDR).

Eric King: "So that's where we're headed basically? The destruction of our current system?"

Jim Sinclair: "You can fix a market, but wait 'til you see what you have to do to fix a whole system."

Eric King: "One final question, Jim. We've talked about gold being revalued. When that day comes, and there is a gold-backed currency once again, will the world be able to turn itself around here?"


This is two people discussing a possible solution to a serious problem at the 11th hour. What they don't understand is that this very scenario—$IMFS collapse—was faced 32 years ago and a solution was crafted at the highest levels. That solution took 20 years to launch (at great cost, mind you) and today it stands at the ready. If you read too much ZH and thereby think the European debt crisis changes things in some way, guess again. The European debt crisis is a symptom of the dying $IMFS, not the Eurosystem. In every way this is true.

Jim talks about the sociopathic bond vigilantes (a relic of the $IMFS) who can take entire countries down through the debt markets. He talks about them waging WWIII in the bond markets every day. If you want stability, insulated from these sociopathic traders, you don't want some slipshod unit of account basket solution patched together by the IMF at the 11th hour. You're more likely to fall back on the long-line plan that took two decades to implement and another decade to season.

The Achilles' heel of the $IMFS is that debt is the system's official store of value and foreign exchange reserve. And bearing this flaw, savers, currencies, banks, governments and even entire countries are all vulnerable to the inevitable failure of the debt.

The problem with debt performing these functions is that debt is a derivative of the currency itself. Currency moves opposite the flow of real goods and services. And with a derivative of the currency acting as the only counterbalance to uneven trade, there emerges the exact opposite of a natural adjustment mechanism for correcting trade imbalances.

With debt as the store of value and official reserve asset, the party producing more real goods has no way to record his net production (savings) other than lending that excess currency back to the consuming party, encouraging him to consume more, and recording the new debt. A true adjustment mechanism makes the balance swing back and forth. But the debt system requires an infinite debtor. So the system is designed to fail. The debt backing the system is designed to fail. And as the official store of value and reserve asset, the savers, currencies, banks, governments and even entire countries are destined to fail in the end… under the $IMFS.

Enter the euro. According to the ECB website, the road to the euro began in 1962, shortly after the launch of the London Gold Pool which aimed to keep gold cheap in support of the $IMFS. The French were the first to pull out of the Gold Pool and also the first to mark their gold reserves to market in 1975. By 1997 even the Germans were marking their gold reserves to market in anticipation of the euro launch date.

Today the Eurosystem still operates under the same $IMFS, yet it declares proudly on line 1 of its weekly statements that gold is its primary currency reserve, marked to market every quarter. And anyone can download the data from its website and plug it into a spreadsheet. If you chart it, it looks like this:


(Please see my Euro Gold post for more.)

The point is, there's a turn-key problem-solving system waiting in the wings. So whenever you hear anyone in the hard money camp or the Anglo-American press talking about something that sounds like the SDR with "gold backing" (watch out for that word "backing") don't buy it for a second. They simply don't have the full picture and, therefore, don't know what they're talking about when it comes to macro solutions. But even so, they're still right when they recommend that you get your butt out of that reclining black office chair and take personal responsibility for your wealth. Hear hear Jim:

"Take care of yourselves, because nobody else is gonna do it for you. Have what you own, otherwise you don't own it."
_________________________________________________________

**Christmas Fundraiser**

Old FOFOA needs your help again. It's been 10 months since my last fundraiser, and I know there are a lot of new readers out there. Yeah, I did drop a hint or two back in August, but to tell the truth, that didn't turn out to be much of a fundraiser (perhaps because of that Scary Correction). There are a few of you who have been very regular and generous in your support! You know who you are, so THANK YOU THANK YOU!! But for the rest of you, I could really use your support right now.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I am living the austere dream! I have no debt, low expenses and a modest stack of gold coins. And I'm able to be here writing this blog thanks to your generous support. For the past couple of years, donations alone have been covering my expenses. But lately they have only been covering a portion of my expenses, and now I've run down my cash reserves to the point that I need to do something, either seek an income or dishoard some of my savings prematurely.

With 2012 right around the corner, we've got a year of heavy events in front of us; a Presidential election, the euro debt crisis, helicopter drops, etc… So if you appreciate this blog and having me here to do what I do, and if you are one of the thousands of readers that checks in every day, please consider making a donation, a contribution toward keeping this going into 2012.

Thank you!

UPDATE: Thank you to the 172!! of you who donated so far! Bless you, and Merry Christmas!

Sincerely,
FOFOA

To all savers, the $IMFS asked me to pass along this (love letter?) message…


_________________________________________________________

UPDATE:

New GLD Puke Alert from Lance Lewis


Lance: "As long-time readers know, a one-day decline of over 1 percent in GLD’s holdings is what I call my “GLD Puke Indicator,” and it flashed another “buy signal” again today, indicating that we are within + or – a day or two of an important low in the gold price.

As you can see from the chart, this indicator is nearly foolproof when it comes to marking important lows in the gold price. Now, recall that we can sometimes see “clusters” of these signals around major lows in gold rather than just a single signal, but we haven’t seen such a cluster since back in 2008 during that epic panic.

There has also been one false signal back in early December of 2009, which came just a few days off a peak, but there has never been a false signal that has occurred months after a gold price peak has been put in like this one is and definitely not with MarketVane’s bullish consensus below 75 (and especially not at 58 like it is now).

In fact, the closest analogy we have to the current low in the gold price was the 60% MarketVane reading back on July 20, 2010, which came 8 days before the July 28, 2010 “GLD puke indicator” signal, during which period the HGNSI hung around 9%, vs. the current 0.3%.

You will recall that this low in gold that was marked by the intersection of these indicators in July of 2010 just below $1200 was also THE low for the gold price ahead of the Fed announcing the launch of QE2 in November of 2010.

Will history repeat with this week’s low ahead of QE3’s launch in early 2012? Perhaps it won’t repeat exactly, but I suspect it will most certainly rhyme."

315 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 315 of 315
Matt said...

It is true JR, that many of the things you attack my position for a inherent in your own position.

You trust the ECB to remain independent yet cannot see another body acheiving the same.

You reference the superorganism as an example of freegold balancing trade and allowing collective intelligence to work unfettered and yet you don't grasp that my position is the same.

You speak of debt free money as centrally planned and doomed and yet you don't see that credit money is privately centrally planned and just as doomed!

You have an 'Austrian' bias for a form of freemarket collective intelligence without realising that many of the things you rail could just as easily be derived from the collective intelligence.

Structured organisation can also be outcome of the antfarm. If positivemoney rallied the voters together and had their system passed into law - would that be a failing of the collective intelligence?? Of course not!!

Anonymous said...

@JR

The excerpt from the positive money site sounds a lot like Freedom's Vision found on Nathan Martin's blog. Some of the specifics:

A. The Federal Reserve System must be either reconfigured or abolished. The goal is to get rid of the national debt and to spend non debt-backed money into existence instead of paying private banks interest on deficits that they labor to expand.

i. Twelve Federal Reserve Banks functions replaced by State Banks using the model of North Dakota.

ii. The free markets set interest rates - they would be completely market driven. The government could lend money under certain conditions to the private or state banks at a fixed interest rate less than the rate set by the market (for example, market rate minus 2%).

iii. As credit dollars are removed, they are replaced with new Treasury notes. This replacement needs to occur at approximately the same rate that leverage is removed from the system via the removal of debt, derivatives, and the re-institution of limits on fractional ability. There must be a final transition date where treasury debt no longer exists. What will then be left is a mix of "REAL" non-credit backed money and credit dollars from the banking system which are limited. This transition will eliminate the current Federal Debt. However, it does not eliminate State, lower governmental, corporate, or personal debt and thus some "credit dollars" will remain, the ratio of "real" to "credit" dollars, however, will be substantially reduced. Paying off Treasury debt means that both foreign and domestic holders of Treasury bonds and notes are paid back with dollars. They then are free to use their dollars as they wish.

B. We must create an Independent Panel (IP) responsible for controlling the QUANTITY of money. Congress would apportion where the money goes, but they would agree that the Independent Panel (IP) would control the QUANTITY (not the same as a "balanced budget," the IP would provide a spending target range that Congress would agree to stay within). This IP could be located within what we now call the Fed, but the internal structure would be much different in that the panel would consist of seven panel members, one of which would act as Panel Director (PD). There would also not be the current 12 reserve banks (their functions would move to State Banks). This panel must be completely independent and without influence from all other agencies. The composition of this panel is not critical as they have a single mission, a single tool, and can easily be held accountable for meeting or not meeting their goals.

1. The IP would have a single mandate in regard to quantity; that is to adjust the money supply to produce ZERO PRICE INFLATION - the supply of money would adjust up or down to meet this mandate. This would allow the economy to expand with REAL economic growth, population growth or to absorb shocks. It would also present a MANDATORY mechanism to remove excess money and to prevent PRICE inflation - stable prices are the goal, the center of the operating envelope. The IP would receive their data from the IDP (Independent Data Panel), but would remain isolated from them.

Anonymous said...

I seriously considered the feasibility of something like Freedom's Vision until I realized the fate of the money would still lie within the hands of an "anointed" few "ants" who are tasked with making very important decisions regarding supply.

The collective IQ of all us "ants", making individual decisions and taking independent action, far exceeds the IQ of a collection of our smartest ants or a collection of ants who are insulated from special interests of the colony.

Its an interesting idea that could likely work as well as our current system, therefore the allure to those who lament the crushing debt the world has accumulated. But, we aren't looking for something that works as well. We are looking for something that works better and can be sustained indefinitely.

In my mind this means taking control out of the individual's hands and then handing it over to the collective, an indifferent and highly intelligent organism that will make the correct analysis every single time. Of course the challenge then is to not interfere.

Jeff said...

Kyle Bass thinks the euro will fail because it 'can't devalue'. Freegold says it can devalue, against gold.

FOFOA: The euro might quickly devalue against the physical plane during the transition when the $IMFS goes to relieve some of the past debt burden, with gold going up as an asset on the balance sheet to provide an offset for the saver class. not a running hyperinflation, but a devaluation.

A quick devaluation (against the physical plane) in both the euro and the dollar would have very different outcomes for the two currencies.

Remember, its not about printing per se, its about market demand for the currency, the printing is a response to the loss of value. So what happens when both the dollar and the euro devalue? **Very different outcomes for the two currencies.**

Here is an important question: Is it theoretically possible for a fiat currency to devalue, or more precisely, to hyper-depreciate against only one single asset without affecting the price of a can of peas?

The US dollar MUST devalue (one way or another) against the entire physical world. Think about this. The euro, on the other hand, might just hyper-depreciate against only one specific asset.

The hyperinflation of the dollar is already a done deal. It has been since the 90's at least. Massive quantities of perceived dollars already exist stored in debt held globally and inside the US. Europe knows this. They have known this was inevitable since at least the mid-90's when they changed plans and went with higher gold reserves for the new ECB. They have always been willing to wait for it to happen naturally, unless the EU itself faces an existential threat from debt brought on by the $IMFS. And in this case, I believe their only option is a targeted hyper-depreciation of the euro.

By "targeted", I mean that the euro devaluation would be targeted to go only into gold. Gold can absorb a devaluation if you do it carefully, and in turn devalue the debt without causing inflationary havoc.

Of course this would cause the hyper-depreciation of the dollar as well. Only the dollar's collapse would be against all of creation, not just one asset."

Matt said...

Hey Matrix - "I seriously considered the feasibility of something like Freedom's Vision until I realized the fate of the money would still lie within the hands of an "anointed" few "ants" who are tasked with making very important decisions regarding supply. "

It appears that our lines in the sand cross but we don't seem to realise it! Do we really think that money is in the hands of the collective now? are euros? No of course not! do the many ants make the interest rate decisision in europe? do the many decide the reserve ratios and underlying BASEL requirements? do they decide the size of the ECB's balance sheet or its open market operations? no of course not! the system is already in the hands of the few - my argument is to remove the private profit incentive from money issuance not hand it over to a King to decide our fate! Will the system be safer? no, but nor will it be more risky if structured right and yet it has the chance to be far more equitable!

The protection from the few in the euro area is the mark to market gold and yet I PROFFER NOTHING DIFFERENT!!!

Motley Fool said...

Matt

I notice you are getting excited/frustrated.

I forgot that I did want to comment that I am of the opinion that FreeGold would resolve imbalances both at macro and micro level.

I think that gold as reference point and savings medium is enough to put ants on equal footing with giants, and that this will be sufficient to alter their behaviour.

TF

Matt said...

Hey MF - cheers, i am getting both excited and frustrated in equal measure!

