Let's take a poll. What is gold? Is it money, currency, an investment or wealth? For clarity, I'll give you my definitions of each with links to some of the posts in which I've used these terms.
Money is credit (i.e., it is the way the economy uses credit balances to lubricate the flow of tradable goods and services).
Currency is what denominates money. It is often issued or at least standardized by the sovereign or a representative of the collective. The private economy trades using mostly credit (money) denominated in these standardized currencies, credit that is issued and cleared by private institutions using the currency itself for clearing. Currency itself also doubles as the "in your hand," "on the run," "money to go" element of the money system, so that discrete (and discreet!) "amounts" of said money-system can be transferred among individuals conveniently while operating temporarily outside of the institutional monetary ledgers. And currency is also exchanged directly with other currencies through a network of currency exchanges, often with the clearing function provided by private institutions, to facilitate equitable trade between regions that use different currencies.
An investment is something that you buy expecting a gain or return. It is a way of putting your money at risk in the hopes of obtaining more money. When an investment reaches an expected "top" or some level of overvaluation based upon the calculations of the investor using common metrics like earnings, interest or the sum value of its components, the rational investor is likely to sell that investment and move the funds into something he deems undervalued at that time.
Wealth is simple. It is literally anything physical that you can possess or at least own unambiguously. Tradable wealth is that which many people value similarly, therefore it is tradable. Durability makes some forms of tradable wealth a better store of value than others which can decay and perish over time. Common forms of durable tradable wealth include fine art, antiques, classic cars and many other collectible hard assets.
My poll is over to the right in the sidebar, and it is open to anyone, even those who have no "gold". I even made it possible to vote for more than one choice, in case you think that gold is two, three or all of the choices.
I cast the first vote on behalf of A/FOA. How did I know their vote? They made it crystal clear in one of their earliest comments:
"Gold is not money, not currency, not an investment, it is wealth."
I think this is the essence of all of this, of Freegold, of (THOUGHTS!), of The Gold Trail, of my blog, the key, if you will, to unlocking the view. But from the last thread of arguments against Freegold, it is obvious that some of you still think gold is just another investment. That's fine, because that's all gold is to almost everyone in the West, so you're certainly not alone in your opinion.
If we could get everyone in the West to vote in this poll, I think "gold is an investment" would win in a landslide. If we could get everyone in the precious metals blogosphere to vote, then "gold is money" would probably win. So, to most Westerners, gold is an investment. To the gold bugs and HMS crowd, gold is money. And to the bullion banks, gold is a currency (ISO code XAU) upon which credit is issued and traded. So what did A/FOA mean by the statement that gold is wealth, not any of these other things? I mean, surely gold is whatever its users think it is, subjective use value and all, right?
Actually, that's exactly right! Gold is whatever its users think it is. And the point A/FOA was driving at was that the vast majority of the above-ground gold, today somewhere around 165,000 tonnes, is held by people who understand it as wealth. And, in fact, the only opinions about what gold actually is that will matter on the day after the Freegold revaluation, the only "votes" that will count, are those who carried (i.e., possessed or unambiguously owned) that gold through the transition.
The real vote for "what is gold", the only "poll" that will matter, will not be like a democratic election with universal suffrage. You'll only get a vote if you have some, and your vote will be weighted by how much you have. This concept is highly relevant to Freegold, especially in the context of the last thread.
Probably (to us) the most relevant conclusion drawn from the abstraction we call Freegold (which is really just the end of the use of gold as a currency denominating credit) is a future gold price that is more than an order of magnitude higher than today's price… in real terms/constant dollars. This is also the conclusion that sprouts most of the arguments against Freegold. And the main argument against such a shocking revaluation is that it won't stick because of supply and demand.
There are two schools of thought on the organic emergence of Freegold. The one that I don't subscribe to is that it will be demand-driven… from the ground up. This school of thought says that we will only see Freegold once the average man on the street understands how precious physical gold really is. It says that the demand for physical gold will someday undergo a phase transition thereby overwhelming the supply flow and bringing us to a new, physical-only price range (in real terms).
The other school of thought, the one that I do subscribe to, is that it will be supply-driven… from the top down. My school of thought says that the average man on the street will only understand how precious physical gold really is after Freegold is revealed in stark relief. It says that the supply flow of physical gold will someday undergo a phase transition whereby it goes into hiding due to the crashing price of its paper proxies. It says that physical gold, during this phase-shift, will further consolidate in the hands of only those who understand it as wealth and nothing else, bringing us to a new, physical-only price range (in real terms).
In future hindsight, looking back on the transition, it may be commonly held as a chicken and egg question as to which came first, the new price range for gold or the change in demand. Cause and effect is sometimes tricky that way. At the top of Moneyness 2 I wrote:
What will change is how we view money and wealth
Everything else in Freegold flows from that!
Everything else in Freegold flows from that!
This is a simple statement of demand-driven cause and effect, but it doesn't say what will cause the change in demand—how we will view money and wealth. For this I think we need to look at the supply side; who will have the gold, whose vote will count when gold is suddenly $55K/ounce (in constant dollars) and the question is asked, what is gold?
Above-Ground Supply
It is actually quite a bit easier for me to describe the people whose view won't change because of Freegold than to convince you of everyone else's view changing because of Freegold. You need only understand the distinctions between the views, what sets them apart, to draw your own conclusions.
It is possible that some of you at this blog who still view gold as an investment may indeed make it to the vote that counts, depending on how it all unfolds. But if you are lucky enough to get there while still clinging to the idea that gold is an investment to be sold at the top, or that "asset allocations under Freegold" should be rebalanced away from "toppy" gold, then your vote will be in the tiny losing minority of those who reacted like lottery winners. But based on some of the comments in the last thread, I bet that most who view gold as an investment will cash in that lottery ticket too soon. And even if that's not you, most others will and will thereby surrender their vote altogether, diminishing that tiny voting block even further.
I want to tell you a story about one of my readers. We'll call him Jumbo Shrimp. Jumbo Shrimp started reading my blog in 2009, and he was one of the very first people to send me a donation when I put up the button that year. It was a sizeable donation, and it was repeated several times. Turns out that Jumbo Shrimp is quite successful as a financial market analyst of sorts. He's about my age, maybe a few years older, but his net worth is around $15 million.
Jumbo Shrimp first got interested in gold almost a decade ago, and he bought himself quite a bit of physical with an average purchase price in the $500s. From what he told me earlier this year, he had accumulated around 1,700 ounces of physical which he kept in his immediate possession. He even sent me a picture of himself holding a 10kg (320 oz.) coin worth about a half million at the time.
We had many conversations over a couple of years. We even talked on the phone occasionally. And one thing I could always tell about Jumbo Shrimp was that, even though he loved my writing, he never quite understood my view. He still thought of gold as an investment, one of many, and he considered the idea that paper and physical could ever diverge leading to a revaluation of physical to be a conspiracy theory. His rationale for owning some physical was simply eliminating counterparty risk on a portion of his "wealth".
As I said, Jumbo Shrimp is a financial market analyst, and his method of analyzing his personal gold investments (which consist of more than just physical) centers on tracking the mining shares. His fundamental operating principle is, in his own words, "Gold stocks ALWAYS lead gold."
Anyway, back in early May I received a flurry of emails from Jumbo Shrimp which also went out to a lot of other people, making a very bold bottom call regarding the miners. I quote from the first email: "As low risk/high return as I have ever seen." He was making a technical call, a buy recommendation, and also putting his own money on the line. Unfortunately it moved decisively in the wrong direction just a day or two later.
