Wednesday, February 11, 2015

Confessions of an Erratic Marxist



"So, given the trends established during the past three decades,
with savings rates at 10% and growth no more than 1.5%,
[the $IMFS] is pushing us to a situation where wealth will
exceed six times GDP and the proportion of GDP that will be
going to those living off wealth (as opposed to wages) will
be at least one third. This is an unsustainable tendency that
operates like a time bomb in the foundation of [the $IMFS]."

That's from this pdf by Yanis Varoufakis, which is a good read, especially section 2 where he explains the difference between wealth and capital. This difference is the key to Yanis' rather harsh critique of Thomas Piketty's 696-page treatise on global inequality titled Capital in the Twenty-First Century.

Here are a few excerpts from section 2 of the pdf which is titled Conflating wealth with capital:

Collecting stamps is a romantic and, in many ways worthy, pursuit. It can also be quite profitable. Similarly with art collections. Or a garage full of Ferraris. Nevertheless none of these assets can be enlisted as inputs into some production process.



In short, production and growth depends on material or physical capital. And while capital is a form of wealth, a great deal of wealth is not a form of capital; i.e. it is not an input into any production process generating hitherto non-existent commodities. Thus, the growth of an economy cannot rely on wealth. It needs a particular kind of wealth: capital goods. So if we conflate capital with wealth, our theory of production will suffer to the extent that we will have wilfully misspecified a key input, mistaking all increases in wealth as increases in capital’s contribution to the production process.



When a capital good has a physical form, we more or less know its material utility since it is a technical matter to work out, e.g., how much electricity an electricity generator produces per hour per given quantities of diesel. But what is the return to an art collection that the collector is not auctioning off? Or to an owner-occupied home in which a family insists on living? Indeed, what is the rationale of treating (as Professor Piketty must do, to remain consistent with his wealth-capital conflation) the income of a stamp collector from trading in stamps as a return to capital (and not as income from work) while the super-sized bonuses of money market traders are counted not as returns to capital but, instead, as… wage income?

Naturally, Professor Piketty knows this all too well. So, why has he chosen to conflate capital and wealth? One plausible answer is that his primary concern was to present an empirical study that tracked the evolution of Western civilisation’s wealth and income distributions, so as to show that inequality is spreading like a forest fire since the 1970s… Alas, this required a demonstration that his wealth-metric is interchangeable with a reliable capital-metric; a demonstration that is impossible and, therefore, never appears in the book’s many pages.

Summing up, Professor Piketty’s capital is a metric of wealth. A hugely important metric indeed since, in any society, relative wealth determines the relative power between those who have oodles of it and the rest who do not. Adam Smith, one may recall, made his name with a magnificent book that attempted to explain “the nature and causes of the wealth of nations”. So, why did Professor Piketty not attempt to emulate the great Adam Smith, mainstream economics’ patron saint, given that he, in essence, wrote a large volume on the… wealth of nations? Why did he, instead, choose the title of another classic book, Das Kapital, that does not reflect in the slightest the contents of his own book or the method of his approach?

One explanation… is that Smith… had precisely the opposite perspective to that of Professor Piketty on the prospects of wealth inequality. In contrast, Marx’s epic narrative on capitalism’s remarkable capacity to create, simultaneously, untold wealth and unprecedented misery resonates much better with Professor Piketty’s message; namely that capitalism, left unchecked, has a ‘natural’ tendency toward creating vast, destabilising inequality.

Yanis is a complicated and clever Marxist. He deeply agrees with Piketty's radical egalitarianism, or activist opposition to the perceived inequality between the haves and the have-nots as delineated by Marx, but he doesn't like the idea of an authoritarian state taking care of the redistribution of wealth, which is why he sometimes identifies himself as a libertarian Marxist. He also thinks that the standard leftist or "social democrats'" approach to the problem of "capitalism", which he sees typified in Piketty's book, is at best flawed and weak and at worst dangerous.

Here is Yanis explaining his often-seemingly-non-Marxist-rhetoric and his deeply-Marxist roots from a keynote speech he gave at the annual radical left Subversive Festival in Croatia in 2013 (and from whence came the title of this post) titled "Confessions of an Erratic Marxist":


When I chose my PhD thesis, I intentionally concentrated on a method within which Marx was not simply wrong, he was irrelevant. When I landed my first economics lectureship in Britain, the implicit contract between my university and me was that the sort of economics I would teach our students would be as far removed from Marxism as is humanly possible. When I moved to Australia in 1988, unbeknownst to me, I was recruited by the right wing of the Sydney University Economics Department in order to keep out of the Faculty another candidate whose former supervisor was thought of (quite rightly!) as a dangerous Marxist. Later I moved to Greece where I (foolishly) became, quite officially, an advisor of George Papandreou -- the man whose government was to mediate Greece's passage to Hell a few years later. While I resigned that position in 2006, having gotten whiff of the impending disaster, I carried on teaching, at the University of Athens, quaint (and admittedly vulgar bourgeois) subjects like Game Theory and Microeconomics to a large number of Greek students, who remained touchingly oblivious to the catastrophe about to befall them. Back in 2002, well before the Global Crisis erupted, Joseph Halevi and I tried to sound a warning -- but we failed to make an impact. Even though in 2006 I did my best to warn Greek society, and anyone who would listen, of the impending disaster, I shamefully remained part of Athens' and Europe's 'polite society', not once taking to the streets.

When the Global Crisis erupted in 2008, and soon engulfed the Eurozone, I began writing articles and making frantic appearances in established and less mainstream media alike, promoting a fundamentally bourgeois agenda for saving capitalism from itself! When the going got really tough, at a personal level, in Greece, I migrated to the USA and took up an appointment at the University of Texas. To this day, I am struggling to impress the powers-that-be that they must urgently adopt specific bold policy recommendations in order to prevent an inevitable crisis from crushing capitalism. In summary, not one of my academic publications can be thought of as explicitly Marxist, while my energies are channeled into preventing capitalism's collapse. Nonetheless, all along, from my student days in Britain to this very day, the only way I could make sense of the world we live in is through the methodological 'eyes' of Karl Marx. In itself, this 'fact' renders me a theoretical Marxist. Moreover, I feel Marxism in my bones every time I am engaged in any form of intellectual pursuit: from discussing the Arab Spring to debating the intricacies of Art with my artist partner. Furthermore, a democratic, libertarian, socialist future is the only future that I would be willing to fight for. A most peculiar Marxist no doubt, but a Marxist nevertheless.

Piketty's book, more than just being a weighty doorstop, is about the problem of inequality and how capitalism only makes it worse. The haves have way too much and are gaining more each day while the have-nots have less and less as each day passes. It contains an academic and mathematical "proof" of his thesis, plus empirical data to back it up, which is that capitalism leads to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer at a rate where the return on wealth (the risk-free income received from savings, investments, wealth and capital without doing any work and without touching the principle) amounts to a third of GDP and the total liquidation value of that wealth grows to six times GDP.

In other words, one third of all of the productive output of the global labor force goes to service the consumption of the non-working capitalists, and the remaining two-thirds goes back to the labor force. Furthermore, since wealth can be inherited and passed on from generation to generation, as long as the wealthy save a portion of their labor-free income at a higher rate than the poor save a portion of their labor wages, the wealth gap grows larger and larger.

Yanis thinks Picketty did a terrible job proving his thesis. From section 5 titled Why, oh why?:


So, why? Why base such a weighty treatise, as Capital in the Twenty-First Century clearly is, on shaky theoretical foundations? If I were allowed to speculate on this question, I would be tempted to outline two reasons. One is expediency. Professor Piketty’s analysis allowed him to come up with some very catchy numbers; e.g. the ‘result’ that when the rate of return to wealth is at its historic average of around 5%, there is a tendency for wealth to grow to more than six times the level of GDP and for income accruing to wealth to converge to one third of GDP (see note 9). This is the stuff that contributes to headlines that journalists and the wider public are eager to consume. But to come up with these numbers, and then argue that they are reflected in the empirical data, the author had to ‘close’ his model; he had somehow to snatch determinacy from the jaws of radical indeterminacy. And if this requires incorrigible assumptions that are ill equipped to sustain the cold light of critical analysis, one may be tempted to assume that the wider public will never know or care. Catchy numbers, in combination with excellent marketing, are bound to over-rule any objections like the ones appearing in this journal in general and in the present paper in particular.

Piketty’s policy recommendation for stemming "inequality’s triumphant march" is a global wealth tax, which Yanis doesn't like. While he agrees with Piketty's thesis in spirit, he's tired of leftists making weak arguments and policy recommentations which are easily defeated by smart people on the right. From the conclusion (sect. 7):


Consider what the implementation of this global wealth tax would mean:

Returning to the long-suffering Eurozone, let us pay a visit to one of the thousands of Irish families whose members remain unemployed, or terribly under-paid and under-employed, but whose house has ‘managed’ to escape the travails of negative equity. According to Professor Piketty, these wretched people should now be paying a new wealth tax on the remaining equity of their homes, in addition to their remaining mortgage repayments. Independently of their income streams!

Taking our leave from these suffering families, whom Professor Piketty’s wealth tax would burden further, let us now turn to a Greek industrialist struggling to survive the twin assaults from non-existent demand and from the severe credit crunch. Let us suppose that her capital stock has not lost all of its value yet. Well, soon after Professor Piketty’s policy is enacted, it most certainly will, as she must now cough up a wealth tax that is to be paid from a non-existent income stream.

How long will it take, dear reader, before committed libertarians, who believe that wealth and income inequality is not only fine but also an inevitable repercussion of liberty-at-work, latch on to the above repercussions of Professor Piketty’s policy proposals? Why would they hesitate before blowing his analysis and recommended policies out of the proverbial water, castigating them as sloppy theorising leading to policies that simultaneously (a) worsen a bad set of socio-economic circumstances and (b) threaten basic liberties and rights?



Moving on to the realm of political philosophy, some years back I expressed the view that well-meaning proponents of distributive justice and equality were perhaps egalitarianism’s greatest threat…

Arguing from the perspective of a radical egalitarian, I conceded that the libertarians had the better tunes. That their focus on the justice of the process generating values and what distributes them (i.e. their dedication to procedural theories of justice) was significantly more interesting, useful and, indeed, progressive than the pseudo-egalitarian dedication to end-state, distributive, theories of justice. That the libertarians’ readiness to separate ‘good’ from ‘bad’ inequality, rather than to treat inequality as a single, uni-dimensional metric, held more promise to those who wished to understand the vagaries, and instability, of capitalism than the social democrats’ protestations that income and wealth outcomes were too unequal. That those interested in reinvigorating a pragmatic, radical egalitarianism should abandon static notions, and simple metrics, of equality.

Reading Capital in the Twenty-First Century reminded me of how the cause of egalitarianism is often undermined by its most famous, mainstream proponents. John Rawls… did untold damage to the egalitarian ‘cause’ by offering a static theory of justice that crumbled the moment a talented libertarian took a shot at it. Professor Piketty’s book will, I am convinced, prove even easier prey for today’s, or tomorrow’s, equivalent of Robert Nozick. And when this happens, the multitude that are now celebrating Capital in the Twenty-First Century as a staunch ally in the war against inequality will run for cover.

Down at the bottom of this post you'll find the video of Yanis' keynote address (with the same title as this post) to a room full of angry Marxists who, you'll learn during the Q&A, are skeptical that Yanis is really one of them. It's long like the last one, and also like the last one the first half is the speech and the last half is the Q&A, but I think you'll really enjoy this video just like the last one.

In it, you'll learn that Yanis despises economics, and he views himself as someone who has used his own personal sacrifice of half of his life spent learning economics and becoming a professor to gain entry into the top level of economic dialogue (e.g., being invited to speak to central bankers, right-wing politicians and MSM news outlets like Bloomberg) in a subversive way, kind of like a Marxist spy who has withheld his true agenda.

He says that, because some of his statements seem so harsh on the surface, he is always getting contacted by right wingers "and Ron Paul types" who think he's like them.

These Marxists hate "capitalism", or actually they hate what they think is capitalism and what they refer to as capitalism which is really just the ridiculous $IMFS which we hate as well, albeit for slightly different ideological reasons. So in a way, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing comes into play here a bit in that Yanis and I both think the same thing about the $IMFS—that it is imploding—only he calls it capitalism.

In the video, he says repeatedly that he wants to save capitalism from itself, and what he means is that he wants to save the world and the international monetary system from falling into a global depression worse than the 1930s, caused by the collapse of the $IMFS/capitalism. As we often say about people like this, he's so close yet so far away.

Here's a line from Yanis in the video below:


"Think about capitalism… it is a metaphorical production line that produces two things simultaneously: immense wealth and unprecedented poverty. "

You see, his complaint about capitalism is the same as my complaint about the $IMFS. When savers save in debt, it leads to not only way too much debt, but also a conflict of interests between the debtors and the savers.

I want to you spend a little bit of time thinking about the many ways in which Yanis' "capitalism" and my "$IMFS" are the same thing. Probably the biggest problem with the $IMFS over the last couple of decades, and a problem which led directly to the financial crisis in 2008 when Yanis says the "surplus recycling mechanism" died, is the securitization of debt by the banks.

They did this because of overwhelming demand for those securities from savers like the PBoC, German pension funds, and just about everyone else for that matter. It was not because the banks wanted to increase their loan books that they drove lending standards into the gutter creating Subprime and all kinds of other problems. It was because they could offload that risk, sell it to someone else, and make a tidy commission in the process.