Perhaps you are right and I welcome the chance for us all to find out!

*must back away from the computer*

Dr. Octagon said...

Costata – thank you for your update. I have read some more about the SDR, and so I can probably explain what my thoughts are better.

The SDR, as it currently exists, is made up of a basket of currencies. The Dollar, Pound, Euro, and Yen, in weighted amounts. There are 187 members of the IMF, and each has a number of SDR's that it owns. By holding SDR's as assets, the member countries get something with a value that's more stable than owning any single currency, simply because it's an average of the basket currencies. I assume that a country could exchange their SDR for the basket of currencies that make it up, and get similar results in stability. The fact that the SDR can be exchanged for the basket currencies is what gives it it's value today.

It's not the basket that I'm interested in. Although the SDR “contains” a basket of four currencies, the SDR itself is it's own thing. Maybe it's not a physical item (I don't know), but there are a little over 2.5 million SDR's, each with a specific unambiguous owner. As far as I can tell, the 187 member countries can get SDR's from the IMF by providing the basket currencies and some of their own currency in exchange, but they can also buy/sell them directly with other nations.

In a FreeSDR scenerio, I'm not considering a reworking of the basket. I'm wondering if it's possible for the SDR to exist on its own, without backing basket currencies, or if it would collapse without them. This I have not figured out yet.

Costata – the above addresses your second point, but not the first, that the IMF is controlled by the USA. I don't really consider this much of an issue – perhaps I don't fully grasp the problem with it. Today, most of the world is happy to rely on the US Dollar as a reserve asset, so maybe this is why they are willing to also support the USA-dominated IMF asset as well. I can see your argument that if both are supported by USA confidence, then both would fail together. But I'm not as sure of this as you are.

continued....

Dr. Octagon said...

cont...

Let's say that there is a collapse of confidence in the US Dollar, leading to hyperinflation. The 187 members of the IMF all hold some SDR's, including the USA. I do not know if the majority of these countries also hold gold as a reserve asset or not. But this is the sort of thing that the SDR was intended to help with – it will still be seen as having value because the remaining currencies in the basket will have value (some here will argue it will just be a basket of Euros at that point, as the others will hyperinflate with the US dollar).

This is where my crystal ball gets fuzzy, and I could use some help. The 187 member nations could do several things, and likely they will not all do the same thing. What they do will probably depend on how much of their reserve assets are in Dollars, SDR's, gold, and maybe other things. Those with large dollar assets and large gold assets would like to see their gold value rise in proportion (disproportion?) to the dollar value loss. But those with large amounts of Dollars and SDR's but limited gold (e.g. the Federal Reserve, Canada, and others) would prefer to see the the value flow to SDR's. If the USA has overwhelming control over the IMF, then the USA may push to “free” the SDR from its basket, leading to a FreeSDR scenario that looks a lot like Freegold. Other countries that are friendly to the USA, or have small gold reserves, may push for this as well.

But could the SDR survive as a floating store of value on its own, or would it sink immediately? A recent IMF paper on future roles for the SDR doesn't even consider eliminating the basket, only reworking it. Maybe they haven't thought of this, maybe they aren't allowed to include it for political reasons, or maybe it's so unlikely it's not even worth consideration. I think this is a political question, and in the hands of Giants, not shrimps, and I don't know the answer. The shrimp in me knows about the long history of gold as an asset, the accessibility of gold today as a store of wealth, and that the SDR has none of these features. But I don't know if that's enough for giants. I could imagine many central banks preferring a FreeSDR future to Freegold. I don't yet know if it would work.

Motley Fool said...

Matt

Hehe, I understand.

Do remember that other people don't know what is going on in your mind. Thus far your sharing of Your idea of 'debt-free money' has been a bit rambled and incoherent imho.

You may want to consider stepping back and laying your conception out clearly and systematically. Perhaps a blog post or something similar.

That should make discussions easier (and perhaps we could defer discussions on this concept there?).

Just remember to K.I.S.S. :)

TF

Matt said...

Cheers MF/TF.

Nickelsaver said...

The question is not if we think that one particular outcome would be better than another, but rather what outcome is most likely to occur.

This is the truest meaning of, "If you are one of "small worth", can you not follow in the footsteps of giants?"

The only questions remaining are:

Can we trust that the giants know the whole path?

Do we really know what the giants footsteps are, or have they covered their tracks?

Are all the giants going down the same path?

If the giants are in battle with each other, can an ant make it through without getting stepped on?

Which giant(s) will prevail?

Esoteric food for thought.

Nickelsaver said...

On the possibility of the USG devaluating the dollar to keep the engine running; would it not be the desire for the USG to see the USDX rise to the highest point possible in preparation for such a devaluation. If the index were to approach 1.00 again, and it is then devalued to .80.

Just a random thought I had while looking at the charts.

Edwardo said...

Doc Oc wrote:

"Today, most of the world is happy to rely on the US Dollar as a reserve asset."

I believe that proposition is self evidently false. That the dollar is still widely held as a "reserve asset" is more a function of factors such as inertia and fear than one of contentment-which is what I take you to mean when you employ the word happy. I submit as evidence that the world is not content with the dollar as a reserve asset the myriad schemes that have been attempted, and are due to be implemented, that allow for trade to occur sans dollars. Then, of course, there is the Euro itself which clearly was undertaken in no small measure to offer a way out from under the dollar yoke.

Jeff, it's interesting that none of Mr. Bass's interlocutors, at least in the most recent two interviews I've seen have said a peep about gold. And perhaps it's just as interesting that he volunteered nothing about gold.

Mike said...

good article on the upcoming PAGE (Pan Asia Gold Exchange).
Any thoughts?

http://seekingalpha.com/article/312344-positioning-to-profit-from-the-pan-asia-gold-exchange

JR said...

Dr. Octagon,

"I'm wondering if it's possible for the SDR to exist on its own, without backing basket currencies, or if it would collapse without them. This I have not figured out yet."

The SDR is an accounting creation of the IMF. These is no real transactional or wealth storage use for them now. The IMF just creates them at when their is a financial crisis to "re-balance."

What is the IMF. A international organization born out of the dollar system. Guess who is gonna be on the losing end of the ongoing currency war?

FOA: "We will see the beginnings of a currency war like no other in our time...

Several years ago, many gold bugs and gold advocates missed the path as the trail turned. Something I pointed out at the beginning of these "message" talks. As most of you will no doubt agree, almost all gold discussion still centers around "the dollar's war with gold". Truly, the evolution of this story will be how that war ended then and now the dollar's war with the Euro began! A very large part of that war strategy, employed by the ECB/BIS, was to let the dollar / IMF faction hang themselves by expanding and supporting the whole arena of this dollar paper gold market. Inflating the gold market place with so much "paper gold" that we would eventually have to bankrupt ourselves just to keep the dollar in the war game against the Euro."

AavengerBen said...

Well, according to CNBC,

Nobody wants gold anymore

Jeff said...

Doc Oc wrote:

"Today, most of the world is happy to rely on the US Dollar as a reserve asset."

FOA wrote: "The world is heading towards a huge financial/currency crack up, but it won't work out with gold coming back into the money game. This very long term transition is playing on a move away from dollar domination with Europe preparing to suffer less than us by pulling in as many other political trading blocks as they can.

When you look at who they are reaching out to; every one of these blocks wants gold moving higher to shelter their dollar trading losses. None of them expects to unload dollar reserves because our end time trade deficit won't permit it. They can't just send the dollars to each other, buying their own goods... that would never exhaust the external dollar float. Hell they now have their own money to do trade with, the Euro.

The game is to let the US economy suffer from its own bloated expansion by moving slowly away from supporting foreign dollar settlement with CB storage (of dollars). This is more than enough to end the dollars timeline as we are already stretched to the leverage limit. They know that Greenspan has but one policy to use and that will be super printing. He is doing it now, right on que!

The ensuing domestic price inflation will waste away all buying power of dollars overseas."

Jeff said...

Edwardo,

Bass is a known gold bull, so there is a disconnect between his stance on gold and the euro. But then when did anyone on tv ever mention gold on the europeans balance sheet? As with Rickards and others, it is the thing which must not be named.

ampmfix said...

A different look at European "problems" (than ZH and other $IMF defenders), Turk interview of a German banker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jaeC8CEi1DU

Jeff said...

Well, well. GLD puked up 25 tons today. :)

Anonymous said...

Jeff,

according to the GLD website, it puked 14.8 tonnes or about 1.1% of inventory. Although the indicator was officially triggered, it might just be scared small investors continuing to sell GLD although the physical selling in the OTC market has stopped.

If there was really a shortage of physical gold developing, we should see further pukes, even at rising prices.

Victor

costata said...

Dr. Octagon,

I think that this is the only pathway that would allow the SDR to perform as you speculate.

Ultimately the only way for the SDR to work is if the IMF and the SDR sever their ties to the nation state like the Euro. If the basket was proportionally representative (say, percentage of world GDP) then the IMF could become the independent custodian of a one-world-currency.

To become a true Hayekian international “token money” managed in quantity and quality to deliver currency stability.

costata said...

The Too Hard Basket

Greetings sports fans,

I would like to take this opportunity (the carnage in the paper gold market) to deliver the second of costata’s dictums. As keen observers will have noted the paper gold holders are currently receiving a life lesson. The superorganism turned its attention to a pressing need. It “decided” that:

“These paper gold holders are ignoring costata’s rigged market dictum. (Those who can be screwed will be screwed). They must be taught a harsh lesson.”

And yea verily, it came to pass.

So, now in this time of dire need for enlightenment here is dictum two:

The too hard basket is never full.

The too hard basket (THB) functions like a black hole of infinite capacity. No idea, concept or plan hatched by humans has enough “inherent” value (LOL) and excellence that it is guaranteed to avoid the gravitational pull of the too hard basket.

To make matters worse plans and projects that have inherent “too hardness” exert a positive attraction to the THB black hole. If a plan with inherent “too hardness” comes anywhere near the gravitational pull of the THB it will be consumed by the THB instantly. Leaving the sponsors of that “too hard” project standing around saying: “WTF just happened?”

Only the superorganism knows with absolute certainty if a plan or project can avoid the THB. Astute observers must content themselves with weighing probabilities and asking questions such as: Is this too hard to do?

As a service to my fellow citizens of space ship earth I would like to offer you a massive eight (yes, count them - 8) indicators of “too hard-ness” in projects and plans:

i) It requires a lot of people to agree.

ii) There are a large number of steps involved in the implementation.

iii) It is generally complex and difficult to communicate eg. J6P must understand and accept it in order for it to be implemented.

iv) For the political class; it cannot be implemented by next Tuesday and garner general acclaim before the next election.

v) It lacks the properties generally associated with projects labeled “piece of cake” or “no-brainer”.

vi) Nothing like it has ever been tried before.

vii) It has been tried before and performed a massive face plant. (Or tried several times with the same outcome.)

viii) Someone with much more clout, influence, money and power wants (a) the project, or sponsors of said project, to fail or (b) desires a competing project/plan to succeed.

Your humble servant,

costata

costata said...

All,

Heed the wise counsel of VTC:

according to the GLD website, it puked 14.8 tonnes or about 1.1% of inventory. Although the indicator was officially triggered, it might just be scared small investors continuing to sell GLD although the physical selling in the OTC market has stopped.

If there was really a shortage of physical gold developing, we should see further pukes, even at rising prices.


This might be a lot of things with the Authorised Participants busily participating in so many “markets” both public and private.

But the end of these shenanigans will not be signaled by a mere “puke”. Look for the effects of the superorganism administering a weapons grade laxative to these derivative ne’er do wells, these carpetbaggers and their paper games.

We have a ways to go IMVHO.

FOFOA said...

Ahoy mates! Lance Lewis just emailed me his new GLD Puke alert with text. I have posted it as an update at the bottom of UW2.

FOFOA said...

Hello Dr. Octagon,

The SDR is a funny "currency" in that it is not really a currency. What it is is a negotiated (potential) reserve (in case of emergency, break glass and remove SDR), as opposed to an accumulated or earned reserve. But the fact that this is just as true today as it was when the SDR was first conceived does not mean that's how it would be used in the future under the various proposals we hear political monkeys chattering about.

The vital flow of international trade requires international liquidity which is a fancy way of saying it requires an internationally accepted reserve. A reserve is that thing which can be provided by net-consumers, accumulated by net-producers, and which should apply the spur and break forces respectively on the two sides keeping trade in balance over the long run.

Prior to 1971, gold filled half of this role. It flowed from the biggest net-consumer (US) to the net-producers. But with a fixed price of $35/ounce, gold could not keep trade in balance over the long run, so it ultimately failed in its role as international liquidity under the Bretton Woods system. You see, it was a one-way flow. It was never able to apply its natural mechanism of adjustment. And that's just how the US wanted it.