I don't know if it was because of his personal stake in it, or from the sting of having made such a bold prediction to so many HNW people that went so wrong, but six days later he threw in the towel on gold, emailing me, "It was a fun ride while it lasted. I sold 95% of my gold at $1,645."
He certainly did make a nice profit. If my math is right, he must have booked a gain of around $1.8M on a physical investment of less than a million. My apologies to Jumbo Shrimp for airing his story, but I think it will be helpful to others and I actually hope that he reads this and reconsiders. He is much luckier than others will be in that it's not too late for him to buy back in.
My point in sharing this story is that calling and then catching the top in gold is a fundamental part of viewing gold as an investment. Jumbo Shrimp was early with his call, but whether the price of "gold" keeps climbing from here or falls off a cliff tomorrow, everyone who views their physical gold as an investment will eventually be put to the test at some point before "the only vote on what gold is that counts", just like Jumbo Shrimp was.
I want you to forget for a moment whether or not you think the Freegold revaluation will actually happen. The question I want to table is simple: If it happens, can it stick long enough for everyone's perception about what gold is to change?
I'll give you a quick "what if" hypothetical scenario to help you visualize the question. It is not important whether this scenario happens because there are many possible scenarios that I can imagine leading to the physical gold revaluation, some quite different from this.
Here's the scenario: Imagine that we have another financial market collapse like September, 2008, only this time the price of gold keeps falling even as there is no physical to be found. The market collapse leads to an emergency print-fest by the USG in an attempt to "stimulate" or shock the economy and markets back to life. Trading is stopped to interrupt the free fall atmosphere. "Gold's" free fall is stopped at $500 per ounce and over the next few weeks, anyone holding a claim that was previously exchangeable for physical gold is cash settled in the spirit of fairness. At the next quarter-end MTM party we find out that the Eurosystem has marked its gold reserves at the equivalent of $55K per ounce in constant dollars. We also find out that this price (in real terms) was derived by averaging actual trades mediated by the BIS and ECB during the blackout after the paper markets crashed.
So we have a sudden step up in the (real) price of physical gold from $500 to $55,000 dollars. It is basically an "overnight" revaluation, even though it wasn't literally overnight, because $500 was the only known price in the interim. Any trades of physical gold that happened during the interim ("gold in hiding" period) happened locally and did not affect the price of gold because it was technically frozen at $500.
I'm happy to conclude that this news (the new MTM price) will be a shock to almost everybody, especially to those who missed out on the revaluation, and that their initial reaction to the shock will certainly not be to rush out and buy tiny gold bars at $55K per ounce. That particular change in demand will take some time to manifest in any scenario I can imagine. So I think it is really more a question of supply as to whether this new price range can stick in the immediate aftermath.
And this brings us to the vote for what gold is! The two main contenders will be 'investment' and 'wealth', because those choices represent the two competing schemes of action that will be faced by those who actually did participate in the revaluation by carrying physical gold through the storm, and who therefore get a vote. In fact, action is the voting method, which is precisely why only those with gold will get a vote.
For example, those who somehow made it through the revaluation process while still thinking gold is an investment will, upon seeing it gap up from $500 to $55,000, either cash it in like a lottery ticket or at least rebalance their investment portfolio away from gold. And if too many people do this all at once, supply will flood the newborn physical-only market and the new price range could falter unless the Giants and CBs step in with unlimited demand. It is possible that the Giants and CBs would do this, but the point of this exercise is to explain why they won't have to.
Those who understand that gold is wealth, on the other hand, will react differently. People with durable, tradable wealth generally have everything else that they need. Wealth is what you buy with your excess. And if you need to tap into that wealth, for whatever reason, to support or improve your lifestyle, then you sell it in drips and drabs as needed. Or, if your wealth preferences change, you can also trade wealth for different wealth. So here we have three actions that the wealthy take with their wealth. They accumulate it, they sell it in drips and drabs for consumption purposes, or they trade it for other wealth.
I'm sure this seems like a ridiculous distinction to those of you who view everything as an investment. That's really a Western shrimp perspective, and I think it's probably why you are struggling to understand Freegold. So let's take a closer look at it from a couple different angles. Michael H pointed us to this comment from FOA just the other day:
FOA (12/13/99; 19:15:01MDT - Msg ID:20954)
Comment
Mr Gresham (12/12/99; 14:04:52MDT - Msg ID:20807)
" " "Econ 675, Advanced Graduate Level Money and International Banking: Market Disequilibrium Scenarios, otherwise known as USAGold Forum" " "
-------------
Hello Mr. G,
Ha! Ha! That is some class you are taking. One of the things Another wanted to accomplish is happening. That being, getting Western citizens to reconsider exactly what gold was in the eyes of other real people. In order for that to happen, people had to understand the evolving modern politics of gold and how it has created a "New Gold Market". One far different from the one goldbugs of the 70s had grown to know and love.
In the beginning, many readers had no basis for comparison when reading most of Another's Thoughts. Yet, we walk this evolutionary trail of gold today with eyes wide open and better able to grasp the impossible road ahead.
Onward:
I have seen one sure sign that Westerners don't really know what has happened to their wealth. This is demonstrated when one "bemoans the loss of good times" if gold goes very high. It comes across the same every time; " " "if gold goes to $30,000 we won't have a dime and everything will fall apart" " ". Well, Another made his point that the dollar said your wealth was worth more than it really was. Let me demonstrate.
Like this:
Ever been to a high priced auction. They bring out the "Strad" violin and start bidding at $500,000. After a while it goes for $1 million flat and it's over. After that we listen to the perceptions around the room.
One guy in the back, who has 10 million cash, thinks the Strad was cheap at one mill and will pick one up next year. In fact he may get ten if they are offered. Some rich woman has 3 million and she figures her wealth is equal to three "violins" if she ever wanted them.
All around the room the feelings are the same as perhaps 100 million in assets are represented. They all equate their buying power to this one auction. Even though only one walked away with physical, everyone knows they are "strad rich" in wealth. Each goes home for the evening cognac and relishes in this knowledge. Their lifelong effort of hard work and shrewd investing has positioned them to own the wealth of many rare violins. Life is good, very good.
The one problem with all of this is that they based their "wealth holdings" on the outcome of just one auction. Truly, had they all bid, the violin would have gone for much more and their wealth would seem "not so much".
In much the same way our world of dollar assets carries the same risk. All of us stand in the same world auction room and watch the daily bidding for goods and services. We watch the prices of cars, gas, houses, clothes, etc. and conclude our wealth balances based on what we could acquire at this auction should we choose to bid. We see our economy in a light of infinite goods and services but fail to balance this with the potential of others to bid, "in mass". In this light, few have a valid perception of just how many dollar assets are out there. Indeed, without this grasp of "dollar inflation" we blindly consider our wealth and position in life using the present price structure of "things". A system in which we trade paper IOUs of infinite number for real things of finite number.
So, our belief that life is good, largely rest not on the confidence in the dollar. Nor is it in the confidence that others will value and accept our dollars. Life is good, because all of us do not "bid" at the same time! If we did, our life would not be as good as our dollar wealth says it is!
This is the deception in our Western grasp of what wealth is. Our life savings are valued at what they can buy today, even though, in reality it is based on an unknown purchase price in the future. Just as all of the wealth at the violin auction was a phantom in self delusion, so too is our present good life and bank account numbers. The evolution of a people that once gripped gold for the real wealth money it was, has proceeded to the hoarding of bookkeeping entries of account credits. History has proven that once humans begin to question the value of this dollar "wealth owed them at a future unknown price" they run a race to outspend their loved brothers. Buying goods now at the "known" price quickly balances the books so no one is any longer fooled. The currency equivalents remain as a trading medium, even as real things are held in the background for value proof.
