Tuesday, July 23, 2013

The Funeral



Over the weekend I attended a gathering of my whole extended family. It was a funeral. At dinner after the funeral, one relative whom I had gotten heavily into gold back in the $7 & $800s of late 2008/early 2009 cornered me and asked me what I thought of the recent gold price decline. He doesn't know that I have a blog. Actually, no one in my extended family does.

I assured him that I am not concerned about the price action as evidenced by a recent gold purchase and no sales of any of my gold. He told me that he hasn't sold any either and he's not that worried because it's still much higher than when he purchased it. I told him that I had a theory about the decline and he asked what it was. I told him it was a little too complicated to explain while whispering at the corner of a crowded dinner table. Then he explained to me that he thinks someone is manipulating the price.

He relayed a story that he has already told me a couple other times about how he used to invest in or trade commodity contracts back in the 70s or 80s (I'm not sure exactly when it was). In particular, he liked to play in sugar back then. He explained how he would buy "sugar contracts" and how the big players had many ways to manipulate the crops, the reporting of the crops, the supply lines etc… (reminded me of Trading Places). He had actually been quite lucky in sugar as it went his way and he made a big profit, but since then he has decided that he was just lucky for being on the right side of a manipulation meant to screw someone much bigger than him on the other side.

Then he asked me about my theory again. I don't have many opportunities to practice a simple, short explanation, so I took the bait the second time using his story as a launchpad. Here's what I told him.

I explained that the fundamental purpose of what he was doing back when he was buying sugar contracts, whether he understood it or not, was to be kind of a "shock absorber" between the producers and the users of the actual physical commodity. Anyone who invests in, trades or speculates in the paper proxies for these commodities, contracts in particular, is ensuring relative price and supply stability for those who deal in the real item, both the hard working producers and the hungry consumers.

This can be a little confusing because he probably thought that, by buying sugar contracts for profit, he was actually competing against the users of sugar and putting additional pressure on the producers. He probably imagined himself as a player in amongst those who create and use the real physical item. But what he was actually doing was joining a pool of traders and speculators who will take upon themselves any price shocks that occur, leaving the real users to their mostly-pleasant existence. Among that pool of speculators there will of course be winners and losers. Meanwhile, the real users are all winners in that they weren't interested in sugar for its profit potential from price and supply volatility, but for its usefulness as a food product.

Using my hands I showed him how we have the sugar growers and producers on one side, and we have the sugar consumers on the other side. And then in the middle we have the traders and speculators like he was doing who absorb any shocks in the supply line by claiming the profits and losses from volatility for themselves. These speculators deliver price stability to the producers on one side (by giving them a financial market in which to hedge their production income) and supply stability to the consumers on the other side (by keeping the price to the end user commensurate with the current supply flow).

There is also the warehouseman who adjusts which commodity and how much of the real, physical commodity he stores in his warehouse according to the basis—the changing level of the contango (and occasional backwardation) created by the speculators. The warehouseman is on the same side as the producers supplying the market rather than being in the middle with the traders and speculators because, like the producers, he avoids the price volatility by simply acting upon the immediate income guaranteed by the difference between present and future prices offered by the speculators. Whenever there is slack in the supply line, he takes up that slack by expanding the inventory in his warehouse while earning an income from the speculators that resembles a fee for storing the product for a period of time.

Likewise, when there is no slack in the supply line signaling demand that is greater than new production and which is reflected by a low or nonexistent contango (fee for storing the product paid by the speculators), the warehouseman drains his inventory by selling into the tight flow and relatively high demand. I say relatively high demand because, in the case of commodities like sugar, rather than being a sudden spike in demand, it is actually a drop in new supply often caused by normal seasonal changes, but sometimes caused by unexpected things like bad weather which can destroy a whole season's crop. But to the consumer, the shock of a sudden reduction in supply is absorbed by the warehouseman who is able to provide this service because of the financial basis provided by the traders and speculators in the contract market.

Once my relative had this picture in his mind and understood where he fit into the picture back when he was "trading sugar contracts," I switched to gold. I explained that gold doesn't need this pool of traders and speculators acting as a shock absorber in between those who deal in the real metal for its primary useful purpose. Because gold isn't consumed like other commodities, there is always plenty of supply at the right price and therefore no essential need for either producers of new gold or warehousemen reacting to a basis derived from paper proxy trading.

But even though gold is different from all of the other commodities, I explained, we still have this same basic structure today (using my hands again) with the producers and warehousemen (the bullion banks) on one side, the end users of the real metal on the other side, and the traders and speculators in the middle. Then I explained to him that "my theory" was that the recent price decline was actually just the death throes of this basic structure. Because this structure is not necessary for gold, and because it still exists today, what we are seeing in the price decline is this whole middle area (using my hands again) of paper proxy trading going down. But this, I explained, has little to do with the real item on either side, which I told him is why he bought physical gold coins instead of any kind of paper gold substitutes back in 2008.

There are something like 5 ½ billion ounces of already-mined gold in the world, so after this basic commodity structure disappears in the case of gold, the owners of that tremendous and overwhelming stock of gold will become the suppliers replacing what is more of a one-way commodity-like supply flow today. So, unlike with sugar where you need a constant new supply on one side because the real product is consumed on the other side, with gold this one-way flow is unnecessary since the real "end-use" of gold is to hold it and then, at some point later, to sell it to someone else.

So the "end users" of gold actually appreciate the relative tightness in new supply that tends to increase the price over time and ultimately turns them into suppliers sometime later. It is a virtuous loop that is not in need of a shock-absorbing pool of traders and speculators like the one-way flow of commodities that get consumed either by industry or consumers. And that, I explained, is my explanation for the declining price of these tradable paper proxies. This basic commodity market structure is not needed for gold and I interpret the recent dramatic price decline as a sign that the "market-organism" is in the process of phasing it out.

I explained that the dramatic price drop was kind of like "bad weather" to the gold mining companies and that, as you'd expect in this commodity-style market structure, there are indications that the warehousemen are now draining their inventories so that we, the end-users, don't feel the tightness in the supply flow. But far from this plunge in the price indicating the funeral for gold-the-metal, the evidence says that it's merely the funeral for the commodity-like structure of the outdated gold market.

Whoever is sitting on those 5 ½ billion ounces of already-mined gold, including the central banks, is apparently not casting it into the streets in disgust. It's apparently mainly the holders of paper gold promises doing the casting, and that's why the price crashed. So what we appear to be watching is the failure of a general market structure that was misprescribed in the first place.

I explained that my view of this is not based solely on gold theory and a narrow view on only the gold market, but instead it comes from a comprehensive thesis that also reveals many other "stress fractures" appearing right now that support the idea that a major change is unfolding. And that, I told him, is why I'm still buying physical gold even as others are selling their paper gold and mining shares in disgust.

I told him that what I expect is an almost-overnight revaluation in physical gold. He asked how high I thought it could go. I said that he would laugh if I told him, but that it was quite high. Then he brought up $10 per gallon gasoline. So I had to explain that I wasn't talking about $5,000 gold with $10 per gallon gas. I said that right now an ounce of gold could buy 12 or 13 barrels of oil but that I expect it to buy MUCH more after the revaluation.

So, in conclusion, I told him that the counterintuitive conclusion that kept me buying physical gold even as the price declined dramatically was that the price action reveals the rejection or phasing out of the current commodity market structure of the gold market which, in my view, will lead to this revaluation in the actual physical item which will reform the physical gold supply line from a one-way flow into a virtuous circular loop where the "end users" are also the majority suppliers, but at a much higher value relative to everything else. I can't say that his head exploded all over the dinner table, because it didn't, but he did change the subject at that point. ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA

PS. It is tempting to think about the various indicators that we observe as the cause of what we expect to happen, but I don't think about them in that way. Instead, I think about them as being similar to the gravitational effects we can see that let us know that a black hole exists even though we can never see or fully understand the black hole itself. These things we watch are simply a few of the visible symptoms of a vastly more complex yet invisible black hole.

I came across a couple of paragraphs in a book last night that, to me, resonated with my view of the unknowable complexity that must underlie what we see happening today, and I wanted to share them with you:

"Not everything that happens during the day is an omen portending a good or evil development in the future, but everything has meaning to one degree or another, for the world is an ever-weaving tapestry from which no thread can be pulled without destroying the integrity of the cloth. The breadth of Creation makes it impossible for us to step back far enough to see the story that the tapestry tells; the intricacy of it, from the macro to the micro to the subatomic, makes it impossible for us to comprehend the megatrillions of connections between the threads in just one small fragment of the whole.

Yet there are uncanny moments when each of us recognizes that the surface of events is just what the word denotes, a
surface under which lie layers beyond counting, that what's really happening is always more than what appears to be happening, that the apparent meaning of an event is only the smallest part of its fullest meaning. In such moments, most people—wise or foolish, simple or smart—truly feel the wonder of the world and perceive poignantly but briefly that at the heart of our existence lie mysteries so supremely grand in character that we cannot comprehend them in this life. The tendency then is to treat this revelation as an aberration, to react with fear or pride, or both, and to attribute the experience to mere confusion, stress, one glass of wine too many, one glass of wine too few, or any of the innumerable unlikely causes."
–Dean Koontz

PPS. If the current commodity-like gold market structure is being "put down" by the market-organism as I think it is, would you view that as a natural death or as more of an execution?


657 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 657   Newer›   Newest»
Sam said...

I buy _______ when they hits rock bottom and then I sell _______ right when it peaks at the top price. Quite simply really. With this strategy I have ______x more gold than anyone else who just buys gold directly. I'm not executing or condoning these exact strategies right now though. I’m only a brilliant trader in the past. As far as the future goes anything can happen….

Herb said...

A small semantic comment that certainly is not an original thought. When posters speak in terms of gold rising to 55,000 dollars per ounce what they really are referring to is the dollar falling to 55,000 dollars per ounce. To put it another way, if you have a 100 trillion dollar Zimbabwe dollar bill you wouldn't say the the Zimbabwe dollar "rose" to 100 trillion dollars.

The impediment to clear thinking is the normal human tendency to see the future as a projection of the present. If it takes 55,000 dollars to buy an ounce of gold you can rest assured that the 55,000 dollars of the future will not buy what 55,000 dollars of the present will buy. The value of gold is not the variable in the equation; it is the value of the dollar. And by "value" I mean what it can be exchanged for in the real world.

Woland said...

Milamber; an exceptional life, duly noted. Who knows what friendships
were formed at Texas A & M around 1940, or perhaps before, on the
streets of Galveston. We will never know. I was never fond of Texans,
but I've done a little "growing up" the past few years. ( hey, it's never
too late.)

{:<)>

said...

Herb, if you are trying to point to FOFOA's position, you are incorrect. He expects somewhere around $55k in 2009 dollars. AKA he expects the purchasing power of gold to go much much higher relatively as well as nominally.

Indenture said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
M said...

@ Wil
Late reply but yeah. Fractional reserve accounting is a good way of wording it. Double entry accounting was discussed a bit before you got here. Basically the response was that it was like any other regular double entry accounting system that business uses. But I don't agree. Businesses clear the books every month. The US never clears its books so its a sham. That is why I think ideally the world would be the best off with one transactional currency.

For every Chinese net export, there is 2 representations of the purchasing power out there. First the one the Chinese exporter gets from the Chinese CB and then the one that the US spends that it got from the Chinese CB who lent it to them.

M said...

@ Herb

Read some of the material on here. If you did, you would realize that this is not your typical inflationist BS about how static the price of gold in US dollars is.

Basically you are saying that the price of gold will not rise at all but the USD will lose hella value.

Unknown said...

GO FREESILVER !!

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz .....

Bright aurum said...

@Woland
..'' Who knows what friendships
were formed at Texas A & M around 1940''..
Do you think Another/FOA were involved (are descendants of the people) or connected to the ones in the know?
Cheers

sean said...

Herb, it may sound incredible but that's the predicted price without accounting for hi. For explanation try http://fofoa.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/how-can-we-possibly-calculate-future.html

ein anderer said...

Herb,
the thesis is »Gold is rising against ALL other assets and commodities".
A dollar Hyper Inflation is something else and could occur very well after Freegold. In this case the the Dollar price of EVERYTHING (inclusive gold) would rise. This would mean for the free gold after transition: 55k US-$ (spending power 2009) PLUS HI effect.

Anonymous said...

Spaul

Don't bother. Some people here believe they can predict the future. After some comments regarding silver, I just keep my thoughts to myself. I do have much more gold than silver. There are great arguments in favor of gold, but I don't think having some silver will hurt during the transition.

FOA and Another posted some great thoughts more than 10 years ago. The game kept going until now. Who would have guessed back then? If one was 60 years old back then, did the person make the right choice? Sure was a great investment, but wasn't better just live life and forget that the financial world was collapsing?

Anything can happen. There are endless possibilities.

Anonymous said...


Just a quick thought on paper gold support by European CBs.

How about the following motivation. In 1999, the European CBs had much more gold on lease than they eventually sold under the WAG between 1999 and 2009. Between 1999 and the end of 2012, a number of lease agreements must have matured (we have confirmation in the case of Germany; Belgium - Fiore emailed me; Austria), and so these CBs received that gold back.

Isn't it possible that the paper gold price was 'supported' between 2002 and 2012 in order to make sure the market remained stable until the Europeans had closed their remaining gold lease agreements?

Victor

Sam said...

@James

I would say the answer to your question would be "NO!" I wish I bought gold at $350 an ounce because I read Another and FOA years ago. As for timing who cares. All evidence anyone can dig up continues to show these guys were credible in what they said happened in the past and what will happen in the future. Guessing at the timing was a mistake as no one knows the day and hour. The delay however is a good thing as "they bought (and continue to buy) us time." If you were 60 when you read their thoughts you shouldn't have been "investing" in gold for a big giant payoff. You should have been saving in gold and otherwise living a good happy life. That's what I'm doing. I'll be happy when the revaluation hits but I'm also happy now to be saving outside the system and to not be at risk of a socialized response to a financial collapse.

Anonymous said...


For the record, many salespeople of the gold industry, for example, this one here

Alasdair Macleod with Max Keiser

but also the godfather of the gold basis, Antal Fekete, here

Gold Basis Screwed

claim that negative GOFO implies a "shortage of physical gold for cash delivery". This is not correct.

If the basis (i.e. future price minus spot price) turns negative in the futures market for copper or iron ore, this would be true. In these markets, you either buy/sell physical metal for immediate (=cash) payment, or you buy/sell futures contracts on margin (=only small collateral paid down, full sum only due in the future when you receive the metal).

In the London gold market, however, most gold that is traded is unallocated rather than allocated, i.e. GOFO measures the "gold basis" as the difference between the forward price and the spot price (loco London), but this spot is "spot unallocated" gold, i.e. you pay with cash dollars for gold credit, i.e. a gold account whose balance is in ounces. GOFO therefore measures the interest you receive on a swap if you lend dollars and borrow unallocated gold (aka "paper gold").

It should be immediately obvious that negative GOFO is quite different from a negative basis in iron ore or copper futures.

For this reason, negative GOFO does not indicate a shortage of physical gold for immediate delivery. It may, however, indicate the unwillingness of the London banks to write more gold credit (paper gold). As I explained in this comment, I don't believe this is presently the case though.

By the way, there cannot be a "shortage" of physical gold for cash delivery in the same way as there are occasionally shortages of various commodities, simply because gold is not consumed and the above ground stock is in excess of 150000 tonnes. The availability of gold for sale can never be subject to a shortage of metal - of course, you'd expect price to matter and probably one day the currency that's offered.

For completeness, the gold basis (COMEX) or GOFO (LBMA) is equal, by the no arbitrage condition, to the "interest rate on the dollar loan plus risk premium on the dollar loan plus storage expenses for the gold minus risk premium on the gold loan".

Victor

Anonymous said...