From 1960 through 1968 the US led the effort, called the London Gold Pool, to keep gold from fulfilling its full role as international reserve/liquidity. And by 1969, after eight years of this Gold Pool nonsense, international liquidity had dried up so badly that something had to be done. That something was the creation of the "negotiated reserve" or the SDR, to add some more "international liquidity/reserves" to the system (give the net-producers something to buy with their excess dollars other than gold) to keep the vital (in)flow of international goods flowing (mostly in one direction).

From my post Gold: The Ultimate Wealth Consolidator:

"In 1969, shortly after the collapse of the London Gold Pool and the devaluation of the pound sterling, while the Bretton Woods gold exchange standard was imploding, Alexandre Lamfalussy gave a speech at the IMF titled 'The Role Of Monetary Gold Over The Next Ten Years'. In it he addressed the fact that gold, being of relatively fixed supply, when also fixed at a specified par (price) with the inflating currency, automatically disappears as a source of new international liquidity. Here is a short excerpt:

The striking fact apparent from this Table is that over the last ten years, gold has practically no longer contributed to the growth of international liquidity…

It is therefore right to say that over the last ten years and in particular since 1963-64, we have witnessed a gradual decline in the role of gold as a means of reserve and its complete disappearance as a source of new international liquidity. At the same time, the mechanics of the gold-exchange standard have ceased to function: the creation of reserves by the spontaneous holding of dollars or Sterling has come to a halt **and has been replaced by the creation of negotiated reserves**."


Cont…

FOFOA said...

2/3

But the SDR failed in its intended role almost immediately. America's trading partners still wanted America's gold rather than a new form of paper claim on it. And once cut off from gold, the SDR evolved into its current form, a "basket" of currencies. But when you break the glass and use your SDRs, you don't get this basket of currencies. That basket is only an accounting tool used to determine the value of an SDR in the currency you actually need—in order to defend the value of the currency you print—which has historically meant dollars. So an SDR is really just a changing amount of dollars, depending on the exchange rates (with the dollar) of the yen, pound and euro. This is not a true float, it is a FOREX derivative.

But as I said at the top, this is not what the monkeys are talking about today. What they are talking about is a new form of sovereign debt denominated, not in one's own currency, but in this FOREX derivative or some revised version of it. You could even theoretically add gold to the "basket", but that only becomes part of the accounting tool used to determine how many currency units it is worth at the time you redeem it.

You see, after the SDR failed right out of the starting gate and was then morphed into its current (non-gold) form, it failed again immediately! The net-producers, no longer having gold on the menu of options, chose US debt (Treasuries) over this silly FOREX derivative. The US national debt, which had been held at $400B ever since it was run up to near that level during WWII, now had to be breached in the absence of gold to settle the net-inflow of goods.

So the SDR just sort of hung around as this relic of the failed London Gold Pool and failed Bretton Woods system of fixed gold exchange for the next 40 years. As an accounting tool (or unit of account) it was handy for those CBs that wanted to keep track of their assets in something other than a single currency. But that was about it. Until now.

Now the monkeys have come up with a new idea for the SDR. Let's make SDR bonds (more debt) to use as our international liquidity/reserves. That way the US can't kill the value of its debt when it kills its own currency like it's trying to do right now with QE.

If you're China, you might first think it would be cool if the US would just issue its debt in your currency, the RMB. But then your advisor monkey whispers in your ear something about Weimar Germany and tells you they'll never go for it. But then he says, "maybe they'll go for issuing their debt denominated in a new super-sovereign international reserve currency like a reworked SDR which could include the RMB in its new basket!" And this sounds pretty darn good, like a ripe banana!

While this might sound like a ripe banana to the monkeys, you should be starting to see how it does nothing to solve the problems in the $IMFS. It is simply a redenomination of the same debt that has driven systemic imbalances to historic (and catastrophic) highs. Think of it as kind of like taking the hardness of the euro as felt by the PIIGS in their debt "situation" today, and applying it to the USG and its debt.

The big difference is that the US has a certain amount of control over the IMF, which it will not give up. This would be like Greece having ultimate control of the euro when push comes to shove. And even if you raised the price of gold so as to stabilize it through centralized price management, so that you could then add it to the "basket" as a confidence raising and stable new "basket" member, you're still just dealing with debt. You're trying to create a new paper gold… a supposed claim on gold, not from anywhere in the system, but from a specific debtor, you, the infinite debtor.

Cont…

FOFOA said...

3/3

Your hope in this new "Too Hard Basket" would be that America's trading partners, now used to US debt after 40 years of gorging themselves on it, will choose this new US debt (new paper gold) over the actual physical gold you're trading at your new gold price-fixing window, simply because you think you raised the price of gold "high enough" in your currency. You want this because, as I wrote in the post above:

"With debt as the store of value and official reserve asset, the party producing more real goods has no way to record his net production (savings) other than lending that excess currency back to the consuming party, encouraging him to consume more, and recording the new debt. A true adjustment mechanism makes the balance swing back and forth. But the debt system requires an infinite debtor."

If your trading partners choose your new basket-denominated debt over your gold window, then you've successfully sterilized the adjustment mechanism once again, and you can continue to enjoy the non-stop net-inflow of goods. But if they choose your gold over your new basket(case) debt, then you'll have to defend that price you picked down to the last ounce in order to keep the adjustment mechanism sterile for a little while longer.

Assuming you have 8,000 tonnes of gold, and assuming the current trade deficit as being structural to the status quo of the USG, let's see how quickly you'll lose half of your gold (4,000 tonnes) at various prices we've heard chattered about. In other words, how long will it take for you give into the meritocracy of Freegold? And this exercise ignores all the external dollars already in existence that may swarm the gold window, so we can probably halve these time frames based on that current dollar float alone.

At $6,000 per ounce, with a $565B annual trade deficit, you'll lose half of your gold in 16 months. So assuming that flood of external dollars already out there cuts this time in half, let's say you'll give up and let the price float (with half of your gold now gone) after only 8 months. See how this works?

Okay, at $12,000/oz., we can double that time to a year and one quarter. At $24,000/oz. we'll double it again to two and a half years. And at $48,000/oz., half of your gold will likely buy you another five years of free stuff status quo.

But, you see, it is your very management of the price that limits your prospects. It's your attempt to make the dollar "as good as gold" that always fails. Eventually you will embrace Freegold, one way or the other, with more or less of your gold left. And knowing that, are you still interested in pursuing the prospects of FreeSDRs?

Sincerely,
FOFOA

Nickelsaver said...

You're a killer FOFOA. Gotta love it.

One Bad Adder said...

Re: LL update - The expectation of a $PoG uptick (5%>) in the near future (> 3 months) is ...NIL! IMHO.

Nickelsaver said...

The death of the dollar and TANSTAAFL economics.

Freegold yes, Free lunch no.

Although at today's prices, gold is the blue plate special.

@mortymer001 said...

"If your trading partners choose your new basket-denominated debt over your gold window, then you've successfully sterilized the adjustment mechanism once again.."

The outcome depends on what are those Giant´s objectives.

Jeff said...

Mortymer,

Please expand on your thought. I am trying to imagine what Giant might gain from extending the $IMF dominance into the future.

China? Doubtful, they seem to have had enough US debt. Russia? Already selling Treasuries, and making nasty statements about dollar management. Europe? Already suffering under $IMF collapse, they seem unlikely to tolerate much more of it. Saudi? Big question mark here.

MatthAu said...

ampmfix,

thank you for that link, I enjoyed that interview.

Dr. Octagon said...

Thank you FOFOA for your comment above. It's very much appreciated.

Your characterization “in case of emergency, break glass and remove SDR” is how I see it as well, which is why I've been thinking about it lately. I'm not advocating for FreeSDR, but I think it's worth exploring this path, to see if it it a potential destination or not. Forgive me if my writing style makes my thought experiment sound like avocation.

I also agree that there are people at the IMF talking about SDR-denominated debt, and this is one of the items discussed in the paper I linked earlier. But this is not what I'm talking about. I'd like to come back to this, but for now, in the long run, I accept the dilemma of storing savings in the form of someone else's debt. So SDR-denominated debt is out.

The SDR has changed in the past, and the IMF is obviously open to changing it in the future. While they may not be talking about it today, I'm considering what would happen if the SDR was changed to operate like gold would in a freegold world. In other words, if the SDR changed from the current accounting tool, not into a debt-asset, but instead into a free-floating “token” of sorts. Substitute “1 SDR” in place of “1 oz of gold” in the freegold posts on this site. Is a SDR “as good as gold”? No. But I'll get back to that.

Just for fun, let's do a quick comparison:
1) Today, neither gold nor SDRs are free-floating. Gold is marked to market in the Euro zone only, but against a paper (non physical) price of gold. Getting SDR's to float will require changes from the IMF, and political acceptance from IMF members. Getting gold to float will require the political support to destroy the paper-gold markets, and it will require countries to be more willing to openly buy and sell gold than they are today.
2) Getting a free-floating SDR up to a high nominal value seems easy politically. The IMF members could agree to print a lot more (as they have done in the past), and/or they could all agree to simply revalue the existing SDR's much higher. I imagine getting all SDR-holding countries to all agree that they are worth a lot more will be easy. Getting gold up to a higher nominal value seems like a tougher political action to take.
3) Gresham's law: Most central banks have gold as an asset on their balance sheets. Most also have SDRs on their balance sheet. If a country is able to settle trade deficits with another by selling SDRs or gold, which will it prefer to sell? The SDR is not “as good as gold”, making it more likely to be used than gold.

cont....

Dr. Octagon said...

[2/2]

4) Freegold requires very high prices for gold. This reset of the gold value higher comes with social problems. Those without (most Americans) will be resentful of those with gold (mostly Asians, and those already wealthy enough to own gold). This will lead to protests, likely higher levels of theft (including from the dead), maybe even war. There are social implications here that I think get glossed over, when we instead focus on the benefits we personally would gain in our own gold holdings. These problems do not exist under a FreeSDR scenario, as we shrimps do not own SDRs.
5) Gold is mined out of the ground. Under Freegold, countries will spend large amounts of energy to mine gold, and to protect mining operations. What to do about unauthorized mining is an open question, and not a friendly one. As most Keynesians will quickly point out, this effort could instead be put to something more productive. SDRs are not mined, and they are created effortlessly. Their production would be in the hands of the IMF only. This is a Keynesian dream scenario, and by far, those who make economic decisions are Keynesians. These are the people who I believe could push for FreeSDR over Freegold.
6) Gold is advocated over silver or any other commodity because it is most suited for the role of wealth preservation, because it does not have as many other uses. Solar panel makers will not scream if gold rises to freegold levels, like they would for silver. But gold does have uses in jewelery, dental products, electronics, and other things. SDR's are even better suited to wealth preservation than gold, in this respect.

Getting back to SDR-denominated debt – I've gone on long enough for one post, so I won't get into this too much. I don't believe that SDR debt is a viable long-term solution, but in the short term, I could see it happening. The USA gets a lot of benefit from the rest of the world storing their savings in the form US debt, and I don't see the US giving up that benefit easily. I imagine that the US government will do whatever it can to continue to spend more than it takes in with taxes, and if they are able to issue SDR-denominated debt, and others are willing to buy it, then it'll be tried. Maybe they will not be able to resist attempting this, and the SDR will die as a result of it, never able to take the FreeSDR path. Maybe.

FOFOA – you mention two times when the SDR failed in the past. First when it was competing with gold as a reserve asset (gold was chosen over SDRs), and second when it was competing with US debt as an asset (countries chose treasuries over SDRs). I am going to look more closely into these two historical examples. Hopefully I find some more answers.

JR said...

Dr Octagon,

Why would the SDR have value? Because the IMF or whatever body says so, or because economic actors demand it?

=================================

"Getting a free-floating SDR up to a high nominal value seems easy politically. The IMF members could agree to print a lot more (as they have done in the past), and/or they could all agree to simply revalue the existing SDR's much higher. I imagine getting all SDR-holding countries to all agree that they are worth a lot more will be easy. Getting gold up to a higher nominal value seems like a tougher political action to take."

You've got that one backwards. Gold's already cornered, and that demand is tasking physical higher. Some body can't just can't make SDRs valuable, people have to demand them.

================================

5/26/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)

Understand, all value judgments today are as subject to "exchange rate competition"! It is in "this exchange rate valuations" that the private citizen does denominate all net worth! A safe way to hold the wealth for your future, yes? You should ask a Korean or the Indonesian ?