No, a high price of gold will not rob us of our wealth. It will rob us of this perception of money value that was but an illusion in the clouds. Wealth for tomorrow is found in this context for today; one cannot lose something they never owned. Buying physical gold at today's prices ($200 to $500) will not help you maintain this modern illusion of wealth we never had. But will allow us to later spend the true value of gold that presently exists today. A value few will accept or believe.
Thank you all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,FOA
FOA made some great points in that comment, but I want to draw your attention to one that I think was inadvertently made. The reaction of the millionaires observing the "Strad auction" illustrates the paradoxical nature of Giffen or Veblen goods which seem to violate the economic law of demand. These observers didn't have their own Strads, but as the price rose and the auction settled, they instinctively imagined buying their own Stradivarius and they also considered their own wealth in Strad terms—how many Strads they could buy.
These types of goods are sometimes called positional goods or status goods. It has been observed that rather than people diversifying away from these goods or substituting other goods as the price rises, the opposite tends to occur with world-class durable, tradable and collectible wealth items.
You've probably heard of the wealth effect as it was applied to the housing bubble. It says that people tend to spend more when they actually are richer, objectively, or when they perceive themselves to be richer. The point here is that the behavioral change effect comes from the perception of wealth, not the liquidation of wealth.
Imagine a painting that was purchased for $10 million and sold a decade later for $100 million. We have seen a rise in the price of fine art over the last few years, so why haven't we seen all fine art flood the market like a bunch of lottery tickets trying to get cashed in? When a wealth item like that rises in value and that new value is revealed at the margin (the auction house), the wealthy people holding similar items simply feel a little more wealthy. But they understand that wealth is not a lottery ticket. Perhaps some people view fine art as an investment, but not the majority, otherwise we'd observe something different than what we've observed.
The point is that Giants, who hold a good portion of that 165,000 tonnes of above-ground gold, view physical gold as wealth and not as an investment. No matter where the price goes, they will not sell it en masse, or even in mass. They already have everything they need to live an exceptional life style and they understand that the best way to dishoard wealth is in drips and drabs over time as needed or as individual preferences change.
But we are not all Giants, are we? Some of us are likely to want to "upgrade" our lifestyle if our gold is suddenly revalued, right? Will we do so in drips and drabs as needed, or will we decide to dump it all at once to catch the top and lock in our profit? Well, let's look at this "upgradable lifestyle" portion of the vote. In the West it will be an extremely tiny contingent. In Eastern countries like India, it is likely to be a fairly large contingent.
First the West. When I say tiny, I'm talking about maybe one person in a million tiny. Someone who has, say, 2% to 5% of his wealth/savings in physical gold—and is able to hold strong through the transition without cashing in that lottery ticket or panicking out along the way—is really only going to stay even or see a small gain (e.g., see Michael H's revaluation/rebalancing exercise here). So in this Western group of "voters" who will be faced with the choice of drips and drabs versus all at once lottery ticket are really only those who have a substantial enough portion of their wealth in physical gold that they will see what could be considered a life-changing windfall profit.
The bottom line is that this Western group is too tiny to even matter in the final vote for "what gold is" after the transition. And the dynamics of the transition will likely shake out all but the strongest hands which are more likely to consider gold to be wealth like the Giants do.
In the East they already view gold as wealth. So even though they will have the ability to improve their standard of living, they will likely continue to accumulate, only choosing to dishoard as needed. This would be a good question for Anand. How many of the gold holders in India do you think consider gold to be wealth versus how many consider it an investment that you should dump at the top? And how will the average Indian react to a gold revaluation? Will she sell it all at once and live large like a lottery winner? Will she sell a little in drips and drabs as needed to improve her quality of life? Or will she continue to accumulate while feeling (knowing she is truly) wealthy?
I suppose it will depend on each person's individual circumstances, but we generally aspire to that which is already present in our vicinity. So I can imagine that a general improvement in the standard of living in India would play out more gradually than it would for, say, an American lottery winner or an NFL draft pick.
So who else is there on the supply side that will get a vote on what gold is? Oh, yeah, the central banks! They use/view gold as a reserve asset, which is to the monetary system as wealth is to the individual. So I don't think we have to worry about them dumping their gold like an investment "to catch the top".
I guess that about covers all those whose opinion will matter (except maybe governments, but we'll get to them in a moment). The opinion of those who don't carry above-ground gold through the transition won't matter, but it will be forced to change specifically because it won't matter! Think about that while we move on to gold in the ground.
Gold in the Ground
While there are an estimated 165,000 tonnes of above-ground gold, each and every bit owned by someone, a recent estimate revealed known and recoverable in-ground deposits to be another 67,500 tonnes spread out all over the world.
The distribution of these in-ground deposits is as follows:
North America 34%
South America 17%
Europe 2%
Africa 17%
Russia/Asia 17%
Australia 12%
The average rate of extraction for the last five years, according to the WGC, has been 2,602.2 tonnes per year.
One of the arguments against Freegold is that all of this mining supply, if it went to market at $55,000 per ounce (or thereabouts), would constitute a dump requiring an offsetting demand of $4.6 trillion per year (in real terms—global net production) to maintain that price. This is a powerful argument that, in my opinion, deserves some more discussion.
To understand the counterargument, there are a couple of things you need to know about the differences between in-ground gold and above-ground gold. First of all, gold that is still in the ground is not worth as much as gold that has already been mined. Gold in the ground is worth the market price of above-ground gold minus the cost of pulling it out of the ground and then refining it. The second thing is that, while every bit of above-ground gold is owned by someone, the ownership of in-ground gold is not what you think, especially in extremis. Let me explain.
It is a pure illusion today that the owners of mines also own the gold in the ground under their mines. It is an anachronism, a relic of a bygone era and it can only last as long as the price of gold and the cost of extraction are in relatively close proximity. Here's what ANOTHER had to say about it:
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 15:09
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
The governments will revalue gold and "demand" that the public carry it and use it! It will be the source of all gold, the mines, that will be controlled! That's Controlled, with a capital "C", not confiscated!
When confronted with the argument that governments are slow-moving leviathans and will therefore be slow to tax the mines with some sort of windfall profits tax, FOA remarked:
FOA (6/7/99; 7:45:04MDT - Msg ID:7282)
Steve, on this issue, they will move no slower than with the speed of one who finds a gold coin upon a sidewalk!
FOA
Mining companies are sitting ducks. Hat tip to reader "B" for this recent quote from Doug Casey:
"All the governments in the Western world are really bankrupt and are, therefore, going to be looking for more tax revenue. Mining companies are going to be in its sights because mining companies can't move their assets; they are the easiest thing in the world to tax. The good news is that makes mining stocks very volatile, and sometimes extremely cheap. Volatility can be your best friend."
Mmm, cheap and volatile thanks to being sitting ducks for the government! Here's some more FOA:
FOA (10/25/99; 19:57:57MDT - Msg ID:17447)
reply
elevator guy (10/23/99; 21:30:08MDT - Msg ID:17282)
@FOA
Why will gold stocks be a risky place to be?