By the way, this is how the gold or oil story saw the light of the day:

THE GRAND LBMA EXPOSÉ: A Collective-Mind Analysis
Part - 1

by THE RED BARON (September 8, 1997)
[VtC: original link has now disappeared]

The London Bullion Marketing Association (LBMA) can only be adequately described as "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

It shyly emerged upon the news airwaves on January 30, 1997. Its appearance was almost as an after-thought, deceptively innocuous with few superlatives to distinguish it from the daily diarrhea of financial news spewing forth from the bowels of the world's money centers. Few readers took note of it... most gave it little import. To my knowledge it was an esoteric select few at the Kitco Gold Chat group, who really zeroed in on the draconian significance of the news.

Was the news a bureaucratic slip of utmost discreet information - indeed top secret data - or was it a well-timed and methodically planned leak to the press. Or perhaps it was the "whistle-blowing" of an irate employee, who was passed over for promotion? Who really knows? In any case we will provide all the details surrounding this monumental announcement... and allow the reader to draw his own conclusions.

This writer will present the entire situation via a chronicle of all the news publications about the subject, providing dates sources and authors - where possible. Nearly all available information was researched from Internet sources. Most comments are verbatim from respective authors. Occasionally, this writer added comments of clarification and/or conclusions where the research leaves off.

The LBMA Announcement -

Literally at the crack of London dawn on January 30, 1997, the London Financial Times printed the following:

The London Financial Times
http://www.ft.com

Gold global market revealed
THURSDAY JANUARY 30 1997

By Kenneth Gooding, Mining Correspondent

Deals involving about 30 million troy ounces, or 930 tonnes, of gold valued at more than $10 billion are cleared every working day in London, the international settlement centre for gold bullion.

This is the first authoritative indication of the size of the global gold market, and was revealed yesterday by the London Bullion Market Association.

With the blessing of the Bank of England, the association overturned years of tradition and secrecy to provide statistics illustrating the size and depth of the London market.

The volume of gold cleared every day in London represented nearly twice the production from South African mines in a year, Mr. Alan Baker, chairman of the association, pointed out.

It was also equivalent to the amount of gold held in the reserves of European Union central banks.

The size of the gold market will surprise many observers, but traders insisted the association's statistics were only part of the picture because matched orders are cleared without appearing in the statistics. Mr. Jeffrey Rhodes, of Standard Bank, London, said the 30m ounces should be "multiplied by three, and possibly five, to give the full scope of the global market".


...

Anonymous said...

...

Mr. Baker said the association would produce average daily clearance figures every month. "They will provide a useful benchmark for comparison and analysis of trends in the volume of the global bullion business," he predicted.

He denied suggestions that the move might drive business away from London by upsetting clients who preferred secrecy. "These figures do not in any way affect the confidentiality of the market. While discretion and integrity will always be bywords in the London bullion market, the LBMA is nevertheless conscious of the general call for greater transparency in markets.

"The statistics demonstrate the prominence of London in the world of bullion, something we have long been aware of but which until now has been difficult to demonstrate with statistics."

LBMA members were divided over the move. One said he was puzzled. "What will people make of it?" Another said the exercise was "futile" because it did not give a complete picture of bullion market activity.

But Standard Bank's Mr. Rhodes suggested the statistics would "become the key indicator in the world of gold, providing the numbers by which the market can be monitored".

Mr. Martin Stokes, vice-chairman of the association, said: "This shows we have a serious market with a lot of depth and deserving of more attention." The statistics showed, for example, that the 300 tonnes of gold sold recently by the Dutch central bank - a disposal that badly affected bullion market sentiment - was not a large amount by the market's standards. The association was "making a bid to attract investors' interest".

The association also gave details yesterday about the silver market. Roughly 250 million ounces of silver valued at more than $1 billion are cleared daily in London.

It also published the results of a Bank of England survey of turnover that the 14 market-making members of the LBMA in the London bullion market conducted in May last year. This showed about 7 million ounces of gold, worth nearly $3 billion, was traded daily by these market-makers."

Writer's comment: In light of these startling revelations, various observations may be gleaned from this publication by the London Financial Times.

The view of the humongous daily trading volume of gold by the LBMA, annual supply/demand dynamics may have little to NO INFLUENCE on the long-term price of the noble metal - albeit can cause short-term ripples one way or the other.

The formidable volume of daily trading strongly resembles that of currency trading -- indeed many world experts staunchly proclaim gold to be the universal currency... and history undeniably supports this assertion.

Fear of Central Bank sales of gold may be totally exaggerated - and may really have only a minuscule and temporary impact on gold prices.

The LBMA is a highly liquid gold environment, conducive for speculative trading - ESPECIALLY NOW THAT THE 'CAT IS OUT OF THE BAG.' Could this be the ulterior motive for breaking the secrecy code of ALMOST TWO CENTURIES?????????????

At the current daily trading rate, more than 100 TIMES THE ANNUAL WORLD'S GOLD PRODUCTION RATE IS TRADED ANNUALLY in the LBMA!!! Other than currencies, can anyone mention any commodity experiencing yearly trading volume of 100 times its annual production?! ANYONE?! Does this not pique your curiosity and question the reason or purpose of all this gold trading?!


...

Anonymous said...

...

This announcement was followed by a lively discussion first on the Kitco board and later at USA Gold during which Big Trader, Another and FOA appeared.

With this announcement it was clear that what was being traded was not primarily physical gold, but rather a currency, i.e.credit money denominated in ounces of gold, not necessarily allocated.

What was revealed at that time was "clearing volume" which is even less than "trading volume" as the Loco London Liquidity Survey revealed in spring 2011.

Victor

Sam said...

@ Victor

"Isn't it possible that the paper gold price was 'supported' between 2002 and 2012 in order to make sure the market remained stable until the Europeans had closed their remaining gold lease agreements?"

This would make sense to me. As it is with any paper promise there are those that must get what is promised to them (like Saudi's getting their gold so the oil keeps flowing) and then those that can be left to scramble for the remaining scraps as their getting paid in full or defaulted on is not systemically vital (like the foretold 1000 lions fighting over a scrap of food)

Bright aurum said...

@ Victor
Thank you Victor.
This scenario of yours is very much plausible.
But then, where is the shrimp-size physical POG derived from?
At what % level of dissonance will the divergence between physical and paper price spell out the death of the COMEX and LBMA lending facilities as the 'gold market'.

Bright aurum said...

It was interesting to observe the trading action on Friday where the POG in EUR couldn`t be lifted in the trading hours of the European markets. Any attempt in doing so was met by the deterioration of the USD<EUR exchange rate.

Unknown said...

My musing these days are about the psychological aspects of the transition to FG. I have been trying to understand with greater depth the perspective that physical gold is a store of wealth. Seems so simple on the surface. Even the dragon in The Hobbit understands it. And, yet...

I say thanks to everyone that replied to my comment about this from a few weeks ago because it got me re-reading FOFOA's posts Think like a Giant and Think like a Giant 2. Now more than ever, I want to discard my preconceived assumptions about Giants and lace up the "boogie shoes" of a Giant and dance the dance.

I checked out a library book about a (the) family of Giants and it was a fascinating read. My main take-away from this little history lesson was that Giants appear to very strategic and one step ahead of their opponents.

Herb said...

I am very sorry I used the $55,000 figure in my post because it obscured my point. $55,000 is just a number that gets thrown around a lot. I have no idea what the future will bring.

Sam said...

@Blair

Those are two of my favorite posts. The concepts are easier to understand as you learn how to think like the super producers of this world.

jeb said...

Is it correct or incorrect if i say that ; GOFO is a mechanism used by central banks to promote $ liquidity? That's how I understand it..

Knotty Pine said...

Here is the first segment of an interesting program about Detroit, Michigan USA 2013. While musing about all the problems facing the motor city the first guest asks, "who knows what money's worth, what's a promise worth, what's a contract worth anymore? Welcome to the jungle.

dragonfly said...

@Woland - sense of humor here indeed. Have you seen how the governor carries on with Ted Nugent?!?!

On the "barefoot boys" thing, who knows. Christie Mitchell used to get a laugh when he'd tell how he said - "George, any idiot can make a million dollars in Houston, it takes a genius to make a livin' in Galveston."

George's foundation is mentioned in the bio for K. Lorenz

http://familyofficeassociation.com/dwnld/Spring_Summit_Speakers.pdf

Philanthropy, the last refuge of ... (giants?)

gotta love that FOA Spring Global Summit thing

for more information on FOA, go to page 27 ;-)

LZ said...

Sometimes I think about buying some silver, and then I buy platinum.

Biju said...

Off topic comment : i recently toured switzerland and rome. Rome is an exceptionally great place. If anyone get a chance, you should spend a week there.

The USD may be toast but i will say one thing - Americans are the most frendliest on the earth. USA may not have history , but in my opinion is the greatest place on Earth.

michael3c2000 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
One Bad Adder said...

Biju: - Americans "on-the-ground" in continental USA are fantastic and have been for yonks ...OTOH when OS (even when in Canada ;-)they tend to be "different".
Since 911 however (in my humble experience) US citizens abroard have changed markedly ...for the better.

VtC:- getting hot - GOFO reflects the REAL (negative) IR at the short end of the curve ...and little else IMHO.

One Bad Adder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
michael3c2000 said...

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1375056000.php
By Jim Willie /// I have a hard time understanding him here; his predictions contradict themselves and there's little new material from my end of things. I admire his gumption and great efforts put forward for years, but this free essay is too wordy and speculative. That said, you may love it, skim it or ignore it. Thank you and you may prefer instead his very short "Alert" at Steve Quayles site, from July 28, 2013-
just a couple minutes of reading (but had me rereading it, scratching my head, shaking my head and almost banging my head like I did when I watched FOFOA's Iron Maiden.

http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=33&d=493
JIM WILLIE: MAJOR EXPOSE : THE USGOVT LEADERS AND BANK LEADERS ARE SUDDENLY AT GREAT RISK, DUE TO HACKED SECURITY AGENCY DATA BASES
P.S. Sorry for the lack of material, my computer has been repaired and reformatted while I've been able to view all your many comments from a tablet- keep them coming!!

Unknown said...

Mc32000,
I think everything Jim Willie writes makes sense, though rather colorful, there's no misunderstanding "how he really feels".

He is, upon close inspection, remarkably close to an accurate assessment of freegold, except that:

1) He, like many others, feels that Fort Knox is hollowed out and empty.

2) He does not see the Euro as the new dollar replacement, that is, a global wealth reserve currency. Not that Freegold esposes exactly that, but there are differences ...

And those are 2 key questions for all of us, which have been answered many times, yet time does both prove, and change, all.

He is right to say that these Eastern trade blocs and settlement venues get ZERO mention from the Western propoganda pulpit, and I do not know who Pepe Escobar is, but I will seek him out further.

I did post a link to a Heritage Foundation article which corroborates some of his knowledge of Russia (albeit with a decidedly different spin) as well as his earlier goldseek article which was a bullet point foundation of a completely new Easter Bloc gold trade note, gold central bank, gold settlement paradigm.

I especially like how Putin is shoving the UST back down the throats of the UK to buy back BP's stake out of Gazprom, but I don't know the basis or facility for such transactions, I can only surmise that there are many creative ways to dump Western debt, some might be surprising ...

Beer Holiday said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beer Holiday said...

Edit" deleted my comment response to OBA deleted comment

michael3c2000 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
michael3c2000 said...

@WM
I agree JW makes his points with elegance and a certain degree of accuracy. And you have identified some of them well.
But again, there are issues with his PREDICTIONS. This is not uncommon. I've been there, done that. But note also where he directly contradicts himself by giving two opposing gold price forecasts. Even the elaboration doesn't clear things up, just teases or strays off topic(whichever) and then provides no substantiation for the two stage silver rocket he envisages in the same paragraph. It's a contrarian indicator to me, like many uninformed, silver bible thumpers do.
But I'll consider: A) he's saving the best for subscribers B) he's really not a freegold fan AT ALL(he wrote me this year saying just that in so many words and then some) C) Has really high level contacts and rarely goes into specifics for his own safety or their's, and just to friends, subscribers D) there is a coalition forming or formed, of which he and we are only partially aware and can only describe a trunk, a floppy ear etc. and "know" more from our "sources"
E) the elephant in the room is a Giant
F) the future is a process, but without definition, shape or form(i.e. prepare for the worst, hope for the best :))

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Others/Escobar.html
FWIW
Heritage Foundation you say? Nice find.
Fort knockers- vault holding the redacted records of government expenditures, formerly a pseudo-official structure posturing as a public wealth repository, depository and weapons depot

Beer Holiday said...

Hi Biju

The USD may be toast but i will say one thing - Americans are the most frendliest on the earth. USA may not have history , but in my opinion is the greatest place on Earth

Where I'm from anything over 100 years is really old :)

A trick question for the Woland and friends: what is the oldest building in Australia?

Unknown said...

M3C2,
Yes, I agree, JW does seem to veer off the trail wildly, with some savory and darkly humorous hairpin remarks.

But this is why I always say, "choose the puzzle pieces that fit, discarding those which don't." (which I consider more logical than discrediting the messenger completely because one puzzle piece does not fit).

It is hard enough to decipher which pieces represent the TRUTH or REALITY of the PRESENT.

To assemble that complete puzzle of the FUTURE??

FOGETABOUTIT !

Ken_C said...


"Beer Holiday said...

A trick question for the Woland and friends: what is the oldest building in Australia?"


I am not Woland but I will guess that it must be a prison.

Bright aurum said...

@Phil_O_Dendron
Ha ha,
I guess the trendiest public facilities in the US are also of that kind.

One Bad Adder said...

BH: - can't remember what I deleted - having a Sav-blanc moment ;-)
Oldest building in Oz? out-the-back Dunny.

THIS is todays 3 mo Auction. Still strong despite the (anticipated) DX takedown.
Downside this go-round? ...79.5 ish methinks.

burningfiat said...

BH,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibbe_Hayes_Stone_Fort

yes?

A young nation indeed!

/BF

Woland said...

I don't see the word "European" anywhere in BH's puzzle. Perhaps it is
implicit, perhaps not. If not, presumably the volcanic stone huts of the
indigenous occupants, which existed more than 1000 years before the Batavian shipwreck, would qualify as "buildings"?

Woland said...

And, if you like your architecture 'REALLY OLD" , there's always
Gobeleke Tepe in neolithic Anatolia.

Unknown said...

One last thing about the Jackass (before I'm banned for even mentioning his name again) is that he also thinks the run on physical will "destroy the fractional reserve bullion market".

But as I said before (almost rhetorically) as one BB after another declares force majeure, From ABN/Amro to Rabobank to JPM to COMEX / LBMA what is to keep the betting arenas from continuing on?

I guess it's a matter of degree as to what makes a bullion market a bullion market, but even today, as we all know, the "bullion market" is 99% price betting and 1% delivery in the West.

When it's finally 0% delivery will it have changed so much?

We will all still place our bets against one another's bets for paper gain.

Will we not?

tEON said...

@Wil

Jim, and I have been friends for a couple of years. Great guy but certainly no FG'er. However, I did like this FG-ish sounding quote from his last newsletter although I am unfamiliar with 'EuroRaj'.

"The collapse in paper gold price is confirming big moves in the background already taking place or planned in the very near future. Be sure to know that no bottom exists, as there is no market, the balance between Supply & Demand long ago abandoned. Physical Gold has gone into hiding. It will soon vanish from bullion merchant shops and then from jewelry stores across the world, in defiance. The climax will be the broad realization that no COMEX gold market exists, all a sham." ~ EuroRaj

Beer Holiday said...

@Woland

Oops - I think you and BF have already exceeded my so called answer by many hundreds of years.

I guess I should have been more specific "what is the oldest house in Australia " Hint, it wasn't necessarily built in Australia :-)

Beer Holiday said...

Points go to BF and Woland who are technically correct.

Even a google search strongly disagrees with what IMHO is the answer:

It's Captain Cook's cottage! Built in 1755 in England, they moved out to the colony later. Almost all other buildings are post 1788 - not very old. It now lives in a park.

I'll be much more careful with my quiz wording next time :-)

Bright aurum said...

@Beer Holiday
What about the House of Windsor?
It still holds some sway.

Beer Holiday said...

@BA

Haha, had a good laugh at that!

Bright aurum said...

Enjoy

JR said...