With that in mind, here's a short anecdote from another presentation Yanis gave in 2013, this one titled The Dirty War for Europe’s Integrity and Soul. Yanis began his presentation like this, "allow me to begin with several ‘true stories’ that will, hopefully, transport you into the Europe that I inhabit. Each of my tales will come with a short title." The tales had titles like "Error", "Denial", "Impotence", "Despotism", "Ignorance", "Wickedness" and "Serpent DNA", which should give you an idea of the tone.

This was one of the shortest, and it was titled "Frenzy":


Franz, not his real name, worked for a major German bank for twenty-five years. In 2011 he confided to me that the Euro’s ‘good’ years, before 2008, had been the worst of his life. From 1999 to 2008 the pressure from his bank’s Frankfurt HQ on executives like him was relentless. Before the Euro, his job entailed flying around European capitals, assessing the credit worthiness of governments, local authorities, utilities, developers, local banks, large businesses; playing hard to get with them, and eventually signing off on loans that made sense to him. However, once the Euro was established the Frenzy began in earnest. HQ was pressurizing him incessantly to lend, lend, lend. When he warned them that increased lending would mean subprime loans to iffy customers, they couldn’t care less. It was all about securing a higher share of the Euro market than other banks – French banks in particular – who were also on a lending spree. And since total lending effected was linked to his and his bosses’ bonuses, Franz and his colleagues were sent to Dublin, to Madrid, to Athens, to every nook and cranny with a hitherto low level of indebtedness. Their mission? To increase it. “I lived the life of a predator lender”, he added.

Notice the correlation/causation fallacy. Because the predatory lending began around the same time as the euro, causation is lumped onto the euro. But this same phenomenon was happening on Wall Street and Main Street USA as well, perhaps even more so. The new single currency in Europe no doubt made it easier for the German banks to jump borders, but it was an $IMFS game nonetheless. Remember it was Goldman Sachs that reportedly taught the Greek government how to really take advantage of the new euro by ramping up its spending and its debt in the early years. Was that caused by the euro, capitalism, or the $IMFS?

This is Yanis' view of capitalism's drive—predatory lending—which, as I argue, is simply the result of extra demand from the Savers (a group distinct from—and much larger than—professional investors, speculators and traders) for more debt to save. Physical assets rise in value as more Savers save in them, but debt must rise in volume in order to accommodate a growth in savings. One increases the debt level while lowering interest rates and lending standards leading to all kinds of problems in the real economy, and the other does not.

Of course professional investors, speculators and traders will always invest, speculate and trade in debt and equity ownership in other people's businesses. But, in the future explored on this blog, they will have to be sharp to pick the winners, and they will be competing against the banks which can always underbid them for the best borrowers, so risk will be ever present for private money that wants to generate a return.

Banks don't care about the occasional socialization which eats away at the currency's real value because their nominal balance sheets don't change with the currency. If the currency devalues, then their assets and liabilities devalue simultaneously and their net position stays the same. And if Savers saved in real physical wealth assets rather than debt and currency, they wouldn't care either.

Just imagine if all debt was held by banks. Now imagine that only the best debt is held by banks, and the more risky debt is held by private money chasing a yield. That's how I imagine the future will be. Just because the Savers stop recycling their surpluses to the Debtors does not necessarily mean a credit crunch. Banks can theoretically issue all debt up to the point at which their CB will no longer monetize that debt which goes bad, and the investors, speculators and traders can tempt fate with the rest.

Here's a simple fact which hasn't been discussed a whole lot. We have been brought up with the premise that if we can somehow obtain a large enough fortune, then we can sit back and live off the interest risk-free without ever touching the principle, pass that principle on to our children and they can do the same into perpetuity. This is a false premise, even if it has worked for the last 40 years.

Yes, you can put your money to work and, if you are successful, live off of only the yield while growing or not touching the principle. But you can't do so risk-free, and that's where millions of Savers have been misled. In reality, you save during your working years, and later live off of those savings by running them down. There's no such thing as a risk free return on capital, an old lesson that old money knows all too well, and the rest of us will learn soon enough.

For savings to work properly like this, over long periods of time, requires a salient focal point physical wealth asset with a long history of being used for that purpose. That is not stamp collecting, fine art, or even a garage full of Ferraris. It is gold, not as part of the monetary system, but as a real, physical wealth asset just like Yanis used stamps, art and Ferraris to explain.

In the speech below, Yanis explains one of his subversive tactics which he learned from Marx. Marx called it immanent criticism, which is where, rather than attacking your enemy's premises, you accept them as a given for the sake of argument, and then show your enemy that he is failing his own principles. I wonder if anyone has tried this tactic on Yanis yet. ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA


507 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 507   Newer›   Newest»
ampmfix said...

I just did, that is the thought experiment I posted. But I must be even dumber than I thought, since it didn't elicit much interest.. I must be miles below your level! no chance for me... I should have studied a Master of Science in Engineering, become a professional guitar player, become a master chess player and a cosmologist, martial artist, learn 4 languages, etc...

I am an idiot, that is why I read on... Maybe one day I will learn something...

Meanwhile, I will read all of you closely, but talking to a wall is too tiresome at my age. Hasta luego amigos.

queckshep said...

ampmfix, don't take everything so personal. I think jojo was merely inviting you to convey your point of view so we can discuss it in a constructive manner. To me feedback is extremely valuable, positive or otherwise, it offers different perspectives and allows faster results.

Unknown said...

Candarob. I would argue deflation could be a solution. We just don't want to face the pain going through the deflation treatment. i.e. for deflation to work we need to see defaults to bring down debt levels. I accept the freegold premise on the fact that politicians always prefer inflation to any other bitter medicine and therefore won't voluntarily abandon fiat money At the same time there is a need for a store of value and potentially a fairer trade exchange to satisfy the exporter. Enter gold.....or worst case a temporary solution based on SDR. Either way gold can be set free simply by breaking the paper markets. The question then is just if gold will purely be a store of value or if it will also form part of trade settlements.

Coach Joe said...

Regarding the erratic Marxist, the main thrust of his argument appears to rest upon the necessity of an effective recycling mechanism for rebalancing and maintaining stable growth rates across economic regions. Albeit flawed for several reasons, he points to the post war Bretton Woods period thru 1971, and the post international gold standard period from 1971-2008 as examples of successful recycling efforts gone bad via flawed constructs, misuse, and morally hazardous incentives.

Insofar as his current stance surrounding the intractable predicament in which Greece currently holds center stage, I believe he it is rational to pursue the course of attempting to erect a similar mechanism to temporarily save the Euro-Zone however, I do not agree with the alluded endgame premise, which one can only conclude would consist of adopting a Keynes’s-like “bancor” or global currency mechanism governed presumably by some unaccountable global governance mechanism (SDR’s?) to keep the global economy in balance thereafter.

I have read through all of FOFA’s materials some years ago, and have recently begun to revisit the works. In attempt to cut to the chase, I am curious if any of those so enlightened, relative to the said erratic Marxist’s propositions, view the mechanics of free-gold as effectively supplying the sustainable recycling mechanism Yanis espouses as essential, and if so, could it do so without the edifice of an unaccountable global governance structure to manage it.

If not, does free-gold hold to the tenets of another economic theory that does not require the said recycling mechanism. Thanks in advance for the ever inspiring discourse.

Sam said...

Good question Joseph. Yanis has identified the macro monetary problems of the world quiet well, he just uses different words to describe some of the same stuff we talk about on this blog. He calls the dollar reserve system "capitalism" and the act of foreign structural support a "recycling mechanism". His solution "libertarian marxism", like several good economic philosophies, would work if it wasn't for human nature. Freegold (free floating currency exchange rates with gold revalued, removed from the monetary system, and unencumbered by paper proxies) also has the advantage of being in the works now for at least 40 years.

Freegold will not need a "recycling mechanism" because automatic adjustment mechanisms will ensure that trade is balanced.

Reality Show said...

ampmfix, maybe the giants in your thought experiment are thinking like ants.

It was one of those lovely lightbulb moments once I could see how any revaluation of gold was largely irrelevant to the wealthiest private holders. It is gold's timeless ability to buy currency that is of value to them, not the arbitrary value of any currency priced in gold. Gold is not bought to make money but to have money, in any situation, at any point in the future. Imagine that, the largest holders of gold don't care what it's worth. Ha! Still makes me smile.

So if they have no personal financial incentive to promote FG, and I presume don't want to help crash the system that they still benefit from, it seems perfectly reasonable that anyone with an influential media presence would keep quiet about gold's true utility.

Motley Fool said...

ampmfix

Your question in essence was if giants knew about freegold, would they pull the trigger to avoid ww3.

The answer is maybe.

Giants tend to profit in war and peace time.

At present though we are still a ways off from ww3 starting, despite media hype, so it's kinda irrelevant.

TF

M said...

@ Reality show

"So if they have no personal financial incentive to promote FG, and I presume don't want to help crash the system that they still benefit from, it seems perfectly reasonable that anyone with an influential media presence would keep quiet about gold's true utility. "

I don't buy these kinds of comments.

After 2008, the Fed and the rest of the CBs have been making it up as they go along. Giants know this. Nobody is really in control. The giants know just as well as anyone else that isn't an academic, that negative interest rates and open ended QE is total lunacy. The giants are winging it too. They don't know what is going to happen or how to best prepare. They can guess. Just like we can.. The only ones who think they know what they are doing are the academics.

Anonymous said...

ampmfix said...
a flaw: maybe the Giants don't want to force it, it has to happen by "spontaneous generation" (maybe another condition to avoid war), which would make FG subject to the odds, like a lottery... But no, I know now, it has to be made to look like spontaneous, but has to be directed, at least one switch has to be thrown manually...

Perhaps, the 1% who constitute the Giants get a lot back in the form of rent from the current system. They perhaps do not see the need to force it on. The sovereigns who could also be considered as giants, do not want to take on the USA. They do not want to be cornered like they are trying to corner Russia.

The rent seeking is the problem. Freegold eliminates the need for an ant to constantly submit to the need to pay rent. He can proverbially get out of the loop.

One Bad Adder said...

Reality Show: - That's the ticket!

Tommy2Tone said...

ampmfix,

I meant no harm. Queckshep hit the nail on the head. Don't be so hard on yourself either, no one is claiming intelligence superiority here.
To paraphrase Jack Dawson, it seems like just the other day I was reading Tfmetalsreport, ZH, Brother John, et all, and now here I am on the grandest financial blog in the world having discussions with you fine people.

tEON said...

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2015/02/20150220_dutch.jpg

Muad'Grumps said...

RPG,

Nobody's getting out the loop. Rent-seeking will always be here and saving in gold will offer no refuge. Notice how some of this crowd have been moaning about opportunity costs? That's the problem with gold.No yield. No income. No guarantee of capital preservation. In fact you may lose capital big time sitting in gold.

Tell me here freegolders that after the transition to the new debt-purged system none of you are going to save in currency when yields are 5% and higher. That you will continue to squirrel away your savings into gold. I don't thinks so. I think you all are a bunch of front-running phonies. You'll be dumping that gold for cash socking it away into CDs and muni bonds getting some of that fine bootylicious interest so as not to chip away at principal. The smart ones will be swapping gold for equities and RE for about 10-15 years then taking money off the table moving back into gold. And guess what? Those will be the guys who will have more gold in the end than the diehard "Oh, I'm a saver, not a speculator" stay-behinds of this cult--The Sisterhood of the Weakest-Handed Financial Pantywaists.

Muad'Grumps said...

My my my

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/20/euro-architect-says-greece-should-quit-currency/

queckshep said...

Flat shoe,
Maybe you should accept the fact that not everyone is a paper yield chasing maniac. I for one, would really like to invest in a productive activity, something that actually advances humanity. Such poor remarks, lack of self-creativity and labeling people because they see things differently, makes me realize in what a sick parasitic world we currently live in. Like it's normal that all of us should focus 100% on 'having', 'MOAR' and then some. Just 'being' and to 'give' once in a while gives a lot more satisfaction.

Muad'Grumps said...

Investing in a productive activity earns you a yield. Nothing is wrong with a yield. It's what gets people out of bed.

ampmfix said...

Thanks all. It's good to shake out once in a while. RS, your lightbulb moment reminded me of a similar one but I guess less intense or I would have remembered it. Dementia I tell you! Soon I will even forget where I had my boating accident. The kids are in for some fun!

Tommy2Tone said...

Yea, and saving my surplus is what allows me to stay in bed and sleep in.
You yield whores can chase and chase all you want, I prefer to stay out of it.

Muad'Grumps said...

Yeah, but what you believe in-- a perfect utopian savings vehicle-- doesn't exist. No wonder you all get moist about Yanis.

Indenture said...

"In fact you may lose capital big time sitting in gold." This is the statement of someone who needs to 'absorb the blog'.

"Tell me here freegolders that after the transition to the new debt-purged system none of you are going to save in currency when yields are 5% and higher." As an absolute I can easily say 'Not One Freegolder will save in currency! It is an impossibility, as a Freegolder, to save in anything but physical gold. We will invest in currency, chasing yield if that is our goal, but we would never, ever, EVER consider our savings as anything but physical gold.

You can invest or save, but you can't do both at the same time with the same quantity of purchasing power. Your extra $1000 can be put into savings when you exchange your currency for physical gold, or it can be invested when you exchange your currency something producing yield. The question is where do you want your extra $1000 when the $IMFS dies? After the new dollar rises from the ashes many of us (if not all) will sell some of our gold for currency so we can chase yield (invest) but may of us (if not all) will continue to save some of our purchasing power in gold.