Hello elevator guy,
We have covered this area many times before. Simply put, when this new gold market runs as never before seen, shares will under perform bullion because they only represent the ownership of a business not money reserves. As a mining business, they must overcome the negative effects of a banking crisis, massive cost inflation and taxes old and new. Their dividends will never return the equivalent of the increase in bullion nor will the equity. Most investors do not retain a good historical perspective between government confiscation and government regulation. Production regulation and taxation are a different control of mine reserves that greatly impacts stock values. Many stock promoters often try to inject the "confiscation issue" as one for bullion holders while ignoring this other dynamic as it pertains to mine shares. The race will be for bullion and large international players will discount the leverage of mine reserves in terms of the crisis financial atmosphere they must invest in.
Even so, some mines will be sought after as they will be perceived as the best positioned of the lot and the last to be interfered with.
Anyway, it's a long hard subject that many will pay dearly for as this transition proceeds.
We will talk again on this. FOA
Imagine if the mine owners actually had as strong of a claim on the minerals under their mines as most people think they do today. With a market price of $55,000 and an extraction cost of only $1,500 or less they could literally "spare no expense" on all the modern mining technology and equipment needed to blast and dig those lottery tickets out of the ground and cash them in as fast as possible! They'd surely run up the extraction rate a bit and put a strain, if not an outright crash, on that Freegold price range.
But they don't have that strong of a claim. The sovereign or the collective (i.e., the government) does. The catch word here, a word you will learn more about, is "royalties". It's not unlike the oil in the ground that the House of Saud allows American oil companies to extract and bring to market in exchange for… royalties.
Even at today's price of only about $1,700 per ounce, some in government already have their fast eye on FOA's "gold coin upon a sidewalk"!
Levy on gold could be budget windfall, U.S. lawmakers say
WASHINGTON | Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:49pm EST
(Reuters) - Revising a 19th-century U.S. law that governs the mining of gold and other precious metals could add billions of dollars to federal coffers at a time of tight budgets, according to some Democratic lawmakers and a government study released on Wednesday.
Taxpayers receive no royalties on metals pulled from federal land, and officials drew a blank when they tried to find out how much gold, silver, copper and other valuable metal is sold.
"Federal agencies generally do not collect data from hardrock mine operators," said the report from the nonpartisan Government Accountability Office, which looked at the market in 2010 and 2011.
But applying a metals levy of 12.5 percent - the benchmark government share for other resources - could deliver hundreds of millions of dollars a year to taxpayers, according to independent studies and U.S. Representative Raul Grijalva, who sought the report and other data from the mining industry.
"As we face these fiscal challenges, these are the pennies that we should pinch," said Grijalva, the leading Democrat on the panel that oversees public lands.
Grijalva, of Arizona, and Senator Tom Udall of New Mexico, who jointly called for the GAO report, say taxpayers should also benefit from a gold price surge that has boosted the bottom line for miners.
Applying Grijalva's royalty formula on the 1.1 million ounces of yellow metal pulled last year from Goldstrike mine in Nevada, the largest in North America, could have yielded $150 million to taxpayers, according to a Reuters tally of industry data.
Barrick Gold Corp (ABX.TO), the mine operator, said only a fraction of Goldstrike is on federal land, and the company's taxes have already quadrupled in the five years of climbing gold prices.
Taxpayers are entitled to a royalty from metal sales nevertheless, lawmakers said.
[…]
NO-ROYALTY RULE
The 1872 mining law that drove prospectors into western states such as California still governs much of the industry.
But this no-royalty law is a costly anachronism when mining giants can stake a claim on federal land for a few dollars an acre, Udall said. The coal, oil and gas industries, by comparison, have no such exemption.
"We are giving our gold and silver for free and don't even know how much we are giving," said Udall, whose father, Stewart, was secretary of the Interior during the 1960s and called mining law reform his great unfinished work.
Lawmakers who have occasionally tried to reform the mining rules have never cleared all the hurdles to pass new laws, as the industry has strong political allies.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Democrat, counts on mining support in his home state of Nevada, and lawmakers say it will be difficult to persuade him to take a bite out of the industry.
But on Wednesday, the two top senators on the Energy and Natural Resources Committee said they were open to considering reform.
"There's been agreement for a long time that the 1872 Mining Law should be updated to include a royalty" and reduce paperwork, said Senator Lisa Murkowski, the panel's top Republican.
[…]
State and local governments often catch a windfall from mining revenue, and Udall said Republican lawmakers from the West might be persuaded to increase the federal take.
"Everyone agrees we need a balanced package to find new revenue," he said, "and this seems like the right time for reform."
So the "production regulation and taxation" of the mines as FOA put it, or "Control with a capital 'C'" as Another said, will effectively transfer the vote for "what gold is after the revaluation" from the mine owners to the sovereign or the collective (i.e., the governments of the world). Will the governments of the world view gold as an investment or a lottery ticket? Or will they view it as a wealth reserve/monetary reserve asset? This is the question that you need to answer for yourself. I know my answer.
From FOA above:
"The currency equivalents remain as a trading medium, even as real things are held in the background for value proof."
Currency issuing governments like the USG can simply spend money into existence. The credibility of this common government system is generally maintained by three government abilities—the ability to tax, the ability to borrow and the ability to sell off or rent out public assets. To such an entity, the differences between windfall profits taxing gold miners and selling off public gold that is already in the vault are minimal. So if you believe that they will let all that newly mined gold hit the market for just a little extra revenue, you should also believe that they will simply sell their existing gold reserves outright in exchange for the same cash that they can print.
You see, a functioning printing press is infinitely more valuable than gold. Gold, as FOA said, is simply "held in the background for value proof." I can, however, imagine that a country like the US would want to keep its mining companies well-oiled and properly maintained. But that can be achieved by simply transferring in-ground reserves to the vault at some regulated pace.
A country like Canada which has more than 13,000 tonnes of in-ground reserves (the most of any country) and yet only has 3.4 tonnes in the vault would likely transfer at a higher pace than the USG which has a better balance between above- and below-ground reserves. But this transfer of gold from the ground to the vault would not pass through the gold market, even though the government would pay the mine owner the market price and then tax back most of the profit.
Similar principles apply to governments that are not currency issuers, like those in the Eurosystem, in that there is little difference between selling gold in the vault and selling gold in the ground via windfall profits taxes on the miners. One difference could be that, because of their membership in the Eurosystem, they cannot unilaterally choose to sell gold in the vault. But remember from the illustration above that Europe only has 2% of those global in-ground deposits. So even if half of those countries used their in-ground gold as a lottery ticket, that would only represent an additional flow of about 26 tonnes per year hitting the market. An amount that small could, and most likely would, be directly absorbed by the ECB.
I hope I've shown you that it doesn't matter what the rate of extraction will be in Freegold. It could be the same, higher or lower than today. All that matters is how much of that newly-mined gold is dumped onto the market like a winning lottery ticket, relative to the demand.
So let's take a poll. What is gold? Is it money, currency, an investment or wealth? What will your vote be when the time comes? And will you even have a vote?
Sincerely,
FOFOA
245 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 245 of 245Costata,
Disclosure on where my info comes from, there is no need to be too spooky about it:
1) one of the English "old boys" networks. What I would call "town and country" money, mostly 7 figure but a few 8 figure fortunes, and they do talk about it a lot, esp. psychological approaches and tax. Overwhelming sense of conservatism/responsibility. Gold is there but definitely on the fringes.
2) 20 years of mostly legal/financial translating focused on NW Europe, multiple languages: private wealth management /holding companies, divorce/prenups, joint ventures, internal EU stuff, internal Euro bank stuff. Big real estate deals. Slender link to a couple of royal contexts and quite a few Central Asian / Arab oil / resource people using EN as a lingua franca to communicate with Europeans. Nearly all "private", i.e. not quoted cos.
3) Also a medic for a while.