Hi Aquilus,

Thank you for your sharing your insightful personal experiences. It is refreshing to have some experiential, as opposed to somewhat theoretical commentary on HI. It is certainly a heady and confusing topic. I wanted to briefly expound on some of your great comments on silver, hopefully you can help me parse through some of the finer nuances. Thanks in advance!

[Aquilus:] Just one minor clarification: the prices are still in local currency, just indexed to the stable foreign currency.

Doesn't this assume there is a stable foreign currency? There are certainly parallels between the currency collapse of a small nation your father experienced and the envisioned $ HI discussed here, but also enormous differences. For example:

[FOFOA:] This is different than past currency collapses because the dollar is the global reserve currency.
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/06/old-hyperinflation-question.html

If the euro quickly finds its footing and gets the physical gold market flowing pronto, sure there can be a stable foreign currency for reference. But that may not happen so instantaneously. Certainly an international transactional void is a big issue that the Superorganism would not do without for some time, but that is a big task, so I'm not so comfortable assuming its happens like flipping a switch. The Euro, like us all, is a human creation, run buy humans, and subject to human failings. Not that I don't think the Euro will succeed, or that there is not evidence that folks way above my pay grade may be continuing to support the $IMFs to help ensure a smooth transition, but I am not so comfortable assuming $ collapse will be as orderly as some seem to implicitly suggest.

cont.

JR said...

cont.

[Aquilus:] Oh, and no, they did not take silver, gold, IBM stocks, bottles of rum, cans of soda or anything other than cash for payment at the stores (smile).

All assets must be transformed into acceptable cash. Think of all the stores you go to. Do you really see the grocery store clerk trying to figure out how many silver eagles it will take to complete your purchase? Really?


Stores - What Modern Hyperinflation Looks Like? Not to say there wouldn't be stores, but a big idea is goods stop flowing in HI because the currency is collapsing. Sure that wouldn't necessarily last ad infinitum, but discounting the serious supply chain disruptions a dollar collapse could cause seems optimistic. Maybe all that one needs one wouldn't get from a store, and having a barter /pawn asset, a secondary currency of sort isn't a bad thing.

[FOFOA"] There will be shortages. Supply lines will be disrupted.
[...]
There is lots of "stuff" here in the States. Lots and lots of it! And much of that stuff will become a secondary currency of sorts when the hunger sets in. That's how an impoverished, unemployed American will get his hand on the new US$1 billion note. He'll sell his iPad to a government stooge for a billion so he can buy a loaf of bread!

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-gap-in-understanding-weakens.html

[Aquilus:]There's always your local pawn store who will gladly give you LESS than market value for your assets if you need cash. So during HI, selling assets is a bad idea.

I think its equally a bad idea to try to proceed with unmet neeeds, paticularly basic needs. Even assuming that big box stores or the like don't see huge supply chain disruption and adquate goods exist for purchase in HI, HI = a shortage of cash, so assuming you will access to sufficient cash may be overly optimistic. Having barter/pawn assets to employ during this time if needed is not uncalled for those of us not so lucky as to live on a self-sufficient farm with a store of provisions for months to bide the time (or with good friends/family who do).

cont.

JR said...

cont.

That your dad experienced a "reasonably calm HI" and not a global reservce currency collapse with a balls to the wall HI with a feedback loop many posit will occur as the dollar loses internaitonal support is not something to be dismissed out of hand, is it? $HI discussed here is an expectation of something diffrent form most recent currency collapses, yes?

True balls-to-the-wall hyperinflation requires a feedback loop of both value and volume. Value drops, so volume expands, so value drops more…. Without the feedback loop, you simply get the Icelandic Krona or the Thai Baht. With the USG in the loop, you get Weimar!

It seems a small country's currency collapsing and a $ collapse may not play out quite the same. As an American with many loved ones and cherished friends here, I certainly hope the US gets it together ASAP. But one of the big messages here is to be prepared, take personal responsibility for your future. Erring on preparing for the worst as best you can while hoping for the best is not the wrst tack you could take.

===============

"[Aquilus:] Enough with the silver!""

Why? FOFOA has claimed to owning silver in the past, I dunno what he does now. I don't think its unreasonable to own silver, I do. I think the key is understanding why one might want to own silver, and how that is different from the rational for owning gold

cont.

JR said...

cont.

"[Aquilus:] Sure, anything can store value: silver, painting, collectibles, real estate, copper, etc. Will they all have some value that is non-zero in the future: YES - no one denies that.

However, if the dollar monetary system collapses (as the purchasing power of the dollar collapses) there is ONLY ONE OTHER asset that is ALREADY possessed by both central banks and "giants" that can recapitalize their balance sheet. That's right: the choice is already made: gold.
"

Gold is going to be revalued, but that is discrete from HI. Sure paper gold collapsing and HI are likely to be concurrent events, but Gold's revaluation may not be instantaneous:

[FOFOA:] To view this properly, you have to realize that because gold is globally fungible, and the dollar is the global reserve currency and global accounting standard, gold's value reset will have nothing to do with inflation.
Gold's value reset will be from a shift in function, as it absorbs and inherits the global purchasing power that was previously stored in dollar-denominated contracts, including US Treasury bonds, on the balance sheets of the most powerful Central Banks in the world.

Everything else that is a fine store of value like fine art, classic cars, gem stones and commodities, will retain their present purchasing power (or close to it), but gold will be different. Gold will switch roles, from commodity to wealth reserve par excellence.

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/06/old-hyperinflation-question.html

As Gold's reset in function/value isn't driven by HI, it might not happen instantaneous to HI - gold may "go into hiding." Particularly in the US if the USG doesn't "immediately capitulate" to the Superorganism's wishes for soem time before it eventually has to cry uncle and get the gold flowing again:

[FOFOA:]The other school of thought, the one that I do subscribe to, is that it will be supply-driven… from the top down. My school of thought says that the average man on the street will only understand how precious physical gold really is after Freegold is revealed in stark relief. It says that the supply flow of physical gold will someday undergo a phase transition whereby it goes into hiding due to the crashing price of its paper proxies. It says that physical gold, during this phase-shift, will further consolidate in the hands of only those who understand it as wealth and nothing else, bringing us to a new, physical-only price range (in real terms).
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2012/12/what-is-gold.html

So maybe having some somewhat transactional hard assets ("aka barter or pawn goods") that "retrain their purchasing power" during that time (the potential "gold in hidingz' stage, or as discussed below, the middle of the three phases when your gold won't be easy to trade beyond the "official, legal price of gold) might come in handy for protecting one's gold and getting them what they need while we are waiting to get through the transition and out to the other side of the waterfall.

And hey, if you don't need it you'll have afun story, you hav acted to prevent psosible harm, as as stuff like silver and other real goods maintain value, you won't take a bath on it but can sell it for reasonable value

cont.

JR said...

cont.

I miss Costata, and one thing I associate with him was the notion of using silver, cash and other assets to *protect* one's true treasure, one's gold, until the transition is complete. To get you through what FOFOA has described as the "peak risk" time.

"[FOFOA:] if you take the time to really understand Freegold-RPG, what I write about here, you'll know that getting there consists of three phases: a stasis followed by a punctuation followed by a new stasis. And it is during the punctuation phase or "transition" that I believe we will have a brief period of "peak risk". What risk, you ask? Well, it is the risk that your expected transition gain will be taken (or simply kept) by someone else, and you'll be cashed out at the official, legal price of gold; a price at which no physical can be found at that time."
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2011/08/treasure-chest-2-game-changer.html

So yeah, I hold silver because it, like all other real goods, is to some degree a store of value (although not necessarily the best SOV in the long run) and I think it *may* have the chance to help protect me and my gold.

Are we being unfair towards silver and other real goods, or at least somewhat overstating the case? Certainly your comments seemed to be directed towards an audience that seems to suggest silver and gold stand on equal footing, and this is clearly folly. Gold is the clear choice for a long term SoV. But you have to get there (the "long run") to reap that bounty.

Maybe there is a role for silver and/or other real assets, certainly for the more risk averse among us. What do you think?

burningfiat said...

I understand people who stack silver for the transition because it makes them feel better. Unfortunately it might not work for them at that exact time.
For harsh, but realistic views on silver's performance during HI I usually turn to poopyjim...

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2013/04/open-window-forum.html?commentPage=2&showComment=1366224188659#c585453941493946885

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2013/04/open-window-forum.html?commentPage=3&showComment=1366247223015#c5315990592617691439

I haven't been able to find a flaw in Jim's reasoning here...
I would also like/wish silver to perform as a hedge/guard for me, but perhaps it is just not going to...

/BF

Polly Metallic said...

JR,

You raise many good points. US$ Hyperinflation will be different than experienced in less strategic currencies. I used to think silver would be a reasonably good alternative asset to hold during the transition. Now I don't think so. BTW, FOFOA has also revised his opinion on holding a modest amount of silver and has gotten rid of all but a few sentimental pieces. One of the reason I changed my mind about silver is that there are too many "silver stackers" who have set aside pounds and pounds of silver waiting for it to zoom in value and change their lifestyles! They have put virtually all their disposable income into silver. Yes, many also have supplies set aside too in case of disaster, but they are cash poor. If they need money during a crisis, there will be billions of ounces of silver flooding the market which will certainly depress the price. It won't be worthless, but it won't be the best asset to store. It's good that it is reasonably liquid and can be sold to a coin or pawn shop, but I'm not keen on selling assets at depressed prices!

A better holding during the transition is either end of the value spectrum. IMO you either want items that everyone needs and uses every day but may not have stored. That would be everything from food to coffee to shampoo and deodorant to toilet paper and laundry soap. The other end of the spectrum includes high end rare items that only the wealthy can afford. Collector coins. High end watches. The best of the best in any category. Rare items always have a market. Most shrimp aren't likely to have and store those kinds of assets, though, so the common useful items are best.

Already, during the recession, people have depressed the price of low and mid range luxuries such as the more common models of Rolexes and diamond rings and designer jewelry etc. All these non-necessities come on the market when people need cash. Silver will be dumped like a flood when shrimp need the cash.

said...

JR, given the option wouldn't you rather have eexcess gold protecting you gold rather than excess silver? Why not buy a 50g valcambi bar over $100 face of junk silver? It is not like the silver you buy now to "protect" your gold is free. You are buying it instead of gold. The question becomrs if you HAD to sell before the revaluation, why would silver be more valuable than gold?

I just find the whole notion of protecting one asset with another stupid. And just an illusion of the mind.

Anonymous said...

or maybe silver is to play its role during transformation. Number of units owned by shrimps and historical (it is more than that - something we have heard all our lives "gold AND SILVER") will make it Money for this time. It will circulate in opposite to gold(which goes to hiding). So in fact it is silver that will "help" gold preserve/establish its SOV status.

ps. sorry for my english + random thoughts

Polly Metallic said...

tazio,

I don't think the transition period will be long enough for silver to become accepted as money, even if that were a likely outcome (and I don't find that outcome likely, anyway). Also, not enough people hold or understand silver for it to function as money. Relatively few people hold silver, and those who do hold it have a large quantity. For it to function as money you would need the opposite: a wide distribution of small amounts of silver so that the majority of people could use it and benefit.

The only use silver would be is simply as one of any number of items that holds it's value better than hyperinflating currency, and there are too many more practical items to serve that purpose.

Anand Srivastava said...

Luke: Exactly my thoughts.

I have also bought Velcambi 50gm bars for the crisis. I hate it that they had to patent the technology, and hence have a much higher premium compared to normal bars.

Anand Srivastava said...

I also have some bitcoins, which I think will fare better than silver during the crisis. I do think it will be banned in India though :-(. Still I think there will be people wanting to buy them though. Anyway I have done a very small hedge in them. My main reliance is in gold, holding its value better than everything else.

DP said...

In HI the value of the currency is collapsing against something else: capital is fleeing to some alternative store of value or another. There is greater confidence in something else.

Until GOLD's revaluation, "gold" is actually falling alongside silver and every other "asset" — which are being liquidated for cash… a deflationary fake-out as first confidence is lost in a growing list of financial assets (h/t Mr Exter), before the inevitable currency-printing response (h/t Mr Mosler) ultimately causes the final loss of confidence in the currency too.

So isn't the best thing to hold, to protect your assets pre-revaluation (gold simply being the last of which you will choose to liquidate, because you are expecting it to be revalued — which is actually the opposite of the most rational plan in the past since gold would be the most liquid market outside of cash, meaning you will suffer the smallest haircut in trade compared to other assets) … [pauses for dramatic effect] … physical cash dollar bills?

Once the exchange value of dollar cash notes is finally collapsing, this implies there is by now something else that everyone is moving their capital into as an alternative store of value, which they have greater confidence in. The euro will go down in exchange value against the dollar, pre-transition — by design. So it's not likely to be the euro people first run to from the dollar.

It seems clear to us, they (BIS/ECB) are expecting this gold-market-breaks event (even if they do not deliberately bring it about, merely stop preventing it). I can't believe they do not have a pretty clear idea of their plan for when "it" finally happens. I feel they're not likely to sit on their hands for an extended period and allow "the new alternative store of value people run to" to be "everything that isn't nailed down" — this is just not at all compatible with their mandate. And a chaotic scene such as this doesn't seem conducive to global-trade-business-as-usual?

My feeling is that the BIS/ECB will waste very little time after the gold market finally breaks (by which I mean "fails to deliver physical whenever demanded", rather than "hedgefunds dump their XAU, and other gold-proxies, en-masse") before they will put their pre-prepared plan into action. I don't expect gold to go unvalued and in hiding for very long at all. Nobody really wants the collapse of global trade, which if it should happen would take a world of pain to rebuild. Why would they plan for that?

So the difficulty seems to me to be dealing with whatever period of head-fake deflation we have to go through, while the "gold" (and silver! and everything else!) price is falling but the market is still able to perform physically. And, as we all know, silver (and miners!) offers leverage to the movements of the gold price! … #WINNING?

Surely the tell will come that the end is nigh, when bonds and equities are both falling, alongside every other asset class. So there is nowhere to run but cash. For a while. THIS is the "transition" we should be attempting to prepare for, no? Prechter's fifteen minutes.

Anonymous said...

In case someone missed it...

http://kiddynamitesworld.com/precious-metals-charlatans-freaks-of-the-industry/

DP said...

Ice will break a thousand sculptures

And we can't have that now, can we!

DP said...

So let's finally fix things, once and for all.

Anonymous said...

DP,

Thanks for exposing your view. Can you elaborate on why it must be physical cash? You expect banks to close their doors? If so how will the "value" of bonds and equities flow to cash??
Why must the exchange value of the Euro fall significantly? Do you foresee capital controls being imposed, stopping the sellers of both equities and bonds of buying Euros with their newly acquired Dollars? Why would they not diversify into Euros if given the chance? If the Euro holders don't want no stinking dollars... doesn't that mean that the value of the dollar is actually collapsing wrt to the Euro?

Cheers
JV

Anonymous said...

@Polly Metallic,

[..]Also, not enough people hold or understand silver for it to function as money. Relatively few people hold silver, and those who do hold it have a large quantity. For it to function as money you would need the opposite: a wide distribution of small amounts of silver so that the majority of people could use it and benefit.
Those who have huge quantity will use/lose it faster - distribution will be quick at the beginning.

The only use silver would be is simply as one of any number of items that holds it's value better than hyperinflating currency, and there are too many more practical items to serve that purpose.
I would strongly disagree here - comparing silver MINTED COINS to any other physical items.
Silver is also "focal point" in its silverish way. "Gold and silver" from few thousand years old bible scripts until now. "Gold and silver" - it is very bold to throw silver away from its status.
I understand and agree with supreme status of gold as SoV. I understand that for giants silver as SoV is out of scope. But ants can not afford hiding for longer (as Giants will).
I just can't let go that easily this mental status that silver earned for thousands of years...

Tommy2Tone said...

"I just can't let go that easily this mental status that silver earned for thousands of years..."

Just for fun, let's change a word.

""I just can't let go that easily this mental status that the horse earned for thousands of years..." said the farmer to the guy in the funny looking, smelly, loud contraption.

Tradition is a poor reason IMO.

DP said...

You expect banks to close their doors?