Flat Shoe... you sound like an ill tempered person, while it has been my experience that those who take the time to understand Freegold come across as relaxed and compassionate. You appear angry that there are humans who want nothing more than to maintain purchasing power, maintain their savings and you emphatically state that everyone is greedy and basically that there are never enough yachts to waterski behind.

Pity...

Tommy2Tone said...

FSL, per your last comment I must apologize. It's clear now you don't know a thing about freegold.
It's clear you don't understand that freegold is the future so of course "a perfect utopian savings vehicle-- doesn't exist. " LDO!!!

I didn't realize you were learning disabled. I try to only harass trolls or troll wannabe's and I mistakenly thought you were a wannabe but now I realize you are just not very smart.

I apologize.

Muad'Grumps said...

There really is no such thing as saving as you guys imagine. Even sitting in gold is investing. Sitting in a CD is investing in currency. There is no perfect savings vehicle. But there is the long wave.

Phat Repat said...

You yield whores can chase and chase all you want, I prefer to stay out of it.

Such vitriol; wrath hath no fury like a spec scorned?

Muad'Grumps said...

Many utopians have tried to stop history and deny human nature.

Indenture said...

What Flat Shoe meant to say is "There really is no such thing as saving as you guys imagine. Even sitting in gold is investing. CURRENTLY" He mistakenly left off the word 'currently' because he doesn't understand the role of physical gold after transition.

If anyone else is having trouble with the concept of Freegold I would be more than happy to point you towards a few FOFOA posts that could help in your progression.

KnallGold said...

"You might never wanna sell your Gold again!"

This line from FOA kept me thinking long...

Tommy2Tone said...

Haha, Phat are you thinking me=trader??? That's funny.
No tarder here, just someone very risk averse who likes to retain any surplus earned.
No vitriol either, it's just that yield chasing is not for me. Saving is, and in FG, everyone will actually be able to do that.
In FG, yield whores can still pursue that but that pool will be a lot smaller.



Coach Joe said...

Sam: Thanks for your insights. I have some additional thoughts and some follow up questions.

Relative to the surplus recycling mechanism erected at Bretton Woods, Yanis conveyed that instead of adopting a balanced mechanized approach to investing said surpluses into deficit regions, the U.S insisted upon autonomy in deciding precisely how and to whom it would reinvest said surpluses.

In reviewing some documentation from FOFA on the matter of Free-Gold acting as a natural recycling mechanism of sorts, I found the passage below, which appears to have Yanis’ surplus recycling mechanism performing in reverse…


“Freegold acts like a sponge, absorbing surplus value in any given zone, and transferring it between zones through arbitrage, out of deficit zones (net value consumers) and into surplus zones (net value producers). All sovereign entities, whether individual, state, or nation, interact with this system in the same way, only on different scales (micro/macrocosm). They may have different motivations for individual transactions when storing value in or retrieving value from Freegold, but the mechanism they use will be the same - the purchase or sale of unencumbered gold in a floating free market.”


In the above construct, and in direct contrast to the mechanism described by Yanis, (unless I’ve got it backward) it appears that Free-Gold would only serve to further concentrate stores of value and wealth toward surplus regions - leaving deficit regions to therefore stagnate or spiral into prolonged periods of decline.

I can only assume that such a construct would only serve to foster further irreconcilable imbalances and Darwinian-type inequalities – much like the current paradigm.

I would ask that those here with greater wisdom surrounding the construct and inherent axiomatic incentive characteristics derived from a Free-Gold system to kindly clarify/correct the assumptions above.

My second question is one which asks for additional clarifications/corrections on the construct and net effects of Free-Gold, and is a basic follow-on to the first with regard to the following paragraph also extracted from the FOFA archives which stated:


“The current monetary system is completely inequitable, as can be seen in the continual movement of wealth (stored value) to the wealthiest .01% of individuals, and away from the poorest. This discrepancy has never been greater, and continues to grow. Value is liberated from its creators and spirited away through the continual depreciation of the savings medium. “


Would not a system of Free-Gold, which via a naturally occurring arbitrage mechanism recycles surplus wealth to the regions of the most successful producers, in the end, foster a similarly inequitable system?

I would also ask that someone step up to articulate the tenets and incentives born from an automatic adjustment mechanism (arbitrage) in a Free-Gold system, and explain how such a natural, non-aggressive mechanism will ensure that trade is generally balanced and sustainable.

Perhaps I am struggling to differentiate the mechanics of a Free-Gold as it pertains to the individual vs. the sustainability of the general economic system as a whole.

The above paragraph from FOFA concludes to state that:


“A Freegold Standard is a return to a fully equitable system, where the net value producer keeps the unconsumed fruits of their labour until such time as they wish to consume them, or give them away. It does not allow the government to sequester privately saved value any longer, to be spent arbitrarily by those not attributed with its creation. A great deal of certainty is found by all users of such a system.”


In addition to simple consumption or charitable distribution thereof, is there not a third option of investment that seeks a return on the privately saved values as described?

Again, thanks in advance toward helping better my understanding.

Tommy2Tone said...

Hi Joseph,

Have you read the series from August 2013 by fofOa called My Candid View (pts 1-10 i think)?

Just curious, what posts have you read ...maybe we can point you to some of the more pertinent ones if you haven't read them yet??

Muad'Grumps said...

Let's do a thought experiment. After the transition how do you see gold performing? Will the USD price rise more per annum than the yield than the yield on a 5 year note? And before you respond think of the ramifications on the investing universe if gold rises more than the yield on the benchmark debt consistently.

Motley Fool said...

FSL

You realize that only saving aka underconsumption allows investment - whether directly or via appropriation through the currency mechanism?

The difference is simply rational investment aka the ability to not invest vs yield chasing forced by the $imfs.

Indenture said...

Joseph: Have you read 'Greece Is The Word'?
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/02/greece-is-word.html

Motley Fool said...

Joseph Russo

I can see how that might be confusing. You have it backwards. I hope someone is nice enough to link a post where fofoa explained the mechanism in detail. I can't recall which off the top of my head.

Coach Joe said...

Hi Jojo - I got those passages from "blondie." I will search for those you referenced by fofa... Thanks

Indenture said...

Flat Shoe: After the death of the $IMFS gold will rise in price (value) in direct relationship to each currency zones inflation. If a currency zone has an inflation rate of 3%, and they offer a five year note at 5% then the choice between saving and investing is the risk reward of 2%.

If a currency zone has an inflation rate of 10% and offers a five year note at 5% then the currency zone is imaginary. No currency zone will offer 'notes' for less than that zone's inflation rate.

Coach Joe said...

Thanks Indenture & Motley Fool - will read "Greece is the Word"... it would also be great to view the links where I can identify just how I got it backwards. Thanks again...

Knotty Pine said...

@Joseph Russo, You might try Glimpsing The Hereafter 2. There are 3 parts to it and the third is about gold's true function in a freegold system.

Muad'Grumps said...

Indenture,

You're trapped in QToM. Hopelessly trapped. Flatlanders the lot of you.

Roacheforque said...

The concept of "investing in gold" is a triumph of the western mindset and a byproduct of its ultimate propaganda campaign.
Anyone grasping the crux of FREEGOLD understands that this is an oxymoron. And yet even the most ardent sovereign PGA's (e.g. China, Russia) use the reference. They also quote the funding of their parallel IMF, World Bank, EU and trade agreement (values) in dollar terms (either that or it gets translated that way, but I suspect a little of both).
It is truly the hallmark of a debt-based "wealth paradigm" to see ALL financial activity, even all economic activity in terms of "investing", including of all things "saving" or the activity of "real wealth accumulation".
To rephrase a popular notion on this blog, "If one can only see success in terms of INVESTING, one cannot see success at all."

Indenture said...

QToM? I'm not familiar with that acronym.

Indenture said...

Joseph: I don't know which of FOFOA's pieces you have read but here is a list of what many of us consider to be the required reading for understanding Freegold.

https://matrixsentry.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/jr_s-suggested-rpg-freegold-reading-list2.pdf

Toss in:
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2012/04/peak-exorbitant-privilege.html

and you can curl up with your ipad for a leisurely read

Muad'Grumps said...

Quantity Theory of Money...the root of all goldbug stupidity and why they will always be wrong.

Coach Joe said...

Thanks @knottypine, I shall indeed take a glimpse into the hereafter-2....

Canadarob said...

Genius Realityshow: "It is gold's timeless ability to buy currency that is of value to them, not the arbitrary value of any currency priced in gold. Gold is not bought to make money but to have money, in any situation, at any point in the future."

Clueless Farter: "Even sitting in gold is investing"

Michael dV said...

Mr Orange
Yes, I knew he felt comfortable in fulfilling his fiduciary duties by holding gold for UT but it is not what he focuses on in his investing.
He is perhaps full on FG but is unsure of the timing and enjoys playing the game while the tables are still open.
If he really has that UTx gold he will be a Texas hero the stature of Huston and Austin themselves.

Michael dV said...

I would remind some of our more sensitive posters: no one is even remotely obligated to respond to anyone else's post even if it directed to them.
This is mostly a group of mature (and wway mature) folks with lots of real promises to keep. If some one fields a question it is because the issue interested them or they felt particularly helpful at that moment.
Those who have been around a bit have seen most questions a few times and may be wondering why the person asking hadn't read the comments last month.

Anand Srivastava said...

Indenture
FSL is a creationist. He believes that value of money is created by divine intervention. He doesn't believe in the evolutionary forces of the market in ascertaining value of money aka the quantity theory of money.

The Jackalope said...

The value of money is derived from anothers willingness to accept it as payment for goods and services, nothing more.

Anand Srivastava said...

The value of money is derived from another's willingness to accept it as payment for goods and services. Which depends on the amount of money the buyer has. The said money which is available to the buyer is called to be in the market. This is called the quantity theory of money.

MSC said...

@Ampfix, The financial system makes disproportionate amounts of money (for those at the top) by blowing bubbles... with the wealthy and informed exiting before they burst.

And the dollar is the bubble of all bubbles, millions of times bigger and more far reaching than anything before. And it is so easy to inflate.. No one benefiting wants it to burst until it is inflated more than anyone ever thinks is possible. And the safety net is freegold. The game has been planned for decades (way before the birth of the Euro), it won't end quickly. They planned it well too - it is made to look like it is all happening spontaneously. It isn't. All imho of course.

Indenture said...

"The value of money is derived from anothers willingness to accept it as payment for goods and services, nothing more."

I disagree. The value of money (currency) is derived from the willingness of another to accept it as payment for gold.

To paraphrase Ender, "It is good to see gold being traded for currency. This proves the currency still functions."

Phat Repat said...

jojo
"No tarder here, just someone very risk averse who likes to retain any surplus earned."
"In FG, yield whores can still pursue that but that pool will be a lot smaller."

To each their own, but you sound like a victim and perhaps even intellectually lazy.

I've reflected on the aftermath of FG and I'm starting to get the comment about "really NOT liking" the next system. If you consider the removal of ExPriv currently enjoyed by the 3rd world, just what kind of future will they have? And who will make charitable contributions for schools, hospitals, provide emergency response (natural disasters, health threats, etc...)? Certainly NOT the US. The UN? Europe? Asia? No. Then whom? Given what I have acquired over the years, I (or my heirs) would have a tremendous windfall should FG come to pass. But will that really be worth it if we become a harder less caring or capable nation as a result?

I know in my heart of hearts that giving stuff away doesn't necessarily enrich ones life. At the same time, we've gone so far down this rabbit hole that the human costs in pain and suffering in transition would be immense. And that keeps me up at night and leads me to desire a continued delay of FG until this has been given the rigorous attention a just and polite society requires.

Tommy2Tone said...

Phat,
I am definitely not a victim. I own all my choices.

Can you explain how you see me being intellectually lazy?

And lastly, are you saying Exorbitant Privilege is a benefit enjoyed by the 3rd world?

Once FG arrives, I see it as leveling the playing field across the whole globe- no ex priv for anyone. I see it as attaining (finally, after 1000's years) balance. And from this balance I see far more good coming than the "good" it appears to me you attribute to the malinvestment that is rampantly produced by $IMF and which some does indeed make it's way to third world countries. You seem to want them to need our system, to be dependent on it versus in FG when each person or sovereign is allowed to finally pursue their own means.

What about the human costs in pain and suffering due SOLEY to the $IMF??? You should visit eastern Ukraine and ask them how good that ex priv is for them.

Canadarob said...

MCs,
I totally agree. That's the part I'm really excited to see. The part where the elites come up with a story that has "forced them to reprice gold". Even though it has been in the cards for years. They will need something that the public will buy. Will it be a possible Russian invasion? And we need to raise golds price to keep Putin happy?
Or have these terribly cold winters driven the us economy through the floor? Maybe the magic world economy pushed the price of oil so low that the world has agreed to raise the gold price for everyones benefit.

There will be an excuse. Because I can't see them telling the world that they knew this was coming for decades.

Canadarob said...

Sorry, *MSC.

Canadarob said...

Also, I agree with Jojo. Finally things will be balanced. Yes it will come at a cost. But there is also a great cost to continue the system.
I don't really care for the whole "if you hated the last one you will hate the new one"
I must be missing something because isn't there billions of people on the nonprivilaged side of the $ims system that currently hate the system but will love the new one. Where they can finally get 12 hours worth of purchasing power from 12 hours of work.

Indenture said...