That's it.
PS Costata
In context 2) they never mention gold in contractual-type documentation, but in freer discussions it is mentioned as a component, especially in Germany (hence my banging on about rebalancing). Perhaps interestingly, in the last 10 years EUR cash is often treated as if it were hard/sustainable money, hugely different from the way GBP and USD are discussed in the relevant contexts. Prior to that, the local currencies (DEM, FRF etc.) were not approached in the same way. I used to think this was naivety, but I am beginning to wonder. You guys know why, of course.
Tyrannyofthepresent,
Thanks for the outline. You've been busy. We'll talk further about the matters that you raised earlier. I have a few family commitments and some paperwork to get through over the Christmas-New Year break but one of the projects I'm set upon is to copy all of your comments to date into a single document.
Then I want to try to isolate and describe the key issues in terms that others here can relate to. To put those issues into the context of a Euro Freegold-RPG architecture. I'm also anticipating that some of the lines of discussion here will naturally touch on your areas of interest.
There's another issue on my mind as well. I think that some analysts aren't aggregating their economic actors and their sectors/groupings correctly. For example some folks tend to talk in nation state terms. "America does this or America does that". Whereas in many cases IMHO we should talk about the American government, the banking system and the American private sector as three discreet sectors in the economy with different (conflicting?) interests and incentives.
Failing to delineate these sectoral groupings correctly can lead us astray. People may be tempted, for example, to ask: How does this anticipated gold revaluation benefit Americans? And the answer could be: It won't, therefore they won't allow it to happen.
Obviously, I think this question should be broken into three parts. You could, perhaps, use this approach to a revaluation of both gold and silver and get different answers for each metal.
I have to log off now.
Cheers
spaul67,
Thanks for that response on rebalancing. I have been plotting GSR against different things for 5 years. The one you mentioned, like most of the ones I have calculated, is flawed due to the inclusion of the USD as an element. One could speculate on why it has "worked" so well; I already have several versions of it. GSR also moves inversely to the Treasury yield and Brent, I know.
Now write the USD out of the equation. What is left?
As for the Ponzi value, I have been there too: its main problems include resource nationalisation, perceived SOV value to rich investors and the refusal of gold in particular to behave like a commodity at all, at certain times and in certain places. And the link to the relative value of crude.
This can become insanely complex. Consider also that the current values of the USD, XAG and XAU are all derived from manipulated, politically driven markets off undisclosed stocks and flows, while the other resource flows driving the system (oil/gold/silver/other) are partly occult. But this situation is overlaid with actors who believe in an efficient market and trying to behave rationally, or momentum speculating.
Plus one's own psychological vulnerability as an actor trying to make sense of these nonsense figures and no doubt sometimes believing the lies or being swayed by the mood.
No, it's a weight ratio for me.
FOFOA/others
I have one question.
I think there is no way on earth all currencies and physical metal can go down simultaneously. This is my hypothesis (may be conjecture -- not sure!)
So something should go up when dollar/pound collapses, paper gold is burnt, physical gold disappears and other currencies/metal devalue.
What will go up during that time?
Costata,
All my comments into a single doc? Enough to strike terror nto the heart of a chronic bloviator. Still, looking forward to your insights at any time. This is a long game.
vizeet srivastava,
What will go up, the cost of real goods, no?
FOFOA,
1500pg archive, I'm excited!
Tyrannyofthepresent,
Re. "Gold is there but definitely on the fringes."
above at 11:50 PM to Costata.
Am interested to know what would get these guys to panic in to Gold! After 11 years of consistent (say) 17%/yr. performance in US$ which I am sure beats most of their other investment or wealth preservation plays, what on earth are they all waiting for?
All the re-balancing talk is surely for the birds if you are not already 'in' ??
Am amazed that conservative big shrimps are not at least 5-10% in Gold already.... thanks for some probably fascinating insight.
ChrisF,
One reason only: they follow "expert" advice and the "experts" are clueless, interested or most often both.
A PIIG
I think there should be something that can be stored for longer time and sold back at good price. Antiques may be one. But gold should be similar to antique during the crisis time. I should be able to auction is good price. Not sure which will be better -- antique or gold.
FOFOA
I read **Think like a Giant**. Great writeup as always.
I think the problem is not unique to big giants. The problem is same for little giants. They don't know what to do with the money they have. They want to hide it from others. They can't put their money in banking system because they don't pay taxes or they don't want to put everything in bank.
They can't buy land because the landowners are powerful and can take away his land at will or through system. System is not so transparent in those areas. They also need to save for their daughter's marriage. So the wealth just gets transferred over generations.
They also want to maintain low profile but secure their future.
Vizeet
The value will collapse into gold. Just because you will be outbid in buying any does not mean you could not liberate some value from gold if you choose and circumstances dictate.
TF
Todays Giants have learned from the boastful ways of their ancestors to keep a very, very low profile.
Note that in days of past, a Roth would boast, "Give me control of nation's money and I care not who makes its laws."
But today a Roth only speaks of philanthropic goodness, and their great concern over the tribulations of the poor.
Yes, they are worried of 6 billion pitchforks. Even NATO and MOSSAD withers before the mass of 99% global civil outrage.
It is perhaps the morality of giants that is the most difficult to understand. Another did seem to have honor for family and country, and he was surely a board member at least of the BIS.
I think it was when he said "our CBs" that gave it away.
MF,
As in value flows THROUGH currencies but (collapses) INTO gold :)
Merry Xmas!
I have been watching bullion inventory of APMEX over the last 24 hours. It seems it dropped by about 10%.
What is funny to note is that they are willing to buy their own brand bullion bars for a price about 3% higher than the current spot (paper gold) price.
Is it "speculative" to buy gold, if one can see a world of develeraging unfolding, and understands no currency is allowed to strengthen against consumer goods?
ChrisF,
In addition to the relevant FOA quote above, here is more in response to your comments on the previous thread:
December 18, 2012 7:47 AM
What exactly is this 'paper gold' that will never exist again? .... because after FG I have a major need to hedge my diverse global assets against that ultimate SoV and UoA, gold. So, I will go long gold futures versus all the relevant MoEs that my businesses are involved with. Clearly there must be a market post FG in these instruments. Since we are talking futures, by definition they will be on margin @(say)10%.
My counter-party is then short gold vs. MoEs on margin.
Should these hedges prove successful, and on close-out of the contracts, I would take the MoE cash profits and simply buy gold from the friendly central bank or their agents.
December 18, 2012 8:40 AM
My factory in Nigeria produces widgets which we also export to L.America invoicing in US$.
My shareholders (owners) only care about gold as a UoA and the Nigerian MoE and US$ are both weak and unstable vs. gold. I perceive a need to hedge my 6 month forward income stream and the original capital investment against further MoE weakening vs. gold. Thus a legitimate business need for a paper position as described above.
The paper gold that, for sure, will never exist again is fractionally-reserved gold-oz denominated deposit accounts at bullion banks. That type of paper gold is a synthetic supply of gold.
As for the futures gold market, it is not quite so clear-cut. I think it will also cease to exist but it is a more difficult case to make. I will come back to this.
As to your ‘legitimate business need’ for paper gold hedges, let’s do some substitution:
#1
My factory in Nigeria produces widgets which we also export to L.America invoicing in US$.
My shareholders (owners) only care about buying a huge yacht this year as a UoA and the Nigerian MoE and US$ are both weak and unstable vs. huge yachts. I perceive a need to hedge my 6 month forward income stream and the original capital investment against further MoE weakening vs. yachts.