In a world without honour, but with a shortage of cash and plenty of bail-in to go around, that doesn't seem necessary?

Anonymous said...

@jojo,
"I just can't let go that easily this mental status that the gold earned for thousands of years..." said the grandfather to the grandson with the funny looking data storage device with some pool of uniquely signed bits... ;)

DP said...

Why must the exchange value of the Euro fall significantly?

Because deflation is incompatible with 'price stability'. The euro is not a premiere store of value - it is a premiere unit of account and medium of exchange.

This also actually makes it a reasonably good store of value, but still not the premiere one.

S P said...

Part of the reason why I dishoarded my silver was I just got tired of tracking it all.

Let's suppose you keep just fiat and gold. In this case, there are still so many things to think about. How much cash do you hold? Where do you keep your cash? How much do you keep in the bank and at which banks? Where do you keep your physical gold? What gold accounts do you have and how confident are you that they will survive the transition?

Now think about it. This is in addition to all the complexities of daily life that you have to deal with it, and all of the various other preparations you are making for what's coming.

So who wants to follow silver in addition to all of the above? Doesn't it strike you as a trader's business-as-usual mentality to do so?

Fiat + gold + preparations is really all you need. And this is enough, it's enough to keep you mentally and physically busy for the rest of your days.

Tommy2Tone said...

The sun is high & I'm surrounded by sand
For as far as my eyes can see
I'm strapped into a rockin' chair
With a blanket over my knees
I am a stranger to myself
And nobody knows I'm here
When I looked into my eyes
It wasn't myself I'd seen
But who I've tried to be
I'm thinking of things I'd hoped to forget
I'm choking to death in a sun that never sets
I clogged up my mind with perpetual greed
And turned all of my friends into enemies
And now the past has returned to haunt me
I'm scared of god And scared of hell
And I'm caving in upon myself
How can anyone know me
When I don't even know myself

By: Dollar Bill ;)Giant

Michael dV said...

tazio
I reject silver as a SoV for 2 reasons. First as PM notes, only a few people understand it. Second, as an official SOV all nations have rejected it, the last being China in 1935. For silver to regain status and recognition would require a massive and intentional effort. That effort would likely have to come from above and since silver can't be used as a currency SoV (as discovered by various nations before and after China) I seriously doubt it would happen.
If CBs have an agreed upon SoV why would they want a second one? Competing with silver would be a slew of other commodities and no commodity makes an ideal SoV as it denies the collective the use of those items that are being hoarded.
I suspect the founders of the Euro thought long and hard on this issue. The more I see what they have done the more I respect the work they did.
I think that it will be most amusing to watch the response of the world as they come to realize what the Euro truly is and the position the ECB will be in after the whistle blows on the dollar game.

Dante_Eu said...

Here's some funny stuff:

Peter Schiff Does Stand Up Comedy 7/21/13 in NYC

Peter is a funny guy! :D

Anonymous said...

DP,
I can see why the banks would close the doors, but how can equities and bonds bid for dollars if that is the case?
And regarding the Euro, if the FED will not be able to fight that deflationary blip what makes you think the ECB will? Do you see the ECB bidding for gold with newly printed Euros? Wouldn't that trigger FG immediately? Why would the ECB even try to flight it, assuming they know its very temporary? The stability mandate is yearly, not weekly.
Too many question I know, just trying to get my head around it.

Sam said...

@Michael

I agree with you

I guess another way to put it is everything is a store of value (including silver) but the world elites (central banks, governments, super producers) will only use one to value currencies and their choice is gold. It has all the qualities they would want and is the least useful to industry. To choose 2,3, or 4 commodities would rob the economies of those commodities as well and for what purpose would that serve. That would be a foolish notion and these people aren't fools. To place gold in its role of SoV will require a 1 time large revaluation of gold against all other things. No factories will shut down because they can't afford the gold in their widgets anymore. Elites like it better when the common man has little direct reason for calling for their blood in the streets. A well thought out plan indeed

Bright aurum said...

Thank you DP for your insights,
We are on the same page concerning HI (the hyperprinting phase actually) as you might have noticed in my replies to spaul67. I will never forget your kind guidance to me when I first came here. Now you are helping other people see the light. Thank you.

Joe Vanderbilt
So many questions and yet so thoroughly answered in this wonderful blog. Just dig in and you will learn that and so much more.

S P
What you mention strikes so many familiar chords to me. When I got out of Ag was such a relief. Now I am having a problem with storing my Au and keeping it safe and secret. Keeping track; opening/ closing of stashes remembering purities. I guess I`ll just have to give up for now this Griffen good logic notwithstanding or I`ll have to find the time(/die a little) and strength to take action and change from within because for now I can`t change it being a shrimp (400oz bars would have greatly improved my situation, wouldn't they).

Anand and Biju perhaps
Could you please shed some light on the question of the popular understanding of gold in India. Huge swaths of population -
the Dalit people/Untouchables or the poor in general seam not to have much gold and will remain destitute even after FG, perhaps even much more so. The overcrowding seams like an intractable problem, Maoism, 'Egyptianism' (which is no different than providing weak, pseudo religious solution to a overpopulation beyond nature`s abilities to support problem = eugenics/some kind of genocidal cleansing happening behind the stage having the ethnic/religious differences as an excuse).Thank you

Bright aurum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sean said...

It's exactly because of silver's industrial use that I wouldn't like to own any into the transition - silver didn't do so well during the last economic collapse in 2008, dropping well over 50%. Of course buying at that low-point was profitable last time - but will it "outperform" gold??!

Unknown said...

IMHO ...
IF ... I say IF a dollar hyperinflation were to play out as quickly as some past HI's have (which I don't expect BTW) we would probably see American produced items priced similarly to today.

Imported items (depending upon the supplier's exchange rate) could be so expensive that dollars would seldom be used and the new "reserve" or equity-based currency would be used instead.

Consumption volume would probably limit their importation unless the good or service was in high enough demand by high wage earning surviving jobs/incomes.

Hybrid items, where parts and or assemblage are both foreign and domestic should find some price equilibrium in between the two extremes.

This state of affairs will gradually (quicker if the right leader steps up) help drive the message home that the USA must again become a superproducer to:

1) Sustain its own social fabric, and
2) Regain its lost status and support among the ROW

So with this (to be seen as apparently necessary) pain will come gain, a necessary corrective lesson that life teaches all cultures who abandon the discipline of their value/money system.

We often speak of the forensic analysis of a future USHI, but there is a social/psychological element that I find far more interesting, and ultimately almost "Karmic" in its balancing of the human element.

Simply put, we fucked with the money over here, and now it's gonna kick our asses, but that ass kicking is going to slowly and painfully help us get our house in order, and return us to a healthy relationship with our value system.

This simple truth we learn from the flow-er of understanding.

Bright aurum said...

@Wil Martindale
You are mostly correct except for the unintended consequences and the inner workings of the economy in reference to the global supply/demand chain which could at that time be changing itself.

Bright aurum said...

Inner - outer dependencies are not easily resolved in a turbulent environment without a stable currency as a reference of value. Even if one uses other nations currencies for the reference`s sake. The time factor (e.g. misjudging the other currency depreciation in and of itself) and the inefficiency of the information could screw things up.

Unknown said...

To wit, there is some hard work and effort expended in extracting and refining gold (silver too!) into an acceptable "monetary" grade form.

Isn't it a strange coincidence that the working class of cultures who believe in "hard money" as a form of wealth seem to have a moral character that is equally disciplined?

Isn't it also funny how a culture that produces "value at will" seems to display a moral character that is just as "fast and easy" as its money system?

Forget for a moment any confusion between "FIAT" and "wealth". Here I talk of money as a form of "wealth".

We are judged (FICO) by the wages we work for (and hopefully earn) and the debts we pay.

Our earnings or wages (or our "entitlements") represent our ability to repay debt and accrue wealth.

Sad but true, we value things, including ourselves, in terms of our money, it is so intrinsic to our "value system".

Does the money affect the culture? Or does the culture affect the money?

Isn't it both? Yet does it really matter if the corelation is undeniable? More than likely, it is a cycle that perpetuates itself.

We see the moral character of those of Western culture, who amass many dollars through methods of poor moral character to say the least, as clear and undeniable. And this is loathed by cultures who work hard for a fraction of those "earnings".

We also see entitlements and the moral character and values of the entitled as somewhat different than those who earn, do we not?

With "value at will" there is a form of entitlement to both ends of the spectrum who prefer not to earn, those who will atke something for nothing, and those who will take all, because they can.

In between is left the true wage earner, who should be the moral "winner" but instead is the moral "loser". He works for what other steal or are given.

So goes morality. But balance will come.

That is what Freegold is about to some.

To others ... A NIGHTMARE !!

Unknown said...

Bright,
I'm not discounting those nuamces in my thinking. I was just trying to point out some likelihoods that I wasn't hearing further back the trail.

Just the same, the USA can become a more or less "closed system" under its dollar to the extent that it can provide for itself.

To the extent that it can, outer dependencies will not matter, to the extent that it cannot, they will. That is the point I'm trying to make.

There was a recent, and fairly empirically sound study by the IMF citing increased business cycle regionalism despite our globalized system, which appeared to have caught the group by surprise.

But there has been much said about the failure of globalism, and the retreat back to nationalism in other fairly credible publications.

The point notwithstanding is that the US is becoming more and more isolated, and in some ways irrelevant (along the lines of recent Jim Willieness) and will probably need to "fend for itself" as its ExPriv slips away?

Do you not think ... ?

The flower surely does ...

Aquilus said...

JR

I just saw your questions/comments. I hope to be able to answer you tomorrow if time permits. I think that they deserve a detailed answer.

Before I log off though, yes, when I said "enough with the silver" I meant: enough with associating silver and gold as commodities, on the same footing, enough with the Gold/Silver ratio talk as it will be meaningless when gold does not trade as a commodity, and to a lesser extend enough about trading in general - there are plenty of PM trading sites for that.

Aquilus

Unknown said...

Aquilus,
Good Sir, as regards silver I really thought this spoke volumes.

Happy Trail!

Unknown said...

And ...

here ... we ...

GO!

byiamBYoung said...

I found this encouraging:

Central Banks to add to gold reserves

If CBS are adding (on average) then we are only going forward toward the reset.

Cheers

michael3c2000 said...

BYoung you're right, stable currency we need so much. Aquilus will she a halt to leveraged speculative computerized trading that much sooner. Like WM just said, balance will come, not so much because it's a product of some grand plan dreamed up by oligarchs, aristocrats or tycoons. Because it's one of BA's 'unintended consequences'. Because people want to live in peace, their guns and resourceandslave-based missiles having failed them. Because there are enough informational and human developments and structures in place that can and are making a difference, with building momentum, purpose and enlightenment, towards ending war, usury, hunger, pollution, mitigating it and preventing it more rapidly than is commonly acknowledged as possible. To end waste and fraud that threatens all life on earth, more than any Russian/American nuclear threat ever did in it's heyday, becomes a fait accompli, a code of honor and a golden rule and trail for the future, to ensure a future and to see finally see how the present and the future, and their generations, are inseperable and one. Joe V brought up the ECB stability mandate, and gold will symbolize the way forward, whether an economic, monetary or financial stability individually, locally, globally or the path out of usury, war and extinction. If you will own it this year or like BAurum's untouchables, touch it not, it will touch all.

M said...

@ bBY

Nice simple post. I found it interesting that Greece has bought gold for 9 months in a row !! ???

"At the same time for the ninth straight month, Russia added to its reserves along with Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Greece, Belarus and Bulgaria."

Anand Srivastava said...

Bright Aurum:

In India, Gold has a very different place. Its not of investment. It is about storing excess earnings. Everybody (except the newer generation), buys gold for their children, to give it to them at the time of marriage. This is done by everybody according to their earnings. It is done by the richest and by the poorest. People are not yet used to living on borrowed money.

The last 15 years or so have been an aberration, because of first rising stock market, then rising real estate, people have instead started to gamble in stocks and RE. This is true mostly of the middle class. The richer class still puts enough in jewelry, and the poor do not understand stocks, and are not rich enough for RE.

It is the middle class that will be the biggest loser of the coming revaluation. But still most middle class people (except the young generation getting now around to marrying) have a couple of 100gms of gold due to traditional requirement of gold jewelry in marriage. The very young may not have any gold, because they don't think much of gold, and only want diamonds, and their parents also think more about RE and stocks.

So the point is that the poor would probably have more gold than the young middle class recently married couples. The only poor people who will suffer will be the ones who like to have all the modern stuff, more than gold. I don't think there are many of this type in the south, but in the north there may be a sizeable population of these type of people.

Bright aurum said...

@ anand srivastava
Thank you.

Unknown said...

Anand,
Sorry to hear of this abberation. It sounds as though Western "values" have followed the gold, and along with them the bubble schemes and false pretense of easy wealth used to steal true wealth away, just as Damon Vrabel and others predicted.

A friend who writes to me from New Zealand has offered up some links regarding saber rattling in China against the West.

My response was:
"I’ve spoken about (war) but always thought it was such a waste that the money power who controls the world’s largest military complex would abandon it in favor of the more profitable slow death of the world’s working classes through wealth confiscation in stealth mode.

I still do. It’s really the only thing that allows me to sleep well at night. Human nature. Greed needs a living host to feed upon, not smoldering rubble. Just look at all the yellow wealth flowing into middle class China to be stolen away after Western values are introduced, nurtured and milked."


Perhaps we can say the same of middle class India, and perhaps even moreso now. Some people are content to live a modest life, an honest days work for an honest days pay.

When the real estate bubble expanded so ridiculously here in the US I saw many friends caught up in the hysteria of easy money an some did make a quick dollar but most were too blinded by greed to get out early enough, and most lost, while several defaulted.

Those who defaulted will not have access to easy money until after the change (thus never) and meanwhile the target moves East, following the movement of true wealth.

It's been done for many, many generations, but to see the cycle play out once in a lifetime, as with the repricing of gold, is enough for me.

DP said...

Hi, Joe.

Asking questions is good. How else can I get my head around this situation?

I can see why the banks would close the doors

Why is that?

but how can equities and bonds bid for dollars if that is the case?

Do dollars need banks? Do banks need dollars?

Banks have promised plenty of dollars. They can deliver as long as it is not widely demanded of them. Even then, won't they inevitably be able to? Is this a "good" quality in the underlying currency? "Bad"? "Both"? … "It depends?" (… On what?)

And regarding the Euro, if the FED will not be able to fight that deflationary blip what makes you think the ECB will?

Tradition…?

Do you see the ECB bidding for gold with newly printed Euros?

Is it more likely they might bid for old euros with their gold, if the need arises?

Wouldn't that trigger FG immediately?

Perhaps a moot point?

Is this a more applicable precursory question? "Could they bid for gold with dollars?"

Why would the ECB even try to flight it, assuming they know its very temporary?

Fight what?

The stability mandate is yearly, not weekly.

Yes! +1 no question.

So many questions! So little time.

Wishing you a great day! ;-)

Zebedee said...

'Diversification is protection against ignorance. It makes little sense if you know what you are doing' - Warren Buffet.

You can find me at the All Inn.

DP said...

Dollars-bid-for-gold-bids-for-euro

The ECB can do this, and more, any time it wants to … all on its lonesome.

What do you want to do today? #WINNING

DP said...

Ahhhh! So there's what they have to keep fighting!

The urge to destroy $IMFS today.

Must. Try. Harder.

Dante_Eu said...

Good documentary: The Crash of 1929

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

It's always, always: "The new era..." :-)


Drea - ea - ea -ea -

eam, dream, dream,

dream

Woland said...

Finally! Some creative thinking. Treasury to offer floating rate note
in January.

"The instrument, set to be auctioned for the first time in January 2014,
is the first new product from Treasury in 15 years". (Yankee ingenuity
at work)

{:<)>>

Anonymous said...

DP,

I have a hard time following your reasoning, maybe because English is not my native language. :)

It seems to me that what your scenario is at odds with FOFOA's from the post "Euro Conversion". Is it not? Would the difference be that FOFOA sees the gold paper market imploding "out of the blue" when a low enough $POG is reached, while you see a previous crises where bonds and equities are collapsing?