One should grasp that "today, your wealth, is not what your currency say it is"! In this world, paper currency is for trade, only! It is for the buying, selling, earning and paying, not for knowing the value of your family holdings! Know this, "the printers of paper do never tell the owner that the money has less value, that judgment is reserved for the person you offer that currency to"! Again, I ask, how can we know a true value for our assets, when they are known only in currency that finds it's worth, as in the exchange rate for another currency?"

DP said...

FWIW I can't see any meaningful MoE or SoV use in the future for the SDR.

I can see that, [a large] perhaps, it might be used purely as a UoA, in place of the USD today filling that role among others, as a means to provide more certainty when denominating longer term contracts. More certainty than denominating them in USD, that is. But then again, if USD collapses before that change were made (which at this point seems likely, to me), then it is perhaps even more likely that the world will just switch to EUR instead.

But for me, pragmatist that I am, this is not a particularly important or even compellingly interesting side trail. Within the context of this blog, all I am fundamentally concerned with is understanding the future of the SoV role, so that I can orient myself accordingly. SoV clearly to be filled by gold.

So, taking my cue from The Candy Monkey now, "the DP is out"!

abe said...

JR - re: washington agreement

So capping of the leasing of gold (future gold currently in the ground), gold has been rising because gold is no longer able to hold all of production under the new terms? Am I understanding what you are posting?

Jeff - re: low lease rates

Is it possible that this is a concentrated event to drive sales back into paper gold? Turd noticed the correlation between lease rates being negative and downward pressure on gold on his blog. Would a theory be that this is the US$ realizing that paper sales are a little light and they need people to come back in to purchase, so they lower price? Kind of a managed increase in gold price?



I apologize if my questions have already been asked, I'm behind a couple of days in my reading.

Dr. Octagon said...

JR says - You've got that one backwards. Gold's already cornered, and that demand is tasking physical higher. Some body can't just can't make SDRs valuable, people have to demand them.

What would happen if the US Federal Reserve decides to buy SDRs from other IMF members at $50,000 each (or some similar number), printing dollars to do so?

Again, I'm just exploring this path, not necessarily a believer in it.

JR said...

Umm, the dollar would hyperinflate Dr. Octagon. Is that not obvious?

JR said...

Abe,

We have a fractionally reserved bullion banking system. More paper claims for gold than actual gold. The BBs stepped in and supported the BBs when things got tight and they needed to deliver actual physical. The end of the BB backing meant prices had to rise to have the same amount of gold. Do you see how a rising paper price now means less physical gold is needed to meet the same demand? From the Treasure Chest:

"...The physical gold must continue flowing into the physical boundaries of trade surplus zones while the price of gold rises. Weight-based flow and price level offset each other somewhat. But ultimately this will break the paper gold market because we’re talking about physical flows from the debtor zones into the saver zones."

Do you see why:

This is the real significance of the Washington Agreement! The end of the CB's backing (through lending reserves to the BBs) of the fractional reserve gold practices of the Bullion Banks
Freegold Foundations

==================================

Do you see how the paper gold mechanism was originally designed to guarantee cheap physical specifically for the purpose of 'flow?'

Date: Sun Oct 05 1997 21:29
ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:

The Western governments needed to keep the price of gold down so it could flow where they needed it to flow. The key to free up gold was simple. The Western public will not hold an asset that's going nowhere, at least in currency terms. The problem for the CBs was that the third world has kept the gold market "bought up" by working thru South Africa! To avoid a spiking oil price the CBs first freed up the public's gold thru the issuance of various types of "paper future gold". As that selling dried up they did the only thing they could, become primary suppliers!...

The price of gold today is unstable. Anyone with eyes can see that. Worse, it's rising. Which means the flow of physical gold in the quantities needed (at today's gold price) to lubricate global trade is drying up.

"Gold has always been funny in that way. So many people worldwide think of it as money, it tends to dry up as the price rises."

Dr. Octagon said...

JR said...
Umm, the dollar would hyperinflate Dr. Octagon. Is that not obvious?

The Federal Reserve is the largest holder of SDRs. These will dramatically rise in value relative to the dollar.

It appears to be an accepted argument here that the ECB can bid on gold and bring about freegold. And that the Euro will not hyperinflate like the dollar, because the value will flow to their gold reserves. Can this same argument not work with the Federal Reserve and SDRs? I don't know if it's "legal" or not, but obviously such a move would break the SDR from its "basket of currencies" status, and it seems like it would have the same effect that an ECB/gold move would have.

JR said...

Dr. Octagon,

You are missing the fundamental point that its not about CBs, but private market actors.

Why would SDRs grow in value becuase the US is creating great amounts of new dollars to vastly overpay what anyone else thinks they are worth?

Do you think the creation of great amounts of dollars to buy an asset no one else values is analogous to the ECB bidding on an asset they, every other CB and most importantly, the giants/super-producers, all value highly and have already cornered.

JR said...

More ideas to ponder Dr. O,

FOFOA on its all about private, not CB, gold

...The reality is, and always has been, that the real reserves behind any currency are primarily the physical gold held in private ownership within that currency zone's physical boundaries, and secondarily the collective reserves held on public display. Those collectively-owned (official) reserves are only for the management (or mismanagement) of the currency until and unless they are finally used in defense of a full-blown collapse of the currency, the ultimate end of a mismanagement timeline, or in times of all-out war when gold becomes the ultimate (and only) transactional currency among distrusting neighbors...

Do private actors use SDRs?

=================================

What about the "membrane" that exists between official and unofficial gold?

"Since 1933 there has been a thin membrane that separates sovereign entities (SE) from private entities (PE) when it comes to gold transfers.

Gold moves from PE > PE as a commodity. And it moves from deficit running sovereign entities (SE-D) to surplus running sovereign entities (SE-S) as a monetary asset; a balancing function in the monetary system. SE are different than PE because they can print money, and they collect foreign currency surpluses.

Whenever gold starts to pass through that membrane, no matter in which direction, a phase transition starts to occur. If a SE-S tries to buy gold from the PEs, gold starts to phase-shift from a commodity into a monetary asset. If a SE-D tries to sell gold to the PEs for the foolhardy scam of lowering its commodity value, gold starts to phase-shift to a monetary asset because it is clear what SE-D is doing (especially to SE-S).

Freegold will be the elimination of the membrane. All players will be on a level playing field. This is not a gold standard. But it is a shared function for gold between SE and PE.

By the way, think about $6,000 gold trading amongst the giants with this membrane in mind."


No such membrane exists for SDRs in the absence of any private usage

JR said...

Hi Abe,

My dysgraphia is on fire today :). The above should read:

The CBs stepped in and supported the BBs when things got tight and they needed to deliver actual physical. The end of the CB backing meant prices had to rise to allow the BBs' physical gold to last longer.

Dr. Octagon said...

JR – thanks for continuing to respond. Hopefully you're not growing tired of me yet :-)

It's true that private actors do not use SDRs, as these are not available to them. Central banks only I believe. I haven't yet determined how much this matters. My own dilemma here is why do we still have the Triffin dilemma? Why are citizens, central banks, regular banks, private market actors, etc putting their savings into US treasuries and other debt, when they could put it into gold, which is readily available, and undervalued? I'm sure that many giants are in gold, but what do you call all the entities who are in treasuries and other debt instruments? There must be giants here too. And I would guess that there are more giants saving in debt than in gold, but again, I don't know why. So I think there is more faith in the various forms of government-sponsored paper than we give credit for, and perhaps this faith overrides the fact that individuals do not own SDRs today.

 Zhou Xiaochuan Seems to argue for a more accessible SDR.

I still haven't had time to read up on the previous failings of the SDR that FOFOA mentioned.

JR said...

"So I think there is more faith in the various forms of government-sponsored paper than we give credit for, and perhaps this faith overrides the fact that individuals do not own SDRs today."

Governed sponsored paper is more owned becuase the $IMFs is the system we have. From Once Upon a Time:

"...What the 1922 Genoa Conference did was to institutionalize the "sterilization" of gold for the rest of the world through the reserve structure of the international banking system. And this bit of genius was decided by a "committee of experts" from 34 different countries. They did this by introducing paper gold—or paper promises of gold—into the international banking system as reserves equal to the gold itself. This wasn't the first paper gold, but it was the first time that specific paper gold (that from New York and London) was used as an equal reserve upon which credit can be expanded. What is acceptable as international reserves is critical because trade settlement is a function of the reserves. This conference was the birth of the $IMFS."

It appears you agree this system collapsing based on your discussion of what comes next, yes? So you would also agree the vestige of a collapsing system is not evidence of confidence in said system, correct?

Dr. Octagon said...

Hmm.... JR - I need to think on this for a while. Thank you for your insights.

costata said...

If You Aren’t Watching The Road You Could Miss The Turn

Part 1/5

I want to present a case to you arguing that the Euro is a viable, emergency international trade currency right now and it has been for over 10 years. And the transition could be lightning fast IF necessary. I also want to alert you to the existence of some false indicators. The main one being that the continuing existence of the $IMFS is evidence that it can continue indefinitely or won’t end suddenly. Perhaps this quote will whet your appetite:

The replacement of Sterling by the US dollar occurred when the US$ was less than 30% of central banks reserves.

More on this below but first some background on how I came to these conclusions (after a long period of confusion) in order to see if some of you are confused about the Euro’s reserve role too.

When I was regularly dipping into the archives of Another and FOA I found references to the Euro as a “reserve” confusing. I realized that they could not be suggesting that the Euro was designed to replace the US dollar as the world’s global reserve currency. Triffin’s Dilemma was well known to, and understood by, the Euro architects. A “poisoned chalice” for the currency issuer is how I have often described it here in these discussions.

The Swiss National Bank’s efforts to lower the exchange value of their Franc clearly demonstrates that a currency issuer can prevent their currency from becoming a global reserve driven by market forces. And, incidentally, there was so much confusion about this from analysts of the “market forces will triumph” variety. Of course a fiat currency issuer can lower the exchange value of their currency. All they have to do is, er, issue currency in size.

To prop up the value of a currency, as the BOE famously attempted to do some years ago, you run out of chips in that game when you run out of FX reserves to buy back the currency you issued previously.

Back to A/FOA. For quite some time I settled on the explanation that A/FOA meant that the Euro would be a reserve currency held for trade. The Euro would actively compete with the US dollar to be the medium of exchange (MoE) in international trade. But this notion was never entirely satisfactory. Wim Duisenberg had made comments about the Euro being “for Europe” and not a currency for the rest of the world to use. Other central bankers and EU officers had reinforced this message in numerous speeches and papers.

Continued/

costata said...

/Continued

Part 2/5

Thinking of the Euro as a competing trade currency also led me to give weight to arguments about the significance of the continued use of the US dollar in trade and, likewise, as a reserve currency. Since the US dollar remains the primary international trade currency this is often presented as solid evidence that the US dollar isn’t “going away” anytime soon.

It is argued that the figures speak for themselves. As . this writer notes below the Euro has not shown any sign of overtaking the US dollar as a reserve currency. This is oftentimes presented as a failure by the Euro to dethrone King Dollar (my emphasis):

At the end of 2009, the dollar accounted for 62% of declared official foreign-exchange reserves, up from 59% in 1995…… the euro share of foreign-exchange reserves at the end of 2009 — 27% — was roughly equal to the percentage of reserves in 1995 denominated in the old currencies of those European countries that eventually adopted the euro

The US dollar is still, by a large margin, the currency most often used in international trade. That said, the Euro has a wide enough circulation and use in trade (around 25 per cent) to be a credible secondary international trade currency (capable of rapid expansion in this role if required?).

As Wikipedia notes here in presenting a table showing central banks allocated reserves in euros and US dollars:

The impact of the growing unallocated reserves on the shares of euros vs US dollar has been studied only very recently.

This sounds analogous to my ears to the situation a couple of years ago when China surprised everyone (or most of us) by announcing a 450 m/t increase in its gold reserves. IMF members are supposed to update the IMF regularly on any changes in their gold holdings. How did China get around the rules? Perhaps by accumulating the gold as a commodity, a non-monetary gold holding and therefore outside the reporting requirements. Could the unallocated currency reserves of some countries present a different picture to their official, allocated reserves?

Continued/

costata said...

/Continued

Part 3/5

Now let’s take a look at an earlier “changing of the guard” in the international trade currency of choice. This writer concludes (my emphasis):

First, Schenk’s work has enlightened the need to distinguish the reference currency used for the usual international trade from the dominant currency in central banks reserves. The currency used for the international trade is a simple political choice, based on the known currency stability at this time.

….The replacement of Sterling by the US dollar occurred when the US$ was less than 30% of central banks reserves.