Canadarob: "...the elites come up with a story that has "forced them to reprice gold""

The headlines of the world news papers are not going to have the word GOLD in them. The Headlines will have the words DOLLAR and COLLAPSE. The pleebs of the world will not care about the price of gold, they will be screaming about the loss of their dollar denominated savings and retirements. The elites will have to come up with a story as to why the dollar died, not why gold has been repriced. The repricing of gold is secondary.

I am interested in what the 'Dollar Collapse' story will be and who will be blamed.

Mr orange said...

at indenture,
Everything is fine in the United States we have low unemployment, no inflation stacks are at an all time high and the fed ended qe back in the fall, there will be no blaming the United States or the dollar on what is coming,,,,,,,with fofoa teaching us the IMF is broke and kyle bass backing that statement up as he explains the IMF is not designed for a major country to fail. It's easy to see it's going to be all Japan's fault, and bernanke told us so as well in his japan not going to happen here speech. Why will this all be blamed on japan because the allowed a 20 year buildup of deflation.....u see when the jgb market blows up I think there will be lots of money trying to find a home real quick, Greece is the fuse japan is the bomb and I've noticed JGBS have doubled in the last month,,,,remember kyle bass taught us it happens in one second,,,,,boop,,,,and it's all over,,,,,,,you will see nothing about a dollar collapse maybe in Russia

One Bad Adder said...

I personally like the Gold / God metaphor ...whereby the current System has been born (c 1970), lived, and is now in it's death-throes ie: it's parallelling human existence.
Just as humanity entertains the notion of a "life-after-death"(overseen by a God above and beyond mere mortality), so too does this current mere-mortal man-made monetary / fiscal System.
On that basis, it's hard to imagine FreeGold emerging in anything but a Phoenix-from-the-Ashes scenario methinks.

M said...

@ Phat

"ve reflected on the aftermath of FG and I'm starting to get the comment about "really NOT liking" the next system. If you consider the removal of ExPriv currently enjoyed by the 3rd world, just what kind of future will they have?"

Are you serious ? Nobody has suffered more under Expriv then the 3rd world.

Phat Repat said...

@M

Examples please.

Sam said...

RE: Phat Repat

For those that hadn't noticed before (Jojo, M, ect.) PR has stated many times in the past via comments that the third world benefits from ex priv. Not just the third world but he cites Chinese economic growth, infrastructure, ect. as a ex priv. benefit.

He is of course incorrect. First off just in his language. Ex priv. is just a term used to describe the perpetual overvaluation of a single nation's currency. The "privilege" is simply that the US can buy more stuff on credit than it can ever repay year after year without the value of its credit decreasing. A more clear argument would be to say that third world nations and other countries in general benefit from the current monetary arrangement or $IMFs. This would still be incorrect but at least more clear.

If Jeff is following the comments I bet he could post the FOA quotes where our trail guide is pointing out the folly most foreign nations bought into by taking on dollar debts in order to build up their economies. Once indebted these poor nations worked tirelessly to ship us all their stuff in exchange for precious overvalued dollars and even more access to dollar credit. They kept their own currencies as low and weak as possible to stimulate even more export business never realizing that their own people, starving and poor, would love to enjoy some goods and services domestically if only their currency was allowed to rise.

M said...

@PR

Umm maybe by the simple fact that under expriv, the more productive a 3rd world economy becomes, the more it finances, and gives away its production to the US. Under normal circumstances, the more productive a third world country becomes, the more valuable their currency becomes, which makes imports of energy and food cheaper, which gives them more discretionary income to spend on other things.

Expriv is glorified slavery for the 3rd world. And here you are saying its a privilege. Thats an insult.

Jeff said...

Sam, for those quotes see FOFOA's

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2014/08/six.html

But I do have something for the yield chasing alpha dog timer/traders:

FOA: Timing?

We, and I, as physical gold advocates, don't need timing for this position! Timing is for poor, paper traders. We are neither and our solid, long term, one call over several years to hold physical gold will confirm our reasoning. There is no stress for me to own this ancient asset as it is in a good proportion to all my other wealth.

There is no trading an economic system whose currency is ending its timeline. Smart, quick talking players will joke at our expense until fast markets and locked down paper gold positions block their "trading even" move into physical at any relative cheap price. Mine owners will see any near term profits evaporate into a government induced pricing contango that constrains stock equity with forced selling at paper gold prices.

My personal view

They will, one day in the future, helplessly watch their investments fall far behind a world free market price for physical gold. Further into the future, one day, mines will make money on the last thousand per ounce price for gold; only the first $XX,000.00 of price will not be available to them.

(...)

Think about this? What if the 1970s wasn't a guidebook for gold investing. Maybe it was only a controlled explosion in the gold price as Another offered. If so, what lies in the future could truly be the downfall of the dollar, and we will participate in a massive transfer (and loss) of wealth such as this generation has never seen Such a turn of events would most certainly come with incredible risk for anyone that would attempt to financially survive.

My views:

Anyone that tries to time this market with paper gold investments (futures, mine stocks, mine options, gold certificates, etc.) is making a play for a repeat of the 1970s markets. Or even a quick turn around of the current trend. Perhaps those are good bets.

But, what if, in the late 1990s we are currently beginning a "controlled implosion" of the dollar? A type of slow dollar debt destruction, that breaks every market that uses the dollar for settlement ?

Zebedee said...

@ jojo

"yield whores" . +100! Perfect summation.

Those that understand Freegold, and everything that FOFOA posits here, could relate to those two words. Those that do understand this, unquestionably, sleep very well each and every night. Freegold or no Freegold, chasing yield is so passé.

Thanks again FOFOA for this fine blog. Truly remarkable.

Phat Repat said...

ExPriv, as I've always argued, is a gross oversimplification and it's amusing to watch the pretzel maneuvers in order to paint a particular picture.

@M
Of course, how silly of me. The advancement of these countries would've come all of its own. The infrastructure and knowledge to build out their economies, to market their goods, required absolutely no investment. Who is insulting whom?

Edwardo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Edwardo said...

Chasing yield is dangerous to your w(h)ealth.

Anand Srivastava said...

@Phat

Not everybody has the inclination to look into the long waves or short waves, or yield curves to be a good trader. Similarly not everybody has the inclination to look into the details of companies to be able to invest intelligently. Some of us are good at other things than number crunching.

Some other people here, who do love following the curves, have realized that it is pointless. That they were wasting their time, and have given up. And they sleep easy now.

For me, I never was a trader, never bought a share in my life. Never even invested in a mutual fund. I have been a saver. Invested only in Fixed Deposits and Govt bonds. For me Gold is a no brainer.

Phat Repat said...

Not knowing how to play the game is dangerous to your wealth. The arrival of FG is an unknown. However, not unlike FG, a portion of ones wealth should be invested in self-directed accounts to take advantage of the market as opportunities present. What you do with gains, either reinvesting or purchase of additional gold (my preference), is up to you. To each their own.

However, utilizing disparaging labels for specs/investors, only smacks of sour grapes and intellectual laziness.

@anand

Exactly, it's a game and one must understand the rules to play.

Also, I've stated before that I am disappointed (incensed) at how our Seniors have been treated by essentially forcing them into risky positions to obtain yield. THAT is shameful and something I am against. I believe they should be offered prime rates on what they've accumulated throughout their careers and NOT be allowed into the market once social security has been accepted. Up until that point, they would suffer the consequences of their actions should they choose to invest/spec in the markets.

The Jackalope said...

@Phat Repeat You believe senior citizens who accept Social Security payments should not be ALLOWED to invest in the market? Socialist much?

I must say I shake my head when comments here state that as savers they are happy investing in gold no matter what its relative purchasing power long term. As if investing in gold is a virtue in and of itself regardless if your PP gets cut by 75% over your working life. It strains all credibility. Thats obviously aside from how many expect freegold to be triggered, with a crash in the paper price. But for someone to say "Chasing yield (return ) is so pase" really sounds ridiculous. No rational person wants to store their savings in a depreciating asset, no one saves content with a result that goes against their own self interest. It's absurd.

tEON said...

No rational person wants to store their savings in a depreciating asset, no one saves content with a result that goes against their own self interest. It's absurd.

A rational person who is content to realize that it is not his immediate self-interests that count - but their children and children's children (Giant talk fella). Hard to swallow for the I, Me, Mine Trader that some people are content to care more about their offspring, and their generations beyond their lifespan, than themselves. Own as much gold as you understand. Looking for a lottery ticket? Wrong Forum.

The Jackalope said...

tEON, didnt realize you were a giant. I find it interesting how now the goalposts get kicked to our childrens children. Not sure about you,but not all my savings are designed to be utilized by my grandchildren. I am not a giant, and neither are any of the posters on this blog.

I'm not interested in leaving a legacy of financial wealth to my children or grandchildren. The wealth I leave for them has nothing to do with financial resources.

Phat Repat said...

@Stu
A boring oversimplification. There is an age beyond which certain activities are not reasonable (driving, military, independent living, self-directed health care, etc...). We have tests for many things in society, and while they shouldn't be too intrusive, they should be reasonable. If you are sophisticated enough of a spec/investor, and you choose to continue that activity in "retirement", then you don't need (nor should you qualify for) SS.

DP said...

If one has already purchased, one does not need to concern oneself with preservation of purchasing power. One has already been paid.

The Jackalope said...

@Phat Thats a horrific big brother position to take. The fact that someone can should be able to save their whole lives, contribute to social security and then be told what they can do with their own capital in order to claim on the system they paid into is an absolutely abhorrent example of big brotherism. I can't even imagine living in such a totalitarian system and it is my sincerest hope that your vision is never implemented in this country. and if it is, I hope that people take up arms to fight such a system.

The Jackalope said...

@dp The more theoretical the discussion gets here about how the relative purchasing power of gold doesn't matter, the more convinced I become that regular posters here don't believe in freegold. It's a cop out way of saying you were wrong.

Jeff said...

And when the sophisticated investors get destroyed, how sophisticated will they look?

FOFOA: Have you noticed how many people think they are traders and investors these days? And with all the options to invest in and trade out there, who can blame them? But in reality they are not traders or investors. They are doctors, lawyers, businessmen… and savers. What we call investing today is more like speculating. So why do we "save" the way we do today, by speculating on things we know so little about?

Today's savers have given their savings to every manner of counterparty who went on a spending spree, leaving only the illusion of a debt that is too big to even be serviced in real terms. We have spent the last 35 years exploring the Milky Way galaxy of investment options, pretending to be investors and traders, when all we really are is savers waiting, once again, to be sacrificed.

It seems to me that we are now in the consolidation phase of change, heading back down to Earth. And where you choose to land, to consolidate your savings, has never been more important than it is today.

Jeff said...

'Of course, how silly of me. The advancement of these countries would've come all of its own. The infrastructure and knowledge to build out their economies, to market their goods, required absolutely no investment.'

What would the world have done without us? Because we are so awesome, and our success is totally due to our awesomeness, and not a manipulated currency...

FOA: For a citizen living in Europe and using the Euro, it will become the best of all worlds. Not much different from the American using dollars to buy goods (in discounted real terms) from Japan or any other third world country. Only, now the shoe will be on the other foot with the USA trying desperately to sell it's goods to Europe for EUROS. This will be another strange twist as many/most of Americas foreign goods producers will, by then have stopped using dollars as reserve assets.

(...)

Here, one confronts the Reality that during our long life, we did not create as much excess worth from our endeavors as we thought. Truly, all these years the Western economies produced no more assets than many Third World Countries! I ask you, for the future, in what world class money will you hold the savings of a lifetime? And more importantly, will others judge it to have value? Will you continue to "trade gold to make more paper currency" or "will you trade paper assets to acquire more gold"? Most will agree, the choice will impact one's net worth for the rest of their life!

"Another: It is to say, "these westerners are not as rich as there currency say they are"!"

Some day you will read in the financial pages: "It is in the value judgment of paper assets that people found the lies."

(...)

Understand that the increased use of commodities is a good thing. It's not just for the purpose of making rising chart pattern so speculators can sell their calls! Commodity usage creates real things and helps the lives of real people. When citizens gain real productive mechanisms, they hold real wealth. Some would have you believe that third world people are enriched by saving US treasury bonds, not true! The only way to increase world trade, with an eye on building new consumers in all countries, is to remove the overhang of "dollar settlement".

Anand Srivastava said...

IMO Social Security is an aberration of the Privilege of the Western World.

It will go away in the coming singularity.

I would think that people will be expected to take care of their future. Gold will form the backbone for the savers, provided by bank lockers. Govt will only provide for the poor, who could not save or lost their wealth due to their stupid decisions.

tEON said...

I'm not interested in leaving a legacy of financial wealth to my children or grandchildren

We've got that since you arrived. It's all about Stu. Gotcha. I suggest that your stance is not thinking like a Giant, but like a trader. As soon as a revaluation occurs - you're outta Gold and into 'stuff' - lottery-style (Hey, wouldn't want to leave any of that Gold to your kids). That will be quite the legacy. It is comforting that since your sabbatical, nothing has changed in your outlook.

"Freegold isn't co-inciding with my imminent retirement plans. Who do I complain to?"

Stu, I will bring up your concerns at the next Timing on FG Council Sub-Comitee meeting. In the interim I suggest shaking your fist at FG - perhaps that will trigger a revaluation.

MatrixSentry said...

Stu Unger,

I have a lot of gold. In fact, much more than I need. I have a choice each and every month in which I decide to consume, invest, or save a significant amount of surplus earnings. I live a modest lifestyle, so I naturally gravitate to the decision whether to save or invest. I enjoy saving in gold.