Cheers

ps: I meant "Why would the ECB even try to flight the deflationary blip, assuming they know its very temporary?"

Michael dV said...

We here are doing what people have done throughout time. We are trying to understand the craziness and willingness to be lied to by a majority of the population. We are seeing the majority heading for disaster and we are correcting course. The Chinese use the same character for 'disaster' as they do for 'opportunity'. We see what is coming and are preparing.
This does not make us that unusual. Many jews left Germany in the late 1930s. Many sold the market short in 1929.
the facts are there and are obvious. the only reason everyone is not screaming is that humans just do not seem to behave that way. Most want to be with the majority right or wrong. Being different can be hard but it can also be rewarding.
In the coming world there will be lots of survivors and among them you will be normal. It will take another few generations for the crowd to assert it's influence again and for a tulip market to again emerge. I'm not sure how you pass this info on to other though. It seems slogans like 'question authority' and 'do your own due diligence' don't get through to most people. Human nature I guess. It seems so obvious to me however that I have a hard time understanding others in my species.

DP said...

Joe,

(Thank you for clarifying what you meant they might be fighting.)

Yes it's true that the $GOLD price can deflate to the point it becomes unsustainable and the "gold" market breaks, without the bond and/or equity markets deflating at the same time. It could still happen today.

Whatever the situation when the "gold" market does finally break, I just can't imagine the BIS/ECB waiting for an extended period before acting. It just doesn't seem to be in their interest to do so.

Could a non-trivial period of grinding deflation make a low price of gold sustainable for longer than otherwise? That might be a harder scenario to plan for than the "break period" itself.

Gunnar Stødle said...

Here is a brief note from Robert A Mundel on Roman bimetallism;

I dont know how it will apply to free gold but maybe if the price of gold in silver is kept 100% above market, silver can function as a store of value for the shrimps?

In 46 B.C., Julius Caesar set the Roman monetary system on a 12:1 silver-to- gold basis and established the foundation for a kind of overvalued Roman gold standard, or limping bimetallism, that lasted through all of the Roman, and its Byzantine successors, rule until the sacking of Constantinople in 1204 A.D. How could the price of silver in terms of gold be kept constant for 1250 years? Only because one of the metals was overvalued.

The standard interpretations of the Roman monetary system are completely wrong. Nineteenth century scholars looked at the 19th century form of bimetallism, which was based on free markets and free coinage and incorrectly assumed that bimetallism had the same meaning back in Rome. In Rome, the market price ratio between silver and gold was about 6 1/2: 1, but the Romans priced gold at 12:1. They took a markup on their gold currency of about 100%. This kept the Roman system operating for the astonishing period of 1200 years. It was possible only as a result of a carefully enforced monopoly of gold production.

From:

The International Monetary System in the 21st Century: Could Gold Make a Comeback?

Motley Fool said...

This is worth posting :

Chart Of The Day: Foreigners Are Quietly Getting Out Of Dodge

Bright aurum said...

@Wil Martindale
See, as per the MF`s link just above the US may not be given the time to become self-sufficient. At least, not before it gives much of its ever higher priced gold while trying to balance its trade account.
Cheers

ein anderer said...

Nice short german piece by Nikolaus Jilch about »no gold confiscation!«.

byiamBYoung said...

@MF,

Almost posted that myself. It sure looks like another sign.

Cheers

byiamBYoung said...

So, GLD has reported the same number of tonnes for five days straight. I know this happened from time to time in the past, but it sure makes my Spidey-senses tingle.

Who can explain how this type of event can occur? I mean, this is not a small operation...it's not Goober's gas station. There had to be some kind of activity that would affect the measure of gold, right?

Any thoughts eagerly appreciated!

Cheers

michael3c2000 said...

Our Government is Now Orwell on Steroids By Dave Kranzler
Summary of GDP release today, true negative GDP numbers (showing recession last two quarters), GDP reformulation going retroactive almost 90 years and false debt/GDP ratio.
http://truthingold.blogspot.com/2013/07/our-government-is-now-orwell-on-steroids.html

tEON said...

@byiamBYoung
I don't know if this has any relevance but I looked at similar times of year for GLD and found these dates there was no movement:
Aug 10th - Aug 15th, 2012
July 28th - Aug 3rd, 2010
July 28th - Aug 6th, 2009
July 23rd - July 31st, 2008
July 19th - July 25th, 2007
Cheers,

byiamBYoung said...

@Gary

Thanks. Yup, it also seems like it happened with regularity when GLD first got started.

Odd.

Cheers

Aquilus said...

JR,

In order to do them justice, I'm going to address your comments as two separate issues. Because of time constraints these answers are "flow of consciousness" so please excuse any mistakes.

Although they will very much be in line with what FO/FOA have written on the subject (if they are not then the wording I used is wrong) I like to keep everything on the practical, common-sense, daily business level as much as possible.

For style, I will address the reader and mention JR's comments in the third person - seems to flow better.

Here we go:

(cont)

Aquilus said...

Issue#1: Existence of a stable foreign currency

[JR writes:]

"Doesn't this assume there is a stable foreign currency? There are certainly parallels between the currency collapse of a small nation your father experienced and the envisioned $ HI discussed here, but also enormous differences.
...
If the euro quickly finds its footing and gets the physical gold market flowing pronto, sure there can be a stable foreign currency for reference. But that may not happen so instantaneously
...
The Euro, like us all, is a human creation, run buy humans, and subject to human failings."


There are three concepts that come into play for this answer:

The first concept I want to remind everyone is that we should view the economy and our society as a whole as an ecology and not a machine. We remember FO/FO/A mentioning that many times(example Just Another Hyperinflation Post - Part 1), but where am I going with that here?

I want you to see our economy made up of individuals, each making decisions for their own benefit, always searching to optimize those decisions based on new information that arrives. This decision making is then fractally scaled to a group level - whether that be a family, a neighborhood, a small business, a medium-size business, all the way to the city, state and country scale.

Keep this in mind and we move on.

(cont 1)

Aquilus said...

The second concept to remind you of is what causes hyperinflation to accelerate instead of stopping. JR quotes FOFOA in this paragraph:

"[FOFOA writes:] True balls-to-the-wall hyperinflation requires a feedback loop of both value and volume. Value drops, so volume expands, so value drops more... Without the feedback loop, you simply get the Icelandic Krona or the Thai Baht. With the USG in the loop, you get Weimar!"

For any currency to loose value and keep on going we require the continuous feedback loop of deficit spending to cover government promises ("life-style"), and also that the goods needed cannot be purchased internally (where the government has absolute legislative powers).

If you look at what stopped every hyper-inflation event so far was the credible removal of need for deficit spending by the government.

Keep this in mind also, and we move on.

(cont 2)

Aquilus said...

The third concept to remember is that what is needed for a trade contract is really a unit of account (UoA) that the contract is denominated in. The medium of exchange (MoE) in which payment is made can be computed the day of the payment, and is really not that important. The store of value function (SoV) does not usually come into play unless it is a long term contract, and then it would be handled through agreeing to account for changes in the UoA purchasing power over the term of the longer contract - we won't go there.

So think of the supermarket and the distributor, or the distributor and the producer as needing these kind of contracts for both to be able to be interested in getting the trade done.

Ok, so now that we have a refreshed image of these concepts, how do they fit together in explaining the existence of a stable currency?


(cont 3)

Aquilus said...

There are many currencies in existence today, and a catastrophic failure in the purchasing price of the dollar would certainly affect the reaction of each and every currency issuer. The thing to keep in mind though is that a currency whose issuer does not need to be part of the feedback loop might experience a drop in purchasing power relative to real-world things, but it will not be an ongoing thing. That's where the second point above comes in (without a feedback loop, there's no continuous fall in purchasing power of the currency).

As our economy is really an ecosystem (first point above), there are a huge number of minds searching for what to use for a stable UoA so they can continue on. That drive is a primal drive, survival, at every level, whether it be individuals or businesses.

So if the Euro has not stabilized yet, they will look for the next currency that is somewhat stable (not perfect, just good enough). Will that be the Swiss Franc? Something else?

I don't know, but remember, we don't need the currency itself to change hands, we just needs the numerical information that the prices of goods in that currency gives us, and we can convert those by multiplying with the exchange rate at the time of payment.


(cont 4)

Aquilus said...

Obviously a "bigger" currency is better than a smaller one, but as long as there is at least one functioning currency that is not hyperinflating, it will be found and used. The fact that we are an ecosystem and not a machine, also means that we all like to imitate what we see working for others, so I assure you that within 2-3 days of the first use of one stable currency as UoA, that information will travel everywhere it is needed, because it is essential, willingly shared public information that standardizes trade terms again for everyone. That is the power of a "super-organism"...

So the simple answer is, if not the Euro, then the next one after that. If not that one the next one until we find one that is not losing purchasing power, and only has fluctuations in the numerical values because of global demand-supply changes. We use that.

Next time we need to do business, we re-evaluate. Did a "better" UoA become available that's getting more "network effect" from usage ? Great! Let's switch to that, and do our trade.


(cont 5)

Aquilus said...

2. Issue#2: Do we still need barter assets


I will start by showing some of the good points JR makes:


[JR writes:]

"Goods stop flowing to the stores. Maybe all that one needs one wouldn't get from a store, and having a barter /pawn asset, a secondary currency of sort isn't a bad thing.
...
HI = a shortage of cash, so assuming you will access to sufficient cash may be overly optimistic. Having barter/pawn assets to employ during this time if needed is not uncalled for those of us not so lucky as to live on a self-sufficient farm with a store of provisions for months to bide the time (or with good friends/family who do).
...
That your dad experienced a "reasonably calm HI" and not a global reserve currency collapse with a balls to the wall HI with a feedback loop many posit will occur as the dollar loses international support is not something to be dismissed out of hand, is it? $HI discussed here is an expectation of something different form most recent currency collapses, yes?
...
one of the big messages here is to be prepared, take personal responsibility for your future. Erring on preparing for the worst as best you can while hoping for the best is not the worst tack you could take.
...
maybe having some somewhat transactional hard assets ("aka barter or pawn goods") that "retrain their purchasing power" during that time (the potential "gold in hidingz' stage, or as discussed below, the middle of the three phases when your gold won't be easy to trade beyond the "official, legal price of gold) might come in handy for protecting one's gold and getting them what they need while we are waiting to get through the transition and out to the other side of the waterfall."


(cont 6)

Aquilus said...

The short answer is: you should FIRST make emergency preparations just like you would for a hurricane, earthquake or other natural disaster. Having the basics to survive for a period of time without needing to go to a store is essential. It is much more important than stocking up things like silver, palladium and rhodium (even gold at this stage). In other words: if possible, have the item you need itself, not some other asset you plan on trading for it. If possible...


Yes, government intervention through price controls, and other "helpful" measures can create a period of time in which the stores have empty shelves. But how much do you really need to live? Not that much really.. This is also a limited period as by their plain and obvious failure (after the fact) those restrictions will not be enforced (see Zimbabwe, Weimar and others) after a while unless the government likes riots directed at it and not the "speculators" any longer.

If it comes to it, the best tradable assets are essential consummables that people can't do without for long. But they only work on an individual to individual basis (or at the most with a small business/farmer that knows you), and once the stores have merchandise on the shelves again, unless you sell them to someone at a discount to the store's price, you will not sell them.

(cont 7)

Aquilus said...

Of course the other good point is: HI is really a shortage of currency (as the currency loses value). Yes! Which is why to get that currency you can do one of two things: sell your non-essential assets at a discount to someone that has extra currency, or be paid for your work/things you produce.

I say again, in HI most assets (and I mean assets like silver, cars,etc, not consumables like bread and cheese) sell at a discount because currency is in demand. And when I say at a discount, that does not mean that the price keeps going down in the hyper-inflating currency - no way. But in a parallel "stable" currency used as a unit of account (UoA to measure prices in), the prices of assets in that UoA would go down inside the hyperinflating area - remember, HI is a perpetual currency shortage.

Finally to address the meat of your question directly: I would first store food and survival necessities like you would prepare for a natural disaster, and only once you have that taken care of would I have "defense" assets available.

But let me make something clear, this is not Mad-Max world. your best defense is a skill that you can use to work and get paid during hyper-inflation. Selling assets should be a very temporary solution. It does not work as well as getting paid at the current going rate (smile).

(cont 8)

Aquilus said...

Finally, as for assets, not trying to be funny here, but I've seen that the ones that target essential needs are better than the usual precious metals. For example, people might value a compact car, a moped, a scooter, or a bicycle as an low-cost mode of transportation more as an item they want to purchase than a Rolex, or a bar of metal. The first will get them to-from work cheaply, the second only applies to those with excess cash as it has no practical purpose to most people). I have seen with my own eyes people sell appartments at 1/5 to 1/10th of what they were worth before HI (measured in stable UoA), same thing for more luxury cars, furs, jewelry, etc.

For the nth time: selling assets that are not essential needs during HI is a tricky proposition, you almost always take a cut because cash is so sparse.

Ok, so who is buying? Well, from what I saw, people that could export goods and get stable UoA for it or had family outside feeding stable UoA inside were one group. Also "essential" government personnel that was paid in the fresh cash indexed to the rate of hypre-inflation. Also producers of essential goods and deliverers of essential services were another group. And why were they buying? Because they were the only folks with spare cash (smile). And once you buy your necessities, you either exchange the local currency in stable UoA, or better yet, aquire those assets everyone is selling (appartments, jewelry, etc at fire-sale prices, and hold them until HI blows over and prices for them normalize again).


Hope these rambling comments made some sense (I wasn't as careful defining terms as I should be) and that I did not digress too much.

Aquilus

(end)

byiamBYoung said...

@ Aquilus

Wow! Excellent insight. Thank you!

Franco said...

Motley Fool:

I also noticed that chart on zerohedge. Very interesting. Seems like the mark of death to exorbitant privilege.

Freegoldtube said...

Investment Expert Edward Moyer talks with RT on The Case for Freegold and the Path to Hyperinflation
http://youtu.be/4YmNkDx4-NA

said...

Edward Moyer... he must be aware of FOFOA. Does he post here? Everything he said is inline with FOFOA. This blog was the first time I have been exposed to the Free Gold idea, but is it MUCH bigger than this blog?

FOFOA said...

Hello Luke,

It's Edwardo! An RT producer emailed me looking for an interview on the subject of Freegold. If I didn't want to do it, she asked me to recommend someone. I asked a couple of people who I thought would do well and Edwardo agreed to do it. How do you think he did? Brainwashed cult member or thoughtful and intelligent individual? ;D

Sincerely,
FOFOA

michael3c2000 said...

Gold is not so "useless" as it's commonly portrayed.
Gold IS an industrial metal, a strategic metal like silver and an exotic component to clasified technology. When I would regularly post page snippits from The Gold Institute and the link during the last decade, I assumed the information was widely known. Now the page is gone, many of the "uses" are not mentioned anywhere, and "The Gold Institute" is no more.
Still, there are hints of what the secret space program and black ops and black budget weapons and high tech can do with it in places like:
http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1109/9-unusual-uses-for-gold.aspx#axzz29sUVVS00
http://www.gold.org/technology/uses/ (From The World Gold Council LOL)
http://goldresource.net/modern-uses-of-gold (Note the space shuttle anecdote. Once again, the "best" is saved for last. Beam me up Scottie...)
http://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml
Excerpt: "Future Uses of Gold

Gold is too expensive to use by chance. Instead it is used deliberately and only when less expensive substitutes can not be identified. As a result, once a use is found for gold it is rarely abandoned for another metal. This means that the number of uses for gold have been increasing over time.

Most of the ways that gold is used today have been developed only during the last two or three decades. This trend will likely continue. As our society requires more sophisticated and reliable materials our uses for gold will increase. This combination of growing demand, few substitutes and limited supply will cause the value and importance of gold to increase steadily over time. It is truly a metal of the future..."