So can we rely on the continuing use of the US dollar as an indicator that the $IMFS remains viable? That the old war horse, the US dollar system, still has plenty of life in it? Plenty of staying power?

With these questions and thoughts in mind if:
i) the Euro is not designed to replace the US dollar as the sole global reserve currency; and
ii) the Euro is not designed to replace the US dollar in world trade through competition; and
iii) countries holding large reserves of US dollars and USG debt cannot dump those reserves without destroying the purchasing power of those reserves; then –

What kind of “reserve” currency is the Euro?

The answer to this question, the one that resolved my confusion, is that the Euro is a reserve currency - in reserve - so to speak. A secondary reserve currency but only for trade purposes. Of course countries could choose to hold it as a reserve asset. But the EU won’t be required to run a trade deficit with the rest of the world under this new regime (as the USA must in order to maintain the $IMFS).

Continued/

costata said...

/Continued

Part 4/5

To me, this trade angle explains the haste in completing the launch of the Euro. The need for an emergency reserve currency for international trade. An alternative to oil bidding for gold if the US dollar failed suddenly. The catastrophe Another could see on the horizon in 1997 that prompted him to speak out. And if you doubt that this would have been a catastrophe speak up because this is fundamental to the discussion here and to understanding the matters we discuss.

Again quoting the writer I linked earlier, here he is discussing the transition from Sterling to the US dollar (my emphasis):

We can even precise that the speed of devaluing is not in the hands of its emitting country. It is fully in the hands of others central banks who own large assets in this currency. They must negotiate successfully in order to avoid a brutal currency collapse. This deal must be executed during tens of years to release the deflationary pressure step by step, using small devaluings.

If you give this notion some thought (of having an emergency trade currency ready to role ;)) I think it ticks all the “boxes” in explaining a lot of the policy decisions by governments that we can observe around the world in recent years. It also helps to explain why the can (the $IMFS) could be kicked down the road for so long.

No need to hasten the demise of the US dollar. Simply let nature take its course. Let Triffin’s Dilemma produce the outcome it predicts. Failure of the US dollar as the result of conflict between domestic economic policies and the needs of the international community. No need to compete with the US dollar as a trade currency. Provided trade is proceeding then US dollars, or anything else that gets the job done, will do just fine.

No need to risk starting a world war by mounting a head-on challenge to the US administration’s foreign policy. Give those policies token support where you have to and let the USA squander its resources in wars of choice in other people’s back yards. The Europeans certainly don’t want wars in their “backyard” again – “NIMBY thank you very much”, says “Old Europe”.

No point in attempting to dump your US dollar currency and debt reserves. Simply hedge the exposure with other asset reserves. Change the weighting of, say, gold as a proportion of your sovereign wealth reserves. Diversify your FX reserves as much as you can without destabilizing the FX market. Hide the true disposition of your resources (like China did with gold). Use sovereign wealth funds to acquire productive assets (and spread those purchases around to limit geopolitical risk).

Continued/

costata said...

/Continued

Part 5/5

When one asset, such as your US dollar/debt, goes down (collapses?) then those losses are offset by increases in the value of your non-dollar assets. Then simply wait or even co-operate in “kicking the can down the road” to maintain the US dollar based system while you strengthen your position.

So it is my contention that neither the US dollar nor the Euro’s use in trade, and as a CB asset reserve, is a leading indicator of a “changing of the guard”. Neither is the exchange rate between the Euro and the US dollar. The Euro is in place, ready as the “in case of emergency please break glass” international trade currency. And physical gold is designated as the primary global reserve asset (SoV) under this Euro Freegold-RPG architecture to avoid the poison chalice of the Euro becoming the new global reserve currency.

So the demand for physical gold is the leading indicator to watch not the Euro except in one specific function of the Euro. It’s MoE function. If that function is destroyed then the world no longer has an emergency trade currency alternative to the dollar.

So in the process of losing a false indicator or two we can perceive three with greater clarity. We can observe the take up of physical gold as a reserve asset by CBs and private citizens. We can watch for diligent efforts on the part of the ECB Eurosystem to protect the MoE function of the Euro from the catastrophic loss of confidence that is hyper-inflation. (To maintain currency stability.) And if the US administration is confident that the threat of oil bidding for gold is contained then confidence in the Euro as a MoE is the key point of attack in their “currency war” with the Euro.

Lastly we can observe efforts, such as the SDR, to foist a new quasi-US$, US controlled, reserve standard on the international community. And as we watch the plans for a “new” SDR unfolding we can look for signs that the too hard basket is exerting its immense gravitational pull on this latest attempt to flog a dead horse back to life.

Jeff said...

Thank you Costata.

Your writing puts a new light on something I have been thinking about; Jim Rickards' discussion of financial warfare and seeming support of SDRs. Putting the pieces together, Rickards sees the US 'confiscating' Euro gold stores in the US. At the same time the new SDRs will be issued. Is this a strike at the euro? Destroy confidence in the euro strength in gold while simultaneously increasing US gold stock. Raise the price of gold, put some gold backing in SDRs?

costata said...

Hi Jeff,

I'm not sure what Rickards really thinks. It is always a big challenge to try to "get inside" someone's head. Whenever he is pinned down on many of the issues he raises he tends to retreat into statements like "this is just one of the options" or "I didn't say..." (as opposed to clarifying).

The theme that I think is most consistent in Rickard's public utterances is control - control of the IMFS by the USA as the dominant power now and in the future.

So to put your questions into a specific context: How do these actions maintain (or deliver) control to the USA? How do these actions prevent another party excercising control?

There's also a strong element of military thinking in Rickard's work. So perhaps one could try to answer the questions you have raised by attempting to adopt a military mindest eg. What are the strategic objctives?

Does this make sense to you?

costata said...

I wonder if this report, regarding European banks, is true:

"With access to liquidity being constrained, market participants have increasing problems to refinance," says a note from Credit Suisse researchers.

"As a result they have to sell their assets – including precious metals – to raise the much needed cash. This is the main reason why Gold Prices fall on days of increasing funding stress."


http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/gold_prices_121620114

JR said...

FOA via "Does Fiat Produce an Endless Sea of Wars?"

We must not confuse a currency's "total demise" or "falling out of use" with a "loss of identity". In our time there have been few major moneys that went away. Today, we have a whole world of national fiats "in use" and "not demised" that still carry their nations identity. They lose value at an incredible rate, are mismanaged to the highest degree, are laughed at and despised. But, still they are "in use" as they function for their governments and economies. Usually, they function along side whatever major reserve currency is in vogue. Today, the dollar, tomorrow the Euro. Make no mistake, the entire internal US sector can and will function as it's currency runs a price inflation just like these third world countries. We will adapt as they have by dropping our living standard accordingly and adopting the Euro as our second money. Also:

The prestige that we have the largest military force in the world does not help our money problem. We talk as if we will let any country die that does not use our money or support our currency. I point out that the British also made such comments and it didn't stop their downfall. Nor the Russians. Also:

I point out that many, many other countries also have the same "enormous resources; physical, financial, and spiritual" that we have. But the degrading of our economic trading unit, the dollar places the good use of these attributes in peril. Besides, the issue beyond these items is our current lifestyle. We buy far more than we sell, a trade deficit. Collectively, net / net, using our own attributes and requiring the use of other nation's as well. Not unlike Black Blade's Kalifornians sucking up their neighbors energy supplies (smile). We cannot place your issues up as example of our worth to other nations unless we crash our lifestyle to a level that will allow their export! Something our currency management policy will confront with dollar printing to avert. Also:

NO, "this country will not turn over and simply give in" as you state. But, we will give up on our currency! Come now, let's take reason in grasp. Our American society's worth is not it's currency system. Around the world and over decades other fine people states have adopted dollars as their second money, only to see their society and economy improve. Even though we see only their failing first tier money. What changes is the recognition of what we do produce for ourselves and what we require from others to maintain our current standard of living. In the US this function will be a reverse example from these others. We will come to know just how "above" our capabilities we have been living. Receiving free support by way of an over-valued dollar that we spent without the pain of work.

And later:

Won't happen! Plan on Americans using inflating dollars as their local transactional currency and Euros as their second currency.

And again:

Of course I own dollars and will likely keep using them right thru any super inflation. I never expect the dollar to disappear.

And:

Mind you, this is all happening while Western style "Hard Money Socialists" are defending their stance by saying the Euro is just another fiat. Ha!

Nickelsaver said...

The majority of Americans don't even use physical dollars anymore. I pay all my bills on the computer. I carry debit and credit cards. If I go into a store that displays a sign the says "cash only", most of the time I just turn around and leave.

A switch to the Euro would be no big deal. It's just a different scale, a different unit of account. A computer can easily calculate an exchange rate. The numbers are all relative, a percentage of a total.

Why go to the trouble of printing paper or minting token coins to represent that unit of account? Why not just stay in the digital domain entirely?

How about this?

What if each person could carry with them a device that stores all of their information. An integrated digital wallet. And suppose that wallet was encrypted with a genetic signature, so that it could not be stolen and used by someone else.

In this system, this digital wallet is the MoE.

And what if the UoA simply became a single global standard, no exchange rate at all. This would resolve Triffin's dilemma.

In this system, SoV would reside outside the system in the form of all real goods, services, and commodities. This would resolve FOFOA's dilemma.

This system would resolve the trade imbalance. Each zone would be able to function both locally and globally and never see a difference in the perception of value in commerce.

Unfortunately. In this system, you would have free floating gold, but it would not be the arbiter. The single UoA and MoE would not require it.

Gold would still act as a good SoV, but its value would be modest in comparison to Freegold, since it would not serve as the sole SoV.

How do we get there?

We travel along the path that we all see in front of us. We get out of paper and into real SoV's. Gold will do. That covers all of the giants. Commodities are nice. That covers the wannabe giants. Goods and services will do. The covers the ants.

Does any one see this transition, out of the current system and into a brave new one, happening cleanly?

Of course not. There will be death, starvation, war, violence, crime, on a scale never before seen.

All of humanity is going to yearn for PEACE.

Leadership from a single source will be the ONLY way out.

Have you ever been in a crowd, everyone talking to everyone else, chaotic and unorganized? Then someone stands up to a podium, taps on a mic, and begins to talk. The whole room begins to quiet.

Now think of that on a global scale.

This is a rational and probable. And yet is it unthinkable?

Motley Fool said...

Costata

Fwiw, it is my opinion that the creation of the euro was a useful but not a necessary step, in the path to FreeGold.

You asked.

TF

Motley Fool said...

"And what if the UoA simply became a single global standard, no exchange rate at all. This would resolve Triffin's dilemma."

That's true, but getting there is a lot harder than you may imagine. Perhaps in a few hundred years, for now the cultural divides are simply too large.

"In this system, SoV would reside outside the system in the form of all real goods, services, and commodities. This would resolve FOFOA's dilemma."

You are missing something here; that even if all goods, services and commodities were 'fair game' to fulfil the SoV function, a competition would immediately begin between every good for that function. One good would emerge victorious. Strange as it may seem, I predict it would be gold. ;) Which leaves us with freegold again. Albeit ever so slightly different if we assume one MoE ( which aint gonna happen my friend).

Your crowd example assumes a homogeneous cultural tie. Would Libyan muslims look to the words of an American President? Chinese peasants to the words of an Australian Prime Minister? Swiss middle class to the words of a African tribal king?

Who do you imagine could bridge all the gaps that exist?

TF

Anonymous said...

Excerpt from a very interesting speech by Bini Smaghi yesterday on “The reform of the international monetary system” (http://bit.ly/tmH5MV):

1/2

I tend to share Tommaso’s view that soft international cooperation alone, though necessary, would be sufficient. In his words, “coordination fails precisely when it is most needed, i.e. when policy preferences are most divergent”. My experience confirms that even in the wake of the global financial crisis – which brought home global interdependencies and the porosity of national boundaries for national policies – international cooperation continues to be based on the premise that the pursuit of national interests is the best approximation of the Pareto superior result. It is the philosophy underlying the G20 Mutual Assessment Process, which seeks to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced growth.

Another weakness of the current international monetary system is that in its centre of gravity – the United States – economic and monetary policy are shaped to suit domestic interests. The current system mimics therefore, as I said earlier, a generalised version of the Triffin dilemma. Tommaso recognised it as such and identified some of the elements of a solution.

First, he argued for some sort of “common exchange rate mechanism” which would ensure that every country agrees to shoulder its responsibility for the appropriate valuation of their currency and that exchange rates are determined by the interaction between the market and economic policy. He anticipated that this would be well supported by floating regimes for large currencies, while smaller countries
[me: eg, Switzerland?] may thrive with an intermediate regime consistent with the geographic pattern of their economic and financial linkages, possibly a managed peg to the regionally dominant currency. He observed, for example, the very strong regional interdependencies in East Asia and the momentum these create for a regional monetary arrangement comparable to those which Europe sought after the Bretton Woods system came to an end.