My views on wealth, money, saving, and investing are in complete alignment with concepts articulated on this blog. Clearly I am content to own the majority of my wealth in gold. You think my actions are foolhardy. This is because you do not agree with or accept the concepts that this blog exists to explore. This isn't an economics blog, political blog, or a social commentary blog. We have a singular focus here. If that is news to you, please consider the words at the top of the blog. Then if you so desire, read the 5 plus years worth of material that maintains the singular focus that was in mind when FOFOA launched the blog.

So a simple question:

Why are you here? I am trying to give you the opportunity to articulate why we shouldn't view you as anything other than a fucking troll. Do you hang out at other blogs that espouse concepts that you disagree with? I don't. I find such a thing to be a huge waste of time. I do this in all aspects of my life. I analyze a position, and idea, a person, whatever. Then I either decide to engage, to suspend judgment pending more information, or I reject and move on. I don't hang around to be an antagonist in spite because my views to do not align.

Skip the bullshit please. What is it that you hope to accomplish here?

The regulars here are quite content and happy, thank you. We own gold and we believe in freegold. You are the one that does not believe. You aren't happy and content. A happy and content person would not linger here telling us how convinced you are that we do not believe. You would find something better to occupy your time.

You are polluting this blog. Do the honorable thing and leave.

The Jackalope said...

Everyone has their own priorities. I don't believe financial assets are all that important to leave to children. Intellectual development, stable emotional maturity, a myriad of worldly experiences and a legacy of a loving home...thats whats important for me to leave to my children. Financial wealth is the cherry on top. They may get that, they may not, but you don't regret the sundae just because you don't get the cherry.

Giants have the luxury of thinking like Giants because they already have the best this world can offer. I want a kick ass ranch and a pimped out beach house. yellow rocks are just a means to an end for me.

The Jackalope said...

@Matrix Where did I say your actions are foolhardy? I don;t recall saying that. In fact, I couldn't care less what you do with your wealth or your savings, and I can't possibly fathom why anyone here cares about anyone elses, including mine. I want to talk about the larger issues of freegold and this supposed valuation.

I also have a lot of gold, who cares? Wanna compare stacks like a big sick contest? It's you that wants to personalize this discussion as if I or anyone possibly cares about your portfolio allocation.

Why am I here? I'm here to see if my rising suspicion that this place is a cult, and I fell for it are correct. When I read posts about how it doesn't matter if there is ever a revaluation because saving in gold is a virtue in and of itself I get even more suspicious. At some point things have to start playing out the way described here or it's all a waste of time.

The Euro looks to be falling apart, QE is over, rates are rising, all things we read here that could not and would not happen.

And now the chorus of posts about how it doesnt matter...SOMEDAY when my kids are grown and I'm gone it will have all been worth it. Thats a load of shit.

If I were you, I'd get comfortable with the fact that your opinion of whether or not I should post here is completely meaningless to me.

Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tommy2Tone said...

Shake harder Stu

The Jackalope said...

PS. I'm here to occasionally drop a loud fart in what is increasingly a circle jerk echo chamber. All the interesting posters that were actually critical thinkers are long gone, and we're left with people who don't question anything. Look back at the posts from 3-4 years ago. All gone. Why? Because they got tired of the blind acceptance and the lack of critical thinking here.

Tommy2Tone said...

fools and assumptions

The Jackalope said...

@jojo good one. I'm sure it comes off that way, but at some point a theory is worthless if the day it can be proven gets farther and farther away and more and more theoretical.

Like a doomsday cult that keeps putting off doomsday.

Tommy2Tone said...

it's all in the lens
Koolaid??

Carillion said...

"I am interested in what the 'Dollar Collapse' story will be and who will be blamed."

Hello Indenture,

Well going by the most recent TIC data, it might be Russia:

http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfh.txt

In December, Russia unloaded over 20% of their total holdings in Treasury Securities, in response, I assume to America's stance on the Ukraine conflict. This must be putting some strain on the financial system.

Looking at 2014, the total Treasury holding by the ROW increased by 361.1 billion dollars over the year, when it needed to increase by almost 500 billion dollars to maintain the required structural support. In addition, only 58.5 billion was official foreign government support, leaving the other 302.6 billion dollars to the private sector. This is incidental support and not structural, as most here are aware, which could turn on a dime at any moment...

In short, there is currently not enough support for the dollar, and very little of what there is constitutes as structural support. In addition, Russia is currently shaking the already shaky foundations. This could turn out to be a very interesting year.

Jeff said...

Maybe they got tired of the same bothersome questions from the same yammering small fry who want their windfall profit so they can blow it on 40 acres and mule. That's not thinking like a giant, but when no man will tell them the day and the hour, the doubt eats at them, yes precious, we doubts it, the freegold.

But there are many prophets who will tell you exactly the day and the hour. Some have prison records and robot armies spitting out dates and waves and turns, oh my! So pick your (false) prophet and follow them, or pick up your cross and think long and hard about the truth, or keep stinking up the comments here to receive your payment in derision.

The choice is yours.

Indenture said...

"The Euro looks to be falling apart, QE is over, rates are rising, all things we read here that could not and would not happen."

The Euro looks, LOOKS to be falling apart. QE is over? And did I miss something? When did the FED raise the only key interest rate in the world?

Jeff said...

To give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful reasons for misinterpretation. - George McDonald

MatrixSentry said...

Thank you Stu. Quite illuminating.

We all know, by your own admission, you're simply a douche bag. Just a pedestrian, dime-a-dozen miserable fuck. World is full of them.

Carry on. We're bored.

tEON said...

I want a kick ass ranch and a pimped out beach house. yellow rocks are just a means to an end for me.

Wrong forum, Lionheart. Instead, I suggest following Sprott, Sinclair, Turk, Leeb, Morgan etc. - they'll tell you what you want to hear - perhaps even a specifc date. Then you will be as content (well, temporarily) as the regulars have been here for years. You certainly don't need to come here and pee on FG to give you satisfaction and the knowledge that this theory is not for you. To each his own.

"Hold as much Gold as you understand" and the suggested amount for you decreases with each of your posts.

The Jackalope said...

@tEON What bearig do my preferences on how to allocates after a potential revaluation have on the validity of the thesis of freegold?

I'll give you a hint, nothing.

Are you the one who decides who this blog is for? Is your litmus test how they choose to spend or save after revaluation? I dont; see how my preference for hookers and blow impact the potential of freegold.

No wonder this blog is now an echo chamber.

PS. you're a dumbass.

Motley Fool said...

Stu

"When I read posts about how it doesn't matter if there is ever a revaluation because saving in gold is a virtue in and of itself I get even more suspicious."

I would agree. Who said this though?

"At some point things have to start playing out the way described here or it's all a waste of time."

Sure, with the caveat that we cannot know the exact timing. I will agree that if it only happens in the time of our children or later, then it would have been a waste of time for us personally, but I do not think it will take that long.

I have two simple questions for you.

Do you understand what maintains quo, aka the $IMFS?

And.

Do you think we can continue like this indefinitely?

TF

The Jackalope said...

@indenture finally, a fair substantive rebuttal not based on ad hominems.

I ask you this. if the Euro starts to disintegrates and the fed does start to raise rates, will you consider that enough to question the validity of the thesis? What I'm getting at, is how far off the rails of freegold conventional wisdom would we have to get before you started to question in.

Or put in an even more succinct way, is it a theory or a religion?

@Jeff Damn right, but it will be a sweet 40 acres. I am not giant, my situation is not that of a giant.dont care how they think except as it pertains to a revaluation. Are you a giant?

The Jackalope said...

@Fool I appreciate the honesty, its refreshing.

To answer your two questions directly...

1) The hoarding of dollars, primarily overseas

2) Yes. Note your question was could it continue indefinitely..yes it could. I think a fair reading of the situation would have to come to the conclusion that the current system has proven to be significantly more resilient than anyone on this blog believed 4, 3 and 2 years ago.

Do I believe freegold is still a possible outcome, in all honesty yes I do. I no longer believe it is a fait accompli.

My problem with this blog is where the comments section was once filled with giant thinkers putting the events of the day in context it has sadly evolved into a sarcastic echo chamber where posters strive for some self congratulatory moral superiority that saving in gold apparently bestows regardless of how the thesis is playing out in the real world. So I guess I'm trying to get to the point of where do posters here start to question this thing of ours, and where is the critical analysis?

It's non existent. And the proof is clearly in the many personal attacks on anyone who rocks the boat. We get replies with youtube links and pontification about how well they sleep at night. It's as substantive as ether.

Jeff said...

The point in thinking like a giant is not to pretend to be one. The point is that once you understand the inevitability of the future, you can rest comfortably in that knowledge. Your intellect may even overcome your avarice; however I recognize there are people who do not have intellectual curiousity, and who are incapable of comprehending truth or seeing beyond their own noses.

I have nothing to offer those people.

The Jackalope said...

@Jeff From experience, I believe that idea that Giants hoard gold in some massive quantity to be a fantasy. Just like a two tier market and the conspiritard idea that someone who wants to buy billions in gold is brought into a room and informed how they can not. It's nonsense.

Anonymous said...

Jeff...do you follow FOFOA unto death itself, like the followers of Christ?

Will you keep on accumulating pieces of gold even knowing that you would die in 5 years and they would never revalue in that time?

Think on it.

If your answer is yes, then either:
a) you're an idealogue (which is ok, but most people here deny it...most people here claim to be objective, even scientific, in their predictions of what is supposed to happen...and it hasn't occurred, so far the weatherman is wrong)
or
b) you have others like children and are accumulating for them...which is also ok, but still there is a timeframe involved and you could just as well accumulate land, house, goods, resources, collectibles, investments, etc. which can be passed down and which naturally we as shrimp get less of the more we put into gold.

Ok so that's my challenge to those here who refuse to deal with the question of time and opportunity cost. Will you accumulate gold knowing you will die before it revalues?

I'm asking you to prove your commitment in a comment. It's easy to hurl insults. It's harder to put something down in writing which shows genuine commitment.

If none of you are willing to put this in writing, I will conclude that you are planning for the revaluation during your lifetime, which means you have a specific time and target involved and are planning to benefit.

The Jackalope said...

For the record, if I knew gold would revalue after I died I would sell almost every ounce. I'd put maybe 40 ounces aside for my kids and sell everything else. Good question Random Man.

My prediction is tEON will say anyone who wouldnt keep it all should find a different blog, lol.

Jeff said...

Random Man,

A better formulation of your question is 'who will die first, you or the $IMF?' If you know the answer, plan accordingly. If you feel pinched by saving in gold, change your behavior. But again, freegold isn't about the small players.

FOFOA: The whole point of the deflation versus hyperinflation debate is about the denouement, the final outcome of this 100-year dollar experiment. It is about the ultimate end, and the debate has been going on ever since the 70s when the dollar was separated from gold and it became clear that there would be an end. The debate is about determining the best stance someone should take who has plenty of net worth. And I do mean PLENTY. People of modest net worth, like me, can of course participate in the debate. But then it can become confusing at times when we think about shortages or supply disruptions of necessities like food. Of course you need to look out for life's necessities first and foremost.

tEON said...

...on ad hominems

...many personal attacks...

...you're a dumbass.

All said by the same peon. Stu the Lionheart sees himself as rocking the intellectual boat of this Forum. On the other hand, The Forum sees him as a total ass-clown - a greedy trader who holds gold rocks to transfer to Ranches and Beach Houses divesting totally and leaving his children nada ("The asshole who accumulates, and breaks, the most toys before death wins!") - ready to denounce FG if it does transpire in his, required, timeframe. Like most notable Trolls, you are thick-skinned and persistent.

The only gratification, I can muster, is that FG won't transpire to the paper price has fallen enough so that jokers like this guy have totally bailed. I hope he comes back to gloat/bitch/fist-shake at that point.

The Jackalope said...

No Jeff, I think the formulation of his question was just fine, and you refused to answer it.

The Jackalope said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Jackalope said...

@tEON So buying any other asset leaves me with nothing? Is it your position that prime real estate would be worth nothing? So IT IS a religion to you...gold or nothing. got it. Thanks.

Don't worry, I can ride my rocks to zero and will. The only debate in my mind is if I should continue to flow my excess into gold, I would say I likely will not.

Motley Fool said...

Joseph Russo

Here are two posts relating to your earlier misunderstanding. Hope this clarifies.

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2011/09/once-upon-time.html
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2012/01/gold-must-flow.html

TF

Motley Fool said...

Joseph Russo

Here are two posts relating to your earlier misunderstanding. Hope this clarifies.

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2011/09/once-upon-time.html
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2012/01/gold-must-flow.html

TF

tEON said...

Stu said:

No Jeff, I think the formulation of his question was just fine, and you refused to answer it.

Let's get to one YOU refused to answer Lionheart (Roar!)

Stu said:

Correct, but it's been slow burning at least 15 years now. Could it slow burn 15 more? Not if the thesis of freegold is correct, IMHO

Okay, can you please clarify your opinion in this statement, Stu. Why is there a timeframe on the FG thesis? in your opinion, of course. I mean if 15 years is acceptable, why is 15 more not? Thank you.

I am simply curious about the 15 and 30 (15 more) numbers. Why? Where did they come from? Are there stats behind that? It sounded dismissive to me - so I wanted some evidence or explanation.