#2
My factory in Nigeria produces widgets which we also export to L.America invoicing in US$.
My shareholders (owners) only care about profit and the Nigerian MoE and US$ are both weak and unstable vs. each other. I perceive a need to hedge my 6 month forward income stream against further MoE weakening vs. the currency my expenses are denominated in
So here is how I see it: case #2 describes a legitimate business need, where the currency of the income stream fluctuates against the currency of the expenses, and the former comes in much later than the later go out. Thus a small exchange rate fluctuation could wipe out the firm’s profits. It is a ‘legitimate business need’ to give up some of those profits (hedges are never free) in order to guard against the risk of a larger loss.
But case #2 does not describe a ‘legitimate business need’. There is no ‘yacht futures market’ to ensure that businessmen get to lock in their yacht prices well in advance of purchase. If you want the yacht and you’re afraid prices will rise substantially, then you take out a currency loan (giving up profits in the form of interest payments) and buy the yacht now. You can even do it ‘on margin’ with only a down payment.
Continued …
(1/2)
Another point you raise is the need to hedge the original capital investment against gold. I don’t see this as a ‘legitimate need’ either. Rather, it is opportunity cost. As in: say you want to buy a factory but you don’t have enough cash on hand. You do own a large yacht, however. You reluctantly sell your yacht to buy the factory, and if you’re lucky you’ll be able to afford two yachts with the profits. But you can’t have your cake and eat it too, meaning you can’t keep both the yacht and buy the factory.
Back to the likely fate of the gold futures market: the entities that do have legitimate needs for gold futures markets are those that produce and handle gold. Just like a small currency fluctuation could wipe out the factory’s profits in example #2 above, so can a small variation in the gold price swing the value of a gold-handling firm’s inventory and work-in-progress to a degree that it wipes out the profit.
But while this is a legitimate need currently filled by the futures market, it must not necessarily remain so. Perhaps after the revaluation firms will instead sell their inventory and WIP as ‘unallocated pooled accounts’ similar to the Perth Mint, and perhaps miners will forward-sell directly to their governments and thus bypass their needs for a hedging market.
(2/2)
Tyrannyofthepresent,
From your comment on December 18, 2012 9:51 AM:
On not debating, I mentioned above what appears to be a "double bind" approach in relation to silver inventories. If these are high it means silver is a plentiful commodity and the shortage story is rubbish. If they are low it means there is not enough silver for the coveted "high stock to flow useless asset" status that allows only gold to be the premium store of value.
This "damned if there is, damned if there isn't" approach may reveal prejudice or a view that is no longer up for true discussion.
There are two separate issues in the ‘supply of silver’:
The first is that there is no shortage of above-ground silver to meet existing demand. See, for example, this post by Bron. This is in contrast to claims that ‘SLV has no silver’ or ‘silver supplies are very tight’ etc. etc. that you read on the blogosphere.
The second issue is that there is not enough supply of aboveground silver relative to silver flow to make silver an attractive alternative to gold as the focus point of the new monetary system. That is the point of the Mencius Moldbug piece, On monetary restandardization.
In this post at Screwtape Files, Slow Loris Larry estimates that there is 4 times as much above-ground silver as there is gold (100k tons in bullion / coinage form and 500k tons in silverware / art form). Annual silver mine production is ~24k tons, while annual gold mine production is 2,700 tons.
Thought experiment: say the world chooses to base the new monetary system on silver instead of gold. What happens?
As a very rough guess, let’s say silver goes to 1/4 of our expected gold revaluation (not that this is a valid assumption, but it is a starting point). So silver goes to $15,000 per ounce.
The annual silver mine production is ~10 times that of gold, while the above ground stocks are only 4 times. That means that the issue that AD raised about absorbing the newly-mined gold in freegold is much more serious for freesilver. Could silver mines be controlled in the same way as gold mines?
Further, only 100k tons of silver are in investment form. In freesilver, central banks now need to buy up a reserve of silver, and quickly, as well as building infrastructure for the storing thereof. As such, a substantial portion of the 500k tons of silverware and art silver might hit the market at once.
Any industrial user of silver is now priced out of the market, and substitute materials must be found.
If you think a 20-30 revaluation of gold would be tumultuous, how do you think a 300-400x revaluation of silver would go?
You might recognize some of these anti-freesilver arguments as the same anti-freegold arguments but applied to silver, but it should be evident that each of these arguments is much stronger when applied to silver than when applied to gold.
I would like to add my thoughts regarding the wealth versus investment discussion. I of course answered that gold is wealth in the poll. I believe that as strongly as I believe most anything these days. It is clear to me that there are people here, especially the relatively recent visitors, who view it differently, more in line with a speculative investment. After all, I myself spent a couple of years reading this blog, without commenting, believing my gold investments were the best leveraged speculative play available. At that time I had no physical gold whatsoever and was entirely invested in gold derivatives. I made a killing up to 2008 and after taking a rather nasty haircut, I had largely battled back to pre-2008 breakeven.
My thinking at the time was that it sure would be nice if this Freegold stuff ended up happening because it would allow me to quit digging ditches in the futures and options market. I clearly did not believe that Freegold was certainly going to happen, merely that it could. Physical gold was something that I was going to have to tolerate (abandoning short term leverage) in order to hedge the near term onset of Freegold. I decided I needed some physical gold and I bought my first bullion coins.
I inadvertently followed the advice found here at this blog, I bought as much as understood. My understanding was rudimentary by some standards, so my initial allocation was modest. I needed a number because I feel safe with numbers and technical analysis. I said "what the Hell, why not use that wonderful $55,000 an ounce figure?" So I started with that figure and calculated what I would need in physical gold to 100% hedge the collapse of my paper gold and derivative positions. At this time I considered this to be a highly leveraged speculative play similar to a way out of the money call option.
A funny thing happened. After purchasing that gold, my interest in understanding Freegold went to another level. FOFOA's focus on the users, the ants, giants and the super-organism, really set the wheels in motion. Freegold became something real and tangible for me rather than an abstraction. In short order I concluded that my allocation was now woefully insufficient in relation to my understanding.
What to do?
Years ago I made a lump sum calculation with the following assumptions:
1. Working to age 60
2. Draw down of retirement to age 85, then death
3. Annual income (draw down) at 65% of non-retirement level income
4. Zero annual real yield for 25 years for lumps sum principal
5. Die with $0
Then I charted that lump sum in relation to ounces of gold at various valuations. At $55,000 an ounce in real purchasing power it became quite apparent that I already had more than enough investments, if converted to physical ounces, to accomplish my goal. What about gold valued at $25,000. $10,000? My chart gave me a running evaluation of required ounces all the way down to the present price of gold. Clearly at the current valuation of gold I did not have enough gold, and somewhere between the current price and $55,000 I hit the magic number exactly.
(cont.)
I increased my allocation to 100% physical gold. I was no longer a speculator playing the leverage game. I had become a saver. In fact my plan was to continue saving until I drove the required price of gold to reach my figure down to the present price. At that level I am simply a saver. I want the return of my capital first and foremost, any appreciation is gravy.
Once where I was gloomy on days where the gold price was hammered, I now became quite giddy. Amazing what you can do with excellent credit, very low interest rates, and passion for TA. I love buying gold on sale with someone else's money! It is an amazing world where I can possess physical gold in return for a promise to deliver credit money in the future for payment. My TA generated buy signals and I ignored the sell signals. No more tension associated with the sale. Every trader knows it is far easier to buy than to sell. I still had the thrill of the kill, that I must say I am addicted to, yet I could take it easy and focus on the bigger picture in life.