The distinctions between large and small economies, and floating and managed currencies, are particularly revealing at the present time, when we are seeing a large anomaly. We are currently facing an unprecedented situation in which a once-small economy that pegged its currency to that of a large economy has since grown to become the world’s second-largest national economy. The result is a giant economy running a fledgling currency internationally, outsourcing its monetary policy and its international requirements for money (as a medium of exchange, unit of account and store of value) to the globally dominant currency. This has been a major source of imbalances in recent years. The way in which it has been addressed has been unsatisfactory and the effects on the prospects for the global economy are likely to become graver over time.

The major economies, while recognising the domestic impact of the policies of others, have yet to appropriately factor mutual interdependence into their utility functions and policy deliberations. In Europe, we had the luxury of reflecting on European interdependencies in decades of calmer conditions when making successive attempts to produce a stable European monetary order, leading up to European monetary union. And still, we did not learn the lessons well enough and are now having to do so the hard way. There is no alternative but for a stricter supranational disciplinary element in Europe and, by corollary, at global level. As Tommaso said, it is nonsensical for countries to believe that they can reap the benefits of economic and financial integration without their policies acknowledging the two-way street.

Anonymous said...

2/2

The second issue is the need for an anchor to ensure the stability of a reformed international monetary system. More specifically, the interplay of demand for, and supply of, the reserve currency should be limited to what supports global stability. Just as Triffin saw an unresolvable tension for global stability arising from the subordination of the management of reserve-issuing currencies to domestic policy interests, Tommaso considered that this tension was keeping the disorder alive. In his view, what was needed was a quantum of supranationality that would hold sway over the global monetary policy stance. And here, he thought more could be made of a supranational currency, the Special Drawing Right (SDR). Tommaso recognised the hurdles to the SDR assuming its heralded role as the key reserve asset, in particular, the need for a critical mass of SDRs in both public and private sector circulation.

Although the SDR may have the potential to reduce the Triffin dilemma, it cannot remove it. As a basket of currencies, it would not reflect the domestic policy interests of the dominant economy, but rather the ‘average’ for the economies of all the currencies in the basket. And in this respect, it would only improve on global stability to the extent that the ‘average’ policy stance was better than the dominant policy. However, a mere average of policies driven by national objectives is no guarantee for the public good of a stable monetary anchor on a global scale. This would require a policy framework anchoring the global standard to an objective of global stability.

An alternative view is that of a multi-polar currency system. The emergence of such a system would accompany the global rebalancing of economic power that is taking place. It would be a market-driven process rather than requiring an international agreement, framework or mechanism. And to be most conducive to global stability, the shift to a multi-currency system should ideally occur gradually.


Like the SDR, it offers a welcome alternative to the reliance on one dominant national currency for stability, and should have the effect of eroding the exorbitant privilege of the US dollar and increasing the policy discipline on all major, internationally-used currencies. But also like the SDR, stability under a multi-currency system would still ultimately rely on nationally-oriented policies, though in the case of the multi-currency system, market participants would choose directly the sets of national policies they prefer. Would this reduce volatility, or would it be even greater, as players switch among currencies, particularly in the transition phase as the currency composition of reserves is re-weighted?

Of course, a shift to a multi-currency system requires that the privilege of incumbency of the US dollar be removed, that the sovereign debt weaknesses in the euro area be resolved, and that the renminbi develop its full international potential.

costata said...

Hold Not Thy Breath

Hi Arch,

Of course, a shift to a multi-currency system requires that the privilege of incumbency of the US dollar be removed, that the sovereign debt weaknesses in the euro area be resolved, and that the renminbi develop its full international potential.

There can be only two (for now).

Jeff said...

rickards:

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2011/12/17_Jim_Rickards.html

Anonymous said...

Hi costata,

I don't think Bini Smaghi would disagree with you.

It's not clear from the portion of his speech that I posted above, but based on the context of the full speech, I don't think he's suggesting that renmimbi needs to become a global reference (MoE) for the shift to occur; instead I think he's saying China needs to get rid of the USD peg (and thus stop accumulating reserves).

He refers to the peg/reserves issue quite explicitly in another part of the speech.

Anonymous said...

Rickards via twitter:

Those mocking Euro efforts on fiscal policy should read actual draft treaty http://bit.ly/u8Mgee. Miles ahead of anything Congress has done

Nickelsaver said...

TF,

"You are missing something here; that even if all goods, services and commodities were 'fair game' to fulfil the SoV function, a competition would immediately begin between every good for that function."

In the absence of a currency trade imbalance, what forces would generate that competition?

"Your crowd example assumes a homogeneous cultural tie. Would Libyan muslims look to the words of an American President? Chinese peasants to the words of an Australian Prime Minister? Swiss middle class to the words of a African tribal king?"

In terms of our current reality, I agree, such a leader would not be looked for.

I image the scenario that would have to occur for the emergence such a government would be as follows:

Total economic system collapse. This one is easy, we all expect this.

Conflict between cultural, religious and political forces reaches a saturation point, resulting in a limited Thermonuclear exchange. War on a scale never before seen, puts man on the brink of extinction. The vocal minorities, the radicals, embrace war. The silent majority fear it and look for a way out of it.

War and economic collapse interrupts the flow of necessary goods and services. Starvation occurs on a grand scale. Energy supplies are cut off turning the most developed nations into 3rd world countries in a matter of weeks.

As I type this, I see at the bottom of my screen a picture of the entire world. It does not seem so large.

A leader coming out of the US, China, Africa, or Australia does not occur to me. A leader coming out of EU does.

Think of what the EU represents - a severing of the tie to the nation state. Granted, it has no leader now. But image the scenario I described, and imagine that the EU (which holds to its vision of freedom from the nation state) becomes the model embraced by the ever shrinking world.

This was the model first created by the US constitution. The USA sought to embrace all peoples, all religions, all belief systems. Its failure was not in its concept, but in its implementation. A two party adversarial system could only last so long. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

The EU is a reworking of this model, making adjustments to include the entire world. The only thing missing is the figure head.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Granted, what I am describing is a big "what if". Nevertheless, it is what I see.

You cannot simply view economic change on the scale discussed on this forum, without considering all of the other factors that come with it. Wealth preservation is not the only consideration.

In other words, the dominoes are not merely monetary. A paradigm shift will necessitate a change on every front.

Jeff said...

The Silver Rush at MF Global
By ERIN E. ARVEDLUND
December 17, 2011

It's one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.

That, in essence, is what's happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global.

The trustee overseeing the liquidation of the failed brokerage has proposed dumping all remaining customer assets—gold, silver, cash, options, futures and commodities—into a single pool that would pay customers only 72% of the value of their holdings. In other words, while traders already may have paid the full price for delivery of specific bars of gold or silver—and hold "warehouse receipts" to prove it—they'll have to forfeit 28% of the value.

That has investors fuming. "Warehouse receipts, like gold bars, are our property, 100%," contends John Roe, a partner in BTR Trading, a Chicago futures-trading firm. He personally lost several hundred thousand dollars in investments via MF Global; his clients lost even more. "We are a unique class, and instead, the trustee is doing a radical redistribution of property," he says.

Roe and others point out that, unlike other MF Global customers, who held paper assets, those with warehouse receipts have claims on assets that still exist and can be readily identified.

But it's a burning issue for the Commodity Customer Coalition, a group that says it represents some 8,000 investors—many of them hedge funds—with exposure to MF Global. "I've issued a declaration of war," says James Koutoulas, lead attorney for the group, and CEO of Typhon Capital Management.

At stake is an unspecified, but apparently large, volume of gold and silver bars slated for delivery to traders through accounts at MF Global, which filed for bankruptcy on Oct. 31. Adding insult to the injury: Of the 28% haircut, attorney and liquidation trustee James Giddens has frozen all asset classes, meaning that traders have sat helplessly as silver prices have dropped 31% since late August, and gold has fallen 16%. To boot, the traders are still being assessed fees for storage of the commodities...

http://tinyurl.com/ceganja

Victory said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Victory said...

in a closed loop system is the interest expense that accompanies credit expansion a mathematical inequality? P = P + I (sorry don't have a does not equal sign on my keyboard)

Or theoretically can P & I be repaid (no explicit defaults) through aggregate price inflation?

If the latter is true and I don't know if it is I'm asking - but if it is does freegold accomplish this through absorbing that inflation into the focal point asset with the least amount of social disruption?

(Not to mention the asset that many of the largest debt holders in the world happen to already own)

JR said...

Indeed Arch,

I got the sense Bini Smaghi's point echos A/FOA's message about the importance of trading partners and a multipolar system built around regional trade currencies linked together through a floating physical gold price. Sure for now as we transition from one reserve currency the Euro must be big enough to pick up the slack, but I've always understood that the process would continue to evolve as more currencies embraced the MTM structure and followed the Euro's path to stability:

"The world is heading towards a huge financial / currency crack up, but it won't work out with gold coming back into the money game. This very long term transition is playing on a move away from dollar domination with Europe preparing to suffer less than us by pulling in as many other political trading blocks as they can."

=========================

As in real war defense, of today, some countries hold a much lesser army, and depend on "the alliance" with other stronger nations to defend them. Such it is with the currencies! Many states hold but a few "digital currencies" as reserves for currency wars and see no need for "gold nuclear weapons". They sell off these weapons and do join "the currency alliance" of stronger nations. We see this in Europe, yes?"

5/21/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)"


=========================

Robert Mundell: The advent of the euro has demonstrated to one and all how successful a well-planned fixed exchange rate zone can be. ... The 11 countries of the
euro zone are now getting a better
monetary policy than they ever had
before. The creation of the euro zone therefore suggests a viable approach to the formation of other currency areas when prospective members can agree on a common inflation rate and a coordinated monetary policy.

===============================

Smaghi: An alternative view is that of a multi-polar currency system. The emergence of such a system would accompany the global rebalancing of economic power that is taking place. It would be a market-driven process rather than requiring an international agreement, framework or mechanism. And to be most conducive to global stability, the shift to a multi-currency system should ideally occur gradually.

More on these ideas here

Victory said...

Costata,

great piece on 'If You Aren’t Watching The Road You Could Miss The Turn
'!

One Bad Adder said...

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$TYX:$IRX&p=D&b=5&g=0&id=p58451744768

This is the "Daily" version of the Short : Long T's Ratio I put up recently.
We again appear to be entering the vortex ...the next phase of which is retreat from the Long end ...into the Short - which will be typified by this rising Chart.
Of course this IS only an indicator ...but a really good one ...and for Free!

Anonymous said...

I emailed the following info to a friend with whom I had discussed the topic previously. I post it here in case it is of use/interest to others, whether in a practical sense or in understanding just how much the EU differs from other entities in its treatment of gold. I fully appreciate the rationale of holding one's gold “very close”, but each of us has an actual or theoretical limit on how much we are willing to hold in one location. . .

---

I'm planning to move some gold coins in the near future, so I followed up with some further research on moving gold coins into and out of EU countries.

It's actually quite a bit simpler than I expected, because there is an EU-wide rule on this.  European Union countries exempt "investment gold" from VAT.  "Investment gold" is defined as gold coins which:
- are of a purity equal to or greater than 900 thousandths;
- are minted after 1800;
- are or have been legal tender in the country of origin; and
- are normally sold at a price which does not exceed the open market value of the gold contained in the
coins by more than 80%.
Numismatic coins are explicitly excluded.

Moving such coins within the EU involves no declaration or duty.  Moving such coins into or out of the EU must be declared if of a value greater than €10,000 but there is no duty payable-- they are treated as cash.  It is unclear to me whether value for this purpose is face value on the coins or market value.  (I am waiting to hear back from customs on this point.)

Finally, many (all?) EU countries do not assess capital gains tax on the "investment gold" coins issued by that same country.  For example, the UK does not charge capital gains tax on gold Sovereigns/Britannias; but it does charge capital gains tax on Austrian gold Philharmonics just as it charges capital gains tax on euros (as measured in GBP).  In other words, "investment gold" coins are treated as cash in the UK (and many(all?) other EU countries) for both VAT and capital gains tax purposes.

Some references:
- European Commission on VAT for gold:  http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/special_schemes/index_en.htm
- the EC directive on a special scheme for investment gold:  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31998L0080:en:HTML
- the 2011 version of the (non-exhaustive) annually published list of VAT exempt gold coins:  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2010:322:0013:0026:EN:PDF
- EC cash controls and the requirement to declare if carrying greater than €10,000:  http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/customs/customs_controls/cash_controls/index_en.htm

costata said...