I'm certain some saw the end-game in 1980. Would 15 years have been a time limit? or 'if this goes another 25 years - it will never change' - attitude. I think not. Does that mean it won't ever transpire? Because that is how I inferred Stu's comment (Phat Repat referred to as a 'challenge'). If it doesn't happen by X - it never will. Let's consider that there are plenty of similar statements about all sorts of topics. "If the bomb hasn't detonated by now - it must be safe to enter the building". But in this case it only means the explosion will be bigger... and has an even greater chance of happening. No? If there are enough tomorrows like today - it would seem realistic to have some individuals consider that change (whatever you consider 'change' to be) will never transpire.

queckshep said...

Stu, can you offer any viable possibilities to extend and pretend another boom-bust cycle?
I highly doubt that it could continue much longer, let alone indefinitely. Why? Debt saturation. When you play poker long enough while winning all the time, in the end not many players are willing to participate. If you consider that some, in a fruitless effort to recuperate losses, already bet their car (2000), their house (2008), then what else is left? Play for fun? Central banks already need both hands to play this expert level of whack a mole...it sure would be fun to see how they play the next level.

Motley Fool said...

Stu

To respond

1) Not so much. Prior buying and current holding of dollars is insufficient to maintain the status quo. Sure, selling of those would accelerate the $IMFS demise, but even if not a single one is sold the system can (and will) still fail.

2) I disagree. I will grant this has lasted longer than we here thought it would. That does not mean it will last indefinitely.

Frankly these questions you pose are not new. I cannot recall however with specificity exactly where this has been 'settled'. But since you have clearly not come across it yet, there is some more reading of the blog for you to do yet.

I understand your criticism and you have my sympathy.

Fwiw I continually critically asses the validity of the thesis, in light of ongoing events, and as of yet have no doubts. I know my personal assessment means little, but I can at least state it.

@Random man

If I knew I would die before gold revalues... No. To be fair though I am one of the younger posters here. I have lots of time, barring accidents.

TF

Canadarob said...

Hey stu,
If there is no second market why doesn't China buy all the physical available?

queckshep said...

A few snippets concerning 'conspiratard' two tier markets
....
19 May 2014 - ECB and other central banks announce the fourth Central Bank Gold Agreement
The signatories will continue to coordinate their gold transactions so as to avoid market disturbances;
http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2014/html/pr140519.en.html
....
An IMF Executive Board paper from 1999, explains the issue:
“15. Central bank officials** indicated that they considered information on gold loans and swaps to be highly market-sensitive, in view of the limited number of participants in such transactions. Thus, they considered that the SDDS reserves template should not require the separate disclosure of such information but should instead treat all monetary gold assets, including gold on loan or subject to swap agreements, as a single data item. (page 6)“
** The ‘central bank officials’ referred to above were as follows:
“7. ……At the same time the (IMF) staff consulted the Bank of England, the Deutsche Bundesbank, the Banque de France, and the European Central Bank to review practical and methodological difficulties they might encounter in implementing the CGFS template, in light of recent decisions on publication of reserves data in the Eurosystem. (page 4)”
https://www.sendspace.com/file/zxbkn7
.....

Indenture said...

"Will you keep on accumulating pieces of gold even knowing that you would die in 5 years and they would never revalue in that time?"

That question must have been asked by someone either divorced or without children because anyone with a modicum of understanding of Freegold, and a thought of the continuation of life, would of course continue to Save In Gold. But it is a trick question in the first place because if you think a revaluation would be coming why would you possibly not save in gold?

Stu: You didn't answer my questions. What significant interest rate has risen? How is the Euro falling apart?

Honest answer from me is: If the Fed raised the base interest rate to 5% I would question my understanding of Freegold. But I just remembered that I question my understanding of Freegold daily. That is why I am here so, actually, nothing would change because I have the peace and serenity of a Savers mentality.

A saver has everything he could currently need.

Motley Fool said...

Good point indenture. I don't have children; having some would undoubtedly impact such a decision. I do agree though that there are more important things to give offspring than financial freedom, such as self sufficiency.

Sam said...

Perhaps a better way to frame this discussion would be if both camps asked themselves the question this way: do you think it is best to save ones excess in physical possessions or is it better to forgo getting any physical possessions for your excess at all in exchange for the promise of even more stuff in the future.

Eminent revaluation of gold or not I want physical stuff to save in. There is a good argument that gold has performed as the best of these possessions in antiquity and an even better one that it will perform this role again in the future

Indenture said...

MF: I have been having an internal debate as to when I would inform my son of his inheritance. No matter how great or small of an inheritance, the knowledge of future money can, and often does, destroy the aggressive nature of a strong work ethic. Sometimes I think 18 is a good age because college begins at that time and then I think, are you crazy, college begins at that time. (I remember my college days:) Other times I think 21 is a good age because what better way to celebrate your first (legal) drink than to have knowledge of a secure future, and then other times I think about a wedding gift.

Then I remember that if I have raised my son with a firm understanding of money, assets, saving, and giving he will hopefully be able to remain grounded when his 'windfall' arrives.

The more I think about it the more I want him to simply be happy, raise his own family and enjoy this ride we call life. But I do realize that I will not give away all my money so my son will receive something. It is my job to prepare him for this eventuality.

Coach Joe said...

@Motley Fool ... Thank you for the links, they were quite helpful.

M said...

I read " just another hyperinflation part 1" again.

At one point in it FOFOA basically says that the Fed is trying to blow air back into the balloon but its not working. That was in 2010.

Considering the US stock market today, the oil bubble, record breaking auto and student loans ect , isn't it fair to say that they have blown air back into the bubble ?

@ Stu
If someone convinced you FG was BS , would you pour all your money into a 2x levered long bond etf ? I just don't know what you think you are missing out on. Do you think interest rates will be negative 6 percent in a few years ?

Even if FG is BS, in a trader or speculators mind, gold is looking good here. Everyone hates it. Even the bulls.

The last time interest rates went up, gold was chased up by 2300% and never looked back. Im in it for those kind of gains.

what other asset class has limited downside with that kind of upside ? We don;t even need FG. Just a good ol IMFS bubble in gold. I see them all as possibilities.

myself said...

Freegold is OBVIOUS. Nobody will ever again be given a Bretton Woods unlimited credit to wage war. Since power corrupts, unlimited power must be denied. Unlimited credit expansion must be forestalled. There is only one proven remedy.
Re: socialism. Socialism is only a distribution system, NOT a productivity plan. This crash is NOT accidental. The U.N. brass has admitted that they plan to kill capitalism.
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/021015-738779-climate-change-scare-tool-to-destroy-capitalism.htm#ixzz3S1GBsbw9
The U.N. is also behind most of the vaccine fiasco. So, while gold is good, you must make it to the other side of this unfolding calamity to benefit. I tell people to first buy survival stuff,, then junk silver,,, then gold.
In Scorpion King, the bad guys refuse a box of gold when they are desperate for water,, in the desert.
FACTA is a sign that U.S. GOV is desperate for income. They have turned on investors now that savers have been fleeced.

Michael dV said...

Indenture
My plan is to let the kids and grandkids know that they will be getting a good start, education and the opportunity to pay it back. There is little reason most cannot repay a family plan that which they have withdrawn. That way the same things can be passed on for generations.

Michael dV said...

As for what to save...gold obviously but a man needs guns and guitars too. To give up other real things entirely moves you from the 'saver' to the 'miser' category.
I guess some guys might need a horse.

One Bad Adder said...

The $PoG - DX relationship is getting curiouser by the day.
http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$ONE:$USD&p=D&yr=0&mn=6&dy=0&id=p14522796477
DX is forming a nice pennant, which is (probably) heralding an upside breakout this week.
Lets watch!

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Motley Fool said...

Indenture

Tough considerations indeed.

@Joseph Russo

I noticed nobody else linked, so went digging. You are welcome.

Canadarob said...

Indenture, stu has avoided my questions on a number of occasions. He preaches (way to loudly), about wanting discussions but picks and chooses the questions he wants to address. I'm sure his question selection is based on his limited knowledge.

Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tommy2Tone said...

Stu looks without for all the answers. I don't think Stu trusts himself, deep down.

Unknown said...

So many do not recognize that there is a third way to sound economics.
For your consideration:
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver--15-000-gold-and-the-madness-of-murray-rothbard.aspx?article=6436065142H11690&redirect=false&contributor=Nathan+Lewis

Anonymous said...

Well the way I see it is that very few camps are actually right in the present moment of kick the can, life support, suspended animation that is the world.

Goldbugs who thought the bull market would continue? Wrong. Mainstream media that thinks gold is a relic headed to worthlessness? Wrong. Gold staying steady.

Freegolders? Perhaps correct in the assessment that the standard bull market case would not continue, and I grant that, but that's all. No revaluation. Gold slightly above production costs and that's all.

Did anybody save for a few obscure bloggers predict the oil crash?

So actually very few people, if anyone, has been proven correct about what's going on.

I don't believe there are contradictions in nature! If something should have happened, and it hasn't, then you must conclude that everything is being managed, a slow rotten descent. There is no catharsis and it's the catharsis that is being prevented at all costs. This goes against what so many here believe, which is that there are giants out there just waiting and ready for the freegold moment.

Everything, everything about the current state of affairs suggests that in fact they are trying to delay as long as humanly possible.

Xavier said...

I think we will have to wait until the next recession to see the potential unfolding of freegold, which by the looks of some indicators isn't far away

Franco said...

"This goes against what so many here believe, which is that there are giants out there just waiting and ready for the freegold moment."

You couldn't have gotten that more wrong.

Franco said...

Also, flatulence reminds me a lot of a poster from a while back who kept posting the same drivel, can't think of the poster name now, but also kept ranting about chasing yield after the transition. FOFOA was very patient with him, but eventually he got the ban hammer. Anyhow, this seems like another case of the same: a troll.

Bright aurum said...

@ OBA
You wrote:
"DX is forming a nice pennant, which is (probably) heralding an upside breakout this week."
Let`s hope you are right.
It just may trigger the necessary conditions for this sequence to come true:
ANOTHER:
"The actual buying of gold ( no other metals ) by huge players is not a prediction, it is ongoing. In 1997 it exploded! The price of the metal in currency terms will be made for all to see as it moves quickly upward for a very short period of time ( 30 days ) . After that only black market traders and third world noones will understand it's price! When is this going to happen? I have no idea. Is there anything to look for that will tell us when the problems have started? At first the US$ and gold will go up together against all other assets!"
Cheers,

Bright aurum said...

@OBA
http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$cci:$gold&p=W&yr=3&mn=0&dy=0&id=p91409460008

obviouslty
http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$spx:$gold&p=W&yr=3&mn=0&dy=0&id=p91409460008 needs also break and DX upmove will help.
A sheer extrapolation from the 88 level brings us to 100+ !!!
The freegold timers should be foaming at the mouth by then.

Dr, Boer said...

Over 2000 years ago, a certain nation received the best possible proposal ever, for now and the future. Starting with personal devotion, integrity and humility, justice and peace would come to all. Believe it or not: Even politicians and bankers would (with changed hearts) be honest and fair.
Well, the power mongers of that time and that nation fiercely rejected the proposal. And won the support of the masses. Mankind has a sorrow penchant for rejecting the Good. Rather, we want freedom, maneuvering space, shades of grey, wiggle room, “yes” and “no” without commitment, a preference for mist and shadows that comfortably hide duplicity and lack of honesty.
“The world will come to the light of FG, not because they like it but because they have to”. The true FG believer is quite sure. As ANOTHER true believer I add: “The world will ultimately return to God and his Christ, not because they like it but because they have to.”

Dante_Eu said...

@Stu:

What lose of purchasing power are you talking about? You should ask Russians or Belarusians. Can't happen in good old USA? Maybe, maybe not.

Personally, physical gold is the only physical thing I have bought that has preserved purchasing power in my local currency. And I started only in early 2010. Everything else lost at least 30% the same second I went through the door.

You, naturally, are way too Amerika centric. There is a whole world out there: China, India, Russia, Arab countries and guess what? Those people will be buying gold long after you or me are long gone. Freegold or not. For the same reason they were doing it yesterday and are doing it today.

Revaluation or not, peace of mind, I came to realize, is way more important.

M said...

@ Random man

Well since you asked.. I predicted the oil bear market on this blog.

This was a comment I made on this blog on June 6 2014 when oil was $102 a barrel:

I cant help but notice that everyone from Brazil to Russia to Canada to the US thinks that the oil market is immune to over supply. If you watch "The Prize", you will see that there was always an obvious business cycle in the oil market. When prices were up, oil companies would bring more supply to market and new oil companies would sprout up. Then, the market would become over-supplied and prices would would fall.
Everywhere you look, there is countries and companies discovering new oil and using capital intensive means to get at it. Everyone is becoming oil rich. Russia turned itself back into an empire overnight because of oil.
Everyone seems oblivious to the fact that oil is a commodity market like anything else and if it gets over-supplied, the price will have to come down. It always does. But ever since 2000, there hasn't been a state of over-supply in the market. I think we are way overdue for one. Who knows what form this oil bear market will take, with all the inflation in the world....Who knows how badly the inflation is screwing up the oil market.
June 6, 2014 at 10:16 AM

The Jackalope said...

@Canadarob I didnt answer your question because it was dumb. The most obvious answer is they are able to purchase all the gold they want to purchase...and are.

Indenture said...

Actually Stu, your answer is not well thought out (a much more polite phraseology than 'dumb'). China is not purchasing all the gold they want to purchase. The largest economy in the world does not need to sit on 4 Trillion in US Treasuries and if they could the Central Bank of China would swap those paper promises for gold immediately.

Since China has not acquired gold for US Treasuries it is safe to say they can't.