Mikal - Yes truly. The GDP is now inflated using R and D costs, inventory build, government spending and undereported inflation. This will eventually be reflected in the POG and POS, just as supply and demand dynamics will move forward to balance out some of their disequilibrium, and price transparency, quick delivery and audited, low-cost storage are some of the competitive selling points in emerging alternative markets... blah blah... I preach to the choir. :)

michael3c2000 said...

Great! Just what we need, a revision to a revised Dow, in a ratio with a revised revision of GDP, reported by a reporter's intern to whom awake is Red Bull and rippers.

michael3c2000 said...

OMG, FOFOA and crew begins to rock the airwaves.
Let me tell you something gents http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pFCPTYq5Tc Short session video, George Harrison's I Me Mine
"I I me me mine"... ;)

Bright aurum said...

@Aquilus
May I suggest that the 'price' of the essentials (food, fuel, medicaments) in the Hyperprinting phase will go up even in terms of a 'stable' UoA.
The rate of the $ depreciation plus the availability of these essentials for restocking in the supply chain will make sure that happens. May be it will be the end of wholesaling. The traders will know any time how much they can restock from their suppliers, the speed of delivery and the speed of depletion so as to calculate the 'price' in the UoA. If the depletion exceeds the availability to restock, the 'price' in the UoA can raise disproportionally (or the shelves may go empty) because the marginal buyer has to be discouraged until the supply/capital control bottleneck is resolved.
Cheers

Bright aurum said...

May I also suggest that if capital controls aren`t enforced (fingers crossed) there will be a pawn shop attached to every mall the way now a key-maker is. So that hard assets like say ...er.. silver are bought and exported for the stable UoA so that the operator`s business (the mall) can in essence 'sponsor' the essentials for government stooges` sake and for the sake of keeping the social structure from not descending into complete chaos.
And almost forgot: Excellent thoughts Aquilus!

ampmfix said...

Michael3c2000,

I was going to post this few days ago:

The usage of gold in the semiconductor industry is crucial, specifically in integrated circuit bond wires (because of conductivity AND ductility. Silver is not so easy to use by the bond wire machine that puts them in place). All chips in the world have bond wires. Then gold is also essential in connectors (RF), plating contacts and tracks, etc...

I made a back of the napkin calculation of the gold content in a common microprocessor (100 pins, this data is usually given by the manufacturers of chips in their websites when you look for "materials content" of chips) and if there is a reval of 40x, the price of the component would increase by around 30%.

Not a deterrent, but significant nonetheless.

One Bad Adder said...

Motley: - Time my friend, is the essence ...the "curve" is screwed because Yields in the further-out-dated Treasuries (at current IR's) can't be regarded as "riskless".
This has very little to do with a wholesale abandonment of Dollar-denominated Bonds ...and entirely due to a collapse into the "here-and-now" ...FWIW.
A Fool would be short short-term Treasuries "at present" ...IMHO.

Roacheforque said...

FOFOA,
The video is odd, it starts out with a girl named Boring (who definately isn't) and it seems to me to be mocking the traditional news delivery style (intentionally) so it seems dort of tongue-in-cheek.

Edwardo did a fantastic job and was spot on (no pun intended) with his delivery (still no pun intended) but I don't think the average Joe would "get it" from that brief treatment of two very complex subjects - these things just don't lend themselves (as you yourself have surely proven) to brevity.

Still, the fact that RT called you, and that they are aware of certain "thoughts" is quite interesting.

And any video treatment of the subject matter is always a pleasure to view as it represents a break from all the tedious reading.

Happy Trail!

Roacheforque said...

One of the things that stumps Freegolders is that well known reaction from the average person who, when you start talking about HI and the reset, claps their hands over their ears, closes their eyes and starts going "LaLaLaLalalalala".

But it occurs to me that we all have a "credibility threshold". There are certain things so dark and "conspiratorial" that even we here (who appear deadly Stoic to the average person) consider them rationally if not politically "incorrect" and belonging in the realm of wingnuts and bat-cavers, much in the way that we are viewed by the common sheople.

But there is no deed so dark, so despicable, so utterly unthinkable, that the CIA / Pentagon will not play out in an episode room, with the non-chalantness of a morning croissant, they are so used to such thoughts (and deeds).

Sp please forgive PCR if he mentions the word "Zion" as he is just a man whose credibility threshold has inched its way a bit further into that dark realm of "situation rooms" where NOTHING is taboo.

I do hesitate to post this, having expected it to have shown up here already (and I missed it if it has) so please forgive me as well, as I alsotest that threshold.

And I do believe the bond market collapse, as well as the run on physical, though in the early stages, are both well under way.

Aquilus said...

@Bright Aurum

Clearly you have seen hyper-inflation at work for yourself (smile). Yes, very good extra detail to complete the intricate picture...

Jeff said...

Test the threshold? You hurdled it; the good Dr. needs medication, Wil.

Good comments, Aquilus. In HI, people want cash.

FOFOA: There is always a shortage of cash during a full-bore, in-your-face hyperinflation, which is why the printer has to keep adding zeros. His press simply cannot keep up with prices at established denominations. It is also why the first to touch the new cash (the "elite") have a very valuable advantage. Hyperinflation is a grand competition for lifestyle retention in the face of forced austerity, just like a race! Here, look at this from the excerpt:

"Honey, I talked to Fred again, he can't sell his house! Poor guy, he has had it up for two years now and has to raise his asking price again. No takers, yet. The last couple was just about to close but took a month too long; they almost got the cash together, too. He backed out to raise the asking price, again. Oh well, that's not so bad, we had to jump ours up three times before selling."

I'll bet the deflationists were thinking in terms of deposit+loan=price, rather than cash. Wrong paradigm. Sorry. When the hyperinflation hits in a reference point purely-symbolic fiat currency paradigm, the market will try to clear for the rising symbolic cash price while the hard currency price (denominated in gold) continues to drop like a stone.

(...)

Once hyperinflation commences it is characterized by a running shortage of cash, even though it appears like the opposite to the outside observer. The currency collapses in value against economic goods because the debt and the credit collapsed. There is no credit, only cash, and there is a shortage of cash for everyone, including the Elite and the government. So they, the Elite/government, print and print for their own survival while saying it is for yours.

enough said...

Putin to Uncle Sam....fuck you :-)

Edward Snowden gets asylum in Russia

ein anderer said...

michael3c2000:
»limited supply«?
How much gold is »consumed« by the industry on a yearly basis? Some stats say 5,600t since 1980. So 150t every year? 200t?
We have 150,000 t above ground. And each year 2,000 t are to be added. Limited supply?

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

A clarifying point. As I understand it, the HI is already baked into the $. The HI everyone here is talking about is the recognition of this fact in Hyper Price Inflation. Correct?

Once HPI starts, the Fed won't be able to do anything about it. They could stop QE on a dime, but it won't matter to prices as the forign dollars flood the US.

As many others have pointed out, the QE is not about the economy, it's to prop up Treasury sales. It is in fact the direct result of the loss of support overseas. Dollars flooding the banks. The tide is indeed going out, just before the tsunami crashes ashore.

My point is that the HPI will not be due to a shortage of cash, but the recognition of an increadible glut of cash. The printing has already happened. Over 40 years of printing, with an extra QE kicker here at the end.

Aquilus said...

Tom R

Actually hyper-inflation is NOT baked in, but it's a the likeliest development.

What is baked in based on dollar issuance so far is a major loss of purchasing power for the dollar as confidence is lost.

Now comes the tricky part:

If the US Government magically manages to cut back on its deficit as prices for things go up (instead of saying: "look prices for X went up 10%, we need to increase the budget 10%") then hyperinflation will not happen.

If, on the other hand, the USG will continually emit more dollars at that time to make up for the purchasing power loss, then the confidence in the dollar will erode even more, prices will go up again and the USG is faced with the same dilemma: increase spending to get what it needs or stop. Likely answer as a currency issuer: increase spending to get what it needs.

This is the hyper-inflationary feedback loop. Without it you just get a one-time devaluation of the currency. With it you get hyperinflation. (see FOFOA quote about Iceland above)

Politically speaking, it will be almost impossible to deny increasing spending as that is the easiest way to take instead of cutting benefits and programs.

That is why hyper-inflation is very likely but not guaranteed.

Aquilus

enough said...

Putin had stated that Snowden must stop "leaking" in order to get asylum but USA press is saying that YESTERDAY's release by the UK paper, The Guardian of X-KEYSCORE, the most invasive spying program in history. That hoovers up all data, email, internet searches, phone etc that can be retrieved by NSA middle managers and outside contractors without FISA order, violates that promise.....

In fact X KEYSCORE program was released by the Guardian on july 8......

http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/nsa-whistleblower-reveals-aussie-involvement-in-us-snoop-op-113070800273_1.html

ROW rebellion underway....

enough said...

FOFOA says that HI is a POLITICAL DECISION....

A little focus on the important issues of the day that pit the USA against rival powers combined with occasional discussion of the stresses showing in physical gold mkt might be worth some attention as opposed to purely theoretical conversations which dominate here.

It is the real world stresses that give us clues as to possible timing of Freegold......

The USA reaction to this issue could be important and then the ROW's response in turn.....

It is the ROW that funds USA military adventure with their support of the $IMF. It is in the ROW's strategic interests to pull the plug on USA imperial desires asap. I disagree that the ROW will just sit and wait, enabling the USA to fund it's empire aspirations indefinitely. Look how dangerous the USA has become because the ROW has supported $IMF this long.

now back to HI in the abstract.....

Michael H said...

Victor,

I am way behind on the comments but let me add something to your thoughts expressed here

Your summary on Europe's incentives:

I conclude that Europe would not want any devaluation of the dollar unless a currency switch by oil follows in short order. In particular, dollar HI with oil only available for dollars (at a rapidly increasing dollar oil price) would be a disaster for Europe.

Have you considered the effect of USD strengthening on Europe?

Assuming oil priced in USD remains constant in price, it would mean that oil in Euros is rising.

Any domestic industry whose inputs (besides oil) and products are priced in Euros would feel squeezed, as would the European people.

Exporters to the USD-zone would be somewhat insulated, but would it be enough to offset the domestic effects? Especially if the USD strengthened suddenly an significantly?

Unknown said...

Thanks Aquilus. The connection/trigger for US hyper-inflation, when the monetary inflation has largely already occurred, is what I was looking for. Your comment sent me searching the Another archive, and I had my mind re-blown by his knowledge. Everytime I walk the trail, I see new things. Thank you.

JR said...

Hi burningfiat,

#1 = holding euros > silver.

Why would GSR the explode when paper gold is collapsing?

And what is the rational for holding euros, other than the statement that he would rather? All he did was conflate the GSR after the transtion with the different time when paper gold is collapsing and go, see, silver sucks I want something else.

====================

#2 He seems to be arguing against someone who thinks silver is a long term SoV. That is not the point.

So HI happens, and people all dump their silver so the return on the silver isn't that great or is negative. So what? The idea is not to generate a return on silver, it is to have an asset to use to protect one's gold. I'll take a bath on my silver if it means I don't have to take a [much bigger] bath on my gold.

The big idea is holding assest to protect one's gold. Whether it is silver or another physcial item, one key idea is there are three phases:

now / paper gold collapsing / gold is revalued.

The middle phase of "paper gold collapsing" is what we are worried about. If the middle phase is short and easy, who cares about losing a small percentage on silver, because the gold more than makes up for it. But what would suck is to be stuck in the middle stage in need of soemthing, and when you look at what you have to offer, its decpriated fiat savings and gold that is trading at a paper price.

To me the end game is holding onto your gold until gold gets revalued. Every other issue is subordinate to that.



JR said...

Hi Polly Metallic,

One of the reason I changed my mind about silver is that there are too many "silver stackers" who have set aside pounds and pounds of silver waiting for it to zoom in value and change their lifestyles!

[...]

IMO you either want items that everyone needs and uses every day but may not have stored. That would be everything from food to coffee to shampoo and deodorant to toilet paper and laundry soap.


Exactly. The big idea is there is gold for the long term, and there are other things (preferably real goods) to help make sure you get there.

[JR]Maybe there is a role for silver and/or other real assets, certainly for the more risk averse among us. What do you think?

You point seems focused on silver, which may be my fault. My main goal is to address the idea that:

1) it all may not collapse as orderly as in other HIs with an external reference point and gold may not be revalued instaneously (at least not in your local area, especially in the USA), so

2) have some stuff to help you protect your gold.

I'm not arguing for owning silver exclusively or "putting all your eggs in one basket." I'm saying be prepared.


==============


And about the silver dumping and it collapsing in value. I'm adressing the middle phase when paper gold is collapsing and physicial is in hiding. Maybe that won't happen and gold gets revalued quickly. That's a win for me. I'll be plenty ahead on my gold revaluation so no sweat off my back.

But if it gold does go into hiding, why is everyone dumping silver? Many silverbugs see it as a gold v. silver issue. So if paper gold is collapsing/collapsed, wouldn't it look to a silverbug like they were right? That gold was not gonna be the winner?

It seems inconsistent to posit silver will be dumped and unwanted duing the middle stage when paper gold is collapsing/collapsed. It seems that would be the "last hurrah" for silver, when it looks like gold is not gonna be the one.

The early birds always tell me its always darkest before the dawn, and at that apparent time of gold's "darkest moment" before it gets revalued, why are we assuming silver stackers will be admitting their failure and dumping the AG in droves. Won't they be feeling the most validated in their view at this time (not realizing their ccomeuppance is just around the bend)?

JR said...

Hi Luke,

JR, given the option wouldn't you rather have eexcess gold protecting you gold rather than excess silver? Why not buy a 50g valcambi bar over $100 face of junk silver? It is not like the silver you buy now to "protect" your gold is free. You are buying it instead of gold. The question becomrs if you HAD to sell before the revaluation, why would silver be more valuable than gold?

Opportunity cost is the issue.

You are selling gold that is about to be recognized as many multiples more valuable than you can currently sell it for. So selling an asset a 50 times less (or whatever multipel you prefer) than its value is not as good of a deal as being able to hold onto that asset until the time when you can sell it for its true value.

Plus we are positing paper gold is collapsing, so you are talking about selling gold for way less than you potentially bought it for. If gold is collapsing I think that makes silver look better in comaprison, so I'm not as readily willing to assume silver will collapse too. I think we talking about silver's last hurrah.

The silver dumping happens in mass, IMO when Gold gets it sliftoff and silver is left in the aftermath.

A final quick idea, admitted paronia and all, is that all else equal, I'd rather keep my gold ownership of the down low. Because that's my prirority number one - getting my gold through this time and well into the future. They can't steal (regardless of why they would want to steal it) if they don't know I have it.

I own my gold for the long haul. I'm at heart a risk averse saver, not an investor. I'm not loking to dump my gold as soon as its revalued. So I'm in no hurry.

JR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JR said...

I assume others commented, I'll try to get back and respond in turn but I gotta go back to work.

Have a good day, and Happy Birthday Jerry!

burningfiat said...

JR,

For me the take-away from Jim's comments were:

Here's what I think will happen during hyperinflation. I think you guys will stop stackin' and you'll start sellin' because you will HAVE to. Now maybe YOU won't have to but there are PLENTY of silver stackers who will. And that's a problem, because not only have you guys stopped stacking (creating a supply overhang) but all that silver you were stackin' before is coming to market all at once exacerbating the problem! And there won't be any giants waiting in the wings to scoop it up either (unlike with gold). All you'll have is a weak bid from industry into an overwhelming sea of silver [supply].

Here he's talking about the same period as you, right?

So, at the exact time you would like silver to perform it doesn't, because there's only a weak bid on it. Industry or Giants will not bid for more silver than usual during this timeframe. Maybe the industrial bid will even shrink because of uncertain economic outlook. So overwhelming supply and weak bid equals low price, right?

The Euro? I believe the Euro will have some CB managers who'll try to keep it purchasing power stable measured in the everyday goods you'll need during this time. They may not succeed completely but I think it'll fare better than silver (in this crucial time frame)! #YMMV

Overall I think it can't hurt to diversify a bit for this period. Have a store of stuff you need/eat, local currency for rent and expenses and then for barter: Alcohol (important for the addicts), cigars, drugs, mushrooms, marihuana, friends, tools, bacon, ipads, condoms, Euros, fake IDs, tractor spare parts, Norwegian Kroners, diapers and yes maybe even some silver.