Arch,

I agree with your analysis of the Bin Smaghi speech. I was having a (genial) dig at TMF and assaying a little Misean joke for JR's amusement.

Victory,

Thank you.

IMHO you have this inflation/interest concept correct. Gold will absorb the inflationary impulses under a Freegold-RPG regime.

Nickelsaver and TMF,

This is an interesting exchange between you guys:

TMF
"You are missing something here; that even if all goods, services and commodities were 'fair game' to fulfil the SoV function, a competition would immediately begin between every good for that function."

N
In the absence of a currency trade imbalance, what forces would generate that competition?

The answer is the double coincidence of wants. The competition should be viewed in the past tense. The contest was decided by superior liquidity and lowest marginal utility.

The winner was (and is) gold over all other commodities. Not at a single point in time, or single comparison with another commodity at a point in time, but in an overall "scoring" of the contest.

A win on points as opposed to a knockout. A champion based on the most contests won.

In this mental association of value it is very difficult to hold two reference points in your mind at the same time. Having two doubles the mental stress. Likewise four and so on.

I have to log off now. If this doesn't make sense I will try to explain later.

jeb said...

Hey guys, just having a thought on the implementation of free gold. The ECB primary job is to maintain price stability, so I'm thinking they would implement free gold in response to price instability, which, given their current circumstances, would be in the next few years? Or is it more complicated than that?

FOFOA said...

Ha! Wow! Thank you, Jeff!

So it seems that warehouse receipts for physical metal at the CME/COMEX are no better than cash in your account if your broker goes bankrupt? This is potentially HUGE news. Someone should keep an eye on that 260 tonnes of "eligible" stock sitting there this week (and another 93 tonnes of registered):

www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/files/Gold_Stocks.xls

I'd sure be pulling out if I had my gold sitting there. I see someone at HSBC moved a tonne from registered to eligible on Thursday (preparation for pulling it out?), and someone at Scotia Mocatta pulled a third of a tonne out altogether. Meanwhile JP Morgan moved two tonnes into COMEX eligible. Perhaps it was some of that GLD Puke?

So keep an eye on gold moving from registered to eligible which is step 1 of pulling out (if your gold is registered). Then "withdrawn" from eligible is step 2. And then into Brinks is an alternative step 2. Brinks means they're physically moving it out of the bank vaults. Withdrawn from Brinks and from the CME means they probably had Brinks physically deliver their gold somewhere **UNAMBIGUOUS**.

Is this a glimpse of the future? FOA said (in my post above): "This paper gold market will be cashed out at prices far below real bullion trading…"

These MF Global gold bugs should be VERY HAPPY they are being cashed out at 72% while the physical market is still functioning. In the final front lawn dump you may be cashed out at 100% of the COMEX price at that time, but unfortunately that will be a much smaller fraction than 72% when you go to convert it to physical. My guess, it will be less than 1% at that time. So 72% is pretty good for these lucky few who got caught up in this clarion call. Why lucky? Because these MF Global customers probably won't be dumb enough to be in the group that gets screwed out of 99%! Lessons learned the hard way sometimes stick.

For those that missed it, Jeff posted part of this article from Barron's today (subscription required):

"The Silver Rush at MF Global
By ERIN E. ARVEDLUND
December 17, 2011

It's one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.

That, in essence, is what's happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global."


Cont…

FOFOA said...

2/2

"The trustee overseeing the liquidation of the failed brokerage has proposed dumping all remaining customer assets—gold, silver, cash, options, futures and commodities—into a single pool that would pay customers only 72% of the value of their holdings. In other words, while traders already may have paid the full price for delivery of specific bars of gold or silver—and hold "warehouse receipts" to prove it—they'll have to forfeit 28% of the value.

That has investors fuming. "Warehouse receipts, like gold bars, are our property, 100%," contends John Roe, a partner in BTR Trading, a Chicago futures-trading firm. He personally lost several hundred thousand dollars in investments via MF Global; his clients lost even more. "We are a unique class, and instead, the trustee is doing a radical redistribution of property," he says.

Roe and others point out that, unlike other MF Global customers, who held paper assets, those with warehouse receipts have claims on assets that still exist and can be readily identified.

But it's a burning issue for the Commodity Customer Coalition, a group that says it represents some 8,000 investors—many of them hedge funds—with exposure to MF Global. "I've issued a declaration of war," says James Koutoulas, lead attorney for the group, and CEO of Typhon Capital Management.

At stake is an unspecified, but apparently large, volume of gold and silver bars slated for delivery to traders through accounts at MF Global, which filed for bankruptcy on Oct. 31. Adding insult to the injury: Of the 28% haircut, attorney and liquidation trustee James Giddens has frozen all asset classes, meaning that traders have sat helplessly as silver prices have dropped 31% since late August, and gold has fallen 16%. To boot, the traders are still being assessed fees for storage of the commodities..."


Well, I think I'd pull my gold out AT LEAST until they settle this dispute. ;)

Sincerely,
FOFOA

J said...

I'm pulling a comment left from Turd on his own blog. I hope he doesn't mind

"I have cash!

Just got off the phone with RJ O'brien. Apparently, about 2/3 of my cash was generously "released" by the trustee last evening. My funds will be available for trading by Wednesday of next week.

As you might imagine, I'll be taking this "found money" and buying some out-of-the-money gold calls. I mean, why the heck not? I never expected to get a single penny back."

http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/3161/following-script


I hope he's the exception and the rest of the traders who got screwed actually learn from the harsh lesson they've been given.

Nickelsaver said...

Costata,

"In this mental association of value it is very difficult to hold two reference points in your mind at the same time. Having two doubles the mental stress. Likewise four and so on."

I understand this. It is the reason I have stopped buying silver in favor of gold going forward. I understand the prudence of diversification, not as an investment strategy, but as an insurance policy.

I am convinced that in any outcome, gold is the winner as you say. My hypothetical had more to do with a post transitional operation of the MoE/UoA/SoV relationship where UoA exists as a single global digital currency.

If the reference point of the UoA is without peer, and Triffin's dilemma is solved by virtue of its singular existence, then a single reference point in SoV is not needed.

Does this make sense? I will concede to its apparent unlikelihood. But in the event that it happened, you must admit...all of the justification for RPG is in the context of multiple competing currencies, and the avoidance of having one of them serve, both as a reserve currency, and as a national currency.

To expound further. If there existed only one UoA (the Euro) and one SoV (gold), we would no longer have Freegold relative to the UoA, and gold in this instance would simply sit still.

Anonymous said...

FOFOA,

Meanwhile JP Morgan moved two tonnes into COMEX eligible. Perhaps it was some of that GLD Puke?

This cannot be the same gold. As I understand it, GLD consists of 400oz bars held in London whereas COMEX gold is stored in and around New York and comes in 100oz bars. But of course, if JPM needs physical in New York, they can take some of their own and then replace it with gold from GLD in London, just to get even. Only if there is a constant flow, they will have to start shipping the stuff.

In any case, the story means that not even allocated gold is secure if the custodian is in bankruptcy!! I am not an expert in US law, but I has thought that these customers had legal title to their bars and were independent of the MF Global bankruptcy. I wonder what people in London are thinking.

Victor

Motley Fool said...

@costata

One, darn you, one. :P

@NickelSaver

I thought costata did a decent job of explaining your query, but seems it didn't stick.

Okay. So let us imagine we have a single MoE worldwide.

It is not necesarily so that it would be the singular UoA. In the short term it may be, but in the longer term the SoV would be. Remember what the functions of the UoA are; accounting measure and equitable measure of value. Even a single MoE would not be a stable measure of value over the longer term, and could thus not serve as UoA in that regard.

As to your other point, I agree that a change in our monetary system will have far reaching implications. However I look to the natural effects of such a change, as I see the monetary system as fundamental, and do not look for more random uncalled for reactions simply because other change is occurring. RPG will have a serious effect on our society, but I do not see it to be one world government with one world money and one world leader, I see it to be meritocracy.

TF

FOFOA said...

Hi Victor,

"In any case, the story means that not even allocated gold is secure if the custodian is in bankruptcy!! I am not an expert in US law, but..."

The reader I referred to as "small giant" in my GLD post relayed a story to me last week about a family that very recently came into some big money, nine figures. They decided (as a family) to put a modest percentage of that money into allocated physical gold. Since they were already with Morgan Stanley, they asked their MS money manager to present the options. What Morgan Stanley came up with (since they don't store gold themselves) was allocated bars through Scotia Mocatta stored at the Scotiabank depository near JFK airport.

(Side note: This is the same Scotiabank vault that Jim Rickards wrote this about in his book: "All private and foreign-owned gold held in custody at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York or depositories such as the HSBC and Scotiabank vaults in New York will be converted to the ownership of the U. S. Treasury… Former owners will receive suitable compensation, to be determined at a later time." Obviously I don't buy into Jim's confiscation scenario, but talk about leaving your wallet on top of your car in a busy parking lot…)

So anyway, this family had their lawyers look over the deal presented by MS and the lawyers told them that if Morgan Stanley ever filed for bankruptcy, they'd be unsecured creditors waiting in line with everyone else. So the conclusion of the story is that they didn't buy this "allocated" gold and, in fact, didn't buy any gold (yet).

Take what you want from this story. I'm relaying all the details that I received. But it seems you're right. Not even allocated gold is secure. And this comes from some attorneys who presumably are experts in US law.

Sincerely,
FOFOA

FOFOA said...

I'd like to say another public THANK YOU to everyone who donated. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!! The Christmas Fundraiser total so far is 147 donations totaling $12,874!!!

Considering I had run my checkbook down to $30 by the time I started the Fundraiser, my wife has you all to thank for her presents under the tree this year!

And don't forget, there's only one week left 'til Christmas if you still wanna get in on The Fundraiser! ;)

If you'd like to see what Christmas looks like at FOFOA's house, check out this old post from 2008. It looks almost exactly the same this year except that we lost Bear in 2010. She's in pics 2 and 4.

Sincerely,
FOFOA

costata said...

Nickelsaver,

Sorry to be in a rush. Time of year I guess.

If I understand your thought experiment correctly I think the issue you have to address is: Who is issuing that (single point of reference) currency?

How does a saver ensure that the currency will be well managed?

I think that gold in an SoV role would still be necessary under a one-world-currency regime where policy dictates a positive rate of inflation.

For reasons I can't get into right now it would be impossible to achieve a neutral position (zero inflation) and it is highly unlikely that a rate of deflation would ever be adopted as a target by a currency manager.

Anonymous said...

FOFOA,

ohh f**k! I always thought that when Americans said they had bought allocated gold and had the specific bar numbers with year and fine weights in hand, then they had legal title to these bars.

It seems that in your case, Morgan Stanley as the account manager somehow made sure they are sitting between the client and the bars. How would it work if they go directly to Scotia, purchase the bars and then hire Scotia as the custodian?

At least the custodial agreement without any money manager in between should be fine. That should basically be the same as at Brinks or ViaMat. But still, in case of major bank failures, they can probably pass a new law faster than you can get your bars out of that vault.

Chavez is the word.

Victor

@mortymer001 said...

Jeff:
"To boot, the traders are still being assessed fees for storage of the commodities."

This resembles me certain case where a client won and somebody had to pay. If you pay feel for storage then the metal should be yours.

@mortymer001 said...

Interestingly BIS releases this document:

The internal audit function in banks - consultative document
December 2, 2011

http://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs210.htm

@mortymer001 said...

Euro area sovereign crisis drives global financial
markets
December, 2011

"Bank funding and solvency move into focus
The intensification of the euro area sovereign debt crisis went hand in hand with banking sector weakness. While bank funding problems had manifested themselves throughout the year, policymakers and market participants increasingly turned their attention to issues of bank solvency. This was brought into focus by the rescue of Dexia, a Franco-Belgian bank active in public financing, and the failure of MF Global, a US broker-dealer. Both institutions lost access to funding markets as lenders grew concerned about their prospective solvency due to significant exposures to euro area sovereign debt. Credit rating agencies downgraded scores of European banks. Some rating actions were motivated by increased sovereign risk, others by an erosion of perceived government support..."

http://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1112a.pdf

Anonymous said...

This is yet another opportunity to wonder how many people are still out there who think they own gold, but in fact don't.

I also wonder whether this might, at least in part, explain why the LBMA banks have never come under serious pressure after 2001.

Victor

FOFOA said...

Where's the incentive (as a money manager) to keep yourself in between your clients and their allocated gold? Is it to secure that miniscule share of a 0.6% annual storage fee? Is allocated gold rendered useless to the people simply so that their money managers can lock in 5 basis points per year in perpetuity? On one (1) tonne of gold that would be $25K per year to the guy that sold you the gold. So maybe?