Question for you Stu (if you have the time to answer): Why does China hold on to US Treasuries since physical gold would be much more beneficial to their citizens?

The Jackalope said...

@indenture...you're making several unproven assumptions in your questions, and both of them assume the validity of freegold. I don't assume anything. How do you know China isn't purchasing all the gold they want? they sure seem to have been able to source plenty with no problem at all. How do you know gold would be better than treasuries for it's citizens? It certainly hasn't been the case since the financial crisis. I'm not going to engage in a critical discussion if we have to have it assuming the freegold theory is a fact, thats not how you have a critical discussion.

Anand Srivastava said...

Stu

Initially China's aim was to collect 10000tons of gold. Now they are talking about 8500tons. If enough gold was there why didn't they simply buy it. They can't be hurting for money with 4trillions. More importantly why did they need to reduce their target.

The problem with you is that you are a true believer and cannot let reality come in between. Same is the case with your QToM. When I put a response you don't respond.

Indenture said...

Stu, based on all the empirical evidence, you are incapable of having a critical discussion. You are proficient at posing question but you refuse to answer question posed to you.

Joseph: Please don't let Stu's personality deter you from continuing your research into Freegold. Every now and then someone like Stu stops by to disturb the class.

Edwardo said...

A troll is a terrible thing
Warbling from one who can't sing
Too sharp or too flat
The unmusical scat
Of a twat who's a pure dingaling

The Jackalope said...

@anand I'm sorry but I don;t have the time to answer every question put to me. What precisely am I a true believer in? I've been reading this blog since 2008, and at one point hd 70% of my assets in physical gold. Due to gold going down and my stocks going up I'm still over 40% so your assumptions are wildly off base.

#indenture, I dont refuse to answer your questions, I refuse to answer your questions because to do so would presuppose that freegold is a fait accompli. I no longer believe that to be the case. the actual evidence shows that China is very comfortable with owning treasuries and clearly they want to buy gold, and they are. Is gold trading at a significant premium in China? No, not anymore, Does that imply that demand is being wholly satisfied? Yes, yes it does.

Sorry if I rely on evidence and you rely on conjecture, but thats your problem, not mine.

The Jackalope said...

@anand Do you think its impossible that China lowered its target because they decided they don't need as much? Is it not possible they didn't just buy gold all at once because they had other priorities that superseded just going all in? Is it possible they chose to cost average over time, which is as worked out magnificently, btw? Are these not logical alternatives if you don't just assume freegold is coming?

No, you ignore these very simple, logical possibilities because they interfere with your supposition, which is why you are incapable of an impartial discussion.

M said...

@ Stu

Regardless of freegold, what is out there right now that offers thousands of percent in upside with such limited downside ? The miners are telling us that gold is right around the cost of production.

As a speculator, day trader, long term investor or saver, what are you missing out on by being in gold right now ?

Remember, gold goes up when interest rates are rising. Look at the 60's or 70's or look from 2004 to 2006 when the Fed went from 1% to 6%. Gold went up faster when rates were rising then when they were falling. And I know people will say "but gold was only rising because the real rate is still negative". Its a fluid situation. There wasn't exactly a big inflation issue in 2004. The CPI was higher in 2000 when Greenspan lowered rates then it was in 2004 when he raised them.

The Jackalope said...

@M the idea that gold offers thousands of percent upside is a dubious assumption at best. If you believe in freegold, which I am lukewarm about, perhaps. The opportunity cost in gold has been huge. As the price of oil drops the cost of production drops with it so in a deflationary environment and putting freegold aside, I believe gold easily has another 30% downside capability.

Wages are starting to go up, unemployment is improving, the consumer has dropped their leverage, interest rates while likely to rise are still very likely to stay low on a historical basis. The idea that stocks can keep running is not a crazy one. Emerging market equities are very cheap on a relative basis.

I'm not going to sell my gold, it's right around my average cost basis at this point and I still consider freegold a possibility in my lifetime, but not a very likely one. I struggle with how to invest my savings very much. Lately I've been buying art and flipping some at a good profit.

But if freegold inst coming, there are worse places to be than in equities. I'm waiting for High Yield to blow up as its apt to do at least once a decade and allocate some funds there.

byiamBYoung said...

"Lately I've been buying art and flipping some at a good profit. "

Do you mean hawking sofa-size paintings from the back of a van? My favorite is the dogs playing pool. I bet that fetches a sweet premium.

The Jackalope said...

@ BBY No, it;s actually a really new endeavor for me. First it was just an effort to build a personal collection without paying up the ass gallery prices, but its taken on a bit of a life of its own. I'm not making a fortune by any stretch, but I've been financing most of my own collection and its a lot of fun.

tEON said...

It's painfully obvious no matter what he claims to have read - he doesn't even understand Gold - let alone FG. He's a trader through and through - the USD his constant denominator, incapable of opening his limited mind.

He also didn't answer my question - first asked (twice) in January and repeated a 3rd time here. I guess he is too busy with his Lion-lifestyle. This guy is the biggest turkey to come to this Forum in years. My suggestion is to ignore him - he is stuck with his limitations - and attempting to educate him is wasted time - he will only dig his heels in deeper and continue to lash-out like a corner animal.

I don't understand why he doesn't take his opinions and depart instead of insulting people and requesting insults with his nasty, childish, attitude. It's okay to see things a different way, Lionheart. That is why they have horse races... and yours is coming in last. That is my bet.

The Jackalope said...

@indendute, you just insulted me like four times and then cry that I'm insulting you? I did answer your questions yesterday, your questions today are silly and leading. You can;t presuppose a disputed point and then as the person to answer your question to presuppose that which he disputes. You're not nearly as bright as you'd like to think you are. If you missed my answers to your questions yesterday I suggest you scroll up. Otherwise I have not dodged anything you've asked.

You mean my many hundreds of ounces of gold are coming in last? lol, you;re being a silly little clown.

tEON said...

Stu said:

Correct, but it's been slow burning at least 15 years now. Could it slow burn 15 more? Not if the thesis of freegold is correct, IMHO

Okay, can you please clarify your opinion in this statement, Stu. Why is there a timeframe on the FG thesis? in your opinion, of course. I mean if 15 years is acceptable, why is 15 more not? Thank you.

I am simply curious about the 15 and 30 (15 more) numbers. Why? Where did they come from? Are there stats behind that? It sounded dismissive to me - so I wanted some evidence or explanation.

I'm certain some saw the end-game in 1980. Would 15 years have been a time limit? or 'if this goes another 25 years - it will never change' - attitude. I think not. Does that mean it won't ever transpire? Because that is how I inferred Stu's comment (Phat Repat referred to as a 'challenge'). If it doesn't happen by X - it never will. Let's consider that there are plenty of similar statements about all sorts of topics. "If the bomb hasn't detonated by now - it must be safe to enter the building". But in this case it only means the explosion will be bigger... and has an even greater chance of happening. No? If there are enough tomorrows like today - it would seem realistic to have some individuals consider that change (whatever you consider 'change' to be) will never transpire.

The Jackalope said...

@tEON sorry, I did ignore your question because you're a raging asshole. I thought you were indenture, he may disagree, but he's more of a gentleman so I try to give his questions a little more effort.

tEON said...

I did ignore your question because you're a raging asshole

Raging, eh? That might be a bit of an exaggeration... I wonder how you see yourself? Ohh yeah - a Lion! (Roar!)

Kudos to Matrix Sentry - he nailed you right from the start. I tip my hat to you, Sir.

Haven't you got some Lion-ing to do somewhere, Stu? A pimped-out Beach-house or the like? You've been amusing but your temper-tantrums have given you away... we can all see through you now. You have a glass-head.

The Jackalope said...

I'm more of a sonofabitch, but an honest one who wants to have a discussion in good faith.

I can see why you like MatrixSentry, you both prefer to personalize discussions rather than have one on the larger issues.

tEON said...

discussions

Two-way street, Lion. You come here and demand answers then insult people when they don't tell you what you want to hear (a FG date) - refuse to answer their questions and, simultaneously, brag about your wealth. Yeah - you're a real sweetheart of a guy... Matrix has helped so many people understand FG - but he's right about you - you don't want to be educated - you want to pout (and bitch) that FG has not happened yet for you exchange your Gold for toys.

Indenture said...

Stu: I see no benefit from your continued presence. I shall politely ask FOFOA to ban you from his blog.

Edwardo said...

A glass head is no laughing matter
It's so very easy to shatter
Just a wee ping
Destroys the poor thing
Worse than a fall from a ladder

byiamBYoung said...

@Stu,

Seems like most folks here are giving up on you. I'll withhold judgement a while longer, because I was a pain in the ass to the regulars when I first came across this site years ago, and so I tend to give the benefit of the doubt now.

I think that this discussion could benefit from fewer sweeping statements all around.

Thanks mostly to the insights found on this blog, I personally have become convinced that physical gold is very undervalued as a result of the overbearing paper gold price discovery mechanism. Given that the gold price is hovering at approximately the all-in cost of production, I don't see how the price could go a lot lower without killing supply.

That said, I believe that the price will, indeed, be driven lower. Hopefully, I'll be able to buy a lot more as that happens. Fingers crossed.

I also believe that the physical gold price is very likely to decouple from the paper price as the supply is choked off. I observe that central banks across the planet have massive reserves in physical (not paper) gold. If the CBs suddenly began dishording physical, I would be inclined to think that the whole physical gold thing was no longer valid. That is far from the case, though.

Personally, I think that central banks have insights that I will never be privy to. You are not privy to them either, Stu. So, we are both outsiders peering in through a murky and undependable lens.

The fact that they hold gold, and aggressively so, is a strong indicator to me of their informed intentions. Right?

Do I think there will be a day when the world joins hands and sings the praises of saving in physical gold? No, I don't. I think that many many people will never get it. Same as today.

Do I think that traders will stop trading? Nope.

Do I think that physical gold is the safest place for my savings? Yes indeed.

Do I think that a revaluation of gold and a toppling of the $IMFS will happen in our lifetime? Yes.

Soon? I believe so, yes.

How long will I wait? Until I am dead.

That's my take. You are entitled to yours.

But don't be a dick. We are all here because we want to understand. Be respectful, and be included.

Cheers

The Jackalope said...

@indenture I see you have a very high regard for your opinion and influence. Good luck!

M said...

@ Stu

The last time interest rates were close to this low, in the previous credit cycle, was in the 60;s. Gold was $35 an ounce. By the time interest rates went up to 18%, gold was $800 an ounce. Thats around 2300%.

This time is different ?

You said the opportunity cost has been huge. Then you said this:

"I struggle with how to invest my savings very much"

So the opportunity cost has not been huge has it ?

Canadarob said...

Haha stu!!! I knew it!!! You actually think the economy is improving. Hahaha. And you try to point out all the"holes" in freegold yet you happily accept that the GDP and CPI aren't manipulated. The unemployment numbers are a joke. Come on stu.....I thought you would be more aSTUte

Canadarob said...

Hey stu. This just in. Fox news is reporting housing starts are up! I think you may be right. This thing is turning around

Canadarob said...

Also, typically "having an argument in good faith" doesn't usually involve insults or demeaning the other person.
Stu. You have been ripped to shreads here. By pretty much every poster. Everyone thinks you're a joke for many many reasons that have been stated. Fofoa already shut you down. We all know deep down, you like that you get a bit of a rise here with your bull shit. And I'm sure everyone would agree that the only reason people have tried to put up with you is just so that newcomers don't get too discouraged.
You claim that you just innocently want to have civilized discussions yet YOU don't. You're a hypocrite and an all around shitty dude.

Anand Srivastava said...

Stu: "Do you think its impossible that China lowered its target because they decided they don't need as much?"

True, but their first target was prior to 2009. The revised one was in 2013. So what you are saying is that they could not buy a measly 10,000 tons, but instead bought treasuries worth more than 500Billions.

Do you seriously think that they value Dollars more than Gold? What would be the point of collecting gold then? They do have a lot of Treasuries with them. There are the following facts for you. You may not believe in them though.

1) Gold is scarce, enough that you cannot buy as much as you want. They have been buying a lot, since 2008. 1000tons a year. And they picked up the slack due to less procurement by India. They are infact buying all the gold that has been made available. They are even buying gold Mines.
2) Dollar is worthless, but its better that the world does not come to grip with the fact. As soon as the world realizes about the worthlessness of dollar gold will shoot to the moon, as it is the only thing asset that is liquid enough and available to everybody. Then it will be more expensive to buy gold.
3) China saved USD during the crisis, because it did not want the USD to go away before it built its industry to the max. Now it is at the max, as is evidenced by the lack of growth there. This has been the state since 2011. This is why China stopped buying Treasuries.

I would think the only sane conclusion is that China does not consider 10,000Tons to be a viable target, and has reduced it to 8500tons. I would think this is also a feel good target, as it is above US's gold hoard. They are likely not to even reach this.

Anand Srivastava said...

"I struggle with how to invest my savings very much."

This was one of the first few concepts I learnt on this blog the difference between Saving and Investing.

I guess you would also not understand the 3 functions of money.

You wouldn't believe in the conflict between Debtors and Savers.

I am not sure what you believe in this blog. There are lots of people who talk about investing in gold. This is the only one which talks about saving in gold. I am not sure why would you buy physical gold if you are investing in gold. Isn't it much easier to trade in paper Gold.

Motley Fool said...

Stu

Do you know why the experienced hands still hang around here?

You will have noticed it is not to engage each other, that happens rarely.

The reason is to assist those who politely ask for help, or engage those who have polite disagreements.