So am I a speculator and is gold an investment to me? Nope. It is my opinion that matters, others will have a differing opinion that more closely resembles their thinking if they were in my shoes. I am working hard and producing far more than I consume. I am doing this because I want my gold holdings to represent savings, not a leveraged play that will result with Freegold. I could throttle back now and count on even a modest valuation for gold, say $5000 - $10,000 an ounce. My thinking is that of a saver, I have not saved enough yet.
Do I believe gold will reach the fabled Freegold valuation? Absolutely! What will I do with all the surplus purchasing power? I will give it away! That is what I would like to do as my retirement job. The higher the gold valuation the more I get to give away. What fun! For me to diversify a portion of my holdings into something other than gold is to deprive someone else of a future gift! That simply will not do.
So to be specific, I want and plan on my gold holding value within its present magnitude. That is my goal. I am working that plan. If I die before Freegold, I die a happy man, a happy saver working his plan. If Freegold happens within my life then I die an even happier man, penniless after giving a substantial amount of purchasing power to others who can use it as I travel the trail of the hereafter.
I agree that wealth must be held and possessed in order to remove risk. The final ingredient in my mind to remove risk must be the certainty that my wealth will hold its value and not suffer degradation relative to other forms of wealth or other speculative investments. Regardless of the eventual valuation of gold or when it happens, I cannot think of a better form of wealth than physical gold.
Acquire as much physical gold as your understanding allows. Sage advice indeed.
Here's some more advice:
RTFB
Michael H,
Many thanks for that interesting post.
I fully concede that IF there is a coordinated global monetary system with one metal behind it, the first and primary candidate is gold. There is enough data here to prove that a hundred times over.
I would add a further objection that you have not mentioned: the remaining unmined silver is inconveniently concentrated in South and Central America, and monetary silver as you have described it would give disproportionate economic and political power to that currently rather weak region. It is hard to imagine the current powers accepting this.
Nevertheless although some of my future scenarios presuppose attempts at monetary coordination, I generally assume that it will fail and that the future system will be patchy and regional, with extensive capital controls, competing ways of shoring up currencies, at least economic wars, and mercantilism. In that context I can easily see silver being state-controlled and remonetised in a South and/or Central American context, and in time perhaps more widely.
Failing which, the other issues almost done to death already remain in my mind: initial rebalancing among those currently invested in both metals (the Sprotts and Hommels of this world, who represent more wealth than many here care to admit), the rehabilitation of commodities as a wealth preservation class (already begun in China), exhaustion of silver supplies, substitution in the Indian subcontinent, and many more drivers. That is assuming there is no "silver movement" anywhere in the world, despite some of the signs that one is developing. Review the Google statistics for some of the silver blogosphere players. Read a few posts to guess socioeconomic status. Do the maths. Something is happening in the Dutch-speaking world. You cannot have Dinars without Dirhams. etc. etc.
Meanwhile silver has its own suppression and leverage dynamics to be unwound, although the figures for these seem almost impossible to come by.
All the above factors are contested here (of course) but are taken for granted elsewhere; if a million people representing a billion dollars or so hold a view, I don't care whether they went to university or not. I am taking both views seriously.
A paper/physical discontinuity in silver analogous to the one we are all expecting in gold appears to me to be overwhelmingly likely. I will not guess at the timing. I am still trying to assess the resulting dynamics and ratio - indeed that is the whole point of my being here.
Michael H,
Just a sample for you from Alexa. Silverdoctors.com is not highbrow stuff. Nevertheless: in the top thousand in the global jumbo shrimp haven of Singapore.
That's not the top thousand precious metals sites, or investment sites. That is the top thousand websites.
Statistics Summary for silverdoctors.com
Silverdoctors.com is ranked #15,510 in the world according to the three-month Alexa traffic rankings. Relative to the overall population of internet users, the site appeals more to users who are higher-income; its visitors also tend to consist of childless, moderately educated men over the age of 35 who browse from home. Visitors to the site view 2.9 unique pages each day on average. While we estimate that 51% of visitors to Silverdoctors.com come from the US, where it is ranked #5,677, it is also popular in Singapore, where it is ranked #945.
matrixsentry,
Nice post and fantastic perspective on life. We should all be so wise as to set up a win-win situation for ourselves.
Art - the federal reserve prints credit, it's up to others to put a value on that credit. If holders of gold value this credit enough to trade it for Federal reserve credits than so be it. The question is how much physical is in such weak hands as to trade it for credit? As with any line of credit it has its limits. Otherwise I suppose a better move would be to print enough dollars to buy Canada. They have a lot of gold in the ground and besides the fishing is fantastic.
Sam,
There is no such thing as a win-win situation, only the mistaken belief that one can predict the future performance of an asset class.
-athrone
Michael H and others debating silver,
Just out from Reuters
http://www.silverinstitute.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/ChineseSilverMarket2012.pdf
Brief silverbug summary, for those who still enjoy looking at the world through others' eyes:
- After eliminating VAT round-tripping, supply/demand picture is tightening.
- 2 years after the legalisation of bars:
- Bar hoarding doubling annually
- Coin and bar hoarding as a component of total demand increasing rapidly
- VAT on bars now effectively zero (although still officially payable)
- Gold jewellery substitution for silver spreading from countryside to major cities, with improving cultural acceptance
- Rapid increase in silver jewellery demand
- Rapid increase in open interest and volumes on exchanges / investment in "paper silver"
- Continuing strong investment demand
- Continuing overwhelming reliance on imported metal
- Silver mentioned alongside gold as store of value and inflation hedge
- Publisher admits having seriously underestimated investment demand in last year's report
Quote:
"The first full year after liberalization of the investment market, net demand for silver bars and coins more than doubled, totaling 9.8 Moz (305 t), equivalent to almost $200 million. By 2011, these had figures soared to 17.0 Moz (530 t) and some $600 million respectively. To put this into
a wider perspective, Chinese investors last year accounted for 8% of global net purchases of silver bars and coins. Moreover, expectations are that further growth is in the pipeline for the years to come as local savers put their trust
in precious metals as a store of value and inflation hedge.
Silverbug fantasy or serious industrial assessment? You decide.
Art- you figured it all out. Seems there is no way out of the $IMFS trap. If only there were only some in positions of power with your intelligence, understanding, and insider knowledge that would benefit from the end of the manipulation of gold's value. Alas!..there is not. I suppose this charade will go on forever
@tyranny
Nevertheless although some of my future scenarios presuppose attempts at monetary coordination, I generally assume that it will fail and that the future system will be patchy and regional, with extensive capital controls, competing ways of shoring up currencies, at least economic wars, and mercantilism.
OMG that's like... amazing! Do you have a newsletter, or a book? You should try the choose your own adventure format!
I am still trying to assess the resulting dynamics and ratio - indeed that is the whole point of my being here.
OMG please notify us of the results of your assessment with the greatest haste sir! I await the disbursement of your infinite wisdom with bated breath!
...for those who still enjoy looking at the world through others' eyes
LOL obviously that does not include these cultist freegolders! PWNED.
Greetz,
HMS
Art,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_J2JNdC9Vg
Art: -
May you enjoy a long and pleasure-filled life. ...as I intend to do - Freegold or not.
HMS,
Sorry, no further than OMG. Is that an abbreviation? I got the last letter, which is clearly gold. Other than that, you've got me. Good luck with whatever it is you are thinking about.
May we all be at Peace.
"And thank you Lord, for filling my heart with love instead of hate. (I almost never use bad words in real life. I feel ridiculous when doing so :o)"
Amen. I hope you journey well.