@mortymer001 said...

Matthew Elderfield: PRISM – risk based supervision in Ireland
Address by Mr Matthew Elderfield, Deputy Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland, to the ACCA (the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants), Dublin, 1 December 2011.

"...The recent Custom House Capital case is a stark and timely reminder of the importance of having an effective supervisory framework for client assets. Looking overseas, the case of MF Global appears to demonstrate this issue on a much bigger scale. Arising out of our concern following the Custom House Capital case – concern that large scale abuse of client funds could continue undetected by audit reports and our own and third party reviews – we have commissioned a Client Asset Review. Led by two of the Central Bank’s Risk Advisers this review, which is due to report early in the New Year, will make recommendations to strengthen the current audit, supervisory and regulatory framework. This review is examining the scope of the current regime, the Central Bank’s current supervisory approach, the adequacy of the existing arrangements and guidelines for independent client asset audits, the potential for the use of “skilled persons” reports, and the sufficiency of the current rules and regulations that are in place for client asset protection taking account of forthcoming changes to the MiFID and UCITS directives. We want to make sure that we have the right technical skills available to do appropriate work on client money security. But I must caution that no amount of skilled supervision or enhanced audit can absolutely guarantee that determined and deliberately concealed efforts to misuse client funds can be prevented in the future. It is important to acknowledge that..."

Enforcement
"Enforcement action is very important in the client asset area. The Central Bank has sought powers in the forthcoming Central Bank (Supervision and Enforcement) Bill to allow investment firms be put into administration so that investors interests can be protected. As I said earlier, themed investigations will be a source of enforcement action. And we are gearing up for enforcement action where required on low impact firms – we see enforcement action having a powerful deterrent effect on other low impact firms. In our Enforcement Strategy we have set out the two broad categories for enforcement actions – pre-defined and reactive. Pre-defined enforcement derives from the work priorities of the Supervisory Divisions. We will announce our 2012 enforcement priorities early in the New Year. Reactive enforcement relates to the enforcement actions deriving from other sources of information and events, both internal and external. During 2011, we opened 32 enforcement case files with the vast majority of these in the reactive category..."

http://www.bis.org/review/r111202e.pdf?frames=0

J said...

MF Global: Who Knew What, and When?

Worth a read

Jeff said...

rickards part 2:

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2011/12/18_Jim_Rickards__Part_II.html

Lisa said...

Perhaps this is the legal explanation for the ownership issue of allocated physical metals at MFGlobal??

See this
The warehouse receipts are specifically tied to idenifiable (sic) bars of gold. BUT, with the advent of electronic warehouse receipts, the new exchange rules say customers cannot "own" a warehouse receipt. Unlike before, a clearing member must now hold warehouse receipt tied gold.

There is counter-party risk in that type of arrangement, because if the broker goes belly-up, the customer is an unsecured creditor. Gold that merely shows up each month "in your statement" is not actually titled in the customer's name. The warehouse receipt, and, therefore, the gold within it, is now always titled in the name of the clearing member.


And this
All customers ought to have known that Comex exchange rules make electronic warehouse receipts unallocated, meaning that there is no direct ownership and that the customer is merely an unsecured creditor in a bankruptcy of the exchange member, in this case MF Global.

Edwardo said...

Chavez is the word, indeed. The old Marxist commandante would recognize as well as anyone a crime in the making, not to mention outright gangsterism. In the meantime, the implications of this MF Global criminality extend well beyond the purview of freegold. I do have to wonder if the temporal correlation of this development with that of the passing of the vile NDDA bill shouldn't, in effect, be taken by all concerned as the universe screaming, "WTFU." But I digress, sort of.

Here is Leon Trotsky's brilliantly insightful essay on Hitler which was penned many years before the Nazis and their leader did their worst. There does seem to be a tradition such that some of the best observers of criminality within our system operate inside of another ostensibly different system.

http://harpers.org/archive/1933/09/0018578

Edwardo said...

I should have written "our system, broadly defined" since few today would like to think of Nazi Germany as akin, except quite remotely, to the present brand of police state practiced in the U.S. However, I would argue that, if by some felicitous act of fate, Hitler and the Nazis had ceased to wield any power after 1934 that they and their ilk would not hold their richly deserved place as perhaps the most wantonly grotesque and destructive characters to ever exist.

@mortymer001 said...

The reform of the international monetary system
Speech by Lorenzo Bini Smaghi, Member of the Executive Board of the ECB,
Conference in memory of Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa,
Rome, 16 December 2011

http://www.ecb.int/press/key/date/2011/html/sp111216.en.html

costata said...

For anyone holding stocks the structure of the DTCC is worth a long, hard look. I understand that stocks are registered by them under the name of the broker with whom the client has their account.

"Allocated" stock portfolios?

A quote from an R. C. Whalen piece to add to this unambiguous ownership issue:

>> Today, in fact, it is likely that a listed company will have only one registered shareholder, appropriately named "Cede & Company", the nominee of the Depository Trust Company (DTC), which is a subsidiary of the Depository Trust and Clearing Company (DTCC), the entity whose group clears and settles almost all securities transactions entered into on organized markets in the United States. The rules of DTC require that Cede be registered as holder for all deposited securities." <<

"The Rise and Effects of the Indirect Holding System: How Corporate America Ceded its Shareholders to Intermediaries"

Theodor Baums
Andreas Cahn
Working Paper No.68
Institute for Law and Finance
Frankfurt, Germany
09/2007

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/otc-derivatives-dtcc-too-big-fail

@mortymer001 said...

I highly recommend the above speech, made a post with highlighting and comments.

"...a shift to a multi-currency system requires that the privilege of incumbency of the US dollar be removed, that the sovereign debt weaknesses in the euro area be resolved, and that the renminbi develop its full international potential..."


http://anotherfreegoldblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/reform-of-international-monetary-system.html

@mortymer001 said...

Bron´s: http://goldchat.blogspot.com/2011/12/my-thoughts-on-freegold.html

M said...

@ Nickelsaver

you asked.."How does a saver ensure that the currency will be well managed?"

There is no incentives for anyone, CB or govt to print a currency that nobody is saving in. The inflation will just show up instantly. That is why currencies in a places like Jamaica have bouts of high inflation and then they become stable. Most of these basket case economies are are already dealing with a transaction only currency and it works fine. Nobody in Jamaica needed a crash course in freegold for it to work. The savers/Jamaican giants save in a harder currency and everyone else uses the ja to transact in.

Edwardo said...

"For anyone holding stocks the structure of the DTCC is worth a long, hard look. I understand that stocks are registered by them under the name of the broker with whom the client has their account."

Costata, FWIW, Jim Sinclair has been talking about this for ages. He clearly has very serious concerns about the safety of such assets in certain instances. In the meantime, nice piece on the SDR.

costata said...

Hi Edwardo,

Yes, Jim Sinclair has been on the case for a long time. I put up this comment because I thought there should be at least one reference to the DTCC in the comments on this post.

Glad you found the SDR piece to your liking.

And a h/t to Dr. Octagon for prompting the discussion about SDRs. This time I have saved some links. So next time it comes up I'll be able to direct the person who raises the subject of SDRS to this discussion.

Cheers

Blazze said...

FOFOA, please excuse my ignorance, but when you're saying "...$IMFS collapse—was faced 32 years ago and a solution was crafted at the highest levels. That solution took 20 years to launch (at great cost, mind you) and today it stands at the ready." what solution are you talking about? Thanks,

B

M said...

HUA HIN: Thailand plans to sign a bilateral currency swap agreement this week worth 7 billion yuan ($1.1 billion) with China's central bank to help facilitate international trade between the two countries, the Bank of Thailand said on Sunday.

"This agreement will help Thai business to directly exchange yuan currency with the baht when necessary and they do not need to do it via the dollar,"

Nickelsaver said...

M,

That was actually Costata's question.

TF,

I don't think your are grasping the implications of my senario. The necessity of a single reference point in SoV is clear with competing currencies.

In suggesting a single point of reference UoE, I think I am making a very good case that in this instance the SoV COULD NOT also be a single point of reference, since it would seem to fix the price of that SoV.

Costata,

I believe the inflation question is a good one. I wonder if the assumption that a neutral position could not be maintained is valid. IDK. To be sure, the easy money crowd would not like it. As for the savers, it seems to me that there must be something to being able to draw profits from investment in goods, services, commodities, etc. without inflating the UoE. Seems to me to be a VERY western thought to equate growth with inflation.

Nickelsaver said...

Management of a single digital UoA.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the easiest one.

Total transparency!!

Every unit accounted for. Every unit available for every user to see in the digital domain.

No worry about theft. Each user is uniquely identified in the system. Their data is protected via a storage device that is integrated into their person with genetic encryption.

No worry about mismanagement, because it isn't managed. It just is. The only management is the IT personnel, ensuring the database, hardware, software and peripherals are maintained and running smoothly.

A Brave New Technological currency.

J said...

SEOUL, Dec. 19 (Yonhap) -- South Korea is seeking to create an Asian financial safety next year as part of the Chiang Mai Initiative Multilateralization (CMIM) regime to better insulate the regional economies from a worldwide financial meltdown, the country's senior economic policymaker said Monday.

Speaking at the G20 global economic cooperation conference hosted by the Korea Development Institute, Finance Minister Bahk Jae-wan said that there is support and sympathy for setting up a regional precautionary credit line (PCL).

The plan calls for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) members and South Korea, Japan and China to set up a US$120 billion emergency fund to cope with foreign exchange-related financial crisis situations that may occur in the future.
.
.
Bahk, also said that South Korea is examining measures to reduce foreign exchange market volatility for its currency, although no concrete measures will be taken immediately.


S. Korea seeks Asian financial safety net in 2012

Unknown said...

WOW, IT'S UNFOLDING JUST AS FOFOA SAID...


Investors are furious that they can't get back the gold and silver they stashed with the failed brokerage.
It's one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.
That, in essence, is what's happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-silver-rush-at-mf-global-.html

Dr. Octagon said...

I have done some more reading on SDR history and have come to a conclusion. As FOFOA posted earlier, the SDR has basically failed twice, once as a paper proxy for gold, and once as a proxy for currencies. Looking into the reason for these failures, I have come to the conclusion that the world collectively decided to store their savings in the form of US debt instead, because they had higher confidence in the United States than they did in the SDR/IMF. In both cases, because US treasuries were perceived as “safer” than the SDR, that's where the money went. I have also decided that this is still the case today. The yield on US treasuries is amazingly low, so the consensus of the majority of savers is still that US Treasuries are the safest place to store savings.

This leads me to believe that confidence in the USA is the most critical feature of the monetary system today, more so than I realized. As JR and others have pointed out, if that confidence is lost, then it's very unlikely that confidence in the US-dominated IMF would rise to take its place, including confidence in the SDR. In other words, the SDR can never rise to a prominent position in central banking or anything really, because if confidence in the USA is high, then the dollar will always be preferred over the SDR, and if confidence is the USA drops, then confidence in the USA-dominated-IMF-created-SDR will drop along with the dollar. The SDR is to the Dollar what Silver is to Gold, in the world of fiat assets.

I also believe that this confidence must be strong enough to override the Triffin dilemma.

The Euro zone turmoil lately has reenforced the position of the US Dollar as the safe harbor in a sea of world monetary uncertainty. One day the Euro zone will stabilize. It will be interesting to see what happens then. I'm still not entirely sure why confidence in the US Dollar is as high as it is, so I can't really personally predict what will cause that confidence to collapse, if anything. But I do feel more comfortable that if the day of collapsing confidence ever does come, gold is the best place to have stored your wealth.

Thanks to FOFOA, Costata, JR, and others for helping me get past FreeSDR.

Ramon said...

Although GoldMoney holds LBMA good delivery bars for storage, the company currently offers delivery of gold in sizes as small as 100g.

There is now a survey showing possible movement toward providing even smaller delivery denominations as well as easier access and additional vault locations, though nothing about alternative storage methods.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/goldmoney

pipe said...

Unkown said, "It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%."

Not only does it shrink by that amount, the remaining 75% turns into fiat, as I understand the proposed outcome. This removal of silver from segregated accounts is not theft. It is confiscation, plain and simple. All gold and silver not in private possession will be confiscated by the banking elites. This is the precedent they were looking for. Next will be any gold/silver held in any form by BK or foreclosure victims.

Now that they have established that even the flimsiest of pretexts can be used for gold/silver confiscation, nothing on public property will be safe. Perhaps even gold/silver in bank safety deposit boxes.

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