It is fairly clear to me your attitude is that you can learn nothing here, from us.

I have stated a disagreement with you on more than one occasion, and a few times flat out said you were wrong. You have not once to my recollection reacted in the way that someone who is keen to learn reacts. Those ask why, when confronted with such.

Personally I do not pretend to have all the answers, but for you to ask questions combatively with no intent of learning, but only to espouse your own views implies your engagement here will be fruitless for all concerned.

I will end with a zen story I quite like :

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

TF

The Jackalope said...

@Canadaarob Ahhh, the conspiratard response "The numbers are manipulated!!! When they are bad they are right when they are good they are a lie!!" Very convenient, no?

@anand 1 is a fact, 2 and 3 are just like your opinions man.
You should embrace the difference.

@Fool, my point is exactly the opposite, the experienced hands like are long gone, we are left with an echo chamber. Where is costata? Victor the cleaner? They were posters of substance, they are long gone. That said, you are a gentleman and I hope you stick around for quite a while, whether you like my style or not you are clearly a valuable contributer here.

Tommy2Tone said...

Stu,
Obviously you are working Law 39- "Stir up Waters to Catch Fish".

Anyway, I just received my new Freegold Date in the mail.
Even though it makes me swear to secrecy, I'm feelin kinda loose today after reading so many of Stu's intellectual replies and back and forth with Anand, Teon and MF...oh...dooh, wrong reality, sorry.
Anyway, here it is.... get ready Stuey.....



Freegold will arrive next week.


phew, I feel lighter now.

Tommy2Tone said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fftastic said...

@Stu

You should read Motley's analogy again.
It's NOT about Y.O.U.R. point.
Your point is irrelevant to gain perspective!
Actually your point prevents you from seeing clearly.

Here is another analogy for you:

Live is a buffet.
You take what you prefer and leave the rest untouched.

Unknown said...

stu,
"I want a kick ass ranch and a pimped out beach house. yellow rocks are just a means to an end for me."
If the end for you is a kick ass ranch and a pimped out beach house, then yellow rocks are a lousy means to that end. It's way too volatile to buy and hold physical for that purpose. You are better off trading paper gold following the technical. I think what you are in pursuit of is not the same as the rest of us.
I already own a beachfront condo in Miami and a beautiful 11 acres bug out shelter upstate which I seldom use (both are lousy hard assets which don't generate sufficient incomes currently and probably would depreciate after the reset). Should I use my yellow rocks as a means to get a kick ass private jet plane and 30 foot yacht? What if I don't want the jet or yacht? What should I do with my excess incomes?
I'm no giant but I think I'm qualified to be a small jumbo shrimp. I don't need to invest to generate more cash to obtain more toys. I just prefer to preserve the true value of my excess incomes in rocks rather than paper bank CDs, corporate bonds or stocks. Basically, I enjoy watching the changing digitals on my paper statements, but more so I enjoy watching the increasing size of my stack.
Conclusion: If you are a shrimp living paycheck to paycheck, you are wasting your time in this blog. If you are a bigger shrimp which desires more toys and believes the fiat system is healthy, you are wasting your time here.
I can understand that you are a bigger shrimp wondering whether you made unnecessary sacrifices, ranch and beach front home, for the impending reset which hasn't materialized. However, I and probably most others here cannot understand the frustration that yellow rocks are a lousy means to the ranch and beachfront home.

Unknown said...

stu,
"I ask you this. if the Euro starts to disintegrates and the fed does start to raise rates, will you consider that enough to question the validity of the thesis?"
I will start questioning the validity of the thesis when I start believing that the IMF$s is not a Ponzi scheme. When I start believing that the dollar is supported by our manufacturing export rather than financial sectors, or sovereign nations are dumb enough to support the dollar indefinitely, I will dump my rocks. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

Unknown said...

@Random man

If I knew I would die before gold revalues, I would not only get rid of all my rocks, I would start smoking crack, LSD ..... instead of drinking wine.

MatrixSentry said...

I echo judie toy. This is an echo chamber after all.

If the objective is more things sooner, paper is the way to go. Although I am more gratified to see my stack grow higher than I am to see my brokerage account valuation grow, I utilize the paper markets extensively. My game is more for fun than it is to catch up or attain some goal valuation for retirement.

My game: I maintain two brokerage accounts, one as a mandatory 401k through my employer and one that I maintain as an after-tax brokerage. I trade both in an identical manner, except that I do not trade on margin with the 401k. Most of my trades do not require margin, so I open identical positions in both accounts simultaneously. I keep a minimum of 100K in the after-tax brokerage. Whenever I double my money and reach 200K, I sell and buy gold bullion. Rinse and repeat. So I use the paper markets and leverage to trade USD for gold bullion. This satisfies my desire to see my stack grow and it satisfies my inner trader who likes to win. Winning is to take value from someone else in contest. My 401k simply grows.

I have no idea what my 401k is really worth or what kind of value it represents. I cannot touch it for another 13 years minimum. I think very little about it other than I lament that 15% of my total compensation goes into it automatically as a consequence of my labor contract. I have no choice in the matter. I really do not consider it as wealth.

The after-tax brokerage is another story. On a short timeframe I see it as real wealth. It is because I can convert it to gold and possess the bullion. Consequently I worry about it and admire over it often. I spend considerable time generating the best trades possible in order to reach my double as fast as possible. I am currently one successful trade away from my first double of the year. My goal is one double per year, and I might have it by the end of March. Good year so far.

My recommendation for Stu is to get smart and use leverage to attain his goals. I know he won't do this because he doesn't have the skill and the mental discipline. His posts here illustrate that well enough.

I love to trade because I love to win. I love to save as well because I see it as the metric with which my life as a productive human being is measured. The vast majority of my gold will go to my children when I'm gone.

Stu needs to get smart about being the best trader he can be. Time here engaging in pointless banter is being wasted. Time is being wasted responding to him and only encourages him to continue. He is angry that his speculative play in gold hasn't paid off. He is indecisive and it frustrates him.

Final piece of advice for Stu. He should own as much gold as he understands. I do not think he has any real and functioning understanding of gold. Zero understanding requires a 5-10% position in gold IMO. Reference net wealth when computing the 5-10%. So Stu should liquidate the gold down to the minimum and get on with life. He should learn how to trade with leverage. I suggest stock options.

Motley Fool said...

Judie Toy

I just want to note a small objection. I essentially live paycheck to paycheck, since mine is small. My meager savings don't amount to much, this is true.

Still I think that understanding itself is an end in itself. I don't think I have wasted my time.

@Matrix

Lmao. :D

Motley Fool said...

Ps. Some of us live in third world countries with a decided lack of EP, and many of our turns of the screw is rewarded the same as your one.

This is one thing I look forward to under FG, a more equitable distribution of rewards for work done, globally.

MatrixSentry said...

Yes MF, the understanding or our "lens", it opens up a view of many things other than just gold. That cannot be valued as far as I'm concerned. It's priceless. In my case it allowed me to put my anger aside. Funny, I wouldn't have made that connection prior to the enhanced view from the lens. Nor would have I acknowledged the level of anger that I had grown accustomed to living with. I think that is why I smell it on Stu. Been there, done that.

Motley Fool said...

Matrixsentry

Yes. I know that anger. It is debilitating, though one does not realize it as you life with it. With it comes the despair. I am not sure which is worse.

TF

Tommy2Tone said...

"I think that is why I smell it on Stu. Been there, done that."

Tommy2Tone said...

(raising my hand)

Canadarob said...

MF, matrix,
I agree. I even think long term, that knowledge may prove MORE valuable than the revalue of gold. Learning about the exchange rates holding the rest of the world back was quite mind blowing. Finally so many things clicked and made sense. Obviously the world would be connected, but before I saw it as so many independent events that were not correlated.
Like a lot of truths in your life, whatever they may be. Once you see it it cannot be unseen

Canadarob said...

Furthermore. I for one am done addressing or reading stus waste. I hope more will join and he will eventually just leave. This blog is too important and informative to waste any more time on him.
Let's get back to discussing the good stuff.

Muad'Grumps said...

The diehards lack a sliding scale of circumstance. It absolutely all-in and wait no matter how long. Kinda like refusing to live in California for fear of the big one or the Gulf coast for threat of the once-a-century storm. They have no concept of risk mitigation and insist on always be over-insured much to their detriment. You can reasonably assess the risk of a currency event. There are macro indicators a saver/investor can track so to know when it's time to reallocate into metal.

Just wait and see a decade from now after the Purge. The damage this blog has wrought on the believers will be seen. Yes, they will get a windfall, but there is a lot of latent debt capacity sitting over in the billions of peasants in Asia, MENA, SA, and SubSahara. Gold's PP could easily be cut in half within ten years. Not the nominal, the real price even if the BRICS use gold-trade notes and especially if they resort to gold bonds. Think of the heresy--bonds that pay interest in gold.

Why China lowered its gold target? It called talking their book. If you're hot and heavy to build a position in something at a low cost you bad mouth it. And why would China swap all its UST for gold in one fell swoop? They would probably end up with a PP loss since a great portion of the acquired gold would be at stratospheric prices. Stupid. Same reason the whole two-tier gold market hypothesis is silly.

No, we are all on China's timetable. It's divesting UST's by accumulating gold on the cheap, building out the Silk Road and Maritime Route, and now we discover these islands in the shipping lanes.

And now we have Yellen telegraphing a stock market crash coincident with Obama 401k reforms. can you see what's going to happen. 6 Trillion in 401k for 6 T in foreign held Treasuries. March 15th is when the moratorium on the debt ceiling expires. March 11th is the first day on the Economist cover.

Motley Fool said...

FSL

"You can reasonably assess the risk of a currency event. There are macro indicators a saver/investor can track so to know when it's time to reallocate into metal. "

Not this one. It is more akin to your California quake metaphor.

But hey. If you think you can time it, good luck to you.

The rest of your contradictory drivel I am not even going to respond too.

It's not that you are completely ignorant, it is that you are ignorant of how little you understand. That latter combination tends to produce loud confident hilarious nonsense, so thanks for the laughs.

A bit of honest advice, from personal experience : an inflated ego can be a huge barrier to learning.

TF

M said...

@ MatrisSentury

"I love to trade because I love to win"

Can I borrow your monkey and dart board ?

ein anderer said...

»Stuss« is a German synonym for balderdash, nonsense, rubbish or codswallop (Brit.) [sl.].

Canadarob said...

I posted a little while ago about some direction in regard to physical gold shortage. I was wondering if anyone can point me to a post that specifically speaks to this.
Its something that just is not so clear to me.
Thanks

Motley Fool said...

Canadarob

Damn. I've screwed myself into being helpful for a while haven't I? xD

Uhm. Do you mean at the present moment or a general overview or something else?

TF

Motley Fool said...

Canadarob

Damn. I've screwed myself into being helpful for a while haven't I? xD

Uhm. Do you mean at the present moment or a general overview or something else?

TF

Unknown said...

MF,
I apologize if I'd inadvertently come across in any way condescending. I mistakenly thought only people with excess would be interested to save in gold.

Phat Repat said...

"He is angry that his speculative play in gold hasn't paid off. He is indecisive and it frustrates him."

That's the gist of it and likely the vast majority of angry/disillusioned posters are in the same boat. I've stated before, that when FG finally does roll around, very few will be left from the original crew. And none of the recent. ;-)

Canadarob said...

MF.
This was my original post,

"I have another question I hope someone can help me with/direct me to an appropriate post.
I can't seem to really grasp the gold shortage idea.
Is it,
1. More physical being bought than mined?
2. The drain in the etfs that will cause a shock when its run out?
3. As Another said "don't look to what is being bought, look to what has been sold"?

I understand its not the shrimp buying which I get. Is it a combination of what I've listed or is it something I've completely missed.
Please don't respond with rrtfb because I am. Its just a lot of info and its hard to catch it all.
Thanks"

Unknown said...

@Canadarob,

Let me try to answer the questions you posed.

1. Yes, more physical bought than mined. Total mine output is 2,000+ tons (excluding China and Russia, whose output is not sold). Read Koos Jansen at https://www.bullionstar.com for China Non-Governmental purchases. Then add India.

There will be no shock with ETFs, because they can't be drained - for one simple reason - ETFs such as GLD can (and will) pay you out in Cash (it is caled Cash Settlement), NOT Physical Gold/Silver.

3. This is my interpretation - Look to what has been sold ... then look to who bought it .... and what do these buyers do? Do they HOLD the gold or RE-SELL it? This answers the question of - What is the Flow of Gold - how much gold is available for anyone to purchase AT TODAY's COMEX Price?

Canadarob said...

Thanks Daniel.
Doesn't it seem like the physical consumption is pretty close to mine output? Couldn't that drag on for a long time? If the POG keeps dropping that would shut down mines and cause a real shortage but not something I would count on.
Fofoa seems so confident in the shortage and I'm just not seeing it.
I do follow Koos Jansen, it just seems everyone's physical demands are being met. I can see the market is unstable being that its over leveraged in paper gold.
Unstable yes. An immediate shortage threat? I don't get it.
Do you guys see it as the physical flow is only going one way so eventually that's going to be a problem? As opposed to balancing back and forth?

Canadarob said...

I see the revaluation as a high probability in the next 1-3 years but it would be nice to get a firm grip on the shortage part.
I appreciate the help. I'm sure some of you guys have gone over this a number of times.
Thanks

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 400 of 507   Newer› Newest»

Post a Comment

Comments are set on moderate, so they may or may not get through.