I agree with Aquilus that the number one asset you possess and should rely on should be your professional skills.

I'm also in the camp that thinks that the gold in hiding period will be short, so I'm really counting on using all of the above barter items myself sooner or later... ;)

Franco said...

Enough with the silver talk! Instead, look at the chart that Motley Fool posted. Unless the trend magically reverses and foreigners start increasing the rate of accumulation of US debt, then it's game over, and the only thing that remains to be seen is whether or not there will be trillion dollar notes to buy groceries.

michael3c2000 said...

Just found time to watch Freegoldtube's link to the Edwardo RT appearance. Thanks FGT and Edwardo- excellent, you lead off the show for good reason.
BTW, there's a complete GDP dissection after.
http://www.youtu.be/4YmNkDx4-NA

Bright aurum said...

@JR
Please think about that:
Change 'asset' with an 'item' you and the next guy/the neighbour needs/uses and you will get it right.
The only 'assets' that matter in HprI are those that generate fresh cash flow and you can very well nail that on the wall!
Cigarettes making machine, illegal booze home-brewing device, vegetables garden in the back yard - those are the assets that matter. To be able to enjoy things made by others you have to remain a super-producer in the HprI environment or have ITEMS others absolutely need. Sorry but silver doesn`t fit in.

Michael dV said...

bf
at the TOP of every preppers list should be canned bacon (not kidding)
http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/canned_meat_canned_chicken_canned_turkey_canned_beef.aspx?gclid=CLj-na723LgCFWQ6QgodQBQAew

I do personally attest to the quality and value. $14 may seem a bit stiff but when you are hunched over a small fire in your cave and all hope seems lost and you lust for one small pleasure...a can of Yoders will be there for you. I bought a few cases for me and my staff and they continually express their thanks. Not sure about the other canned meats.

Freegoldtube said...

Just for the record...

FGT contributed nothing to the RT interview of Edwardo. I just happened to beat everyone else to the punch in reposting it.

As for the content in the video, it was a nice ice-breaker. Perhaps if the video gets enough hits RT will do another one. I hope so.

Good job Edwardo and FOFOA for making it happen.

michael3c2000 said...

@ampmfix - Interesting comparisons. Thanks.
White powder gold, also known as monoatomic gold or high spin state gold and even "manna", gets no MSM press for it's too "exotic"?. I even forget that it exists, though it's hardly visible when it's shifting back and forth between dimensions. :)

Bright aurum said...

@ JR
Now I may have been a little harsh about silver in HprI scenario.
Here is a
form of it one can hold that I can see a tiny, tiny minority needs in order to do one of
those things.

Bright aurum said...

Or rather thislink.

AT said...

I was reminded again yesterday how much I appreciate this blog.

For many years I've known we were almost certainly headed for financial calamity. If you'd asked me 10 years ago, I would have said by the 2020s. The 2008 collapse, disregard for contracts and the rule of law, pervasive and unpunished corruption, and the exploding federal debt finally convinced me that it was time to start serious preparations last year because the collapse timeline has clearly accelerated. The final realization that things will not and cannot change without collapse came early last year when I read Gonzalo Lira's post Why Democracies Will Always Go Bankrupt. I've always been fond of reading and thinking about microeconomics, but I needed a much deeper understanding of macroeconimics and economic history. I've read all or parts of a couple dozen books and hundreds of magazine articles and blog posts. In all that time I've found only two writers (FOFOA and Chris Martenson) who, in my opinion, DID NOT seem to have at least one of the following serious deficiencies:

- one or more major blind spots where their theories did not match facts on the ground
- understood our problems but provided ridiculous "solutions"
- elided over key bits of missing logic to arrive at suspect conclusions
- were driven by ridiculous conspiracy theories
- were driven to grind ideological axes about what should be rather than what is

In short, I've had a hard time finding reading material for unprepared family members that I can unreservedly recommend for one reason or another. (Nor is FOFOA perfect in this regard; some of my potential readers simply do not have the time, interest, or intellectual capacity to slog through a FOFOA-length blog post. ;) )

Why was I reminded of this? Because yesterday I posted my first ever comment to Karl Denninger's blog (in response to his claim once again that the Fed MUST taper QE after the Fed announced once again that it WILL NOT). Here is my comment:

Yes, of course QE will be ending soon, Karl. Sure. At what point will you admit to being wrong about that?

I'm willing to bet you an ounce of gold that it never ends, or if it does end temporarily, it will be immediately resumed because of the Fed's inability to issue new debt.

I've been reading your site for several months now and while you are generally very specific in your explanations of how things work, your writing gets very hand-wavy and imprecise when you talk about why QE must end.

Is there a post where you spelled out your reasoning for this opinion coherently and comprehensively? Because from where I sit, this is one enormous blind spot in your otherwise soundly constructed view of the world.


Denninger's response:

Goodbye.

PS: Don't lie about how long you've been here and reading the site. If you think I can't verify your statements, you're wrong. I can, I do, and if I catch you lying in your FIRST POST your account goes "poof" faster than the fart I just let out of my butt.


For this simple comment, my user account and even IP address were completely blocked from his site--after he first edited his response to me a couple of times, then deleted both my comment and his response. (Incidentally, he is wrong about the duration of my readership--I've used about 5 different internet service providers in that time due to moving and other issues.)

And to think that some consider this blog to be populated by group-thinking cult members!?

So thanks again, FOFOA for the fine work you've done here and for not being psychotically insecure about your writings.

Time for another donation.

burningfiat said...

MdV, Nice! Canned Bacon! Sure seems delicious! Especially after consuming some shrooms and weed I would imagine!!!

Ashley, Damn too bad. I really like Denninger (subtracted his harsh attitude towards differing opinions)! But like FOFOA says, he and all the hardcore deflationists almost gets everything right, except this one huge blindspot...

AT said...

@burningfiat: It is too bad. I may still go back through Denninger's site and read everything he's written about QE ending over the past few years just to be sure my opinion of his arguments is fair. I consider this extremely important. When I make my pitch to family members I always tell them that if they don't believe me to watch the Fed's moves on QE, expect it to continue and even increase despite what the media says, and that if it ever comes to an end (and the ending sticks) they can assume I'm likely wrong about hyperinflation and collapse.

burningfiat said...

Ashley,

I tend to view it this way:
If the FED ends (or tapers) QE, the END is really close. It'll be a brief experiment that'll end in a few months when deflationary forces overwhelms government income until the point that printing has to let go of all restrictions to save .gov lifestyle! #HailMary #DeflationaryHeadFake #Denningers15MinFame

enough said...

WASHINGTON (AP) — State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf says an unspecified number of U.S. embassies and consulates around the globe will be closed Sunday due to security concerns

http://news.yahoo.com/us-embassies-close-sunday-over-security-201152873.html

Anonymous said...

@Aquilus

Excellent post, I agree that there will be little need for a SoV of any sort for most people ‘within’ a currency zone because they won’t have excess value to store. In fact they will likely sell what little gold or other lesser SoV they have at less than Freegold prices out of desperation. In addition, even those in the upper 9.99% will have most of their assets locked up within the paper system or worse will be Cyprused away. Those inside the zone that attempt to make a paper profit off of essentials will also come under the thumb of the government via price controls. Thus even local net producers that theoretical could have excess cash trying to find a SoV will also be in short supply. In short, don’t expect the ‘primary’ flood of excess cash trying to find a SoV to arise from those ‘within’ the currency zone, more on that later.

You can also count on the rationing of key strategic imports like oil along with the encouragement of domestic supplies. Since the US is net food exporter I could also see a two tier food pricing system developing that attempts the isolate the value food has in terms of dollars for export vs. the internal social cohesive prices. After all those EBT cards and other social programs form a very strong feedback loop via food. Basically farmers will be required to sell to the government first. Likewise the government will need to ration and direct critical imports need for food production and all other net exporting industries rather than for consumption by the common man. Think of an electronic version of rationing coupons like WW2. Something tells me that retired people traveling the US in RVs will not be as significant as it is now.

Regardless the US will still need to engage in trade at some level while also managing the inflow of hot money. Likewise the demand and employment picture in all nations that import and export to the US and others will also be significantly altered. In short a very chaotic environment is in store for ‘all’ nations post petro-dollar collapse as the free market takes hold after a 100 year hiatus under king dollar. Given how long it’s been since the world operated under free market and real capitalism principles (not to be confused with the existing kleptocracy order) it’s anyone’s guess where the natural equilibrium points are at this point. The notion that all the above will simply settle out after a few day revaluation of gold (as important as that is for long term stability) is not in cards.

Anonymous said...

In short the collapse of the petro-dollar system has significant differences in both the nature and scope from the typical local hyper-inflationary events (i.e. not just Argentina 2001 on steroids). Where it is fundamentally different is in the scope of the dollars that circulate ‘outside’ the borders of the US as the world’s reserve currency. It’s those foreign held dollars that a lowly shrimp living inside the debtor currency zone will have access to ‘provided’ three things happen.

One, you must have physical possession of a SoV that will be accepted as payment by creditor nations. Two, a person inside the debtor currency zone has an ‘immediate’ use for those dollars and values those dollars more than the acceptable SoV. Three, the exchange can’t be under any significant legal restriction on either side of the trade and is in fact encouraged (limited to no taxes) as a means of reducing the rate of inflation on critical goods within the currency zone (i.e. hot money inflows) while still enabling the inflow of strategic imports. Now some on this board see this as obvious, as do I, but then governments are notorious for doing incredible stupid things.

Anyway once/if they figure out the imperative of steering hot money away from essentials while ‘also’ maintaining strategic imports, I don’t think the US government or any debtor net importing nation will be too picky as to what that substance is, provided it doesn’t affect the social order in the short term or transfer nation sovereignty in a big way (land, core companies). The nation receiving the SoV will also place a premium on physical possession of that SoV over any other lesser SoV that must by their very nature reside within the border and laws of the debtor net importing nation.

Now Gold is the obvious/best choice but there is also another substance that has 4x the stock above ground along as gold with +60 year supply overhang as well. The fact that 15% of Gold is held by CB vs. 0% of this other substance may be important for initial market making (limited to 20% of their stock or say 3% of the gold above ground or 1 year of mining supply), but once this is in place, the market will ultimately decide what represents payment in full and at what price. I could easily see the pucker factor on an increasingly stratospheric price of gold pulling up other substances that share very similar qualities with gold.

Again the ‘market’ in concert with what nations feel is in their best interest and not the CBs will ultimately decide what SoVs flows and at what price. All it takes for a lowly commodity to become a SoV is a stroke of a pen that eliminates taxes on it. The free market is more than capable of handling it from there ‘with’ or ‘without’ the CB blessings.

enough said...

For our Aussie friends. Uncle Sam thanks you !!

More Snowden Revelations: Australia has FOUR U.S. Spy Sites-

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/487833/20130709/edward-snowden-australia-cyber-attack-spy.htm#.Ufrgw6vD-pp


From the brave souls at The Guardian:

Decision to grant whistleblower asylum is a humiliating rebuff that exposes the impotence of 21st-century US power

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/edward-snowden-gift-vladimir-putin

and today's NSA factoid:

"XKeyscore allowed US spies to monitor in real time the emails, web browsing, internet searches, social media use and almost all online activity.

It hinges on what was known as "hop" or "chain" analysis. When the NSA identified a suspect, it could look at that person's phone records and at the records of everyone that person called, everyone who called those people - and everyone who called those people. If the average person called 40 unique people, the analysis would allow the government to mine the records of 2.5 million Americans when investigating one suspected terrorist."

and as reported earlier, the existence of xkeyscore was first reported on july, 8, 2013

http://www.theage.com.au/world/snowden-reveals-australias-links-to-us-spy-web-20130708-2plyg.html

but RE reported the day before Snowden gets asylum.....

Fox News aug 1, 2013:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/01/nsa-under-fire-over-internet-data-project-as-lawmakers-renew-push-to-overhaul/#ixzz2alApUK5f


"The Guardian on Wednesday, citing documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, described a program known as XKeyscore, saying it allows a range of analysts to monitor everything from emails to browsing history to online chats."

just out:

WASHINGTON (AP) — State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf says an unspecified number of U.S. embassies and consulates around the globe will be closed Sunday due to security concerns

http://news.yahoo.com/us-embassies-close-sunday-over-security-201152873.html

6.3 tonnes evaporates from GLD

Giants ready to finally get off their asses?



byiamBYoung said...

@enough,

I'm with you on the wisdom of watching world events and using them to inform the pace of the coming transition. Here are a few hotspots I have seen lately:

US / China grappling over Afghanistan
US / China tension over China Seas Islands dispute with Japan
US / Russia tension over Syria
Not to mention Egypt

It's wise to be watching in our world of bubbles with so many needles flailing about. Things could go POP! in an instant.

Cheers

Jeff said...

Spaul,

Do you read the blog? The elite won't have their money 'locked up', the US isn't going to ration goods when they can simply outbid other buyers, and silver again...your writing shows a clear lack of understanding.

You remind me of a quote from a post you really should read; FOFOA's FOA on Hyperinflation.

FOA: Traveler, every time you bring another log to our "Gold Trail" fire, I pour gasoline on it and burn it before it becomes of use. But keep trying, sooner or later I'll run out of fuel. (smile)

Again, hyperinflation in our economy will (as I demonstrated in the beginning) begin with our government buying the debt from creditors and changing the terms of its payment for over leveraged citizens and businesses. Further, a rising price structure of an extreme nature, such as this, quickly raises all wages and income levels. Allowing everyone to service easily what seemed like a mountain of debt before. No different than looking back to when minimum wage was $1.00 and now is $5.00+/-. Only happening on a super accelerated scale."

Spaul, do yourself a favor and follow that up with Ball of Twine open Forum. Or just keep bringing those dusty logs and we'll keep pouring gasoline on them until you run out.

Knotty Pine said...

@Jeff

Great comment. A gem of a quote from FOA.

Bright aurum said...

Spaul,
Have you red the line here (in this blog) that the gold flows to where it is appreciated the most.
What happens to the US when 4x of 'that other commodity' tries to land on its shores?

Franco said...

Y'all are giving spaul67 too much grief. The guy is clearly not a troll, and he is taking the time to expound his viewpoint. Maybe he didn't read the blog, or maybe he read it but disagrees with some assumptions. Dissenting viewpoints are good, and should be welcomed, instead of "you're WRONG!!!". A/FOA seemed like they knew a lot of stuff that the rest of us common mortals were not privy to. Does that make them infallible? ANOTHER missing the boat on China showed that he was not all-knowing. I'm not trying to bash the A/FOA thesis, or to support spaul67's views; all I'm saying is that "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it". Yes, it is a likely scenario that we'll end up with trillion dollar notes to buy bread, but it's not a guaranteed outcome. Gold getting revalued by one or two orders of magnitude against everything else is also a likely outcome, but not 100% guaranteed. This blog would be a better place if y'all wouldn't pile up on any dissenting opinion. Rant over.

Anonymous said...

Freegold discussed on RT's Prime Interest yesterday, by Edward Moyer of Cambridge MA.
http://rt.com/shows/prime-interest/freegold-fed-gdp-economy-880/

Kinda unbelievable.

DP said...

+1 for you can't really complain about people not bringing substantive arguments and only offer them an ad-hominem attack or scatter-gun RTFB in return.

JR makes targeted responses with recommended reading look easy, but don't do the crime if you can't put in the time.

DP said...

Yeah, that's right - I just posted a link to a video in TheAngryGary's channel.

So what? It's mine and I'll wash it as fast as I like!!!

ampmfix said...

Country of the free!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYHpVi6lOXI

MatrixSentry said...

Franco, DP

Clearly Spaul is not a troll and as such is welcome to post his ideas. However, if he were to RTFB he would come to the conclusion that his ideas have been discussed exhaustively and ultimately rejected. He offers nothing new. So his posts become tedious. When that happens, certain readers become frustrated. Frustration can lead us to do say and do things we normally would not say or do.