Hello Woland – it’s the week-end and I’m now on holidays, so time to lighten up a bit.
My sources tell me that you are a "rigger" of sorts. One of my favorite collections of stories is about one such as you, by a wonderful author, now dead, by the name of Primo Levi. You will receive that book in LV.
I was concerned your collection might turn out to be “Don’t tell Mom I Work on a Rig: She thinks I’m a Piano Player in a Whorehouse” (available on Amazon) – a collection of absolutely hilarious stories about life on the rigs, which of course I have read.
I googled Primo Levi – and cannot wait to receive my prize. You always come up with the most amazing gems. Thank you in advance. You are also amazingly perceptive; yes – I have seen this puzzle before, in my college days. And now I have to be scrupulously honest and admit that I only solved half of it back then (the easy half).
But, first, you will need to complete the logic of step 3, if only for the benefit of the amazed multitude.
I will complete the proof of course – if only to receive the Primo prize. (Apologies if no-one else is interested).
_____
Weigh L L L H against N N N L with N H H H on the side.
If balance, then you have 3 known Heavies on the side. Weigh any two of these against each other to determine the odd-ball.
If left side goes down, you have one potential H (on left) or one potential L on right. Weigh potential H against an N to determine odd-ball.
If left side goes up, you have 3 known Lights on left, so repeat as for 3 Heavies above.
_____
One last thing. “Riggers” are always hired for their muscles . . . whereas the “Engineering Consultants” are usually hired for their . . . good looks.
Cheers - FoNoah
"What is Gold?"
you are asking my friend?
The answer is quite simple: It is what it is.
It is what ever people want to see in it, since it has no use, that's its utility in itself ;) (->therefore my personal poll vote was currency)
Some people even see in it the knight on a white horse when Rome is burning, sure, but that doesnt hold Rome from burning, much too late my friend.
Some years ago, when I started to ask myself, what is money, I read a quite trivial answer, so trivial, that it didnt make sense to me, but is becoming more and more obvious, I dont remember the exact words and how to translate those, but it was something like this:
"The monetary system is just a reflection of society."
So shall it be....so good luck for all of us, regardless of giants (LOL!!!111) or not.
Greets, AD
@ poopyjim,
I really love your posts and feel like I benefit from reading your insights, not to mention I enjoyed your FOFOA interview. As politely as I can say this, the novelty of your alter-ego has gone the way of the dodo bird. Be your real self and spare us the clutter of your HMS posts. We have enough Arts around, so can we forego perpetuating more idiocy ourselves?
Another issue to consider in attempting to discern attitudes to the safe haven potential of physical gold. To move into gold in size you need to have a safe place to store it.
Investors in Asia are increasingly dealing with a seemingly anachronistic problem: finding a place to stash their bars of gold.
This article reports that high-security vault space is being expanded:
http://www.gata.org/node/12057
h/t Ed Steer
In regards to when to exchange out of gold and other assets, I have come to the following understanding for me. It is not determined by any ratios or rebalancing considerations. It is determined by the stage we are at in an inevitable hyperinflation in dollars.
In stage one, we would have perhaps some kind of financial emergency. Banks might close, ATMs and credit cards might not work, etc. One blogger said that for 2 weeks in parts of New York after hurricane Sandy, the only way you could buy food or gasoline was with cash currency. Therefore I would hoard some cash currency for this eventuality and use it up first.
In stage 2 would be the initial stages of hyperinflation. In most charts I have seen, the initial stages start of rather slowly and work up, with inflation rates of 10-50 % per month. This is the stage where some silver might be useful. Prior to the blowoff and revaluation, silver and other real things might well track moderate inflation.
In stage 3, we would have the insane rates of inflation amounting to hundreds per day. This is the time I would lay low and live off my stored food. I would stay off the streets and out of grocery stores and coin shops.
In stage 4 we would have the reorganization and the issuance of a new dollar with many zeros lopped off the old dollar. It is only after the issuance of the new currency and enough time to ensure that this new dollar will be stable that I would consider selling any of my gold, transferring it into the new currency on the way to investing in the best of the surviving dividend-paying corporations and perhaps some farmland.
Stewart Thomson discussing the potential for Japan to engineer the global reflation that has, thus far, eluded the Fed:
http://www.safehaven.com/article/28109/gold-and-japanese-reflation
Japan is the world's largest creditor nation, and the 3rd largest economy. If Abe is successful in forcing the Bank of Japan to embrace much more aggressive QE, it could spark what some major bank economists are already calling, "The Great Reflation".
I'm coming across similar thinking elsewhere. The long term deflationary trend in the Yen may have stored up a considerable amount of inflationary firepower in this currency.
If anyone bumps into Bron around the blogosphere it would be interesting to know if they sell much product into Japan and, if so, whether there has been a reaction to Shinzo Abe's election win.
I am kind of skeptical of all the talk of a massive revaluation of gold. I simply don't see it happening. Whatever forces might cause such an event are more likely, I think, to trigger urgent meetings of the world's monetary authorities and some "solution" that doesn't result in gold at, say, $50,000 an ounce (or whatever).
In fact, I have no desire to see such a sequence of events. I have even resigned myself to the possibility that I may have gotten all I am going to get out of the gold market. Gold is beautiful and rare and has an amazing history, but it is not magical. A continuation of the escalator ride it has been on for the last ten years or so would suit me just fine.
Hello Costata:
I have now listened to 3 different sources, all of whom I hold in
high regard,who say Japan will be the first of the "major currency"
economies to hyper-inflate. First, Frank Veneroso, then Jeff
Gundlach, and now, (via Jesse's Cafe link) Kyle Bass. All say
that the politics are now in place, regarding the incoming new
BOJ members, and that we should see the beginnings of the
policy in the first quarter 0f 2013. Somewhere in the last thread
I provided a link to the Veneroso piece (which spent an undue
amt. of time on EU target 2 balances and the internal bank run).
Gundlach link was via the "generally horrible" Clusterstock.
Don't know if you will find any of this useful. FWIW
Hi FoNoah;
I'm looking forward to LV even more now, and hope to hear
some great stories. It appears we may share a few "wave
lengths", despite your career having been a far more
interesting one than mine.
You might enjoy the story of how I came to that puzzle. It
appeared as a small element in a series 30 years ago in the
New Yorker magazine, at a time when I actually still liked it.
Jeremy Bernstein, a particle physicist, had written a book
about his life in Physics, and his first year at Harvard in the
Graduate program. His section was given the 12 ball problem
to be solved by the next class. He spent much of the night
on it, and solved it. Later the next day, he met another
fellow in the program, and asked him if he could solve it.
That was Murray Gell Mann, the 1969 Nobel Prize winner.
Gell Mann say, oh yes, this is how it goes, and here's the
formula for how many weighings are required to solve it
for any N number of balls. So, as we know anyway, there's
smart, and then there's people like Gell Mann, or Feynman.
That's MY little story. Apologies to the blog for OT.
Good story Woland. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that our very own FOFOA belongs in that exalted company too. Would you (or anyone else) agree?
I must remember to tell you my favourite Feynmann story in LV too . . .
FOFOA,
do you think many people in the civilized west REMEMBER what WEALTH is ? Do they still remeber their forefathers that hoarded things for their OFFSPRINGS and not for THEMSELVES ? And do you believe in the superhedged and cross guaranteed financial market people get the risk they are undertaking for even small things such as bank deposit ?
Good one about Stradivarius. How many music lovers are grim because a Stradivarius lies in a vault ? And ultimately, concealing a work of art isn't a sin ?
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