I for one scroll past his postings related to silver. I think it is time better spent focusing on things I am unsure about. I put the silver to bed long ago. It will become apparent to me when and if he ever RTFB. At that point I might take a look at his silver ideas if they have changed in any fashion as a result.

I would urge everyone to avoid unnecessary snarkiness as much as possible. I do not consider the use of RTFB as catch all rejection. It is crystal clear to me when someone has or has not RTFB. I offer it as a solution to someone who wants to either clarify their own understanding of Freegold or to modify the Freegold thesis to better fit their view.



Sam said...

+1 matrix

DP said...

Don't get me wrong, I totally — like most people, I think — have no problem at all with snarkiness wrapped around a fair point. [Ed: NO! Really? ;D ]

I just find substance-free attacks unsatisfying. In either direction.

They don't do much to improve the image of this blog and our great community. It's a marketing fail.

MatrixSentry said...

DP,

It's a marketing fail.

Spot on.

ein anderer said...

Is it by accident that the PoG finds the same price, the third day in a row, at the same time? Likely. But it looks funny …

byiamBYoung said...

Interesting bit of hand wringing by Alaweed BIn Talal over the future of Saudi Oil exports:

Saudi billionaire prince Alwaleed bin Talal has warned global demand for the kingdom's oil is dropping

Cheers

Edwardo said...

I don't think The House of Saud needs to be overly concerned, but the rest of us probably do.

Here's a key bit of redaction:

It’s hard not to get caught up in the boom...The question is will these plays “fix” peak oil? The answer is no.

byiamBYoung said...

@Edwardo,

Interesting piece. I need to do a lot more reading about the shale oil picture to understand more fully, but I do see the recurring drumbeat that these are shallow discoveries that wane quickly. MOre reading will yield better understanding.

The angle I was most interested in is the Saudi perspective, and what moves that might compel.

If the Saudis believe that their Ace in the hole is threatened, might they make movements that would maximize their endgame position? And what might those moves be?

Kudos on the interview BTW. Nicely presented.

Cheers

byiamBYoung said...

@Edwardo,

More on the shale oil thing.Facts aside, the (powerful and omnipresent) media is trumpeting shale oil as a salvation.

LIke it or not, this media drives conventional wisdom.

Conventional wisdom leaks to influence international perceptions and behaviors.

There's that Saudi reaction concern, in a nutshell.

Cheers

Anonymous said...

Jeff said...
“Further, a rising price structure of an extreme nature, such as this, quickly raises all wages and income levels.”

100% wrong, in a classic hyper-inflation 101 social benefits won’t keep up and even those that manage somehow to hold on to their jobs will see progressively less purchasing power. Hence why nobody will have any excess cash seeking a SoV within the debtor currency zone. Every dollar you get is going to pay for the ever increasing price of essentials.

Governments typically react to this stress with price controls and even rationing but that just results in black markets where the price will be well above the ‘official’ government price.

Now some of the 0.01% Kleptocracy debt will be ‘cashed’ out as you say but the other 9.99% (i.e. Jumbo Paper Shrimp), 401K, pension funds, etc. will be locked deep down in the lower decks of the IMF Titanic. Basically a banking/market holiday. The doors will be unlocked once the ship hits bottom and the purchasing power of your paper assets are near zero. Sorry only so many life boats. The remaining 90% are either on the dole or live hand to mouth, nothing to lose thus nothing to steal.

The US government will also bypass the QE shell game and just switch to the direct emission of currency in order to maintain itself, but the last thing they want is competition from the 9.99% cashing out or a flood of all the excess currency swirling outside its borders attempting to buy stuff. So this is the primary dynamic ‘within’ the debtor currency zone.

The real action for gold holders is how does the US manage all the currency floating in one form or another outside its borders? The scale and scope of which will make this particular variant of a currency collapse a new chapter in human history. Now the US could impose strict capital controls to keep this hot money out but this would ‘also’ shutdown the import of goods critical for social order and starve industries of key imports so they can export. The globally distributed manufacturing system would come to grinding halt overnight. Almost nothing consisting of more than one part is made 100% within any country anymore. Most nations have an excess of something and a deficit of another. In short no nation or individual is an island. Thus I agree with FOFOA that something will need to be established rather quickly by the world community or bad situation will quickly become a dire one. Less than a month.

At the same time it’s safe to say that the current practice of accumulating excess dollars by US trading partners as a reserve will be over post petro-dollar. In fact the ongoing draw down of foreign held bonds is good indication of this just like GLD is for physical gold. They already have all the dollars they will ever want x100. What they will be on the hunt for is any globally recognized asset with legs within the debtor currency zone ASAP. Only some of those ‘above ground’ assets have limited to no impact on social cohesion and/or serious hyper-inflation feedback loops others not so much.

Now the best asset that fits this test and thus is ideal to reconcile trade imbalances going forward is gold, no question. There could be others as well, especially ones that exist in above ground quantities ‘well’ above a nations ‘near’ term consumption needs; the very definition of a giffen good BTW. As soon as anyone can explain (rather than just name call) why a 60 year supply of one substance is superior to a 60 year supply of another I’m all ears. And yes I have RTFB, many times thank you, I'm guess I'm just not a good cult type because nobody is perfect. Now, there are only ‘two’ substances I know of that have this characteristic, only two. Not one, not five, not ten, but two. I pretty much doubt that we have a 60 year above ground supply of wheat, copper, dog food, hammers, cat toys etc. Well maybe cat toys.

Anonymous said...

Regardless, the primary question in my mind is how to distinguish the dollars accumulated over short time spans in day to day trading, post petro-dollar, from the vast amounts of past accumulated petro-dollars?

Perhaps the US could issue a new dollar? A Freegold dollar that can be exchange for US gold for physical delivery at a floating market price vs. the old dollars that cannot? Thus creating a wall that enables net neutral trade to occur ‘immediately’ post petro-dollar ‘without’ releasing the tsunami of old dollars into the new trade arrangement and thereby bidding up prices within the debtor currency zone to socially destructive levels?

The old dollars could be find a market in gold but at a significantly higher $/oz. So say the market price of a Freegold dollar is $2,000/oz while the old dollar is running at $20,000/oz. Now the price dynamic of the freegold dollar would come from international trade (ie FOFOA 101). What would set the price of the old dollar in terms of gold would be the equilibrium formed between gold holders within a currency zone wishing to exchange gold for old dollars for the purpose of paying off old dollar debts (hand raised). Likewise on the other side of trade would be paper jumbo shrimp exchanging old dollars for gold attempting to move what wealth they still have into the new Freegold dollar system. Keep in mind that paying off a debt in the old dollar debt based dollar system destroys currency supply. So my guess is that the best gold to old dollar exchange rate will be in the front end. At some point though the US government would just set a forced conversion time and rate to clean up the remaining old dollars in exchange for freegold dollars. The again the US kleptocracy could pull a Cyprus on the Jumbo Paper shrimp so they won’t have a lot of old dollars to exchange.

However it happens I can’t see how it’s in the US government’s best interest to unleash a flood of cash from the 9.99%. Regardless of how it occurs I think a 90% haircut in terms of purchasing power of for the Jumbo paper shrimps is in store especially for debt instruments. In fact any debt instrument priced in old dollars, including public and private pension plans would basically be gone in terms of forward purchasing power with any residual value likely rolled into Social Security. Given that there is little that distinguishes an SS IOU from a UST IOU the switch would just be law change followed by a book entry. Basically a New Deal 2.0 will be in store for the 90%.

The young to midlife 9.99% in turn will be busy re-accumulating capital in the form of freegold and other assets forever forsaking IOUs of any second party until a new generation that missed what we are about to experience comes about. The 0.01% will be busy adding back over the next 100 years all the fraud features that collapsed the system the last time around. The cycle begins anew.

In this scenario the US trade deficit would be zero (after accounting for freegold flow), debt would also be zero; but in exchange the US government would be forced live within only what it can ‘directly’ tax, and would be unable to issue debt or currency in excess of population and economic growth because the Freegold dollar would now reduce the purchasing power of those new units.

Further net producers going forward would have a SoV that resides ‘outside’ the US government’s ability to tax unlike now where all assets including gold are taxed. This would produce limited government, enable true private capital accumulation and free markets gradually restoring productivity and affluence worldwide that will well exceeding levels we have today.

Bright aurum said...

@ spaul67
There are some good points in what have you written but they are commingled with some 'substance' ;-) that I personally do not approve of. So, it is unclear whether you want to start a discussion and the topic of it. Anyway,a lot of deconstruction of your arguments must come first thus the wheat gets separated from the grass. What comes quickly to mind is that exporting companies will not exchange all their foreign currency into depreciating USD and can transfer some of this foreign currency to the essential importers(being their suppliers in the unfinished products chain). Lifestyles will get crushed inevitably. Some folks will still be much better off than others based on the new 'meritocratic' economic system where the bill is not paid by others(ROW) accumulating USD denominated promises. HprI or not when someone produces sth. of value out of her/his hands he/she 'normally' is entitled to swap that value for the things needed. USGov. will try to meddle in the process playing the middle man (trying to coNtroll the MoE) and skimming some of this hard produced value if allowed to. How long will this continue ...

Bright aurum said...

@ spaul67
A two-tier dollar system - fuggetaboutit. The Russians have tried it with their export rouble and it ultimately failed for the same reasons. Once you try to import more goodies than you export with this 'new dollar' it will go hyper in no time. So it will be better to balance-trade with the old one until the external obligation are printed away (bleeding out ever higher priced gold in the process) and only then, when trade balance is achieved to try and introduce the new dollar.

Anonymous said...

@Bright aurum

I have no doubt that some of my ideas are not unique or even correct. A feature I assign to all others that may have strongly held beliefs of one sort or another (pardon the pun). That is why I’m unimpressed by those that counter my ideas with insults and frankly zealot like RTFB answers. At times I expect that some of you may be thinking of turning Another’s and FOFOA writings into an Old and New Testament complete with books, chapters and verse numbers. We all interpret the world through the lens of our personal experiences and that which we can glean over a lifetime of learning from others.

Layered on top of that is that the best laid plans on mice or men can easily come crashing down in the face of human anger, greed and fear. So while Freegold may be a good even world saving idea it doesn’t necessarily make it inevitable. Just a basic understanding of game theory will tell us that.

Now while the US has clearly received a number of benefits by being the world reserve currency (i.e. exchanging paper for real goods) it has also paid a price in a number of areas not the least of which is the hollowing out of our industrial base and the development of a significant unemployed class. The US has also risked nuclear annihilation and carried the significant burden of protecting the modern world against all forms of tyranny for the last 100 years. In fact our excess military expenses and national debt are pretty much one in the same. I would also remind everyone that if in 1936 you would have told the world the US would be 50% of the GDP hold 80% of the world’s gold and become a super power 10x the next nearest nation of the world less than ten years later they would have rightly laughed at you.

America will rise again ‘if’ it re-embraces the principles of limited representative government and free market capitalism. A path towards greatness available to any nation on Earth.

Anonymous said...

Concerning the two tier dollar system, we had something very similar with Bretton Woods when gold was illegal for US citizens to hold. Basically a domestic dollar and an international gold exchangeable dollar. The only difference is that rather than using a fixed exchange rate it would be a market based rate and eventually their would be no distinction between domestic and international dollars once the old dollars were liquidated and true freegold in place. Any currency so designed (i.e. the Euro) would work. In fact all nations that want to engage in two way free trade need to do the same thing, a free flow of local currency and ‘physical’ gold at local gold market prices.

Now on the road to arriving at this point I don’t think it will be in the best interest of US government to allow a flood of old dollars to just be randomly unleashed onto its economy post petro dollar collapse regardless of whether they currently reside inside or outside our borders. Now I fully understand that gold priced at a sufficiently high price could absorb all of this. So could moon dust that the US has near monopoly on. My point is that after experiencing a Tech, Housing, and soon to be Bond bubble collapse it’s going to be awful hard to convince people with all this excess currency to funnel it all into gold now running at say $50K/oz. It won’t take a big leap of imagination to think gold is just the next bubble like all the rest. A good deal of this excess currency, if allowed to be unleashed into the US domestic economy, will also bleed into other lesser SoV that aren’t gold; some of which are critical to maintaining social stability and sovereignty.

So by locking down and walling off these excess old dollars and switching to a new freegold dollar you can create a more gradually process of unwinding the excesses that has built up over the last 100 years.

Now if a +billion people want to starve they can forgo trading with the US under these new going forward freegold dollar terms. The US as a result will need to endure the significant pain of immediately cutting its foreign oil consumption significantly among other things. Pain for everyone. My guess is that the world will ‘hopefully’ recognize that there is plenty of blame to go around for the current situation and lots of pain as well if we don’t work together on an improved means of reconciling trade imbalances that naturally arise by using gold as means of accounting for this imbalance will providing ever increasing pressure on reversing any imbalance over time. This same dynamic within a nations borders would also prevent the incredible social imbalances where an ever shrinking portion of true net producers are basically turned into slaves of those displaced by the games other nations play leaching away jobs. We have plenty of people willing and able to reverse the trade flows (i.e. the US is now net producer) if the conditions allow it right now.

Anyway, I really like Freegold but the dynamics of how we get from here to there in as least a disruptive approach as possible is something the concerns me greatly.

So for those of the “me Tarzan I like gold, you are fool who don’t just echo this to me Tarzan, me Tarzan put finger in ear” go ahead and ignore my posts, I can’t stop you anyway nor do I really care.

But for those that are seeking a broader interchange of Freegold beyond just the basics and exploring how it may ultimately interact with the real world of irrational humans I very much enjoy the discussion. Specifically I’m interested in policies that will facilitate the transition while ‘also’ maintaining world social order.

Bright aurum said...

@ spaul67
'...At times I expect that some of you may be thinking of turning Another’s and FOFOA writings into an Old and New Testament complete with books, chapters and verse numbers...'
Time will prove all things. I have no problem with the Bible its chapters and verse numbers etc.. Nothing else has come even close to it in respect to moral guidance and direction in life.
Another and FO/FOA have done a really marvellous job in expanding my horizon and way of thinking about the economy and the human relations in general! This is something you cannot learn in the universities, in fact here in this blog I learned much more than before and I gained needed confidence and answers to questions nobody else could answer in a meaningful way.

enough said...

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard- The Telegraph
7:34PM BST 01 Aug 2013

Top Fed economist slams 'incoherent' ECB

The US Federal Reserve has launched a blistering attack on the European Central Bank, calling for quantitative easing across the board to lift the eurozone fully out of its slump

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10217395/Top-Fed-economist-slams-incoherent-ECB.html

Michael dV said...

Yes BA
It was after reading Another that I understood Obama's "spread some of that around' comment to Joe the Plumber in the 08 campaign. The 'hungry collective' feels no remorse in demanding the production of individuals at the point of a pistol if needed.
Before Another I though that would be rare and only in Communist countries. Now I see that it is inherent in a large minority (if not out right majority) of humans. Envy seems to be the driving factor. If someone has more then they should share. It does not matter how hard the work to earn it was nor what good purpose the producer would put it to. Many of our brethren simply see their existence as enough to warrant an equal distribution. It is the populace who drive the politicians to strip wealth from the productive. It is only the super producers who can shield themselves from the rapacious forces. The middle class and the merely wealthy themselves the victims of 'fairness.' If you cannot afford your own politician you will need a way to hide what you have. Those who do control the political process and do have their own politician still have to appear charitable to gain the affection of the masses.
It is a shame but Another laid it out pretty clearly (FOA as well with his discussion about tribes).
It has really made me look at democracy in a different way. Ben Franklin's comments about 'a republic if you can keep it' seem much more relevant now than the did 10 years ago. It seemed to me that America was different. Now, while I still see a lot to like in the USA, I also see many of the forces at work in other countries. all this revealed by the passing of the Exorbitant Privilege.
Time really will tell. I have my predictions and worries and plans but I now see my fellow countrymen as a lot more susceptible to making a claim on me that I did before.
I was in Pakistan for a few months in the mid 80s. A local pointed to a very average looking home and told me the owner had great wealth hidden inside. No one flaunted wealth there because it only invited envy and the natural consequences of that vice.

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